Why Is Thailand So Backward?

[Cassandra]

the sad thing is Thai degrees are not worth the paper they are written on.

Thailand is home to some of Asia's most respected and prestigious universities. Most second-rate universities in the west are just a laguhing stock in comparison.

Where did you get your information from? Thailand is nowhere close to any top university anywhere, except Thailand itself.

Top 100 Asian Universities 2006

Top 3000 Universities

Not even close

I don't disagree with your conclusion but the methodology used (webometrics) is suspect, or more specifically web-based and science slanted.A better ranking is that produced by the Higher Educational Supplement but this unfortunately shows that Thai universities are not in the first or even second tier, when judged in a regional conext.As far as competing with the best of Japan, US, UK, Australia and China I'm afraid they are just also rans.A friend of mine who has taught at Chula and a major London day school thought the children in the London 6th form were ahead of most Chula 2nd years in terms of intellectual curiosity, academic achievement and sheer application.

Sparkie is right however that the new universities renamed fom being polytechnics in the UK are mostly fairly awful.

[Ulysses G.]

Thailand is home to some of Asia's most respected and prestigious universities. Most second-rate universities in the west are just a laguhing stock in comparison.

I would love to agree with you, but I can't.

Anyone who has taught at a University in Thailand (outside of the two best ones in Bangkok perhaps), knows that the education system here is terrible.

I don't like it, but it is true, and I don't see any way around it.

[ROFL]

Your quote above says that for me to be able to discuss or criticize economic and social issues I need to speak Thai.

Now if you're talking about my having a conversation with a Thai speaker about Thai socio economic issues you have a point but last time I checked every response to this thread has been written in English.

But considering you use the term "viewpoint" many times I can only conclude that you are indeed saying that for anyone to have a valid POV on Thai society and economy one must speak Thai.

Like I said before, that’s was and still is the dumbest thing that’s been said in this thread so far.

By that logic no English speaking person can have an educated POV about any country unless they speak that countries language.

Laughable comes to mind.

You seem to enjoy hearing yourself talking, even if you have nothing to say.

To make it simple:

In order to even beginning to understand Thai specific social and cultural issues you have to understand Thai. You can talk all day long about those issues if you don't speak Thai, but you will still talk superficial issues full of invalid generalisations. As you have done here in this thread.

As valid and interesting as your purely economical analyses of Thailand was, as amateurish was every utterance of yours concerning Thai culture, workethic and psychology.

Yes, by that logic every native English speaker who refuses to learn different languages (or person from wherever who refuses to entertain the though that learning languages is important) has very little grasp of foreign countries who do not use English as one of their official languages.

Are you a *Business Administrator*, by chance...those folks rather often think that they have the wisdom of the world because they can read statistics and economical spreadsheets ...

Listen up people, you cant have a valid POV about any society unless you learn to speak their language.

Leaves me wondering why they bother with Anthropology or Sociology courses at Harvard because according to Mr. Know unless they learn the language first their education is useless.

I know plenty about the Thai work ethic, Thais tell me about it every day. In fact they had a nice article about it in the Bangkok Post last week but it was written in English so it must be total bunk.

I love your logic, I can study about India and my opinion of it would be valid because they speak English but I cant study about the culture of the Yananmo because none of them speak english.

Provide an example of a social or cultural issue that I cannot grasp because I do not speak thai.

OOOOPs I forgot, for you to do that you would have to write it in Thai. But hey give it a try, Id love to see what you come up with.

[markt]

All I know is I’ve never been in a 7-11 in any other country and had one of the clerks point at the other clerk and say "she want to marry farang".

Doh! - I thought that only happened to me.

[OlRedEyes]

Your quote above says that for me to be able to discuss or criticize economic and social issues I need to speak Thai.

Now if you're talking about my having a conversation with a Thai speaker about Thai socio economic issues you have a point but last time I checked every response to this thread has been written in English.

But considering you use the term "viewpoint" many times I can only conclude that you are indeed saying that for anyone to have a valid POV on Thai society and economy one must speak Thai.

Like I said before, that’s was and still is the dumbest thing that’s been said in this thread so far.

By that logic no English speaking person can have an educated POV about any country unless they speak that countries language.

Laughable comes to mind.

You seem to enjoy hearing yourself talking, even if you have nothing to say.

To make it simple:

In order to even beginning to understand Thai specific social and cultural issues you have to understand Thai. You can talk all day long about those issues if you don't speak Thai, but you will still talk superficial issues full of invalid generalisations. As you have done here in this thread.

As valid and interesting as your purely economical analyses of Thailand was, as amateurish was every utterance of yours concerning Thai culture, workethic and psychology.

Yes, by that logic every native English speaker who refuses to learn different languages (or person from wherever who refuses to entertain the though that learning languages is important) has very little grasp of foreign countries who do not use English as one of their official languages.

Are you a *Business Administrator*, by chance...those folks rather often think that they have the wisdom of the world because they can read statistics and economical spreadsheets ...

Listen up people, you cant have a valid POV about any society unless you learn to speak their language.

Leaves me wondering why they bother with Anthropology or Sociology courses at Harvard because according to Mr. Know unless they learn the language first their education is useless.

I know plenty about the Thai work ethic, Thais tell me about it every day. In fact they had a nice article about it in the Bangkok Post last week but it was written in English so it must be total bunk.

I love your logic, I can study about India and my opinion of it would be valid because they speak English but I cant study about the culture of the Yananmo because none of them speak english.

Provide an example of a social or cultural issue that I cannot grasp because I do not speak thai.

OOOOPs I forgot, for you to do that you would have to write it in Thai. But hey give it a try, Id love to see what you come up with.

Hey, be careful of coming to South Africa... We have 11 official languages. Thats only the official ones. Some studying to do....

[ColPyat]

Leaves me wondering why they bother with Anthropology or Sociology courses at Harvard because according to Mr. Know unless they learn the language first their education is useless.

If you know anything about anthropology than you should know that the first thing anthropologists do is learning the language of the culture they do a study on. No anthropologist will undertake a study of the Yanonami - to use your example - without learning the language.

A typical example of why is is so necessary to understand Thai, is that the class division here are huge. What "Thais tell you every day" in English is but one viewpoint of educated Thais, but does not mean anything concerning the experience of Thailand of the vast masses of Thais that have had not the fortune to get a good education.

Nevertheless, their viepoint is more than important to understand the present problems that led to Thailand's status as the eternal underachiever in the region, and furthermore, might help you to find ways to introduce improvements that might one lead people out of the mess they are stuck in.

To understand these issues, you have to be able to directly converse with people of as many socio-economic backgrounds as possible. Not speaking Thai will exclude you from conversing with 90% of the population.

You may be able to do successfully business here (if you have the professional background), but you will not be able to have an educated view on socio-cultural issues beyond the superficial if you don't speak the language.

But if you prefer to get your education on Thai cultural and social issues from rags like the Bangkok Post, and what "Thais tell you every day" (in English, i guess) than every further debate here is fruitless, and a waste of time.

[OlRedEyes]

A very nice 'grassroots up' theoretical approach. But pretty unrealistic as a practical way of forming an opinion. IMHO of course.

[JimsKnight]

Personally I think the Thai Government and Culture is mainly to be blamed by 'missing' the boat and economical slipping further downwards.

I don't know about Malaysia but I've done business in the past with countries like Thailand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and China (apart from Europe and North America).

The difference in business attitude, workmanship, speed, and so many more things which are important to do business, is enormous and a night-and-day difference with Thailand, being Thailand a nightmare, which I left doing business with, after trying for some years.

I'm not the only one since a couple of businessfriends acknowledged the same to me and ALL left Thailand, doing business now in countries like China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea.

De deliveries were a complete disaster and I lost a huge amount of money. And this was with larger companies.

I don't know if any of you visited China in the past few months/years but what's going on there is completely MIND-BOGGLING.

The people...ALL THE PEOPLE...are working so hard that's it is unbelievable.

They have a 'drive' which can't be compared to the Thai in general; the Thai (and I am really sorry to say this) are lazy, in comparison to the Chinese.

I still love Thailand very much...going on Holiday... but not for business anymore.

NO WAY!

Ooops...maybe I've stepped on some toes here

LaoPo

Totally agree with you there mate! Tried business investment in Thailand, too lazy, workers are unreliable and miidly xenophobic towards foreigners trying to make money.

The attitude is short term gain for long term loses. The Thai Chinese who rule the roost are the ones who make the decisions and the working class will continue to act like this. Multicultural it aint.

Its not the way forward. Just one reason for the way thailand is being left behind.

The only thing Thailand has as its trump card is the tourism factor, the money put in from that is probably why foreign investment is neglected by the thais) . Namely the Bar scene, the beaches, coral and the fact its a (relatively) chilled out country (Bhuddist) as opposed to

Islam/Communist/Totalitarian regime.

Edited June 4, 2006 by JimsKnight

[ROFL]

Yawn.

Anyway back on topic,

***disclaimer- this article is written in english and appeared in the rag BP so it probably means nothing because its not written in Thai.....even though you can find its Thai version somwhere which apparently says the same ###### thing....just in a different language.

Economists see hard times ahead

Thais must prepare for 'downturn like 1997'

By Anucha Charoenpo

Leading economists warned yesterday that Thailand could face a new round of economic problems in light of world economic uncertainty. Speaking at the Thai Strategies in the Global Trend seminar, organised by Triam Udom Suksa School yesterday, the economists said Thais should prepare in advance to cope with the possibility of another economic downturn similar to the 1997 crisis.

Supachai: Be careful in entering FTA deals

Virabongsa Ramangura, former finance minister and deputy prime minister, said the economy was on the decline because of world economic uncertainty, particularly in the financial sector.

The world's economic strucuture was changing significantly under the influence of the continuing economic growth of China, India and Russia. Capital flows into and out of the country have increased in volume and become more unpredictable.

''We are worried that if Thailand can't cope with this economic situation in time, the country could run into a new round of economic crisis,'' he said.

He called on the government to come up with austerity programmes to encourage Thais to economise and stop spending lavishly.

He said apart from the uncertainty of the world economy, the rise in energy costs and terrorism threats would also affect domestic growth.

Varakorn Samkoset, rector of Dhurakijbandit University, said the country urgently needed to pay more attention to human development to enable people to cope better with international uncertainty.

The government, he said, will need to find a way to measure the national economic condition more accurately.

The use of GDP figures did not always accurately reflect the economic success people were enjoying, Mr Varakorn said.

Paiboon Wattanasiritham, chairman of the Centre for the Promotion of National Strength on Moral Ethics and Values, said His Majesty the King's self-sufficiency economic policy was an answer as Thailand faced a looming economic crunch.

He vehemently disagreed with a government idea that economic success could bring more happiness to society.

Instead of focusing on gross domestic product, the government should devise a tool to measure the happiness of the people. (this contradicts what he said earlier in red, but hey this is thailand and these crazy Thais speak a different language...so what do I know eh?) This method has been used by Bhutan, he said.

Somkid Jatusripitak, caretaker deputy prime minister and commerce minister, conceded that the government would need to place more emphasis on human development to enable the country to compete with other countries.

The government's ability to develop its people to enable them to attain equality, socially and economically, would be the key to long-term national economic development, he said.

The government will need to promote domestic consumption to enable the economy to be less dependent on exports, he said. Kind of hard to do when folks have no money

There you go, the Thai economy is currently at but expected to go as more and more credit cards are handed out to people earning 15,000 baht a month.

[Ulysses G.]

Thais must prepare for 'downturn like 1997'

Oh oh.

They are even talking about making Banhard the Prime Minister again!

[Siripon]

Which is fair enough - to be in a position to criticise from an educated viewpoint one should be able to speak and understand Thai at least to some level.

HOLY CRAPOLA, thats the dumbest thing that's been said in this thread so far.

So what you're saying is that I cannot have an educated and intelligent viewpoint on Thailand unless I speak THAI?

How can you understand the people if you can only speak to the fluent English speakers? Your viewpoint is limited to articles published in English, ie The Bangkok Post, The Nation plus occasional academic works.

If you can't speak Thai you can't talk to the majority of the population, all you've got is:"I read in an article recently that.....'

[ROFL]

If you know anything about anthropology than you should know that the first thing anthropologists do is learning the language of the culture they do a study on. No anthropologist will undertake a study of the Yanonami - to use your example - without learning the language.

Really? wow I didnt know the 45+ people in my class long ago all spoke Yani.

I guess the same goes for my classmates in my studies of Ancient cultures like the Roman Empire were all closet latin speakers.

Sorry, your theory doesnt hold up, in fact Id say that perhaps the longer you stay here the harder it is to see the "little things" that a fresh pair of eyes can see.

the quote "wow I never noticed that" comes to mind.

[ROFL]

Which is fair enough - to be in a position to criticise from an educated viewpoint one should be able to speak and understand Thai at least to some level.

HOLY CRAPOLA, thats the dumbest thing that's been said in this thread so far.

So what you're saying is that I cannot have an educated and intelligent viewpoint on Thailand unless I speak THAI?

How can you understand the people if you can only speak to the fluent English speakers? Your viewpoint is limited to articles published in English, ie The Bangkok Post, The Nation plus occasional academic works.

If you can't speak Thai you can't talk to the majority of the population, all you've got is:"I read in an article recently that.....'

You're so clueless on so many levels.

Stay on topic...the backasswardness of Thailand.

Oh yeah, make sure you smile tomorrow, the Thai economy needs your help.

Due to the new policy the thai set will no be measured with smileys!

I'll give you the same proposition I gave to COL, give ONE example of Thai culture that I cannot understand or grasp because I do not speak Thai. (careful now, this is a trick question)

Edited June 4, 2006 by ROFL

[chonabot]

After all, several African nations have populations that speak much better English than Thais, Kenya, Zimbabwe, South Africa to name just 3.

.

Probably because English has been the first language of RSA for about 350 years.

[Heng]

The ol' "why isn't takraw more like cricket?" or "why doesn't my rice taste like bread?" thread. If you can't adapt, whingy bitterness is almost inevitable.

Thailand has to adapt to the World, Heng.....it's not about Farang adapting or not to Thailand.

If Thailand doesn't adapt it becomes an island in the World of economic affairs and business and it will loose on all fronts.

LaoPo

Sure it is. Just like most immigration experiences since time immemorial. You adapt to the environment, rarely can one change the actual environment.

[ColPyat]

Really? wow I didnt know the 45+ people in my class long ago all spoke Yani.

I guess the same goes for my classmates in my studies of Ancient cultures like the Roman Empire were all closet latin speakers.

Sorry, your theory doesnt hold up, in fact Id say that perhaps the longer you stay here the harder it is to see the "little things" that a fresh pair of eyes can see.

the quote "wow I never noticed that" comes to mind.

Yes, and now you gonna tell me that the 45+ people in your class did a study on the Yanonami, and not just learned about the studies conducted by an anthropolgist (who most definately spoke their language).

And, i don't know where you studied, but in any civilised place you have to have the large latinum to study ancient cultures such as the Roman Empire on University level.

But i think i will better leave the discussion at this point as this descends increasingly into ad hominem attacks and voicing of irrational gripes of disgruntled people, than a objective analyses why Thailand is in many ways backward, and what could possibly be done about it.

Not that i agree with the economical facts you presented, which i do. But in almost every other aspect you are way off the mark, especially and also concerning manners.

[Heng]

If you can't adapt, whingy bitterness is almost inevitable.

I’m tired of reading over and over again that it’s our failure to adapt to Thai culture that is the cause for Thailand’s economic and social decline.

Yeah, your results may vary. It's still my experience that the biggest whingers and the quickest to criticize the system, the government, anything besides looking towards themselves, BOTH foreigners and locals, are those who can't adapt or just can't cut it (aren't living life at their own expectation levels).

[ROFL]

Really? wow I didnt know the 45+ people in my class long ago all spoke Yani.

I guess the same goes for my classmates in my studies of Ancient cultures like the Roman Empire were all closet latin speakers.

Sorry, your theory doesnt hold up, in fact Id say that perhaps the longer you stay here the harder it is to see the "little things" that a fresh pair of eyes can see.

the quote "wow I never noticed that" comes to mind.

Yes, and now you gonna tell me that the 45+ people in your class did a study on the Yanonami, and not just learned about the studies conducted by an anthropolgist (who most definately spoke their

Now that is funny, LEARNING apparently is no longer UNDERSTANDING.

So let me get this straight, I can LEARN about something but unless I learn the language it means I didnt really LEARN it?

Listen, one doesnt have to do a doctorate on something before one is able to have a valid POV about something as basic as the study or understanding of a countries culture.

Im still waiting for ONE EXAMPLE of Thai culture that I am not capable of understanding because I dont speak Thai.

Whats the problem, one would think you would have quite a long list of examples.

[ROFL]

If you can't adapt, whingy bitterness is almost inevitable.

I’m tired of reading over and over again that it’s our failure to adapt to Thai culture that is the cause for Thailand’s economic and social decline.

Yeah, your results may vary. It's still my experience that the biggest whingers and the quickest to criticize the system, the government, anything besides looking towards themselves, BOTH foreigners and locals, are those who can't adapt or just can't cut it (aren't living life at their own expectation levels).

Agreed.

[Diablo Bob]

Really? wow I didnt know the 45+ people in my class long ago all spoke Yani.

I guess the same goes for my classmates in my studies of Ancient cultures like the Roman Empire were all closet latin speakers.

Sorry, your theory doesnt hold up, in fact Id say that perhaps the longer you stay here the harder it is to see the "little things" that a fresh pair of eyes can see.

the quote "wow I never noticed that" comes to mind.

Yes, and now you gonna tell me that the 45+ people in your class did a study on the Yanonami, and not just learned about the studies conducted by an anthropolgist (who most definately spoke their language).

And, i don't know where you studied, but in any civilised place you have to have the large latinum to study ancient cultures such as the Roman Empire on University level.

But i think i will better leave the discussion at this point as this descends increasingly into ad hominem attacks and voicing of irrational gripes of disgruntled people, than a objective analyses why Thailand is in many ways backward, and what could possibly be done about it.

Not that i agree with the economical facts you presented, which i do. But in almost every other aspect you are way off the mark, especially and also concerning manners.

I think for the purposes of this discussion we aren't really concerned about the Ancient Thai Kingdom, but the current Thai Economic Failures. I don't need to know the Thai Language to determine IF the Thai Government is the problem, they are.

From a technical point of view, I wave worked with Thai engineers for 20+ years and found them to be as knowledgable as any Western educated engineer in the same discipline. So, I doubt if the failure for Thailand to top their neighbors is technical.

From a business point of view, I doubt if Vietnam is nipping at Thailand's heels.

Malaysia is doing OK, but again are they statistically ahead of Thailand, I doubt it......

Singapore, without a doubt the regional leader, with all the associated baggage. The cost of living in SG is enough to choke a horse, eventually regulation and cost will push everything off-shore back to Malaysia and Thailand.

Thailand needs to make the business community comfortable. They have the the technical expertise, they need the support of the government.

English...... Minor problem, not a show stopper.

[ColPyat]

something as basic as the study or understanding of a countries culture.

[jackr]

the sad thing is Thai degrees are not worth the paper they are written on.

Thailand is home to some of Asia's most respected and prestigious universities. Most second-rate universities in the west are just a laguhing stock in comparison.

Where did you get your information from? Thailand is nowhere close to any top university anywhere, except Thailand itself.

Top 3000 Universities

Not even close

That one's bogus for a start. How could Tronno uni and a load of other septic ones possibly be above Oxford and Cambridge? Try this one... a bit more lifelike

[Plus]

... your viewpoint is limited to articles published in English, ie The Bangkok Post, The Nation...

I read in Bangkok Post that Prem himself reads only these two papers and no Thai ones. But yes, it's a valid point - speaking, and especially reading Thai would help.

This "you need to know Thai to post anything worth reading here" discussion is off topic anyway.

Someone wrote on the value of generalisations. This thread is a perfect example - generic farangs say Thailand is backward, generic Thais immediately ask farangs how they dare to say so. With attitudes like this it's obvious why generic Thais won't get off their asses and start doing something - they refuse to admit that there's a problem.

When you point out that there are plenty of well respected Thais who also think Thailand is backward, generic Thais ignore it and continue asking if YOU learned to use toilet hose properly yet.

I mentioned Kasem and Anand, someone else quoted Virabongsa and Pridiyatorn. Will anyone pay any attention to them? Doesn't look so. Now it's all about farangs who refuse to adapt.

[Sing_Sling]

the sad thing is Thai degrees are not worth the paper they are written on.

Thailand is home to some of Asia's most respected and prestigious universities. Most second-rate universities in the west are just a laguhing stock in comparison.

Where did you get your information from? Thailand is nowhere close to any top university anywhere, except Thailand itself.

Top 3000 Universities

Not even close

That one's bogus for a start. How could Tronno uni and a load of other septic ones possibly be above Oxford and Cambridge? Try this one... a bit more lifelike

Any 'Top X' and 'Top Y' means very little in the real world. Most of these things are very Anglo-Centric and follow guidelines set to suit certain parameters.

Having said that - I have seent he results of a Thai Unibversity education and it's quite sad.

Have money, will graduate.

[OldAsiaHand]

Thank you, Plus.

A draft of fresh air in a dank room. Most welcome.

[Q: How many Thais does it take to change a light blub?

A: None. No light blubs are ever burned out.]

[markt]

LOL, next time you're in a group of 20+ "average" THAIS (not university students) ask them "who has read a book, or what are you reading right now"....blank stares is all you'll get.

You should try and play a game of Rock, Paper & Scissors with them !

[Dustoff]

No, most of us concede that there are problems with Thailand. However there's that element of expats and visitors who are here just because they are not able to obtain either love or sex at home, and come here to buy or rent a reasonable facsimilie of it, and then when their shortcut around learning social skills fails they blame the whole country for their lack of success in life. Most people are too polite to say it but lets face it, there are alot of losers in Thailand hiding from the fact that they couldn't make it at home. When they fail here, either financially, or in a relationship, they blame Thailand for everything.

Fortunately there's many here who have seen it as an opportunity, or a second chance and have made the best of it, and appreciate what they've achieved. If you know these people, they're likely the ones who take personal responsibility for their situations, and you will rarely see them blaming other people or countries for their problems.

I'm sick of seeing people with screwed up lives blaming Thailand, or Thai women for all their troubles.

cv

YO! What you SAID, dude!

The inability to be introspective and question why we drag our miserable lives around with us is part and parcel of the human condition, ya?

It's my children, my family, this country, my boss, everyone else's attitude not mine...

The 90's have been described as the "Not Me" decade but I have a feeling that this will extend into the "Not Me" generation...

Look forward to more of the same kinda posts, eh?

[ThaiPauly]

Good to see you back on the board Dustoff... still making sense too!!!

[Guest endure]

the sad thing is Thai degrees are not worth the paper they are written on.

Thailand is home to some of Asia's most respected and prestigious universities. Most second-rate universities in the west are just a laguhing stock in comparison.

Where did you get your information from? Thailand is nowhere close to any top university anywhere, except Thailand itself.

Top 100 Asian Universities 2006

Top 3000 Universities

Not even close

A quote from the Webometrics website:

"The aim of this project is not to rank the institutions according to quality of the education provided nor their academic prestige, so it should not be used for comparing them or as a guide for choosing university by candidate students.

Webometric indicators are provided to show the commitment of the institutions to Web publication and to the worldwide Open Access to knowledge. If the web performance of an institution is below the expected position according to their academic excellence, university authorities should reconsider their web policy, promoting substantial increases in the volume and quality of their electronic publications."

[Martin]

If you see, as I do, the industrialised nations as a bunch of lemmings heading fast for the cliff, you would say "Thank goodness, Thaailand is well back".

Thailand isn't so far down the industrialising tube that it can't back out reasonably intact.

There are difficulties ahead for Thailand, but far more for all the other countries mentioned in this thread (except Bhutan, possibly).

Having been so lucky as to have the opportunity to go back to the situation of generations of my ancestry, i.e. peasantry, and having taken it, I am so far behind that I believe I am ahead.

And a full 60% of Thais are with me, and we can absorb the 40% industrial population back, when the squeeze comes on and tightens and tightens.

With a few rice fields and an IPstar connection, it is a good stress-free life.