Moody's downgrades Qantas to 'junk'

[tim armstrong]

Indeed a sad tale about the world's second oldest and still the safest airline. But I think there will be a new competitor for Virgin soon.

[mumjokmok]

I'd use QANTAS any day in preference to Garuda. Rated Garuda as 'worst meal' when I was given a warm Coke and a cold doughnut for my flight from Bali to Jakarta. Equal last was KLM, who issued newly boarded passengers on a flight from Singapore to Jakarta with a cheese sandwich. I was doubly p...d off as I'd purposely skipped dinner to have a repeat fantastic meal from JKT to SIN a few days earlier.

I've been using AA the past three years, as I can afford to use them on my pension. Other airlines I'm afraid can't match their prices. Yes, I pay for every extra, but it's a saver.

Ah to compare Qantas with Garuda. Qantas doesn't take off and fly deliberately at low altitude through powerful electrical storms to save fuel, like from Bali to the infamous Yogyakarta airport with even the stewardess' locked into their seats in full prayer (however Mt Merapi flying out is farken spectacular).

Garuda was pillaged way before Qantas had earned its sterling no crash rep, back in the old days when cricket and footy was sponsored by ciggies. Air Asia style is agreeable because there is less pointless waste serving the food and the airline can probably make cash from branding their menus, not hire anyone to make the food just buy it in from existing chains. Gotta be some advantage in that, however frugal and unwelcoming, because when they try to cut corners for savings on the food you get yuck in a box. If you fly out of Samui you stand a high chance of yuck in a box. Is that raw potato salad?

[khaosai]

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

[F4UCorsair]

I'd use QANTAS any day in preference to Garuda. Rated Garuda as 'worst meal' when I was given a warm Coke and a cold doughnut for my flight from Bali to Jakarta. Equal last was KLM, who issued newly boarded passengers on a flight from Singapore to Jakarta with a cheese sandwich. I was doubly p...d off as I'd purposely skipped dinner to have a repeat fantastic meal from JKT to SIN a few days earlier.

I've been using AA the past three years, as I can afford to use them on my pension. Other airlines I'm afraid can't match their prices. Yes, I pay for every extra, but it's a saver.

Ah to compare Qantas with Garuda. Qantas doesn't take off and fly deliberately at low altitude through powerful electrical storms to save fuel, like from Bali to the infamous Yogyakarta airport with even the stewardess' locked into their seats in full prayer (however Mt Merapi flying out is farken spectacular).

Garuda was pillaged way before Qantas had earned its sterling no crash rep, back in the old days when cricket and footy was sponsored by ciggies. Air Asia style is agreeable because there is less pointless waste serving the food and the airline can probably make cash from branding their menus, not hire anyone to make the food just buy it in from existing chains. Gotta be some advantage in that, however frugal and unwelcoming, because when they try to cut corners for savings on the food you get yuck in a box. If you fly out of Samui you stand a high chance of yuck in a box. Is that raw potato salad?

I can assure you that nobody flys a jet at low altitude to save fuel. It may have been done in an attempt to avoid storms, but definitely not save fuel. The fuel burn at 10,000 feet is 3X what it is at 45,000 feet, so that just doesn't happen.

[F4UCorsair]

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

That's the Captain khaosai, and not all Captains are paid that, only those on A340 and B747. I can assure you it's not at the top end compared with many countries. It is good gross money compared with some SE Asian, African, and South American airlines, but not Cathay, Dragon and Singapore, along with most of the European airlines, and they have more friendly tax systems than Australia. I don't begrudge them a cent, incidentally.

If anybody is being paid too much in QF it's the loaders and flight attendants because they have militant representation.

Pilot salaries represent a very small percentage of the operating costs of an airline, and if the guys/girls up front cost less than a grand an hour, including salary, super, sick leave, etc., it's only a couple of $$ per seat per hour, not much to have the best trained crew in the world taking care of you. Consider the cost of an aircraft, upwards of $300 million (lease cost $30 million pa), fuel burns of 10 tonnes an hour, maintenance costs, etc., and if a crew cost a total of $700,000 a year for flying 1000 hours, it is nothing!

Incidentally I consider the best trained crews to be Brits, Australians and Kiwis, bar none.

Edited January 15, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[khaosai]

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

That's the Captain khaosai, and not all Captains are paid that, only those on A340 and B747. I can assure you it's not at the top end compared with many countries. It is good gross money compared with some SE Asian, African, and South American airlines, but not Cathay, Dragon and Singapore, along with most of the European airlines, and they have more friendly tax systems than Australia. I don't begrudge them a cent, incidentally.

If anybody is being paid too much in QF it's the loaders and flight attendants because they have militant representation.

Pilot salaries represent a very small percentage of the operating costs of an airline, and if the guys/girls up front cost less than a grand an hour, including salary, super, sick leave, etc., it's only a couple of $$ per seat per hour, not much to have the best trained crew in the world taking care of you. Consider the cost of an aircraft, upwards of $300 million (lease cost $30 million pa), fuel burns of 10 tonnes an hour, maintenance costs, etc., and if a crew cost a total of $700,000 a year for flying 1000 hours, it is nothing!

Incidentally I consider the best trained crews to be Brits, Australians and Kiwis, bar none.

Hi,

Some good points there but I still think your way off the mark with overall pilot salaries. Legacy carriers will of course be well paid but most airlines will offer nothing like those terms and conditions to their crews.

Do Qantas operate the 340 ?

You state that the British, Australians and Kiwis are the best trained crews. Are those military pilots. I have flown with many nationalities who have been as proficient as any of those nationalities you mentioned, albeit in the airline industry.

[aussiestyle1983]

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

That's the Captain khaosai, and not all Captains are paid that, only those on A340 and B747. I can assure you it's not at the top end compared with many countries. It is good gross money compared with some SE Asian, African, and South American airlines, but not Cathay, Dragon and Singapore, along with most of the European airlines, and they have more friendly tax systems than Australia. I don't begrudge them a cent, incidentally.

If anybody is being paid too much in QF it's the loaders and flight attendants because they have militant representation.

Pilot salaries represent a very small percentage of the operating costs of an airline, and if the guys/girls up front cost less than a grand an hour, including salary, super, sick leave, etc., it's only a couple of $$ per seat per hour, not much to have the best trained crew in the world taking care of you. Consider the cost of an aircraft, upwards of $300 million (lease cost $30 million pa), fuel burns of 10 tonnes an hour, maintenance costs, etc., and if a crew cost a total of $700,000 a year for flying 1000 hours, it is nothing!

Incidentally I consider the best trained crews to be Brits, Australians and Kiwis, bar none.

Hi,

Some good points there but I still think your way off the mark with overall pilot salaries. Legacy carriers will of course be well paid but most airlines will offer nothing like those terms and conditions to their crews.

Do Qantas operate the 340 ?

You state that the British, Australians and Kiwis are the best trained crews. Are those military pilots. I have flown with many nationalities who have been as proficient as any of those nationalities you mentioned, albeit in the airline industry.

No. Qantas do not and have never operated the A340.

The widebody jets Qantas operate are: B747, B767, A380, A330.

I have not liked the Qantas product for some time. However, a few years ago, I flew a 1 hr domestic flight on an old 767 from MEL to SYD. I was provided with a warm cheese sandwich and a bottle of wine - free - on a 1 hr domestic flight. Best domestic service I've had. Nonetheless, I have always flown Thai from SYD to BKK but now that they have switched their more modern / comfortable A340-600 aircraft back to the old 747-400 with minimal underseat legroom because of the retrofitted IFE boxes - I will be flying Qantas on my next trip to BKK. I scored a SYD-BKK return ticket on Qantas (A330-300) for $580 AUD which is $300 less than the cheapest I usually pay on Thai. The Qantas A330 economy seat configuration of 2-4-2 suites me better than the Thai 747 which is 3-4-3 (only the last 3 rows where the fuselage tapers in have 2-4-2) so my wife and I can have a window and isle together without having to possibly sit next to an unpleasant passenger. Anyway, this will be my first Qantas International flight in years so I will see how it goes but I have noticed that Thai is on the way down so I have no problem in trying Qantas. I also get 30kg luggage allowance on Qantas compared to 20-25kg on Thai.

BTW My Thai wife and other Thais I know try to avoid Thai because their cabin crew / airport staff seem to have an attitude towards their own Thai passengers and show more respect to foreigners. I have observed this.

Edited January 22, 2014 by aussiestyle1983

[Old Croc]

Qantas to send Boeing 747 maintenance work offshore after Avalon base closes

Tue 21 Jan 2014, ABC.net.au

Qantas says it is not viable to keep the 747 maintenance work in Australia

Qantas will shift the heavy maintenance of its retiring Boeing 747 fleet overseas after its operation at Avalon in Victoria shuts in March.

Late last year Qantas announced it was closing its maintenance facilities at Avalon, with the loss of 53 employees and 246 contractors.

The airline flagged the work could be done in Brisbane, Sydney or offshore.

But Qantas has today announced it was not viable to relocate the 747 maintenance work to an Australian facility.

[DrDweeb]

I'm not surprised at all. A couple of years back I was late for work by 5 days due to the management unilaterally shutting the airline down. Not only that, after years of loyalty on my behalf they changed the loyalty program, first by devaluing the points earned system, then later wiping off any points if you didn't fly with them or their affiliates within a certain period. Simply, they will not get any of my money ever again. There are cheaper and better airlines.

Which reminds me TG altered their points system recently, pissing off their regular customers as is the wont of carriers the world over. They raised the Gold threshold and renewal totals. For a while there TG served us business class meals in Y, but now it is just early meal service and I never seem to be able to get a glass of wine at the same time as the meal any more.

QANTAS has been the object of a concerted effort buy the Australian trade union movement. Their objective has been to destroy QANTAS, and they have succeeded. Sad, but true.

QANTAS' competition problems of late can be directly attributed to their domestic competition being partially owned by foreign governments, and with that a very different capital access cost structure. The opposition carriers can afford to be the last man standing in a race to the bottom. QANTAS cannot.

These two statements are easily verifiable.

That being said, I have not flown QANTAS internationally for decades as they do not fly the routes I travel. Domestic travel with them in Oz was problem free last time I was there, certainly nothing to complain about, which was also true of the two competitors with which I also flew.

Not true at all.Pray tell,why would the workers "destroy" Qantas,therefore their own jobs,they just want a fair wage,in line with the heiracy.

<deleted>. I work in the airline industry and own a company in the transport industry in Australia.

I could write a book about this, and I am not going to do it here.

QANTAS is the whipping boy, because the unions believe it can never be abandoned by the government. Therefore they are in a position to make any demand, and every demand that is met, trickles down throughout transport industry, and industry generally.

I have dealt with these c*s, you haven't got a <deleted> clue mate, trust me.

[F4UCorsair]

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

That's the Captain khaosai, and not all Captains are paid that, only those on A340 and B747. I can assure you it's not at the top end compared with many countries. It is good gross money compared with some SE Asian, African, and South American airlines, but not Cathay, Dragon and Singapore, along with most of the European airlines, and they have more friendly tax systems than Australia. I don't begrudge them a cent, incidentally.

If anybody is being paid too much in QF it's the loaders and flight attendants because they have militant representation.

Pilot salaries represent a very small percentage of the operating costs of an airline, and if the guys/girls up front cost less than a grand an hour, including salary, super, sick leave, etc., it's only a couple of $$ per seat per hour, not much to have the best trained crew in the world taking care of you. Consider the cost of an aircraft, upwards of $300 million (lease cost $30 million pa), fuel burns of 10 tonnes an hour, maintenance costs, etc., and if a crew cost a total of $700,000 a year for flying 1000 hours, it is nothing!

Incidentally I consider the best trained crews to be Brits, Australians and Kiwis, bar none.

Hi,

Some good points there but I still think your way off the mark with overall pilot salaries. Legacy carriers will of course be well paid but most airlines will offer nothing like those terms and conditions to their crews.

Do Qantas operate the 340 ?

You state that the British, Australians and Kiwis are the best trained crews. Are those military pilots. I have flown with many nationalities who have been as proficient as any of those nationalities you mentioned, albeit in the airline industry.

No khaosai, QF doesn't operate the A340. The speed of my fingers across the keyboard obviously exceeded the speed of the brain commanding them. I meant the A380, of course.

I've flown with a lot of nationalities too, and the standouts have always been Brits, Australians and Kiwis, but there are acceptable standards in many nationalities. The surprise for me was Fijians when I did a brief stint there, but the Indians shone, outstanding pilots. The Fijian CAB was run by former QF and AN pilots, so the standard was imported....and maintained.

The Japanese, like several of the Asian countries, suffered tunnel vision, and couldn't think beyond what was in a manual, but they could quote pages and paragraphs from manuals like none I've ever seen.