Stem Cell treatment in Thailnad - recommendations?

[Ianatlarge]

I have an Australian buddy, who has a number of health issues, and who is hoping that stem cell treatment can help him, plus, that treatment in Thailand will be cheaper than treatment in Australia. We are mainly talking about damage to joints from wear and tear (army).

Does anyone here have knowledge or a recomendation for stem cell treatment facilities in Bankgok ?

[thepool]

Your friend needs to talk with an Australian Orthopaedic Surgeon about this.

Most(All?) stem cell treatments have been banned in Thailand.

There is very little or no evidence for this type of treatment especially for joints.

There are however Quacks to be found who will happily empty a wallet !

[Sheryl]

Stem cell treatment for joint disease is still in extremely early experimental stages and not approved as a treatment in Thailand nor, I would think, Australia either.

The Thai Food and Drug Administration has regulated the use of stem cells since 2009 after there were some horrific deaths as a result of their use. Stem cells are permitted for use in conditions were the benefit has been proven, such as leukemia and other blood diseases. Other than that, only in approved clinical research which has been approved by national regulatory committees.

See http://www.bumrungrad.com/about-us/what-people-say-about-us/what-s-new/stem-cell-treatment

Your friend needs to be careful not to fall victim to quack treatments or unregulated, unproven ones which may be dangerous. If he really wants to try this still very experimental therapy he should do so only in the context of an approved clinical trial. (These have their dangers too, and may not work, but at least the risks will be fully explained. In addition treatment is usually free).

There are a number of such trials worldwide though none at present in Thailand, and the only one in Australia is not recruiting. See http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=osteoarthritis+stem+cell&Search=Search

[northengr]

Your friend needs to talk with an Australian Orthopaedic Surgeon about this.

Most(All?) stem cell treatments have been banned in Thailand.

There is very little or no evidence for this type of treatment especially for joints.

There are however Quacks to be found who will happily empty a wallet !

I looked into this and all other choices recently for failing knee. OA seems to be working there and neck first.

There is one clinic near soi cowboy and there is a big sounding one in the Phillipines. There are some offering in the USA. BUT and this is important -

They all seem to be at best riding a wave of hope, claiming to make stem cells from this or that and ready to empty your wallet. A few have gone to jail in the US. I would not trust the US govt any further than some on line web charlatan. But somehow a wallet emptier near soi cowboy does seem appropriate.

Top notch orthopeadic surgeon at Bumrungrad just winced and had a skeptical pencil line smile when i mentioned my researching all choices including that. He ended up doing Arthro on me, since USA hospitals are so customer unfriendly and so expensive.

Someday. stem cell may work, and there is a USa company working on a synthetic meniscus, but those are years away.

Move to Israel and maybe you could get into a trial on the USA company synthetic meniscus.

Still off the sports waiting for the first week post op to pass.

M

[thepool]

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Your friend needs to talk with an Australian Orthopaedic Surgeon about this.

Most(All?) stem cell treatments have been banned in Thailand.

There is very little or no evidence for this type of treatment especially for joints.

There are however Quacks to be found who will happily empty a wallet !

I looked into this and all other choices recently for failing knee. OA seems to be working there and neck first.

There is one clinic near soi cowboy and there is a big sounding one in the Phillipines. There are some offering in the USA. BUT and this is important -

They all seem to be at best riding a wave of hope, claiming to make stem cells from this or that and ready to empty your wallet. A few have gone to jail in the US. I would not trust the US govt any further than some on line web charlatan. But somehow a wallet emptier near soi cowboy does seem appropriate.

Top notch orthopeadic surgeon at Bumrungrad just winced and had a skeptical pencil line smile when i mentioned my researching all choices including that. He ended up doing Arthro on me, since USA hospitals are so customer unfriendly and so expensive.

Someday. stem cell may work, and there is a USa company working on a synthetic meniscus, but those are years away.

Move to Israel and maybe you could get into a trial on the USA company synthetic meniscus.

Still off the sports waiting for the first week post op to pass.

M

Hope you recover well!

Do not expect the knee to be 100% and work hard with the post - op exercise !

[Scubapro27]

Has he not looked at knee replacement operation, these are highly successful. I know a guy who at 43 had to have this done due to years of rugby playing

[atyclb]

Your friend needs to talk with an Australian Orthopaedic Surgeon about this.

Most(All?) stem cell treatments have been banned in Thailand.

There is very little or no evidence for this type of treatment especially for joints.

There are however Quacks to be found who will happily empty a wallet !

I looked into this and all other choices recently for failing knee. OA seems to be working there and neck first.

There is one clinic near soi cowboy and there is a big sounding one in the Phillipines. There are some offering in the USA. BUT and this is important -

They all seem to be at best riding a wave of hope, claiming to make stem cells from this or that and ready to empty your wallet. A few have gone to jail in the US. I would not trust the US govt any further than some on line web charlatan. But somehow a wallet emptier near soi cowboy does seem appropriate.

Top notch orthopeadic surgeon at Bumrungrad just winced and had a skeptical pencil line smile when i mentioned my researching all choices including that. He ended up doing Arthro on me, since USA hospitals are so customer unfriendly and so expensive.

Someday. stem cell may work, and there is a USa company working on a synthetic meniscus, but those are years away.

Move to Israel and maybe you could get into a trial on the USA company synthetic meniscus.

Still off the sports waiting for the first week post op to pass.

M

Perhaps you are confusing a soi cowboy clinic with a nurse uniform themed go go bar? LOL

A word to the wise. Prudence is your best friend. It is not difficult to find surgeons eager to do procedures since procedures generate high revenue regardless of country. Theres a wealth of legitimate helpful online information. emedicine.com is a mainstrean recognized (commonly used by physicians and other health care providers) credible site.

a sports injury as a teenager tore a ligament and a menisus in one knee. one surgeon said unless he opened the knee and removed the meniscus i'd have a horrific arthritis by age 30. another surgeon offered meniscus removal via arthroscope. we opted to wait and see. knee has been great well beyond age 30 and does not limit/impact sports including basketball. i have zero symptoms of arthritis not locking or decreased ROM. the only thing that tells me i have a torn meniscus and ligament is an old memory.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/330487-treatment#aw2aab6b6b4 Arthroscopy

A procedure of low invasiveness and morbidity, arthroscopy will not interfere with future surgery. However, a randomized, controlled trial in patients with moderate-to-severe osteoarthritis found that arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis of the knee provided no additional benefit beyond that afforded by optimized physical and medical therapy.^[10]

Arthroscopy is indicated for removal of meniscal tears and loose bodies; less predictable arthroscopic procedures include debridement of loose articular cartilage with a microfracture technique and cartilaginous implants in areas of eburnated subchondral bone (see the images below). These treatments have varying success rates and should be performed only by surgeons experienced in arthroscopic surgical techniques.^{[10, 106, 107]} Overall, arthroscopy is not recommended for nonspecific “cleaning of the knee” in osteoarthritis.

Lifestyle Modification, Physical/Occupational Therapy, and Other Nonpharmacologic Measures

Lifestyle modification, particularly exercise and weight reduction, is a core component in the management of osteoarthritis.^{[86, 87]} Guidelines from Osteoarthritis Research Society International (OARSI) advise that nonpharmacologic treatment of hip and knee osteoarthritis should initially focus on self-help and patient-driven modalities rather than on modalities delivered by health professionals.^[65]

The ACR strongly recommends the following nonpharmacologic measures for patients with knee or hip osteoarthritis^[88] :

• Cardiovascular or resistance land-based exercise
• Aquatic exercise
• Weight loss, for overweight patients

The ACR conditionally recommends the following measures for patients with knee or hip osteoarthritis:

• Self-management programs
• Manual therapy in combination with supervised exercise
• Psychosocial interventions
• Thermal agents
• Walking aids, as needed

For patients with knee osteoarthritis, the ACR also conditionally recommends the following measures:

• Medially directed patellar taping
• Medially wedged insoles for lateral-compartment osteoarthritis
• Laterally wedged subtalar strapped insoles for medial-compartment osteoarthritis
• Tai chi

For knee osteoarthritis, an American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) guideline suggests encouraging patients to participate in self-management educational programs such as those conducted by the Arthritis Foundation and to incorporate activity modifications into their lifestyle (eg, walking instead of running or engaging in alternative activities).

Instruct the patient to avoid aggravating stress to the affected joint. Implement corrective procedures if the patient has poor posture.

Weight reduction relieves stress on the affected knees or hips. The benefits of weight loss, whether obtained through regular exercise and diet or through surgical intervention, may extend not only to symptom relief but also to a slowing in cartilage loss in weight-bearing joints (eg, knees).^[89] In addition, weight loss lowers levels of the inflammatory cytokines and adipokines that may play a role in cartilage degradation.^[90]

Some patients with osteoarthritis benefit from heat placed locally over the affected joint. A minority of patients report relief with ice.^[91]

[humqdpf]

Perhaps you are confusing a soi cowboy clinic with a nurse uniform themed go go bar? LOL

That would indeed add a whole new meaning to the term, "Stem Cell Treatment"!!

[asdecas]

Perhaps you are confusing a soi cowboy clinic with a nurse uniform themed go go bar? LOL

That would indeed add a whole new meaning to the term, "Stem Cell Treatment"!!

But is there a happy ending?

[richard peters]

Despite what some health professionals may tell you, Stem Cell treatment is the way of the future in medicine which will make many 'cut and sew' operations obselete. I have had this treatment in Asia for cancer and it was at a very affordable price. Some of the stem cell treatment methods I heard about in some western countries 'defied logical research' and would not be successful. For a specific problem you should contact an expert Chinese researcher of genetics & DNA, who works with one of the world's leading researchers on stem cell treatment. Contact English speaking Chinese researcher Dr. Wanda Wang by //REMOVED//

Edited March 18, 2014 by Rimmer
email and phone numbers removed as per forum rules

[sam sen]

my ex worked as an OT at better being hospital in bangkok where they carry out stem cell treatment. she worked there for over a year and in all that time no patient showed any substantial improvement following treatment, the vast majority showed no improvement whatsoever.

i dont know anything about stem cell research or treatment but i know about human nature and i did see patient's hopes and expectations raised and subsequently dashed. it gave me a bad feeling. indeed my ex has now left the hospital for mainstream OT work after becoming disillusioned with stem cell treatment.

this is only my observations but my advice would be to make sure your friend manages his/her expectations.

details here

http://www.betterbeingthailand.com/

[atyclb]

Despite what some health professionals may tell you, Stem Cell treatment is the way of the future in medicine which will make many 'cut and sew' operations obselete. I have had this treatment in Asia for cancer and it was at a very affordable price. Some of the stem cell treatment methods I heard about in some western countries 'defied logical research' and would not be successful. For a specific problem you should contact an expert Chinese researcher of genetics & DNA, who works with one of the world's leading researchers on stem cell treatment. Contact English speaking Chinese researcher Dr. Wanda Wang by E-mail [email protected] (or try phoning 0831 381 757).

"Some of the stem cell treatment methods I heard about in some western countries 'defied logical research' and would not be successful"

Would be great if you could elaborate here. Since you are anonymous don't worry you can even share your own story. Stem cell does have tremendous possibilities.

Also legitimate researchers publish their findings and include any failure, problems, etc.

[F4UCorsair]

If he is a former military member, and there is documented evidence of his injury, have him contact DVA. This can be up to 25 years after he was discharged, not necessarily during service because joint degradation can take years to be revealed. DVA will pay ALL costs associated with joint replacement.

DVA covered hearing aids and knee replacement beyond 25 years for me, but there was evidence going back to a few years post discharge.

Forget stem cell therapy.

[easybullet3]

this is a quick but IMPORTANT message for you to pass on to your friend (who has the health problems etc)

in addition to his quest for stem cell treatment, there is other things that should be done in the meantime to IMPROVE his/her chances of improvement:

Please remember this one basic fact:

- Doctors (and hospitals) are AMAZING at finding the nature of the problem and diagnosis and then they will offer a number of treatments and pills and medications to support it.

with some conditions, the pills and meds are to help ease the problem,, but dont cure it. Perhaps stem cell treatment can do this,, but its still in its beginning stages and hard to know the outcome (as yet).

and with some other things, the pills and meds may be 100% effective to end the illness,,, though they do nothing to make sure it doesnt come back again in the future.

anyway...

the good news is that doctors and hospitals only have training in the above.

if you didnt know,, in almost every country world wide,,, doctors are NOT trained up in nutrition and food connection to illness!!!

they just seem to have a brain blockage when it comes to connecting the junk we eat and the sickness it causes!

what I am gonna let you know is completely obvious and basic,, but the truth is that almost no-body bothers to take note of it!!

firstly.. in case you didnt know: dairy and milk products are massively linked to all forms of respiration and mucus build-up in the body.

Mucus build-up causes (in itself) a huge host of internal problems,, (from digestive, to bones).

quit the milk products and it dramatically eases the burden on the respiratory and body internal system.

(thats milk, cheese, cream, yogurt etc).

Think of daily as "clogging up" your works.

if you get into a panic about "where do you get your calcium from" then do a bit of research and you will see that ALL calcium comes from plants!!!!

cows eat the plants (grass) and get their calcium... and this is the calcium that is passed through the cows milk to you!!!

just eat your green veggies and you will get your calcium,, (just as cows do).

secondly: DRAMATICALLY INCREASE the amount of fresh fruit and fresh Green vegetables you have EVERY DAY.

this is REAL FOOD!!! this is the stuff that contains ALL the vitamins and minerals and enzymes that your body needs to recover!!!

DRINK ENOUGH WATER to correctly hydrate the body and to help your body flush itself.

get good sleep so that your body can properly repair itself.

QUIT JUNK FOOD!!! that is oil, hot oil, fried oil, dairy, sugar, flour (bread, pasta), mayonnaise, sauces (dressings), soft drinks, coke etc.. even diet soda,, quit it!!! the artificial sweeteners are massively linked to cancers and buggering up the bodys cells.

i hope you realize that by doing the above things (in addition to what your doc says) will DRAMATICALLY INCREASE YOUR FRIENDS CHANCES OF A POSITIVE OUTCOME!!!

and,, doing it a little bit is not really enough.. if your friend is worried,, then I hope they make the correct choices.

Thats all

I hope this message finds good hands

Marc

[easybullet3]

i also forgot to mention that GREEN LEAF VEGETABLES are especially good for bones and joint problems!!!

even celery is incredible.

[Murray2612]

I have had two knee replacements in the past 12 months ( 70 years old) and both are doing well; although you need to do is exercise every day and not over do it. Swimming and exercise bike are the best along with gentle exercises that the physio recommends. I had my knees done in Brisbane Australia and rehab in Thailand; i have private HB fund so did not cost much; plus OZY doctors are well conversed with knee replacements.

I also looked at stem cell therapy but there are no facilities in Australia; as a matter of fact there is a vet in Northern Queensland who is using stem cell therapy on dogs with great success; improvement in very short time; i would trust a vet over a doctor any day but he would not try it on humans yet!!! A friend of mine has had great success with Parkinsons disease with stem cell therapy from Switzaland; he can walk normally now where he could not before the treatment; also his speach has improved enormously; just thought i would put that one in there for the sceptics.

[atyclb]

below is non hyped article on stem cell tx for the type of degenerative joint disease discussed on thread Technology Insight: Adult Mesenchymal Stem Cells for Osteoarthritis Therapy

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/575067_1

[atyclb]

i also forgot to mention that GREEN LEAF VEGETABLES are especially good for bones and joint problems!!!

even celery is incredible.

Fast food can probably kill you or at least make you very sick.

Look at all the obesity and diseases it causes.

Recall a great movie called "Supersize Me" a guy was medically evaluated before starting a daily diet at McDonalds. he was followed by doctors and besides gaining weight, and vomiting, he developed abnormal liver blood tests typically seen in alcoholics.

[Sheryl]

Well a very large population of people eat fast foods and are not, in the near term, very sick nor keeling over dead. But unquestionably fast foods/processed foods are unhealthy and a heavy consumption of them contributes significantly to many chronic health problems in the long run.

Equally unquestionable is that a diet of fresh foods with lots of fruits and veggies and overall fiber is healthy for you. However even the best of diets does not prevent degeneration of the joints as you age; at best it may slow it down somewhat. Exercise will do even more (provided it is sensible exercise and not wildly overdoing it for your age and fitness level). Even so, everyone ages, even the most fit with the best diet, and degenerative wear and tear occurs on the joints.

It is hoped that at some time in the future, stem cell treatments will widen the option of interventions for osteoarthritis but the science is simply not there yet and it would be extremely dangerous and foolish to go in for unproven treatments of that sort now, especially since they are available only outside of mainstream medical practice and contrary to law.

A program of individually tailored physical therapy works wonders for many people. Some people also feel that glucosamine supplements and fish oil help.

If that fails, there are well established medical therapies with a solid track record.

With something like Parkinsons, where the best medical science can currently offer is still bad, I can better understand someone taking a gamble on the risks of undergoing unproven stem cell treatments, especially if frontline Parkinson drugs have ceased to work. But not for osteoarthritis.

[Sheryl]

P.S. Neglected to mention but the single best thing anyone can do for arthritis is to lose weight if they are at all overweight. This leads to dramatic improvement in symptoms in most cases. And avoiding obesity to begin with will definitely help delay and reduce degenerative changes in the joints.

[atyclb]

Well a very large population of people eat fast foods and are not, in the near term, very sick nor keeling over dead. But unquestionably fast foods/processed foods are unhealthy and a heavy consumption of them contributes significantly to many chronic health problems in the long run.

Equally unquestionable is that a diet of fresh foods with lots of fruits and veggies and overall fiber is healthy for you. However even the best of diets does not prevent degeneration of the joints as you age; at best it may slow it down somewhat. Exercise will do even more (provided it is sensible exercise and not wildly overdoing it for your age and fitness level). Even so, everyone ages, even the most fit with the best diet, and degenerative wear and tear occurs on the joints.

It is hoped that at some time in the future, stem cell treatments will widen the option of interventions for osteoarthritis but the science is simply not there yet and it would be extremely dangerous and foolish to go in for unproven treatments of that sort now, especially since they are available only outside of mainstream medical practice and contrary to law.

A program of individually tailored physical therapy works wonders for many people. Some people also feel that glucosamine supplements and fish oil help.

If that fails, there are well established medical therapies with a solid track record.

With something like Parkinsons, where the best medical science can currently offer is still bad, I can better understand someone taking a gamble on the risks of undergoing unproven stem cell treatments, especially if frontline Parkinson drugs have ceased to work. But not for osteoarthritis.

Soundtrack in English

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcgAzuNKGNA

Edited March 17, 2014 by atyclb

[Paranak]

In stem cells there are a lot of justifiable as well as unfounded claims out there. Thanks to google though it isn’t so hard to find the real deal … Stem cells is a big subject covering all different kind of stem cells from different kind of sources. Putting all of them into the same pot would be a mistake.

With regards to your friend: for osteoarthritis and other wear and tear conditions, PRP or Mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) are probably the way to go prior to orthopaedic surgery. Unless joints are hopelessly damaged, I would assume even the orthopaedic surgeon would today first suggest to try PRP or MSCs.

Thanks to the recent hype for PRP and MSCs therapies among professional athletes dealing with wear and tear conditions like Nadal, Tiger Woods, and 80’000 others last year in the US, there is also a lot of literature available. One clinic group that is present in Australia and Thailand has an interesting collection of research posted on their website (http://www.surecell.com/general-research/).

Neither PRP nor MSCs therapies rely on 3rd party cells or substances and are therefore perfectly legal therapies a physician can suggest in Australia as well as Thailand. The physician won’t be allowed to claim he can cure a specific illness, but he is allowed to perform PRP or MSCs therapies in an attempt to do so.

With regards to pricing, the costs for PRP and MSCs are probably very similar globally. While medical insurances generally don’t cover the complete therapy, they do cover consultation, imaging and hyperbaric chamber.

[Sheryl]

MSC therapy is still in experimental stage. Not approved by any health authority anywhere that I am aware of. There are some approved clinical trials ongoing though.

In a few years the picture may be different, but now is not the time to do this except in the context of an approved clinical trial.

[thepool]

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MSC therapy is still in experimental stage. Not approved by any health authority anywhere that I am aware of. There are some approved clinical trials ongoing though.

In a few years the picture may be different, but now is not the time to do this except in the context of an approved clinical trial.

+1

In addition evidence for the efficacy of PRP is limited and much is based on anecdote.

No large scale studies have yet been undertaken.

Look here

W. K. Hsu, A. Mishra, S. R. Rodeo, F. &lt;deleted&gt;, M. A. Terry, P. Randelli, S. T. Canale, F. B. Kelly. Platelet-rich Plasma in Orthopaedic Applications: Evidence-based Recommendations for Treatment. Journal of the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, 2013; 21 (12): 739 DOI: 10.5435/JAAOS-21-12-739

[Paranak]

My earlier post was only referring to Platelet Rich Plasma (PRP) and Mesenchymal Stem Cells (MSCs) coming from the patients own body.

There needs to be differentiated between these treatments and stem cell treatments most posts here seem to be referring to.

Of course I completely agree that anybody looking for stem cell treatment has to be extremely careful only being enrolled with clinics that perform legal procedures. There is a lot of quackery going on where clinics and individuals are offering miracle stem cells therapies at obscene prices for whatever the patient would like to have cured.

PRP and MSCs coming from a person’s own body are a completely different story.

The word “experimental” needs to be put in perspective: Many surgical procedures lack proof. Arthroscopes for osteoarthritis have been proven to not work and yet they are considered mainstream. There is more clinical data to support PRP than chiropractic or homeopathy yet the later are not considered experimental!

There are clinics all over the world - a lot of them in the US, Europe and Australia, University clinics, sport clinics or general practices, that are performing PRP and MSCs treatments among others also for musculoskeletal conditions by following completely legal treatment protocols. The US FDA, the Thailand FDA, Australian's TGA all have their own take on the subject - and some treatments are legal in all locations. In the US, as long as there is no altering of the tissue gained from a patient, it is considered a treatment and not a biologic drug - hence safe and legal as long as performed by a qualified physician. In Thailand, Bumrugrad’s website summarises it well - not well regulated yet, but legal if the physician follows a certain code of conduct. In Australia the TGA stated: (quote) “The TGA does not regulated medical practice and Therapeutic Goods (Excluded Goods) Order No. 1 of 2011a excludes human cells and tissue from regulation by the TGA for particular medical practices under certain conditions. This exclusion covers the collection, manufacture and use of a patient’s own cells to treat that same patient for

a single clinical indication, if overseen by a single medical practitioner in a single course of treatment.”

Maybe PRP and legal MSC protocols have to make a better job educating about the differences to clearly illegal and potentially unsafe therapies.

Luckily I don’t have any joint problems. However, having relatives with severe Osteoarthritis I witnessed PRP and MSC treatments delivering real improvements and improving quality of life.

[Sheryl]

MSC, from the patients own body, is still in experimental stage. It is also still a stem cell therapy. "Stem cell therapy" does not imply cells from another sources. It can be from either a donor or the patient themselves, most research now focuses on the latter since means of extracting host stem cells have been found. (Exception in cases like kleukemia where the host's own stem cells would nto be suitable).

[Ianatlarge]

Thanks for the thoughtful and useful replies. Seems like NO. I have passed on this thread to my friend, and he agrees that it is not as good an idea as he hoped.

[Baldrik]

I know it is an older post but I recently came across a great little clinic with fantastic rates and service.  Revival Clinic is in Pathumwan near Lumpini park and the staff are excellent!  Here is the information that lead me to them in the first place Stem Cells for Arthritis

[uncleeagle]

For early stage osteoarthritis the use of hyaluronic acid injections is known to be beneficial and has been used for several decades with a low (but non zero) complication rate.

 

Hyaluronic acid works in several ways. It acts as a shock absorber within the joint, is an anti-inflammatory and may also stimulate new cartilage growth. But use a good orthopaedic surgeon, not a quack and not one of the aesthetic clinics that are offering knee injections.

 

Also, hyaluronic acid supplements taken orally may also be of benefit, especially in conjunction with glucosamine sulphate and MSM.