Thailand's police chief admits 'men in black' are police

[Robby nz]

I guess it's plausible that a police unknowingly fired live ammunition instead of rubber bullets, and that the policeman got caught in the line of fire. If he was shot by friendly fire, I very much doubt it was intentional as the location of the firing can be traced back to their position. And as Emptyset pointed out, the location of the two sites makes it very unrealistic.

Impossible, they are fired from completely different weapons.

Live bullets (as you want to call them) are fired from rifles or hand guns and rubber bullets are fired from pump action shotguns

It is possible to shoot bird shot, buck shot or rifled slugs from shotguns but that is not what police or protesters were hit by.

[Curt1591]

What did anyone expect? Ninjas? Police, exactly where they should have been. The question is, did they do anything wrong?

No, the question is why the government didn't admit it right away but tried to blame the demonstrants.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

But, to this day, we are supposed to believe that the MIBs, such as the one's on the BTS tracks, were ninjas!

[Emptyset]

A rare moment of honesty, from the RTP, perhaps his investigation will also reveal exactly what they were armed with, and which of their munitions were actually used ?

Rubber-bullets or real-bullets, flash-bangs or fire-crackers or gas-grenades, or what ?

And is this perhaps the reason, why there was the very-public-protest from hundreds of low-level policemen/women, concerning the failure to catch the culprits for their dead colleague ?

Rubber bullets, flash-bangs and gas grenades are very unlikely as they all are only effective at a short range. Looks like an ideal sniper position to me though.

I'm not optimistic that the whole truth will ever come out, but my money is on real bullets in high-powered rifles.

Rounds that killed protester/cop were both from hand guns.

[diceq]

It is incriminating because of his silence. It is secretive because they said no police were on any rooftops. They were wearing uniforms but they did make attempts to hide their presence, as did the minister who denied they were there.

Why should a government official explain what the police did?

Is this a serious question? I guess the values from my country don't apply everywhere - fair enough, there's good and bad everywhere.

What silence? The police just came out and commented on it. And who said that there were no police on any rooftops? You have a source for that? And how exactly did they make attempts to hide their presence in your opinion?

Yes that is a serious question. Police matters are handled by the police. That is the way it works in any European country.

[Pi Sek]

What did anyone expect? Ninjas? Police, exactly where they should have been. The question is, did they do anything wrong?

No, the question is why the government didn't admit it right away but tried to blame the demonstrants.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

But, to this day, we are supposed to believe that the MIBs, such as the one's on the BTS tracks, were ninjas!

The guy that claimed to train them said they were closer to Samurai.

[diceq]

Rounds that killed protester/cop were both from hand guns.

You have a source for that?

[Emptyset]

This is an extraordinary admission. It is unexpected to encounter this degree of candor from the police. But the admission has been made, and frankly really doesn't come as a surprise. It also lends additional light to the general campaign of anonymous attacks against the protesters. The edifice of this administration appears to be crumbling from within. It seems to be all catching up with it. As the registration period has now ended with well over 5 % of the constituencies uncontested, the election itself seems now pointless from even Pheu Thai's standpoint. It's time to turn down the pressure cooker, and allow reform discussions to take place in a manner that engages the input of all sectors of society in a peaceful manner.

Again, care to explain what's so extraordinary about admitting that the police had people stationed on rooftops?

The extraordinary thing is that they'd lie about it in the first place. Or at least Chalerm's denial. Forget if CAPO/Surapong offered any comment, or if they were just suspiciously silent. There was some absurd stuff coming out of CRES back in 2010, but I could see they actually had a reason to lie. In this case though, why didn't Chalerm just say, 'sure, we stationed police up there to prevent protesters breaking into the Labour Ministry' - and apparently the Labour Ministry did come under attack per The Nation witness quotes. Though whether that was before or after police up there fired tear gas down on the protesters I'm not sure.

Fact is, in this case it was actually easier for Chalerm to tell the truth. The truth would've served him and the government better than these stories which even many die hard PT supporters will find hard to believe. Yet he still chose to lie. Guess he doesn't know any other way.

[DocN]

Okay...so what we know is, that there have been police, stationed on rooftops and that people have been shot from high vantage points.

Is there a connection?

Possibly!

Is there any prove?

No- at least not yet!

....soooooooo....

[kingalfred]

What did anyone expect? Ninjas? Police, exactly where they should have been. The question is, did they do anything wrong?

In a country with an adequate investigation it could be determined what guns were used and from where when folk were shot .But I'm sure the BIB have covered their trail and any investigation will be cosmetic. Edited January 2, 2014 by kingalfred

[webfact]

Adul admits 'men in black' seen during clashes
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- National Police Chief Pol Gen Adul Saengsingkaew on Thursday admitted that the "men in black" seen during the fierce clashes between police and protesters in front of the Thai-Japanese Stadium on the first day of the party-list candidates registration are policemen.

The "men in black" referred by the police chief were those seen on the roof-top of the Labor Ministry's building near the candidacy registration venue in Din Daeng and the men in anti-riot uniforms seen smashing the windshields of a vehicle of a volunteer nurse parking near the stadium.

He vowed to investigate and bring them to justice.


-- The Nation 2014-01-02

[diceq]

In this case though, why didn't Chalerm just say, 'sure, we stationed police up there to prevent protesters breaking into the Labour Ministry' - and apparently the Labour Ministry did come under attack per The Nation witness quotes. Though whether that was before or after police up there fired tear gas down on the protesters I'm not sure.

Fact is, in this case it was actually easier for Chalerm to tell the truth. The truth would've served him and the government better than these stories which even many die hard PT supporters will find hard to believe. Yet he still chose to lie. Guess he doesn't know any other way.

The government didn't place any people on rooftops, the police did. The government officials have no information on police tactics unless they specifically call up the police chief and ask. I am not familiar with what Chalerm did say, I would be interested to see a quote of that. But in either case I doubt he was lying, just misinformed. Because as you correctly point out, he has nothing to gain by lying about it. Quite the opposite. If he did say that I very much doubt he saw the same video as I did.

[RubbaJohnny]

Will Yincluck and Chalerm now be indicted for murder

I think it's spelled

INVITED TO TENDER

They imagine after a whopping Feb 2 win the rice rail and Dawei gravy so thick enough for all and some dregs for the voters.

I think they are about to discover whenn the tinsel comes off the tree thee entirely different future.

[ManopY]

What do you think about this VDO => http://youtu.be/WvcO0qkOiI8

Especially from 0:45

Here the police is not on a roof!

[Pi Sek]

It is incriminating because of his silence. It is secretive because they said no police were on any rooftops. They were wearing uniforms but they did make attempts to hide their presence, as did the minister who denied they were there.

Why should a government official explain what the police did?

Is this a serious question? I guess the values from my country don't apply everywhere - fair enough, there's good and bad everywhere.

What silence? The police just came out and commented on it. And who said that there were no police on any rooftops? You have a source for that? And how exactly did they make attempts to hide their presence in your opinion?

Yes that is a serious question. Police matters are handled by the police. That is the way it works in any European country.

What silence? This thread didn't even mention the rooftop when the police were "gathering evidence" at the Labour Ministry. And, Chalerm came out on Friday or Saturday and said there weren't any police on the roof? No link for that - I saw it on the news. I'm sure it's available on the Internet too and maybe one of our information-gathering posters can find it for you if you don't have time.

What attempts to hide their presence? Crouching behind a wall in an elevated position?

When people are injured or especially if there are deaths involved, there is usually a need for officials to answer for the actions of police, in Europe or anywhere else, if the police are "battling" protesters. Even in Syria. I guess we don't agree on this, and never will.

[Local Drunk]

A rare moment of honesty, from the RTP, perhaps his investigation will also reveal exactly what they were armed with, and which of their munitions were actually used ?

Rubber-bullets or real-bullets, flash-bangs or fire-crackers or gas-grenades, or what ?

And is this perhaps the reason, why there was the very-public-protest from hundreds of low-level policemen/women, concerning the failure to catch the culprits for their dead colleague ?

Rubber bullets, flash-bangs and gas grenades are very unlikely as they all are only effective at a short range. Looks like an ideal sniper position to me though.

I'm not optimistic that the whole truth will ever come out, but my money is on real bullets in high-powered rifles.

Rounds that killed protester/cop were both from hand guns.

Actually here are several types of rounds that can be used in both rifles and pistols. (I don't know what caliber the rounds were) Emptyset pointed out... the trajectory doesn't seem right according to the photos, but that doesn't rule out shooters from other positions unseen in the pictures or an accidental shot. It would be nice to have more info to speculate on.

What I find incredible are the contrasting statements between the Police Chief and Charlem.

[jomtienjinx2013]

In this case though, why didn't Chalerm just say, 'sure, we stationed police up there to prevent protesters breaking into the Labour Ministry' - and apparently the Labour Ministry did come under attack per The Nation witness quotes. Though whether that was before or after police up there fired tear gas down on the protesters I'm not sure.

Fact is, in this case it was actually easier for Chalerm to tell the truth. The truth would've served him and the government better than these stories which even many die hard PT supporters will find hard to believe. Yet he still chose to lie. Guess he doesn't know any other way.

The government didn't place any people on rooftops, the police did. The government officials have no information on police tactics unless they specifically call up the police chief and ask. I am not familiar with what Chalerm did say, I would be interested to see a quote of that. But in either case I doubt he was lying, just misinformed. Because as you correctly point out, he has nothing to gain by lying about it. Quite the opposite. If he did say that I very much doubt he saw the same video as I did.

diceq when in a hole that you want to get out of - stop digging!

[Mackie]

In this case though, why didn't Chalerm just say, 'sure, we stationed police up there to prevent protesters breaking into the Labour Ministry' - and apparently the Labour Ministry did come under attack per The Nation witness quotes. Though whether that was before or after police up there fired tear gas down on the protesters I'm not sure.

Fact is, in this case it was actually easier for Chalerm to tell the truth. The truth would've served him and the government better than these stories which even many die hard PT supporters will find hard to believe. Yet he still chose to lie. Guess he doesn't know any other way.

The government didn't place any people on rooftops, the police did. The government officials have no information on police tactics unless they specifically call up the police chief and ask. I am not familiar with what Chalerm did say, I would be interested to see a quote of that. But in either case I doubt he was lying, just misinformed. Because as you correctly point out, he has nothing to gain by lying about it. Quite the opposite. If he did say that I very much doubt he saw the same video as I did.

The government didn't place any people on rooftops, the police did. Source, please.

The government officials have no information on police tactics unless the specifically call up the police chief and ask. Source, please.

You doubt that Chalerm was lying, at least 90% people on this forum think otherwise. Chalerm got caught red handed far too many times to be trusted any longer. And if you do not see how big this story is then you're simply trolling here. It goes all the way back to 2010 and will definitely vindicate Abhisit and even Suthep. Men in black are real, men in black are part of Thai police force, men in black are most likely a paramilitary formation. And they were killing both Thai soldiers and red mob protesters in 2010. A proven fact. Red mob supporters should also start knocking on Chalerm's door and demand answers with regard to 2010. Poor deluded and manipulated souls.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Mackie

[bigbamboo]

Why is everyone so surprised that the MIB have returned?

[Emptyset]

Rounds that killed protester/cop were both from hand guns.

You have a source for that?

Saw it reported at the time that one of the police was shot by .38 bullet (which is a low powered pistol round afaik). However, looks like I was just assuming the others were too because I can't find a source now. Will post it here if I do. It was said that wounds appeared to be consistent with pistol rounds rather than high powered rifles though.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Emptyset

[FangFerang]

This raises more questions than it answers. A lot more questions. The timing is bizarre (maybe someone does not have the caretaker's government's back anymore), and how long has there been a Men In Black Corps (maybe since the movie came out), and what idiot sent a squad onto a rooftop during a riot without rifles (which I did not observe on the video the first time I saw ot or ten seconds ago)--at that range even a decent shooter could easily miss his mark in a crowded situation.

Tragically, this one also looks a bit like "We missed, so we'll let everyone blame it on the protestors."

I heard a quote once "Friendly fire isn't."

[rubl]

Adul admits 'men in black' seen during clashes

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- National Police Chief Pol Gen Adul Saengsingkaew on Thursday admitted that the "men in black" seen during the fierce clashes between police and protesters in front of the Thai-Japanese Stadium on the first day of the party-list candidates registration are policemen.

The "men in black" referred by the police chief were those seen on the roof-top of the Labor Ministry's building near the candidacy registration venue in Din Daeng and the men in anti-riot uniforms seen smashing the windshields of a vehicle of a volunteer nurse parking near the stadium.

He vowed to investigate and bring them to justice.

-- The Nation 2014-01-02

Same day:

"Regarding the “men in black” seen on the rooftop of the Labour Ministry on December 26 as shown in social media, Chalerm denied that they were policemen but they were protesters attempting to use the Labour Ministry to carry out violent incidents."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/693546-chalerm-to-propose-a-reform-assembly-to-write-a-new-thai-charter/

[rubl]

Rounds that killed protester/cop were both from hand guns.

You have a source for that?

Saw it reported at the time that one of the police was shot by .38 bullet (which is a low powered pistol round afaik). However, looks like I was just assuming the others were too because I can't find a source now. Will post it here if I do. It was said that wounds appeared to be consistent with pistol rounds rather than high powered rifles though.

you're a bit vague here. The 'saw it reported' seems like 'vaguely remember'. Also 'one of the police was shot by .38'? Which one, the one who died or one who was just wounded. The last will surely be happy to hear it might just have been a 'low powered round'.

Anyway, does all this mean that there was no order to shoot and therefor a police officer will be charged with 'murder (attempt)'?

[scorecard]

In this case though, why didn't Chalerm just say, 'sure, we stationed police up there to prevent protesters breaking into the Labour Ministry' - and apparently the Labour Ministry did come under attack per The Nation witness quotes. Though whether that was before or after police up there fired tear gas down on the protesters I'm not sure.

Fact is, in this case it was actually easier for Chalerm to tell the truth. The truth would've served him and the government better than these stories which even many die hard PT supporters will find hard to believe. Yet he still chose to lie. Guess he doesn't know any other way.

The government didn't place any people on rooftops, the police did. The government officials have no information on police tactics unless they specifically call up the police chief and ask. I am not familiar with what Chalerm did say, I would be interested to see a quote of that. But in either case I doubt he was lying, just misinformed. Because as you correctly point out, he has nothing to gain by lying about it. Quite the opposite. If he did say that I very much doubt he saw the same video as I did.

The government didn't place any people on rooftops, the police did. Source, please.

The government officials have no information on police tactics unless the specifically call up the police chief and ask. Source, please.

You doubt that Chalerm was lying, at least 90% people on this forum think otherwise. Chalerm got caught red handed far too many times to be trusted any longer. And if you do not see how big this story is then you're simply trolling here. It goes all the way back to 2010 and will definitely vindicate Abhisit and even Suthep. Men in black are real, men in black are part of Thai police force, men in black are most likely a paramilitary formation. And they were killing both Thai soldiers and red mob protesters in 2010. A proven fact. Red mob supporters should also start knocking on Chalerm's door and demand answers with regard to 2010. Poor deluded and manipulated souls.

Where's fab4 and g'kid when u need them?

[edwinchester]

This is an extraordinary admission. It is unexpected to encounter this degree of candor from the police. But the admission has been made, and frankly really doesn't come as a surprise. It also lends additional light to the general campaign of anonymous attacks against the protesters. The edifice of this administration appears to be crumbling from within. It seems to be all catching up with it. As the registration period has now ended with well over 5 % of the constituencies uncontested, the election itself seems now pointless from even Pheu Thai's standpoint. It's time to turn down the pressure cooker, and allow reform discussions to take place in a manner that engages the input of all sectors of society in a peaceful manner.

Again, care to explain what's so extraordinary about admitting that the police had people stationed on rooftops?

For starters Chalerm had already stated that they were Sutheps agent provocateurs so an almighty slapdown of a Govt Minister.

[TVGerry]

Okay...so what we know is, that there have been police, stationed on rooftops and that people have been shot from high vantage points.

Is there a connection?

Possibly!

Is there any prove?

No- at least not yet!

....soooooooo....

And how fast was it for the protestors to get blamed for his death? Soooooo

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Phfft.... What does the National Police Chief know. They weren't policemen.We were already told a week ago by CSI:Bangkok who the men on the roof were.

Looks like maintenance people to me.

[Emptyset]

Rounds that killed protester/cop were both from hand guns.

You have a source for that?

Saw it reported at the time that one of the police was shot by .38 bullet (which is a low powered pistol round afaik). However, looks like I was just assuming the others were too because I can't find a source now. Will post it here if I do. It was said that wounds appeared to be consistent with pistol rounds rather than high powered rifles though.

you're a bit vague here. The 'saw it reported' seems like 'vaguely remember'. Also 'one of the police was shot by .38'? Which one, the one who died or one who was just wounded. The last will surely be happy to hear it might just have been a 'low powered round'.

Anyway, does all this mean that there was no order to shoot and therefor a police officer will be charged with 'murder (attempt)'?

The one shot in the shoulder was hit by a .38 round, haven't seen details of the bullet type for the two that were killed. I saw it mentioned somewhere that they were also handgun rounds but having checked, I can't confirm it.

These are pictures of the guy shot in the shoulder and the .38 round from the Police Spokesman's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=206533802868286&id=196116867243313

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

What did anyone expect? Ninjas? Police, exactly where they should have been. The question is, did they do anything wrong?

Some expected the guys were just working on the roof's air conditoners.

Did the rooftop men in black policemen do anything wrong? The National Police Chief seems to think they did something untoward, what with his vow to "bring them to justice" and all.

[Tatsujin]

This is an extraordinary admission. It is unexpected to encounter this degree of candor from the police. But the admission has been made, and frankly really doesn't come as a surprise. It also lends additional light to the general campaign of anonymous attacks against the protesters. The edifice of this administration appears to be crumbling from within. It seems to be all catching up with it. As the registration period has now ended with well over 5 % of the constituencies uncontested, the election itself seems now pointless from even Pheu Thai's standpoint. It's time to turn down the pressure cooker, and allow reform discussions to take place in a manner that engages the input of all sectors of society in a peaceful manner.

Again, care to explain what's so extraordinary about admitting that the police had people stationed on rooftops?

I assume you're trolling, but in case you're not . . . it's extraordinary simply because they had denied originally that they WERE Police on the rooftops and had made the implication that they were instead protestors dressed in stolen Police uniforms. If accurate, his statement about "justice" also implies that they already know they were doing something criminal/illegal.

Admitting that the mysterious "men in black" are actually Police opens a whole new can of worms, going right back to 2010 as I'm sure you'll soon see being explored.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Tatsujin

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

depends whether or not one of them shot their brother officer!

if it becomes clear that is what happened then Yingluck and Chalerm will need an urgent flight to Dubai!

I believe, for the Yoobamrung family anyway, that Cambodia is the preferred destination whenever one is implicated in the killing of a police officer.