and of course I can trust the food and water anywhere to be safe.

Wow!! That's blind trust for you. Surely you must be joking??

I thought the march-april air quality was far worse a few years ago. In the last two or three years it's been bad, but definitely an improvement on the years before that.

Reasons to not leave chiang mai:

• outstanding food choice and for the large part much much greater quality that anything available in england or australia
• markets with fresh produce everywhere - just about non-existent in england and australia
• chilled local people compared to very angry people in england, as a generalisation
• no stress over the rampant price rises for utilities and just about all other aspects of life
• not a nanny state
• hardly ever have to deal with a policeman
• easy to get about, very few traffic jams (so long as you avoid a few certain roads)
• loads of sports and aventure hobbies available
• an absence of approximately one million laws that seem to be in people's faces in england and australia
• almost zero pressure to conform to society's expectations of you
• can meet so many different people from different parts of the world
• many people are positive and life affirmative, just not the case in britain
• able to eat out for a nice dinner without ripping a giant hole out of your pocket
• lots of beautiful women around, seeing one in england is like spotting a polar bear in the south pole
• clubs for all kinds of hobbies to join
• great local magazines
• lots and lots of cafes, little eating places, tea and coffee places

reasons to leave?

air quality can be better in england yes, but no chemtrails here in chiang mai

can't really think of much else.

I've been in chiang mai for 12 years, and at the moment for me it is still an amazing place to live.

If you could afford to live in a similar lifestyle (excluding sex and booze) within a part of your or another western country that speaks your tongue, has warm pleasant weather, good healthcare, easy and enjoyable lifestyle, less corruption, would you leave Thailand?

Ultimately though you can't get around the inconvenient truth that Thailand is just so much better than anywhere else. And this is disregarding money. If you also factor in money then Thailand is in a league of its own.

A recent HSBC bank survey supports this. They polled 7000 expats living in 100 countries and Thailand earned the top spot for "best overall expat experience."

There's a lot of talk about Ecuador and other Central/South American spots on the web, but I have a hard time finding expats and digital nomads who actually LIVE there. They must be the "silent type". Whereas it seems that every other digital nomad and world traveler I come across on the web is based in Thailand.

The problems expressed by some TV members are real (pollution, overdevelopment, noise, dogs, etc.) But there are ways to minimize these problems and stay in Thailand. Noise and dogs used to be a problem for me. Now hardly anymore. My biggest problem now is the heat and I'm working on it (but this one may take a bit longer to resolve).

You inherited money that would allow you to live on $3000 to $4000/month and were happy to retain your current comfortable lifestyle, would you leave Thailand and return home?

OK, with this new information, i would stay and save. get a nest egg for days that are too warm, smoky, or whatever. maybe change things up by moving 10 km away, and it's amazing how things are different.

the big question is what your gut tells you. is the heat, pollution, noise, etc.... simply so much that you are beyond the breaking point. i have gotten that way with the smoke and heat. it was so uncomfortable i didn't want to live that way. but if you can now afford to escape and return back "home", i think you might find that a good solution. Unfortunately, I think the heat will never go away (lifetime) and the pollution will remain for decades. china might not be fully "developed" for another 40+ years. pollution = industrial revolution and then the jet stream comes to CM. the burning of crops is another story. harder to guess.

Vietnam to me is out of the question, been there twice and pollution is worse.

Really? I've spend a lot of time in District 7 of HCM over the past five years, and found the air very good (and I'm asthmatic). My impression is that air pollution doesn't linger in the flat Mekong region, unlike CM's mountain bowl. I hiked up Doi Suthep last Christmas and was shocked at the pea soup visible from there at sunrise, when the air would have been at its cleanest.

^ Late December would not have been at its cleanest; it's still the cool & dry season. Cleanest is any time in the rainy season.

At any time during the cool & dry season you get dips in air quality that aren't quite as severe as March, but will impact visibility nonetheless. PM-10 values of 60-80 or so that last for a couple days until it clears. That's visible, but not likely to affect most people healthwise. Then in March you will see several days values that are double that, or even triple that. That's bad.

When we have guests in any cool season month I usually recommend them to take the trip up the mountain on a day/time when it's clearest, i.e. when you can clearly see the mountain from town then you will also have a good view the other way. That sometimes means waiting 2-3 days, and picking an afternoon over a morning. Always been like that, it's not a recent thing.

Hell, every day spent in Germany was a day wasted in my life.

What a ridiculous statement. Germany is one of the finest countries in the world. Yes I've lived and worked there.

Nobody's mentioned mexico. I have very little knowledge about the country or living there, but a couple of times people i respect have told me what a great place it is, with great weather. I imagine the food would be pretty good too.

I think most of asia these days will have compromised air quality. As important as the quality of air is, so is water and food. The water we get in chiang mai is far better than in england, and the food quality is outstanding on the whole, again way way better than what england offers up. By quality i mean safe, nutritious, and tasty.

However bad one thinks the air quality is in chiang mai, it is still way better than bangkok.

I'm with Winnie here, I've traveled fairly widely and there is nowhere else in all the places that I have been to where I have thought I'd prefer to live. I remember coming to Chiang Mai for the first time in the mid nineties and knowing this is where I wanted to spend my days. As Winnie said the only real problem is the air quality at times, I'd say if If money was no object I'd take the family away abroad for the Summer Holidays in March/April to somewhere that was a bit cold, a month in the Swiss Alps something like that.

Right, I understand what you are saying as I remember my first days here and the feeling I had at the time (and that feeling continued for years). But the development, noise, traffic, pollution, malls, over-crowding...have gotten to be too much. We always leave each March and spend a month or so at the beach to avoid the pollution so got that covered but now it's the rest of the year where I'm not as happy as I used to be.

I've been lucky to have lived in a secluded area surrounded by jungle and 2 lakes for the last 6 years. Today when I got up and came into my office I heard some noise and looked out my window only to see some large trucks filled with soil and guys with chainsaws starting to prepare a lot for development only 100 meters or so from my back window. Oh well, I knew it would happen some day.

Nobody's mentioned mexico.

For good reason.

^ Late December would not have been at its cleanest; it's still the cool & dry season. Cleanest is any time in the rainy season.

I meant at dawn, the air should be the cleanest of the day.

I lived in CM for a couple of years and so understand the annual cycle.

I'm with Winnie here, I've traveled fairly widely and there is nowhere else in all the places that I have been to where I have thought I'd prefer to live. I remember coming to Chiang Mai for the first time in the mid nineties and knowing this is where I wanted to spend my days. As Winnie said the only real problem is the air quality at times, I'd say if If money was no object I'd take the family away abroad for the Summer Holidays in March/April to somewhere that was a bit cold, a month in the Swiss Alps something like that.

Right, I understand what you are saying as I remember my first days here and the feeling I had at the time (and that feeling continued for years). But the development, noise, traffic, pollution, malls, over-crowding...have gotten to be too much. We always leave each March and spend a month or so at the beach to avoid the pollution so got that covered but now it's the rest of the year where I'm not as happy as I used to be.

I've been lucky to have lived in a secluded area surrounded by jungle and 2 lakes for the last 6 years. Today when I got up and came into my office I heard some noise and looked out my window only to see some large trucks filled with soil and guys with chainsaws starting to prepare a lot for development only 100 meters or so from my back window. Oh well, I knew it would happen some day.

Quick, during the middle of the night, dump a bunch of old scary looking spirit houses and wrap a tree or two with old faded cloth. To drive the fear home, maybe add a shattered amulet and some chicken bones.

^ Late December would not have been at its cleanest; it's still the cool & dry season. Cleanest is any time in the rainy season.

I meant at dawn, the air should be the cleanest of the day.

I lived in CM for a couple of years and so understand the annual cycle.

Ah okay, sorry, I misunderstood. However, also within a single day the afternoons are clearer than mornings when it comes to visibility and PM-10. I don't know why this is, but it's observable and the hourly data also confirms it. Perhaps it's because in the morning there is also more moisture in the air (more humid) which may bind with dust particicles, but that's a wild and uneducated guess. Either way, afternoons are clearer on almost any given day.

^ Late December would not have been at its cleanest; it's still the cool & dry season. Cleanest is any time in the rainy season.

I meant at dawn, the air should be the cleanest of the day.

I lived in CM for a couple of years and so understand the annual cycle.

Ah okay, sorry, I misunderstood. However, also within a single day the afternoons are clearer than mornings when it comes to visibility and PM-10. I don't know why this is, but it's observable and the hourly data also confirms it. Perhaps it's because in the morning there is also more moisture in the air (more humid) which may bind with dust particicles, but that's a wild and uneducated guess. Either way, afternoons are clearer on almost any given day.

Ah, I see, interesting, with CM's bowl topography you may be right about the temperature/humidity.

But I was still shocked at how bad the air pollution was even at Christmas week, I noticed it all day long, but my friends who lived there full-time did not. The old frog in boiling water analogy, perhaps.

Hell, every day spent in Germany was a day wasted in my life.

What a ridiculous statement. Germany is one of the finest countries in the world. Yes I've lived and worked there.

Yes it's one of the finest countries in the world. And no WAY would I want to spend any day there that can be avoided. Out of the Western countries I visited I kind of liked the Southern parts of the USA best; very agreeable weather, and you can really enjoy the outdoors. Also Australia when you get into the subtropical areas, but Australia is very expensive; pretty much on par with the more expensive places in Europe.

I could just about rationalize living in those places, but that's mostly because I have a young family, and those places are just super for kids. But as a 60+ retiree, I don't think so. Just the ageism would get to me.

Germany is one of the finest countries in the world

Not if you like the beach and tropical fruit. (and hate salty food)

The view from Mo Cham last Saturday....the 'smog' layer clearly visible...but not to bad

I'm with Winnie here, I've traveled fairly widely and there is nowhere else in all the places that I have been to where I have thought I'd prefer to live. I remember coming to Chiang Mai for the first time in the mid nineties and knowing this is where I wanted to spend my days. As Winnie said the only real problem is the air quality at times, I'd say if If money was no object I'd take the family away abroad for the Summer Holidays in March/April to somewhere that was a bit cold, a month in the Swiss Alps something like that.

Right, I understand what you are saying as I remember my first days here and the feeling I had at the time (and that feeling continued for years). But the development, noise, traffic, pollution, malls, over-crowding...have gotten to be too much. We always leave each March and spend a month or so at the beach to avoid the pollution so got that covered but now it's the rest of the year where I'm not as happy as I used to be.

I've been lucky to have lived in a secluded area surrounded by jungle and 2 lakes for the last 6 years. Today when I got up and came into my office I heard some noise and looked out my window only to see some large trucks filled with soil and guys with chainsaws starting to prepare a lot for development only 100 meters or so from my back window. Oh well, I knew it would happen some day.

I can understand your frustration but as is said 'The only constant is change' I hear you on the pollution and the increased traffic but 2 or 3 new shopping malls spread out over the whole of Chiang Mai in my opinion is no big deal and as for overcrowding I'm a Londoner and when I step outside my door in CM it is a hell of a lot less crowded than where I was in London but that is a personal thing as well.

I can see a lot of potential of Burma in the future and if I was in my twenties or thirties would look into exploring there for somewhere to settle but married to a Thai National with two kids and on the wrong side of forty I'll be sticking with Chiang Mai.

I can't think of any place I would rather be than right here in Chiang Mai. Post # 63 goes double for me. Didn't want to waste space quoting the whole piece. I thought Nong Khai looked like a possibly good place to live, but it is definitely hotter and more humid there. Living near that big beautiful river would be nice. The "Ping" doesn't really compare to the Mekong.

However, NK is going to get more f'd up due to ever increasing traffic out of China. Also, there are no good farang bookshops there.

I love my home country, the USA, but it is No Country for Old Men.

Excluding air pollution and the steadily increasing traffic, most of the things that trouble me about living in Chiang Mai are things that would be even more pronounced if I was living in my home country. So I’d be inclined to stay in Chiang Mai until/unless some new incentive to go home arises.

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

Absolutely agree, I've been there myself already with that thought.

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

Are you really that stuck in life where you have to ilve it out in a grotty town?

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

Are you really that stuck in life where you have to ilve it out in a grotty town?

One persons "grot" is another persons, nirvana!

If i think of my home country england and compare it to thailand...

in england i could be living a much better life for 5% of the time, a really top quality life it would be for that 5% of time…

• meeting friends in a rustic country pub supping real ales and perhaps watching some summer cricket
• going to a festival or a decent live concert
• watching live sports

but in thailand for the 95% of time it is a far superior life experience than in england. If i sit down and think about it (which i hardly ever do) then i miss that 5%, but life should not be reduced to 5% brilliant times and 95% tough times.

And in particular, chiang mai in thailand.

I have two riders:

i agree with those who think about living in chiang rai, a great place.

in england i can leave the house and within minutes be walking through fields and woods and in general just thoroughly enjoying long walks, and so easy to do them. Here in chiang mai i must drive somewhere in order to go for a walk. Perhaps i need to explore more possible walks like this.

Air quality is not good compared to back in england (although i do wonder about those chemtrails), but what fun is it in life breathing in delicious air while being assailed by all the problems that a nanny state with one million laws throws at you, along with a mostly angry population going about their life at approximately 100mph? Not to mention the appalling food there, and i mean the quality of produce, not the dishes themselves.

If i wasn't married to a chiang mai girl who, thus far anyway, doesn't want to live outside of chiang mai or thailand, i think i'd pick greece, especially an island in greece. Or spain.

But the grass is always greener elsewhere eh?! No, chiang mai despite its problems is still a top place to enjoy life.

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

But then in a short time, Chiang Rai will be "grotty" too, and you will have helped make it so. (First heard that word in 'A Hard Day's Night' 50 years ago, how time flies!) All the new expats will be be grumbling that CR airport isn't "World Class". And saying can't something be done about all of the low rent farangs blowing through town on the way to visa runs in Mae Sai. And saying why can't we have really cool malls like they have in Chiang Mai. And saying why is there so much traffic, it's getting as bad as CM.

Etc.

You inherited money that would allow you to live on $3000 to $4000/month and were happy to retain your current comfortable lifestyle, would you leave Thailand and return home?

OK, with this new information, i would stay and save. get a nest egg for days that are too warm, smoky, or whatever. maybe change things up by moving 10 km away, and it's amazing how things are different.

the big question is what your gut tells you. is the heat, pollution, noise, etc.... simply so much that you are beyond the breaking point. i have gotten that way with the smoke and heat. it was so uncomfortable i didn't want to live that way. but if you can now afford to escape and return back "home", i think you might find that a good solution. Unfortunately, I think the heat will never go away (lifetime) and the pollution will remain for decades. china might not be fully "developed" for another 40+ years. pollution = industrial revolution and then the jet stream comes to CM. the burning of crops is another story. harder to guess.

Don't forget he was looking for a country that speaks your native language.

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

Are you really that stuck in life where you have to ilve it out in a grotty town?

One persons "grot" is another persons, nirvana!

Yes, agreed, by why choose to live in the grot?!

I can see a time in the not too distant future when a lot of the farang here in CM will make a move up to Chiang Rai........especially if they get around to building more condos up there. Still got the smoke in Feb-March -April but at least a lot less motor exhaust the rest of the time than in this grotty town.

Are you really that stuck in life where you have to ilve it out in a grotty town?

One persons "grot" is another persons, nirvana!

Yes, agreed, by why choose to live in the grot?!

The decision of whether a place is grot or not is 100% subjective, I enjoy living in CM, it suits me and at this stage in my life it provides all the things I want at this moment. I can understand fully however that a much younger person wants something different, that's fine, it's individual choice. Does that answer your question?

in england i can leave the house and within minutes be walking through fields and woods and in general just thoroughly enjoying long walks, and so easy to do them. Here in chiang mai i must drive somewhere in order to go for a walk. Perhaps i need to explore more possible walks like this.

Air quality is not good compared to back in england (although i do wonder about those chemtrails), but what fun is it in life breathing in delicious air while being assailed by all the problems that a nanny state with one million laws throws at you, along with a mostly angry population going about their life at approximately 100mph? Not to mention the appalling food there, and i mean the quality of produce, not the dishes themselves.

You can leave the house if the weather is good enough, which it often isn't.

Freezing, muddy, wet, sideways rain, mist and fog.

I lived near Bodmin Moor, great hiking when the weather let me, great cliff and beach walks too.

But often, just too extreme to leave the house.

Loads of great jungle walks around CM.

Pilgrims trail to Wat Doi Suthep is one of the greats.

Huay Tung Tao to Dtaat Mook waterfall then up to the lychee orchards another.

Doi Pui Village to Buddhas footprint.

The other mong village to Princess sala a good un.

Air in the UK, great in some places bad in other places.