Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[RuamRudy]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

I hope that most of the voters will err on the side of caution - better the devil you know, and so forth.

Notwithstanding that the Scots are as British as anyone...

SC

The devil we know is corrupt and self serving. Nothing has improved in Westminster over the years - our current government AND opposition are amongst the worst I can recall, and the sense of outrage on the streets has fallen to a whimper as people are struggling to get by.

Laws are being drafted on frequent basis, designed to further penetrate into our lives and spot potential dissent so it can be nipped in the bud long before it has the chance to ferment into something threatening to the status quo. People who object to the government are being branded as terrorists and their lives destroyed simply because they do not toe the line. That is the what we have now, and the future is going to get worse unless we stop it.

I am sorry that rUK would need to take up the challenge alone, but the people of Scotland have an opportunity to walk away from that and build something better. Of course nothing is guaranteed on that road, but the rejection of independence guarantees more of the same and worse.

[StreetCowboy]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

I hope that most of the voters will err on the side of caution - better the devil you know, and so forth.

Notwithstanding that the Scots are as British as anyone...

SC

The devil we know is corrupt and self serving. Nothing has improved in Westminster over the years - our current government AND opposition are amongst the worst I can recall, and the sense of outrage on the streets has fallen to a whimper as people are struggling to get by.

Laws are being drafted on frequent basis, designed to further penetrate into our lives and spot potential dissent so it can be nipped in the bud long before it has the chance to ferment into something threatening to the status quo. People who object to the government are being branded as terrorists and their lives destroyed simply because they do not toe the line. That is the what we have now, and the future is going to get worse unless we stop it.

I am sorry that rUK would need to take up the challenge alone, but the people of Scotland have an opportunity to walk away from that and build something better. Of course nothing is guaranteed on that road, but the rejection of independence guarantees more of the same and worse.

So to be clear, you view independence as an alternative way of getting the government you want, as an alternative to improving the democratic process in Westminster?

SC

[RuamRudy]

So to be clear, you view independence as an alternative way of getting the government you want, as an alternative to improving the democratic process in Westminster?

SC

Pretty much so - Labour have become the Tories with a fake red cape, Lib Dems have become the Tories' apologists, the Tories are trying to become UKIP; who do you see who genuinely gives you hope for constructive, positive change?

[phuketjock]

Where did I suggest that he was a spokesman for anyone? You really must stop editorialising others' comments for effect, or at least be a bit more subtle with it.

The implication in the original posting of the clip by Wigan and your crowing about it was clear. Her is an ex minister using the word 'scare' so it must be true.

You second sentence is typical of Wigan; no answer, so through in an insult. I thought better of you; please don't descend to that level.

What I clearly implied was that this man has huge political experience, and he understands how governments operate as well as the most qualified of observers. I concluded by saying that I would believe him before I believed you. I still feel that way.

Whom you believe is up to you.

But as he speaks neither for Better Together nor the government to take his use of the word 'scare' as proof of scaremongering by either is a desperate ploy, unworthy of you.

It is very tiresome, yet you use this defence so often - nothing I wrote was insulting but, once again, you generate something from nothing. You took my post and from it summarised thus, "to try and suggest that he speaks for the government is utterly ridiculous." At no point did I make any such assertion. So you editorialised my post to create drama and mock outrage from nothing. To cap it all, you put on your patronising cap with, "I thought better of you". Writing such drivel does not make you right, it makes you a bore.

Nice one RR.

[StreetCowboy]

So to be clear, you view independence as an alternative way of getting the government you want, as an alternative to improving the democratic process in Westminster?

SC

Pretty much so - Labour have become the Tories with a fake red cape, Lib Dems have become the Tories' apologists, the Tories are trying to become UKIP; who do you see who genuinely gives you hope for constructive, positive change?

According to that poll that someone else presented, the Liberal Democrats agree with my views the most closely, then the Tories, and then Labour.

I thought your complain twas not so much about the policies of the parties, but rather the integrity and moral rectitude or otherwise of the politicians.

SC

[wigantojapan]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

You make a fair point but where would you draw the line, and what ratio of Yes / No voters would be acceptable to permit secession?

Rather than focusing on split of opinion, I think more important is the push to make sure as many voters as possible are in full possession of the facts, and not just bombarded by propaganda and lies, such that they can make an informed decision.

I appreciate that, at this point, I am opening myself up to attack from those who are convinced that not a single word of truth comes from the Yes campaign, and the No campaign speaks nothing but the gospel truth, so, for the record, as I stated in an earlier post, I do not believe that the campaigning seen to date would impress any arbiter of perfect information, but I do believe that Project Fear is a genuine thing, and that, in the future, on a Yes vote, people will look at Darling and co with a sense of disgust that they tried to win the debate with lies.

Unfortunately we went on and on about the unfairness of the 1979 referendum, which required 40% to vote in favour of devolution, so such a rule was unlikely to be applied again. I just hope that there is a good turn-out for the referendum, and that the result is not close, for the sake of the future

SC

seemed to recall that the 40% vote in favour came into play after the vote was in and dead people counted as a no vote

Yes 1,230,937 (51.6%) No 1,153, 502 (48.4%) Rejected ballot papers 3,133 Electorate 3, 747,112 Turnout 63.6%

[7by7]

There are fixed land border check points between the RoI and Northern Ireland,

Where are these located ?

From Para 6 of this joint statement from the Irish and UK governments.

Operation Gull, a UK and Ireland initiative operating on both sides of the land border, and the creation of an Immigration Unit in Dundalk by An Garda Síochána have been highly successful in curbing illegal migration between Ireland and Great Britain through Northern Ireland. Furthermore, a range of joint operations involving relevant immigration personnel from both jurisdictions and the investigative division of the Irish Department of Social Protection have also been very successful as a result of detections flowing from Operation Gull.

Nationals of either country travelling between the UK and RoI do not need to have their passport, but do need to be able to prove their nationality and so right to travel from one country to the other if required to do so.

Other EEA nationals need either their passport or national identity card.

All others need their passport and, if one is required, the appropriate visa.

This is the case whether travelling by land, sea or air.

If an independent Scotland joins the CTA I can see no reason why the above should not apply to people travelling between Scotland and the UK or Scotland and the RoI.

But what if it doesn't? What if it joins Schengen instead; which, like adopting the Euro, could be a pre condition of joining the EU.

The main reason why Ireland did not join Schengen was because it "would not be in the interest of Ireland to have a situation where the common travel area with Britain would be ended and Ireland would impose both exit and entry controls on persons travelling between here and Britain and, in addition, on the land frontier" (Dáil Éireann - Volume 450 - 14 March, 1995 Written Answers. - EU Border Controls.)

So, the post independence border situation is obvious to anyone who has even the slightest knowledge of how immigration controls work; with three options.

1. An independent Scotland in the CTA; very few fixed land border controls but mobile spot checks as per the land border between NI and RoI.
2. Independent Scotland does not join the CTA but joins Schengen; full land border controls as per those between other Schengen countries sharing a land border with non Schengen countries.
3. Independent Scotland joins neither; full land border controls as per many countries worldwide who share a land border.

How could it be otherwise?

Edited May 24, 2014 by 7by7

[transam]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

As yet, no real answers to my question..........

[7by7]

clear enough for you yes bashers about when Salmond will call an election

Without a link to the source, it means nothing.

If it is an official SNP poster, I would not be surprised if, come 2016, Salmond finds a reason why he cannot call an election just yet!

If it's not from the SNP, it's worthless.

Strange that none of you are confident enough about this to have accepted my £50 bet!

[RuamRudy]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

As yet, no real answers to my question..........

Your question was how the 45% would feel should independence prove to be a catastrophic error. That is an unanswerable question. How would you suggest it be answered?

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[transam]

How the voting thing % wise will work I don't know, but imagine the YES get it 55/45 and the idea turns out to be a complete cock-up for Scotland.

How are the 45% going to feel, how will they react down the line.............?

For a serious Scotland move the vote should be near unanimous in my opinion......

As yet, no real answers to my question..........

Your question was how the 45% would feel should independence prove to be a catastrophic error. That is an unanswerable question. How would you suggest it be answered?

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I am not a Scot, so I don't know. BUT, have been reading this topic a lot and there doesn't seem to be a thought for the no guys and gals from a couple of posters that are telling others they soon will be millionaires.....

So, you are a Scot, tell me your thoughts if it goes tits up.........

[wigantojapan]

clear enough for you yes bashers about when Salmond will call an election

Without a link to the source, it means nothing.

If it is an official SNP poster, I would not be surprised if, come 2016, Salmond finds a reason why he cannot call an election just yet!

If it's not from the SNP, it's worthless.

Strange that none of you are confident enough about this to have accepted my £50 bet!

and you are not confident enough to take up my kind offer of meeting you in the flesh to discuss the questions.

Why it it worthless.You seemed to have difficulty in knowing when the election was to be held,,so now you know,,as you yourself have confirmed,by writing the 2016 date.

you also seem unable to shake off your believe that the yes vote is a vote for the SNP...

It will be in the case of a yes vote, the Unionists who will hold up the process ,if anyone is going to do it.it will be them Cameron ,Farange and the likes.

now care to give,your opinion about the NHs video which is being shown throughout cinemas in Scotland,as posted earlier

[7by7]

The Independence referendum is a vote on Scotland’s potential and the benefits of controlling our own affairs. It is also a vote on Westminster’s record. When we examine that record, we find that Westminster isn’t working. It isn’t working economically. It isn’t working to build a fair society. It isn’t working to build a safer world. Spin doctors in London plan to commission 13 reports to stop Independence. They hope to make people feel uncertain and afraid. The reality is that many serious problems already exist within the UK – and Westminster is failing to address them.

Here are 13 reasons why Westminster has failed:

- See more at: http://nationalcollective.com/2012/12/16/unlucky-for-some-13-westminster-failures/#sthash.CbA5Fp80.dpuf

No it isn't. It's a vote on whether we want to break up our country, and split Scotland off from the rest of the nation.

SC

Dear oh dear, what nonsense is this now?

When did the UK become a nation?

As far as I am aware the United Kingdom is and always has been a union of three countries and

N Ireland.

If you come from the UK you are British by geographical location but your nationality is Scottish,

English, Welsh or Northern Irish.

The United Kingdom is not, never has been, and never will be a nation, and it is my sincere hope

that after September it will be one nation less than it is now!!!!

Dear, oh dear!

Even after this was fully explained a few days ago, you still don't get it!

The UK became a nation in 1707 with the Act of Union.

It was enlarged with the addition of the whole of Ireland in 1800, and reduced when what is now the RoI left in 1922.

The international community and international law and international institutions recognise the UK, not the four countries which constitute the union.

You do not have Scottish nationality, I do not have English nationality. We both have British nationality.

You do not have a Scottish passport, I do not have an English passport. We both have British passports.

Were you to get into trouble of some sort in Phuket, it is not to the Scottish embassy you would turn to for assistance; because there isn't one. It would be to the British embassy.

As far as I am aware, the only international organisations which consider the four countries which currently constitute the UK to be separate nations are

• FIFA
• the IRB
• the ICC
• the Commonwealth Games Federation.

Can you add anymore? Especially political organisations as these four are all sporting ones.

[RuamRudy]

According to that poll that someone else presented, the Liberal Democrats agree with my views the most closely, then the Tories, and then Labour.

I thought your complain twas not so much about the policies of the parties, but rather the integrity and moral rectitude or otherwise of the politicians.

SC

What I meant was that they are all as bad as each other - and none appear to recognise the public's revulsion at the behaviour of our politicians, nor offer credible ways to overhaul the system by any meaningful measure.

[transam]

According to that poll that someone else presented, the Liberal Democrats agree with my views the most closely, then the Tories, and then Labour.

I thought your complain twas not so much about the policies of the parties, but rather the integrity and moral rectitude or otherwise of the politicians.

SC

What I meant was that they are all as bad as each other - and none appear to recognise the public's revulsion at the behaviour of our politicians, nor offer credible ways to overhaul the system by any meaningful measure.

So Scots ones will miraculously be different..............?

[RuamRudy]

I am not a Scot, so I don't know. BUT, have been reading this topic a lot and there doesn't seem to be a thought for the no guys and gals from a couple of posters that are telling others they soon will be millionaires.....

So, you are a Scot, tell me your thoughts if it goes tits up.........

How did I feel as a person who, for the 25 or so years I was living and ultimately working in the UK but having never experienced rule by a government that I voted for? Well, of course I was unhappy but that is democracy.

If the No vote prevails by a slim margin, how will the Yes supporters feel should the current Westminster administration continue to punish the poor for the excesses of the rich etc etc?

[7by7]

Why it it ( Yes 2016 election poster)worthless.You seemed to have difficulty in knowing when the election was to be held,,so now you know,,as you yourself have confirmed,by writing the 2016 date.

Without knowing the source of the poster, how can we judge it's worth. You could have made it up yourself for all we know!

The projected date of the election is 2016; we will have to wait and see if it actually happens.

you also seem unable to shake off your believe that the yes vote is a vote for the SNP...

Wrong; again.

The SNP are currently in power in Scotland and will remain so until an election is called. After that; who knows.

It will be in the case of a yes vote, the Unionists who will hold up the process ,if anyone is going to do it.it will be them Cameron ,Farange and the likes.

How will the unionists, by whom I surmise you mean the UK government, hold up the process?

By not submitting to all of the demands of an independent Scottish government?

As usual, a Yes supporter who thinks that they will get everything that they want from the post independence negotiations; and will blame the Bastard English if they don't!

Who is Farange? If you mean Farage, there is every chance that Salmond will be the first leader of an independent Scotland; non at all that Farage will ever be more than the leader of a minority party which does well in local elections, but fails miserably in general ones.

now care to give,your opinion about the NHs video which is being shown throughout cinemas in Scotland,as posted earlier

Working my way through your posts, old boy; give me a chance to get to it.

You post so many links and cut and paste jobs, it's difficult sorting the wheat from the chaff.

[RuamRudy]

So Scots ones will miraculously be different..............?

We are, for the most, starting with a fresh sheet of paper. Is it guaranteed that we won't end up with cronyism, quangoes and corruption? Of course not, but we already have that in Westminster so if we can start afresh with the possibility of eradicating it, then I, for one, see that as chance I would not want to miss.

[transam]

I am not a Scot, so I don't know. BUT, have been reading this topic a lot and there doesn't seem to be a thought for the no guys and gals from a couple of posters that are telling others they soon will be millionaires.....

So, you are a Scot, tell me your thoughts if it goes tits up.........

How did I feel as a person who, for the 25 or so years I was living and ultimately working in the UK but having never experienced rule by a government that I voted for? Well, of course I was unhappy but that is democracy.

If the No vote prevails by a slim margin, how will the Yes supporters feel should the current Westminster administration continue to punish the poor for the excesses of the rich etc etc?

Why were you working in the UK...?

Why not Scotland............?

[RuamRudy]

I am not a Scot, so I don't know. BUT, have been reading this topic a lot and there doesn't seem to be a thought for the no guys and gals from a couple of posters that are telling others they soon will be millionaires.....

So, you are a Scot, tell me your thoughts if it goes tits up.........

How did I feel as a person who, for the 25 or so years I was living and ultimately working in the UK but having never experienced rule by a government that I voted for? Well, of course I was unhappy but that is democracy.

If the No vote prevails by a slim margin, how will the Yes supporters feel should the current Westminster administration continue to punish the poor for the excesses of the rich etc etc?

Why were you working in the UK...?

Why not Scotland............?

Because we haven't achieved independence yet. Therefore, my passport states that I am a citizen of the UK.

[wigantojapan]

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DgWlnk75CTzo&ei=Ql6AU6O7C4TK0AWNj4GwBA&usg=AFQjCNHAhkIKPtBAzJiYimyNTvxOo5J4rA&sig2=7z8LNhvXBf9MzS4uUooR2w&bvm=bv.67720277,d.d2k

[transam]

I am not a Scot, so I don't know. BUT, have been reading this topic a lot and there doesn't seem to be a thought for the no guys and gals from a couple of posters that are telling others they soon will be millionaires.....

So, you are a Scot, tell me your thoughts if it goes tits up.........

How did I feel as a person who, for the 25 or so years I was living and ultimately working in the UK but having never experienced rule by a government that I voted for? Well, of course I was unhappy but that is democracy.

If the No vote prevails by a slim margin, how will the Yes supporters feel should the current Westminster administration continue to punish the poor for the excesses of the rich etc etc?

Why were you working in the UK...?

Why not Scotland............?

Because we haven't achieved independence yet. Therefore, my passport states that I am a citizen of the UK.

Are you saying you worked in Scotland for 25 years or England, Wales, Cornwall.?

[wigantojapan]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10372011_10152397069432731_2448812596140571934_n.jpg

[transam]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10372011_10152397069432731_2448812596140571934_n.jpg

Hope she had a safe landing.............

[7by7]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/liars-plague-our-land/

Spending on NHS Scotland is determined solely by the Scottish Government, which allocates resources to it from its budget as it sees fit, with no input from WestminsterPolitical independence would therefore change absolutely nothing about the relationship between four services which are already independent. The mechanisms governing cross-border treatment and funding already exist and are used daily, and patients are further protected by the European Health Insurance Card scheme which ensures reciprocal treatment in any states in the European Economic Area.

We’re sure that “Vote No Borders” already know all this, but have made the decision to cynically take advantage of the fact that a great many Scots don’t in order to frighten them with the false prospect that they or their loved ones might suffer as a result of Scotland voting to run its own affairs.

(Which is presumably also why comments are disabled on all their YouTube videos, lest anyone want to let viewers know the truth.)

The author of this piece, and you, seem to have little or no understanding of how the system works.

After all, the Yes campaign never cherry pick or twist facts to suit their argument!

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

But someone from another country, even another EEA one, cannot, as the piece suggests, simply waltz into the UK and receive treatment.

Yes, reciprocal arrangements exist between the UK and other countries; but these cover visitors to the UK, not nationals of those countries who travel to the UK specifically for free NHS treatment.

Similar with the EHIC. Although valid for 5 years, it exists to cover EEA and Swiss citizens whilst travelling or living in other EEA states or Switzerland.

The EHIC does not cover people who travel to another EEA state specifically to obtain medical treatment.

So, it's wingsoverscotland who are twisting facts and dealing out misinformation on this!

Not for the first time; and it wont be the last.

[RuamRudy]

Are you saying you worked in Scotland for 25 years or England, Wales, Cornwall.?

Is this relevant?

[transam]

Are you saying you worked in Scotland for 25 years or England, Wales, Cornwall.?

Is this relevant?

Yes, to me it is so I can respond.......

[RuamRudy]

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

Huh? Is that true? So the NHS 'postcode lottery' is a lie? But the BBC said it exists - and you told me that they are impartial! http://www.bbc.com/news/health-21703667

[wigantojapan]

As usual, a Yes supporter who thinks that they will get everything that they want from the post independence negotiations; and will blame the Bastard English if they don't!

As usual you dont even need to rattle our English friends a little bit before Uk negotiations become English,,,but we all know that is how they have been brainwashed in England to believe,,but,some try and cover it up, unsuccessfully, by spouting on about only no one nation the UK and Brutishness. in the same breath as they squeeze out the England word in the name of political correctness.

Again it is only yourself and a few other people on here who claim that Scotland will get everything.

Its an negotiation,,,,that what it means a negotiation

,We all know that the British/.English are used to bullying,killing, seizing other people land and property in their terms of negotiation and that is when they did negotiate,,most of the time they just stormed in,,,,but this time they really have met their match.

oops and in case it has slipped your mind,,it will be an international team of negotiators ,, not just one man and his dog

[transam]

NHS providers in the UK are all linked because the UK is all one country; regardless of who controls a particular local NHS budget; as the Scottish Parliament does with the Scottish NHS via the grant it receives from Westminster.

So, if someone from one part of the UK needs treatment in another, they get it.

Huh? Is that true? So the NHS 'postcode lottery' is a lie? But the BBC said it exists - and you told me that they are impartial! http://www.bbc.com/news/health-21703667

Rubbish. I read how the NHS takes care of folk in remote areas of Scotland, helicopters at the ready too if needed............