My 6 month conclusions on Thailand (and the women)

[Scarpolo]

What do you have in common with a 32 year-old Thai woman? Music taste? Literature? Golf? Greek mythology?

That pretty much goes for a Thai woman of any age. Might as well go for a young, pretty one.

True statement. That's why I question the logic of many young farangs in Thailand, thinking that they somehow have more in common with a Thai woman of the same age. They don't. Language (big one), cultural beliefs, values, etc., are vastly different, regardless of the age. Now if the farang dude can speak Thai fluently, a whole new ballgame.

I agree that speaking Thai fluently is a big advantage, But I've been here several decades and only know few a Westerners who do. Otherwise, how many Thai women of any age have any real insights into foreign music, literature or Greek mythology? Very, very few.

Every mall and every place we go, they play American music, all over Thailand

[Tony125]

on reading your post, my first thought was for the young Thai lady that put in on the line for you .... perhaps you have contributed to the anti-American movement ... came in nice and polite, taken what you wanted/needed and (atypically American) gone home ... don't let the door hit ya ...

Not true,

I have business reasons to go back, and I "have" to go back to clean up a spill I left from the last marriage,

The girl, has benefitted greatly,

before I got her she didnt have a hot water heater for her shower, or a vacumb, which I purchased quickly when I moved in, as well, a large refridgerator to house my large supply of vegetables that I regularly juice,

I also finished her kitchen for her,

try not to look at this as being one way,

I took very good care of her, and she wants me back,

We have both known from the beginning I would have to go back once certain matters came to conclusion and required my presence, and I have real business needs that must be done in person,

The question is, do I return?

She wants me too, and I might,

I just do not know, and the door is left open for me

Trust me, all her friends know she has been happier than they have seen her in several years, so this was a mutually beneficial arrangement, and she was by far, no servant

You will be going back because as you said you don't want a 40+ year old as your 54. You are not going to be dating any hot 20 + year olds in Florida unless you are paying some serious cash or dealing with crack heads. Your looking to live in Florida? Retirement mecca for older Americans 60+ but may find some hot senior citizens who take care of themselves..

PS> we make a whole lot more than an average Thai (but I guess you haven''t met any Hi-so Thai's as I doubt you come close making what they do) so most of us don't mind giving our mate, mia, G/F, mia Noi some help financially so her parents can have a easier life in Non Khon Nowhere

[Scarpolo]

Well, hate to say it but she wasn't your gf. She is a train girl/bus girl or whatever u wanna call it.

Stays with one guy who pays her way. Once he leaves, she finds another. It's sad that u think you 2 were in love.

It's their profession. And they professionals at makin you think they love u. Or that u are the sexiest guy in the world. Or that you have the biggest ____ they ever seen. Or that you were the best lay they ever had. Etc. etc.

Have a good time back in the states!

Not sure which part of my OP brings you this conclusion:

1): When did I say we were "in love?"

2) what makes you think she is a train-bus girl? She owns 4 homes, 3 fully paid for, receives rental income on two of them, her mother and brother live in the other, and owns a parcel of land she paid 30,000 baht for that is worth 1,000,000 baht now?

3) she owns a car she paid cash for, brand new at Honda

4) her last boyfriend was 3 years ago, and wasn;t looking for one when we met

5) she may be a professional, and I call her that when she is navigating bkk traffic all the time, but as far as showing love or feeling, or playing any sort of game, ,

trust me,

this girl didn't need me in her life, and certainly didn't need me in her home the last few months,

but it didn't hurt, and her home looks a lot better with me in it, as does the outside, as I have a green thumb,

you may be quick with the wit,

but in this case, it doesn't fit

[sam sen]

you were here six months, my shortest ever relationship lasted longer than that. just how many relationships/females did you know in six months. very small sample i'd think. living here would no doubt give you a totally different view point.

what exactly is your problem with immigration/visa's here? if you'd done your homework you would have obtained a six month triple entry easy to manage visa. no hassles.

imagine if you were thai visiting the states would you be able to obtain a visa so easily? i think you complain too much.

[Scarpolo]

Good Post!.....sounds like you had a Great time in Thailand.

Not sure what you're really looking for BUT the immigration thing seems to have bothered you most. Why not go for a "retirement visa" where the hassle is minimal. Renewal once a year (less than an hour at immigration) and 90 day reporting (less than 15 minutes)....at least that has been my experience for the last 10 years. If that is TOO MUCH of a hassle for you to deal with to stay here .....then I agree with benabilina....."have a good flight back".

As for the women and having to take care of their family......this is Thailand and it is actually one of the things I like! In America the "old folks " are disposable and put in "homes" once they are no longer useful....SAD!

I have been lucky in my 10 years here as extended family have not asked much, so when I give to them its because I want to! Many are barely in survival mode and the little I give helps out greatly! I am happy to do it.

re: old people put in homes:

the old people today are the parents of baby boomers, as such, they are no longer; put in homes.

assisted living today is flourishing across the States and, they resemble apt villages;

of course there are still nursing homes, and these are for those who cannot care for themselves or have medical conditions that modern medicine has staved off death; but not infirmity,

this older generation is the best off, so, we are not talking about the same thing here,

I am referring to the family and extended family "expecting" that the youngers take care of them,

even if they have to sell their bodies to do it,

and if you agree with that, then, that's your choice,

I do not.

I do believe that living with an American has taught her how to say no, and I am seeing it begin its effect as the annual pilgrimidge to the north, has already been expressed as too expensive for her to entertain, as she expectes it to cost her 100,000 baht for family, and she isnt getting it from me, which only means one thing;

she either sells her body some more for her family, or she cuts her trip short.

I already heard her tell her mother, it is going to be much shorter than part trips,

and her friend just came home from the north to bkk, and told her it cost her 40,000 Baht, and she felt raped.

It has begun,

She has been altered by living with me, and I knew and expected it,

Her mother was encouraging her to get pregnant from me, and the only reason she gave, was so, someone would take care of her when she was older,

no thought to their not being a father for the child,

all she thought of was indentured servitutude for the offsrping,

the reponse was, there was no guarantee that a child would do that in the next generation and she is right

Baby boomers are approaching 70. Their parents would be approaching 100.

• Number of nursing homes: 16,100
• Number of beds: 1.7 million
• Occupancy rate: 86 percent

The "Young Old" 65-74.”The first wave of aging Baby Boomers who will reach full retirement age in 2011. For the next 20 years, 74 million Boomers will retire.“

good stats;

it appears my thinking on that topic has "aged" somewhat

those retiring boomers are mostly broke now, courtesy of the contrived financial crisis,

so they will work, if they can, until they die.

I was thinking of my own parents who at 85, have their own paid for home, have their cars and their health care and my mother still works part time as a nurse, which is more like full time because of her senority, so, they have great healthcare

[humqdpf]

when you've had over 30yrs experience of Thailand then you can come to some conclusions.

6months doesnt give you time to wet your whistle.

I know you are saying that joking like becasue you have the smiley

It dont matter if you are in Thailand for 2 months or 2 years or 30 years, it is all experience and you can make conclusions any time.

" ... it is all experience and you can make conclusions any time."

Yes, but you needn't feel compelled to thrust those conclusions on an innocent and unsuspecting world.

In the wonderful world before Facebook and Twitter people realized that their conclusions about anything after 2 months or 6 months were probably superficial, childish and naive and they wouldn't rush to publish them because, again before Facebook or Twitter, they knew that they wouldn't get past some editor who would realize they were superficial, childish and naive.

In the past we would just wait until the start of the next school year and offer our conclusions in the inevitable "What I did during the summer holidays" essay assignment and our teachers would lie to us about interesting it all was.

Someday we'll look back on this period in history as the time verbal diarrhea and over-sharing ran amuck.

We will spend the first two or more decades of the 21st Century spreading our privacy over numerous networks and we will spend the next couple of decades inventing ways of stopping the spreading of our privacy over numerous networks.

[Stradavarius37]

If every one like the OP left Thailand for good, the country would be much better off.

[Scarpolo]

It's good to see some positive reflections & opinions.....for a change.

What amazes me though on here & everywhere else is when people say that & 'due to experience & time spent in such & such as situation' they now understand more.

Of course this is true to a certain extent as we do learn, & with this learning we also change, then we revaluate the situation based on this.

Have a good trip back, be happy & stay healthy.

Thanks,

and pretty much why the title clearly stated, it is a 6 month review.

no pretense, that is all it is, and, I do like it here,

but business interests require attention,

that's a reality I can not dismiss,

also, for $75 and 55,000 miles I can get back here any time, 1st class on Cathay Pacific,

that makes things a lot easier for me, than regular travelers

[Scarpolo]

6 months here = 6 months experienc.......but in no way could you possibly gotten to know the entire "thailand world"....you received a snapshot of life in thailand and although there are wonderful honest girls in thailand.....I have serious doubt that you found one (given the profession). These girls are first and foremost highly skilled in the art of deception. Don't be so ignorant.....it was all about your money or she would not have been with you....step back once and see the much bigger picture which takes more than six months to see. Try a long term study of a 10 year timeframe....I am sure you will draw different conclusions. Good luck back in Amerfukya....nothing has changed. I man of your age should already know you don't teach an old dog new tricks. Enjoy your perspective on thai life....next time try a real visit....you'll see things differently

She didn't ask for, or receive a dime from me, for the first two months of seeing each other.

I went to Chaing Mai alone in December, and after not seeing me for a week, she asked if she could join me, and drove up from bkk to stay with me. We stayed nearly a month, and had a great time getting to know eachother away from her "other world"

There was never any pretense, and when it was time to return to bkk, she told me she had to get back, before I was ready to leave, because she was going to be late on her mortgage if she didnt get back to work,

it was then I asked to move in with her, and paid her not to work,

a long con?

can you prove it?

does it matter?

you think she would so quickly give up her independence?

you may be right,

you may not be,

I think at 54, born and raised in NYC, and my years as a cabbie, before financial industry came to me, and my experience with hookers of every variety, from the street to the waldorf, and every con artist in the world, many whom I grew up with, and met while working in the garment center of manhattan as a teenager, when 42nd street was still 42nd street and not disneyland,

I can tell a con from a con

this is a good girl, in a bad industry, making the best of it, and investing wisely,

her real friends are all legit business owners and her age,

she is uncommon, and from what I have experienced,

more honest than many of the women I have known

yes, she lies to many, and maybe even to herself,

Sheryl Crow has a song for you:

the words for you are: "lie to me, I promise, I'll believe"

really, not everyone is gullible, especially those who are open and honest, they usually get same in return

[Scarpolo]

Good Post!.....sounds like you had a Great time in Thailand.

Not sure what you're really looking for BUT the immigration thing seems to have bothered you most. Why not go for a "retirement visa" where the hassle is minimal. Renewal once a year (less than an hour at immigration) and 90 day reporting (less than 15 minutes)....at least that has been my experience for the last 10 years. If that is TOO MUCH of a hassle for you to deal with to stay here .....then I agree with benabilina....."have a good flight back".

As for the women and having to take care of their family......this is Thailand and it is actually one of the things I like! In America the "old folks " are disposable and put in "homes" once they are no longer useful....SAD!

I have been lucky in my 10 years here as extended family have not asked much, so when I give to them its because I want to! Many are barely in survival mode and the little I give helps out greatly! I am happy to do it.

I am referring to the family and extended family "expecting" that the youngers take care of them,

even if they have to sell their bodies to do it,

and if you agree with that, then, that's your choice,

C'mon, Scarpolo, get real. Nearly all of these girls selling their bodies do so to take care of their own kids. And if they're sending money home to mommie from Pattaya, it's because mommie is looking after their kids for them. If not for the single mother situation, most of these bargirls would be working in factories or 7/11 and yes, they would still help their parents out if they could. I agree with the Beach dude in this regard. This is the reason why there are so few nursing homes in Thailand, because the Thais wouldn't typically send their aged parents away to be cared for by someone else. They would look after them until the end. I've seen this in many, many families.

She has no kids,

I have met her mother and the brothers kid lives with the actual mother, so, it isnt a switch, it isnt her kid.

this cannot be hidden when you are living in the same home as I am

[Scarpolo]

I feel sad for the OP. Trapped in the US of A system. Just figured there is a better place out there.

And That's all what the OP wants, that's what we all want, happiness, right?

Good luck to ya anyway and wish you the best.

Actually, not trapped.

Not sure if life is actually better here, at the level I want to live at, and do live at in the States.

For me, it is a quality of life decision, and my quality of life, is, was and will be better in the States.

I can leave anytime I change my mind, and will have a girlfriend here if I want to return, I live near the beach in south florida, and, do not have the exposure to the high inflation and other non essentials that people waste their time, lives and money on,

It isnt like I am 34, I am 54, and havent worked for anyone other than myself since 1999 when the tech stocks boom hit home runs for me

I am and have been reduced with the contrived collapse back in 08, but survived it and am positioned in junior gold stocks that have a fire on their fuses right now, all without anyone calling it a bull market yet,

Gold has moved from 1170 to 1370 and no one has even noticed it yet.,

above $1,430

and its back in major bull market territory

[Scarpolo]

Your post started off pretty well.

I agree, far too many low income earning women are fleeced by their mothers and extended families under the "I took care of you when you were little" excuse thus many end up selling their bodies to keep their parents in whisky and card games and elevate face in the village that "she's a good daughter".

But then you got into the relationship stuff and ended with:

"At 54, with a g/f 32, there is no way I will get involved with a girl over 40 again, unless I am 65 perhaps, but now? No way."

Why not? What do you have in common with a 32 year-old Thai woman? Music taste? Literature? Golf? Greek mythology?

Be honest, you enjoyed perving all over a young body for 6 months and she let you because she's seeking a secure future for her kids, family and herself, and as a prostitute will not be able to find a Thai or foreign man around her own age.

Fact is, if you made a prostitute the number one woman in your life in the USA, you'd have no problem securing her "love" either.

We share a value system, and, I am a 54 year old artist, from the financial industry, not a retired garbage truck driver 60 pounds over weight, skimping it out on a meager pension.

At 32, she surprisingly, has an old school style, dresses very conservatively, and has a 1940's style outlook on the world, with a desire for modern life, a first generation mixture of the girl from a family with no education and the first to go to school, and then enter the business world, which failed due to theft from her brothers wife,

it was then that she entered the sex trade, and couldnt believe the amount of money she could make in the soapy massage business, which quickly elevated her to a level unseen by her family and their peers.

I dont agree with it, but cannot argue it,

She also has a dissassociative capacity to be a different person at work, then she is here, and because I met her "there" I know the difference in how she "performs" at work, and who she really is,

a person cannot hide who they really are for very long,

I was enticed by her "work" personality, but it wasn't until I moved in with her, that I learned who she really is.

Does all of that apply to the prostitutes in the US? They have a life story too.

Without the drug and alcohol addictions, perhaps.

This one is straight as an arrow, and when she saw I smoked weed, wanted no part of me if I didn't stop, so I did,

it isnt like I could find the fabled thai sticks of old,

all I found here was cambodian wild grown with no sparkle on it, just dead brown leaves

[Phoenix1312]

My 6 months included getting ripped off by my lawyer, paying $1000s in under the table money and having my husband cheat with the local women. Glad to be back home. Wonderful experience.

[Aforek]

When you have been here for longer than 6-months then you will actually be able to comment on Thailand and the people and culture with far more authority. But until then ... listen... though some of the things you said only scratched the surface ... have a good trip home.

At what point can someone claim legitimacy to be able to comment on Thailand and the culture?

The person who immersed themselves for 2 years in the village life and took the trouble and time to learn the language and the nuances of day to day life?

Or the 20 year veteran who lives in a farang ghetto, plays golf with farang friends, drinks in a farang bar or pub and has no Thai friends female or male?

20-30 years in Thailand is nothing if you don't live the first example: "The person who immersed themselves for 2 years in the village life and took the trouble and time to learn the language and the nuances of day to day life?"

you want to know Thailand ?: stop thai bashing and learn Thai ( speaking and reading ) !.

as for living with an ex prostitute , relationship based on reason is much stronger than a love based one, and it can last for ever.

[Scarpolo]

Good Post!.....sounds like you had a Great time in Thailand.

Not sure what you're really looking for BUT the immigration thing seems to have bothered you most. Why not go for a "retirement visa" where the hassle is minimal. Renewal once a year (less than an hour at immigration) and 90 day reporting (less than 15 minutes)....at least that has been my experience for the last 10 years. If that is TOO MUCH of a hassle for you to deal with to stay here .....then I agree with benabilina....."have a good flight back".

As for the women and having to take care of their family......this is Thailand and it is actually one of the things I like! In America the "old folks " are disposable and put in "homes" once they are no longer useful....SAD!

I have been lucky in my 10 years here as extended family have not asked much, so when I give to them its because I want to! Many are barely in survival mode and the little I give helps out greatly! I am happy to do it.

Not interested in the retirement visa due to IRS reporting requirements and disclosures.

One of the reasons to leave the States is the oncoming Obamacare tax role which applies penalties for filers

"IRS reporting requirements and disclosures" What would they be? Am I missing something.....I still have properties in the States and by also living in Thailand the ONLY form that I know is the one requiring disclosure of your bank accounts abroad (one simple form ....fill in the amount and bank) which I file when I do my Taxes.....

WOW ....another hassle and good reason for you to go home. As many have said ...."have a good flight home"

You may not be in the same position as I am with assets,

You also many not know that Obamacare will cause anyone filing a US tax return in 2014 to pay a penalty if they do not show current US health care coverage, and if they want, they can reach into any bank acount to collect their new "premiums"

the best way to avoid that is not banking in your own name,

I use a combination of coporate entities, and thus avoid many of the tax mistakes most americans make,

opening a foreign bank account in my own name would the height of stupidity after years of careful tax structuring

you may or may not understand that, but as I havent worked since 1996 on anyone's payroll, and "retired" with the tech stock boom of 1999-2000, I do not handle my finance the way you do

[Hedghog]

6 months!

You haven't scratched the surface.

Smart move if you don't return.

[Hedghog]

My 6 months included getting ripped off by my lawyer, paying $1000s in under the table money and having my husband cheat with the local women. Glad to be back home. Wonderful experience.

Your case is well documented.

But very different.

[Kudel]

I have met expats in Thailand telling they me lived there for many years who still don't know their earhole from their @rsehole concerning al things Thailand.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Kudel

[Scarpolo]

Your post started off pretty well.

I agree, far too many low income earning women are fleeced by their mothers and extended families under the "I took care of you when you were little" excuse – thus many end up selling their bodies to keep their parents in whisky and card games and elevate face in the village that "she's a good daughter".

But then you got into the relationship stuff and ended with:

"At 54, with a g/f 32, there is no way I will get involved with a girl over 40 again, unless I am 65 perhaps, but now? No way."

Why not? What do you have in common with a 32 year-old Thai woman? Music taste? Literature? Golf? Greek mythology?

Be honest, you enjoyed perving all over a young body for 6 months and she let you because she's seeking a secure future for her kids, family and herself, and as a prostitute will not be able to find a Thai or foreign man around her own age.

Fact is, if you made a prostitute the number one woman in your life in the USA, you'd have no problem securing her "love" either.

We share a value system, and, I am a 54 year old artist, from the financial industry, not a retired garbage truck driver 60 pounds over weight, skimping it out on a meager pension.

At 32, she surprisingly, has an old school style, dresses very conservatively, and has a 1940's style outlook on the world, with a desire for modern life, a first generation mixture of the girl from a family with no education and the first to go to school, and then enter the business world, which failed due to theft from her brothers wife,

it was then that she entered the sex trade, and couldnt believe the amount of money she could make in the soapy massage business, which quickly elevated her to a level unseen by her family and their peers.

I dont agree with it, but cannot argue it,

She also has a dissassociative capacity to be a different person at work, then she is here, and because I met her "there" I know the difference in how she "performs" at work, and who she really is,

a person cannot hide who they really are for very long,

I was enticed by her "work" personality, but it wasn't until I moved in with her, that I learned who she really is.

I had to adjust to that.

She is ok with her job, and has it completely compartmentalized from her private life, and walks proudly.

We have never been discriminated against in her area, and it is only in the tourist areas where falange's stare at her, unwarrantedly long

I have gotten a few dissaproving looks from some short ugly thai women, but by and large, I felt accepted, and always safe

You wrote, "We share a value system, and, I am a 54 year old artist, from the financial industry, not a retired garbage truck driver 60 pounds over weight, skimping it out on a meager pension."

You want to know her value system?

The retired garbage truck driver is staying in Thailand and he is the handsome man who will put the rice on her table.

Her value system and the retired garbage truck driver is the same.

Don't kid yourself,

I have walked with her all over and she looks at no one,

but is stared at regularly by both thai and foreign men,

and sometimes even women,

I dont want to degenerate my own thread,

but this is a darling of a looking girl,

very few stand a chance with her,

her work being the exception,

at which time they are paying 4,000 baht for 90 min,

this girl doesnt need, or look for men, and has several thai suitors, all of which she states cannot maintain her attention.

I wont claim "this one's different" but she is pretty enough to be able to choose, and she knows it.

this is a friend I met in Chaing Mai from the States, we had a great time with this song, so I encouraged him to put it on film, to share with the rest of us, poor fools who can't discern for themselves who they are engaging:

did I forget to mention, I was born and raised in NYC?

you think I didnt go to school, of every sort of con that the thai's cant even imagine?

you either over credit yourself, or under estimate others

[F4UCorsair]

Guys, be fair to the OP. He's not 'summing up' Thailand for anybody but himself. What he posted are his observations, and he's foisting them on nobody.

To suggest he knows nothing is arrogant, and it's possible his observations may change with more exposure, at which time he's entitled to review and make them known.

I thought it was a good post.

Safe travels man.

[donniereadit]

You also many not know that Obamacare will cause anyone filing a US tax return in 2014 to pay a penalty if they do not show current US health care coverage

Under certain circumstances, you won’t have to make the individual responsibility payment. This is called an “exemption.”

You qualify for an exemption if:

• You are outside the USA for more than 330 days that year, or
• You’re uninsured for less than 3 months of the year, or
• You have Medicare, Medicaid, or some VA coverages, or
• You have such low annual income that you are not required to file with the IRS

[Scarpolo]

I should point out that at the end of both my marriages, both wives stated to me, that all they were to me in the end, were my whores.

what else is there left to say

I Believe that says it all....Your ex wives saying that to you, says MORE about you than them......Think about it!

I believe both of them gave me insight fron their hearts

This is invaluable, unbiased intelligence,

I have no illusions about myself

[Scarpolo]

At 54, in America, if you are not rich, not will be easy for you to find a match under 40, with one exception. Hispanic women. If they live in America already may be spoiled with the culture, but...if you meet them in their countries, specially in Mexico and Brazil, probably don't.

If you like Thailand, and looks like you do, and you can qualify for a retirement visa extension, come back. I will write to you about.

Good luck.

I only qualify by age,

I wont open a bank account here,

and I dont have the income they require,

I am all asset appreciation, not a pensioner

[pigeonjake]

safe travels my mate,

[thailampang2012]

54 yeas old and u think a young girl went anywhere near you for any other reason but money? Lol

Why not a combination of both...like in some western countries?

[Scarpolo]

You also many not know that Obamacare will cause anyone filing a US tax return in 2014 to pay a penalty if they do not show current US health care coverage

Under certain circumstances, you won’t have to make the individual responsibility payment. This is called an “exemption.”

You qualify for an exemption if:

• You are outside the USA for more than 330 days that year, or
• You’re uninsured for less than 3 months of the year, or
• You have Medicare, Medicaid, or some VA coverages, or
• You have such low annual income that you are not required to file with the IRS

I will have a better grasp on that soon, but thank you for the exemptions,

I hope they don't have a catch 22 in there, for the self employed and the more than 10% shareholders of a corp., or other traps set for those using LLC's

[thailampang2012]

At 54, in America, if you are not rich, not will be easy for you to find a match under 40, with one exception. Hispanic women. If they live in America already may be spoiled with the culture, but...if you meet them in their countries, specially in Mexico and Brazil, probably don't.

If you like Thailand, and looks like you do, and you can qualify for a retirement visa extension, come back. I will write to you about.

Good luck.

I only qualify by age,

I wont open a bank account here,

and I dont have the income they require,

I am all asset appreciation, not a pensioner

Look in your messages..or e-mail me ..OK?

[melvinmelvin]

in which soapy and under what nick does wondergirl work?

[Showbags]

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One of the funniest things i ever read on TV : "I found the people here honest and without aggression." I love a good laugh !!!

This got me also.....those few words simply define that you did not learn anything in your 6 months here...sorry, but true.

[Showbags]

I should point out that at the end of both my marriages, both wives stated to me, that all they were to me in the end, were my whores.

what else is there left to say

I Believe that says it all....Your ex wives saying that to you, says MORE about you than them......Think about it!

I believe both of them gave me insight fron their hearts

This is invaluable, unbiased intelligence,

I have no illusions about myself

Funny how you go from 2 to 1 again now !!