"Saving face"

[HeijoshinCool]

Ive been in Thailand for several Months now and have been coming here since 1998.
I really love the country and its people but one thing i have still failed to get my head around is the Thai custom of saving face.
For example, i have seen people blatantly lie and continue to lie even when found out!
It frustrates the hell out of me sometimes. I guess i need to learn how to handle it.
Any suggestions?

What a bunch of ignorant nonsense some people are posting. People who claim to have been here for years and to "know" Thai culture. They should be ashamed, but they're not.

Anyway, MonkeyLoo, read up on the difference between a "guilt culture" and a "shame culture."

It will explain everything.

[MonkeyLoo]

Ive been in Thailand for several Months now and have been coming here since 1998.

I really love the country and its people but one thing i have still failed to get my head around is the Thai custom of saving face.

For example, i have seen people blatantly lie and continue to lie even when found out!

It frustrates the hell out of me sometimes. I guess i need to learn how to handle it.

Any suggestions?

What a bunch of ignorant nonsense some people are posting. People who claim to have been here for years and to "know" Thai culture. They should be ashamed, but they're not.

Anyway, MonkeyLoo, read up on the difference between a "guilt culture" and a "shame culture."

It will explain everything.

Thanks for the entry

I read some interesting articles on the guilt and shame cultures.

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

That link offers a good grounding.

Although i have been coming to Thailand for a while on short visits. Living here and doing business has thrown up new challenges. So gaining a better understanding of the culture is the first step in learning how best to succeed.

Im not trying to change anything just better understand.

As i have said, i do love Thailand and its people. Why else are we all here...

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[HeijoshinCool]

Ive been in Thailand for several Months now and have been coming here since 1998.

I really love the country and its people but one thing i have still failed to get my head around is the Thai custom of saving face.

For example, i have seen people blatantly lie and continue to lie even when found out!

It frustrates the hell out of me sometimes. I guess i need to learn how to handle it.

Any suggestions?

What a bunch of ignorant nonsense some people are posting. People who claim to have been here for years and to "know" Thai culture. They should be ashamed, but they're not.

Anyway, MonkeyLoo, read up on the difference between a "guilt culture" and a "shame culture."

It will explain everything.

Thanks for the entry

I read some interesting articles on the guilt and shame cultures.

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

That link offers a good grounding.

Although i have been coming to Thailand for a while on short visits. Living here and doing business has thrown up new challenges. So gaining a better understanding of the culture is the first step in learning how best to succeed.

Im not trying to change anything just better understand.

As i have said, i do love Thailand and its people. Why else are we all here...

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I remember that link. It's okay, but kind of dances around things. Plus, I'm better with words than pictures (at least, that's what I told my dad when he caught me with a Playboy).

Basically, in a guilt culture (most western cultures), people behave according to an internalized law, such as statutes, or for the religious, say, the Ten Commandments. It's even admirable to admit mistakes or poor choices (at least, it used to be), confession is good for the soul, etc.

But in shame cultures (most Asian cultures), moral imperatives, right over wrong, are not as important as not getting caught, which would bring shame to self or family. Few admit mistakes (the Japanese are a notable exception here.)

While guilt can redeem, shame only punishes.

Based on these assumptions, it's easy to extrapolate what behavior people are likely to engage in, in either society. Both have their pros and cons, too, though I am quite thankful I am from a guilt culture.

A word of warning: while sociologists try to make everything black and white, there is a blending of the cultures, and many different shades. Japanese face, for example, is far, far different than Thai.

[Berkshire]

Thanks for the entry

I read some interesting articles on the guilt and shame cultures.

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

That link offers a good grounding.

Although i have been coming to Thailand for a while on short visits. Living here and doing business has thrown up new challenges. So gaining a better understanding of the culture is the first step in learning how best to succeed.

Im not trying to change anything just better understand.

As i have said, i do love Thailand and its people. Why else are we all here...

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I remember that link. It's okay, but kind of dances around things. Plus, I'm better with words than pictures (at least, that's what I told my dad when he caught me with a Playboy).

Basically, in a guilt culture (most western cultures), people behave according to an internalized law, such as statutes, or for the religious, say, the Ten Commandments. It's even admirable to admit mistakes or poor choices (at least, it used to be), confession is good for the soul, etc.

But in shame cultures (most Asian cultures), moral imperatives, right over wrong, are not as important as not getting caught, which would bring shame to self or family. Few admit mistakes (the Japanese are a notable exception here.)

While guilt can redeem, shame only punishes.

Based on these assumptions, it's easy to extrapolate what behavior people are likely to engage in, in either society. Both have their pros and cons, too, though I am quite thankful I am from a guilt culture.

A word of warning: while sociologists try to make everything black and white, there is a blending of the cultures, and many different shades. Japanese face, for example, is far, far different than Thai.

These are fairly broad generalizations, but you are correct to a degree. This is tip-of-the-iceberg stuff when talking about differences in culture. You also have to consider the differences between individualistic vs. collectivist cultures, view of time, materialism, role of religion and family, etc. The thing is one can't always assume that his own culture is superior to that of another, which is what happens so often on these threads.

[NoThainess4U]

best example I can offer:

I know a girl, a lovely girl, very well liked, respected and sought after by many thai men,

good family, many many friends,

just one thing tho,

she is a prostitute, and none of her friends know, her brother doesnt know,

the men pursuing her for marriage and children don't know,

but I know,

I watch her lie to everyone she knows, because, she will lose face,

so,

what about the guy that eventually marries her,

she has been with what, 2,000, 3,000 men?

some poor thai schmuck, is going to marry her, and have children with her, and, the mother will lie to him, because she knows,

and the wife will lie to him, forever,

some culture this asian race of face

[I Like Thai]

best example I can offer:

I know a girl, a lovely girl, very well liked, respected and sought after by many thai men,

good family, many many friends,

just one thing tho,

she is a prostitute, and none of her friends know, her brother doesnt know,

the men pursuing her for marriage and children don't know,

but I know,

I watch her lie to everyone she knows, because, she will lose face,

so,

what about the guy that eventually marries her,

she has been with what, 2,000, 3,000 men?

some poor thai schmuck, is going to marry her, and have children with her, and, the mother will lie to him, because she knows,

and the wife will lie to him, forever,

some culture this asian race of face

Yes, Most farangs are just perfect aren't they. The guy who ends up marrying her will be a virgin who should be nominated for a Noble prize for sainthood. He only comes to Thailand for the beaches and sunshine.

Maybe if he spends time to actually get to know the girl, then he will find out her true character. Just maybe it might be better than you imagine also, if not then it will be her new husbands fault for picking her in the first place.

[AYJAYDEE]

best example I can offer:

I know a girl, a lovely girl, very well liked, respected and sought after by many thai men,

good family, many many friends,

just one thing tho,

she is a prostitute, and none of her friends know, her brother doesnt know,

the men pursuing her for marriage and children don't know,

but I know,

I watch her lie to everyone she knows, because, she will lose face,

so,

what about the guy that eventually marries her,

she has been with what, 2,000, 3,000 men?

some poor thai schmuck, is going to marry her, and have children with her, and, the mother will lie to him, because she knows,

and the wife will lie to him, forever,

some culture this asian race of face

and if she's a bargirl, how is this poor man gonna meet her in the first place?

[livinthailandos]

Not been here as long as the OP but can say without a doubt saving face is one of the things I don't think you ever really adjust to. I can only say from experience

1. If you have to talk with Thais or deal with them keep conversation very simple. Basic questions only. How are you, have you eaten.

As saving face is very important its better to avoid certain dialogues or discussions at all costs simply because it becomes pointless and its a waste of time. Also As long as you remember to zero expectations of thai people here you'll do fine.

[AYJAYDEE]

Not been here as long as the OP but can say without a doubt saving face is one of the things I don't think you ever really adjust to. I can only say from experience

1. If you have to talk with Thais or deal with them keep conversation very simple. Basic questions only. How are you, have you eaten.

As saving face is very important its better to avoid certain dialogues or discussions at all costs simply because it becomes pointless and its a waste of time. Also As long as you remember to zero expectations of thai people here you'll do fine.

not been here long? it's obvious

[NoThainess4U]

best example I can offer:

I know a girl, a lovely girl, very well liked, respected and sought after by many thai men,

good family, many many friends,

just one thing tho,

she is a prostitute, and none of her friends know, her brother doesnt know,

the men pursuing her for marriage and children don't know,

but I know,

I watch her lie to everyone she knows, because, she will lose face,

so,

what about the guy that eventually marries her,

she has been with what, 2,000, 3,000 men?

some poor thai schmuck, is going to marry her, and have children with her, and, the mother will lie to him, because she knows,

and the wife will lie to him, forever,

some culture this asian race of face

and if she's a bargirl, how is this poor man gonna meet her in the first place?

did i say bar girl?

she works far from home and friends

she meets men every weekend w her friends

none know

[AYJAYDEE]

best example I can offer:

I know a girl, a lovely girl, very well liked, respected and sought after by many thai men,

good family, many many friends,

just one thing tho,

she is a prostitute, and none of her friends know, her brother doesnt know,

the men pursuing her for marriage and children don't know,

but I know,

I watch her lie to everyone she knows, because, she will lose face,

so,

what about the guy that eventually marries her,

she has been with what, 2,000, 3,000 men?

some poor thai schmuck, is going to marry her, and have children with her, and, the mother will lie to him, because she knows,

and the wife will lie to him, forever,

some culture this asian race of face

and if she's a bargirl, how is this poor man gonna meet her in the first place?

did i say bar girl?

she works far from home and friends

she meets men every weekend w her friends

none know

a prostitute takes time off togther with friends to meet foreign men and go with them for free?? lol

[NoThainess4U]

best example I can offer:

I know a girl, a lovely girl, very well liked, respected and sought after by many thai men,

good family, many many friends,

just one thing tho,

she is a prostitute, and none of her friends know, her brother doesnt know,

the men pursuing her for marriage and children don't know,

but I know,

I watch her lie to everyone she knows, because, she will lose face,

so,

what about the guy that eventually marries her,

she has been with what, 2,000, 3,000 men?

some poor thai schmuck, is going to marry her, and have children with her, and, the mother will lie to him, because she knows,

and the wife will lie to him, forever,

some culture this asian race of face

and if she's a bargirl, how is this poor man gonna meet her in the first place?

did i say bar girl?

she works far from home and friends

she meets men every weekend w her friends

none know

a prostitute takes time off togther with friends to meet foreign men and go with them for free?? lol

yes for free

they "invest" their time, in the hopes they found the dream,

however,

this girl had no initial interest in farange,

her deceptions, oh, sorry, face savers,

are strictly for the thai men she meets,

we know better

[AYJAYDEE]

lol! speaking of dreamers!!

[evadgib]

I had an idiot do a U turn on a motorcy yesterday who as usual failed to acknowledge wrongdoing when my short blast of horn woke him up sufficiently to prevent him seeing the underside of my car. Fortunately he was wearing a T shirt proclaiming his stupidity on the back. It read "Chopper 1"

I couldn't agree more

[tifino]

he would have lost face if you got to see the brown skidmark he left inside his pants.....

[Thai at Heart]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

[AYJAYDEE]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

sounds like they solved a problem

[MonkeyLoo]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

It is a concern that if Thais do not face up to mistakes and failings do they never learn and just repeat over and over. I can see how you would want to leave if that was the case in your relationships.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[AYJAYDEE]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

It is a concern that if Thais do not face up to mistakes and failings do they never learn and just repeat over and over. I can see how you would want to leave if that was the case in your relationships.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

saving face has nothing to do with learning from your mistakes.

[Thai at Heart]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

sounds like they solved a problem

If I was the problem, well.

If people you have had in your home can quite so willfully be liberal with the truth of something that effects your children, after knowing them closely for 10 years so be it.

I am quite lucky with my wife. After knowing her for nearly 15 years, she has understood that thainess stops at our doorstep. Saving face to feel better now has a terrible cost in the end.

She won't speak to that couple ever again. Its not I who is the problem it is the idea that failing.or doing wrong personally is something that has to be denied and ignored.

How can anyone trust anyone as a friend if the entire premise that they will lie to make themselves look better. About anything.

Ergo, true friends are few and far between and be very careful who you trust in Thailand.

[AYJAYDEE]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

sounds like they solved a problem

If I was the problem, well.

If people you have had in your home can quite so willfully be liberal with the truth of something that effects your children, after knowing them closely for 10 years so be it.

I am quite lucky with my wife. After knowing her for nearly 15 years, she has understood that thainess stops at our doorstep. Saving face to feel better now has a terrible cost in the end.

She won't speak to that couple ever again. Its not I who is the problem it is the idea that failing.or doing wrong personally is something that has to be denied and ignored.

How can anyone trust anyone as a friend if the entire premise that they will lie to make themselves look better. About anything.

Ergo, true friends are few and far between and be very careful who you trust in Thailand.

well, i suggest you re-evaluate your own behaviour because I and most of my friends have been here far longer than you without these "problems". i suggest you google : quotes by pogo.

[MonkeyLoo]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

sounds like they solved a problem

If I was the problem, well.

If people you have had in your home can quite so willfully be liberal with the truth of something that effects your children, after knowing them closely for 10 years so be it.

I am quite lucky with my wife. After knowing her for nearly 15 years, she has understood that thainess stops at our doorstep. Saving face to feel better now has a terrible cost in the end.

She won't speak to that couple ever again. Its not I who is the problem it is the idea that failing.or doing wrong personally is something that has to be denied and ignored.

How can anyone trust anyone as a friend if the entire premise that they will lie to make themselves look better. About anything.

Ergo, true friends are few and far between and be very careful who you trust in Thailand.

well, i suggest you re-evaluate your own behaviour because I and most of my friends have been here far longer than you without these "problems". i suggest you google : quotes by pogo.

Saving face does not breed trust. Once trust is lost it is very difficult to regain. Especially if the person continues to "save face".

Its a sure way to destruction. But is it going to change? No.

With this obsticle, its no suprise that Thailand is a nation unblemished by achievement.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thai at Heart]

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

sounds like they solved a problem

If I was the problem, well.

If people you have had in your home can quite so willfully be liberal with the truth of something that effects your children, after knowing them closely for 10 years so be it.

I am quite lucky with my wife. After knowing her for nearly 15 years, she has understood that thainess stops at our doorstep. Saving face to feel better now has a terrible cost in the end.

She won't speak to that couple ever again. Its not I who is the problem it is the idea that failing.or doing wrong personally is something that has to be denied and ignored.

How can anyone trust anyone as a friend if the entire premise that they will lie to make themselves look better. About anything.

Ergo, true friends are few and far between and be very careful who you trust in Thailand.

well, i suggest you re-evaluate your own behaviour because I and most of my friends have been here far longer than you without these "problems". i suggest you google : quotes by pogo.

I lived very happily for 18 years. Let's say, being let down was the clincher. I had few if any real problems and it was a combination of many factors as to why I left.

I was doing business, bringing up 2 very happy kids and living very nicely think you. I did not fit the standard profile of most falangs. I came to Thailand with an MNC at 22 years old.

Face is not a good thing for Thailand I believe. I am not going to change it and I don't expect Thais to change because I think its a problem. I am just pointing out to people who want to listen that it can become an issue even with people you have known for a very very long time.

I don't understand why you think it's a problem to realise that face can be an issue. Its not my creation that Thais have face, its their concept.

If you don't think its important to understand how strong the pull to tell a white lie to hide a serious truth can be in thailand, that's up to you.

Stay ignorant of the culture. That's your choice.

[draftvader]

Fortunately im british. We dont play the face game so much, but we do skirt around the flower garden a little. Just learn to be indirect or 'diplomatic' and voila, you understand 'face'. If you still dont understand, spend a month with copies of yes minister/prime minister and watch Sir Humphrey until you get the general gist.

im a brit too,

but im not sure i agree with this,

you live in a street, go buy a new car, i bet there would bo some down that street go and get a new car even if it skint them or on tick, just to show face, like we can afford one too,

i used to call it keeping up with the johnes,

ive seen it mant times, new conservetory,,, next door get one,,,

its all face

I'm a Brit too and in our culture there are a couple of expressions we seem to be forgetting.

"Cutting off the nose to spite the face"

"Saving face"

"suffered a loss of face"

Indeed most of these come from our colonial times in China where we picked up the concepts however they have been endemic in our culture for over 150 years and, as such, have become quite British. I does bug me when I hear Brits not getting the face concept that is quite prevalent in our own culture. On another note have you noticed how Thais who don't have much to say to you but want to be polite turn to the weather for a conversation piece? It might take 2 more steps than it does back home but I have to say that I have found more about Thai culture that is similar to our own than opposed.

Edited June 7, 2014 by draftvader

[ppmacready]

Soutpeel, you really are a tosser. 14,000+ comments and the best you can cotribute is "stay in your own country". As i am sure your parents taught you that if you do not have something good to say then do not say anything. Yes i am being a hypocrite but cannot help myself. Ignorant people like you p#ss me off. If i could be bothered i would go back all your other posts and can imagine they would all be of the same high standard of contribution. In fact I read your 2 other posts on this topic and they contributed absolutely nothing. Then again I guess with 14000 plus posts you dont get out very often and communicate in real life to people, just do it all from behind a screen. Turn off the computer and go outside occasionally and you will see that the world isnt quite like it was when you left it for a computer.

I've noticed a lot of guys like that on here.

Didn't they sit at the back of the class, make a noise and throw things?

[Foxter]

I can only comment on Brits , I find it amazing that at home some Brits complain that people living in their country don't try to speak English and learn the culture

Yet when they go abroad , don't try to speak the local language or understand their culture .

There is an expression

What's good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander.

So saying I don't give a @@@@ when living in their country , is in it's self disrespectful

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[AYJAYDEE]

I lived very happily for 18 years. Let's say, being let down was the clincher. I had few if any real problems and it was a combination of many factors as to why I left.

I was doing business, bringing up 2 very happy kids and living very nicely think you. I did not fit the standard profile of most falangs. I came to Thailand with an MNC at 22 years old.

Face is not a good thing for Thailand I believe. I am not going to change it and I don't expect Thais to change because I think its a problem. I am just pointing out to people who want to listen that it can become an issue even with people you have known for a very very long time.

I don't understand why you think it's a problem to realise that face can be an issue. Its not my creation that Thais have face, its their concept.

If you don't think its important to understand how strong the pull to tell a white lie to hide a serious truth can be in thailand, that's up to you.

Stay ignorant of the culture. That's your choice.

with equal experience to you and no problems, i obviously have a better grasp than you. your problem is particular to your relationship. period

[benalibina]

I lived very happily for 18 years. Let's say, being let down was the clincher. I had few if any real problems and it was a combination of many factors as to why I left.

I was doing business, bringing up 2 very happy kids and living very nicely think you. I did not fit the standard profile of most falangs. I came to Thailand with an MNC at 22 years old.

Face is not a good thing for Thailand I believe. I am not going to change it and I don't expect Thais to change because I think its a problem. I am just pointing out to people who want to listen that it can become an issue even with people you have known for a very very long time.

I don't understand why you think it's a problem to realise that face can be an issue. Its not my creation that Thais have face, its their concept.

If you don't think its important to understand how strong the pull to tell a white lie to hide a serious truth can be in thailand, that's up to you.

Stay ignorant of the culture. That's your choice.

with equal experience to you and no problems, i obviously have a better grasp than you. your problem is particular to your relationship. period

There are no boundaries for you to keep writing these nonsensical defensive posts apparantly. Time for you maybe to understand the 2 sides of the coin instead of attacking people who have had different experiences than you or who are maybe more openminded.

[AYJAYDEE]

I lived very happily for 18 years. Let's say, being let down was the clincher. I had few if any real problems and it was a combination of many factors as to why I left.

I was doing business, bringing up 2 very happy kids and living very nicely think you. I did not fit the standard profile of most falangs. I came to Thailand with an MNC at 22 years old.

Face is not a good thing for Thailand I believe. I am not going to change it and I don't expect Thais to change because I think its a problem. I am just pointing out to people who want to listen that it can become an issue even with people you have known for a very very long time.

I don't understand why you think it's a problem to realise that face can be an issue. Its not my creation that Thais have face, its their concept.

If you don't think its important to understand how strong the pull to tell a white lie to hide a serious truth can be in thailand, that's up to you.

Stay ignorant of the culture. That's your choice.

with equal experience to you and no problems, i obviously have a better grasp than you. your problem is particular to your relationship. period

There are no boundaries for you to keep writing these nonsensical defensive posts apparantly. Time for you maybe to understand the 2 sides of the coin instead of attacking people who have had different experiences than you or who are maybe more openminded.

lol

[benalibina]

I lived very happily for 18 years. Let's say, being let down was the clincher. I had few if any real problems and it was a combination of many factors as to why I left.

I was doing business, bringing up 2 very happy kids and living very nicely think you. I did not fit the standard profile of most falangs. I came to Thailand with an MNC at 22 years old.

Face is not a good thing for Thailand I believe. I am not going to change it and I don't expect Thais to change because I think its a problem. I am just pointing out to people who want to listen that it can become an issue even with people you have known for a very very long time.

I don't understand why you think it's a problem to realise that face can be an issue. Its not my creation that Thais have face, its their concept.

If you don't think its important to understand how strong the pull to tell a white lie to hide a serious truth can be in thailand, that's up to you.

Stay ignorant of the culture. That's your choice.

with equal experience to you and no problems, i obviously have a better grasp than you. your problem is particular to your relationship. period

There are no boundaries for you to keep writing these nonsensical defensive posts apparantly. Time for you maybe to understand the 2 sides of the coin instead of attacking people who have had different experiences than you or who are maybe more openminded.

lol

To add....the people who see the consequences of FACE ....ill bet you that they never ever in their life wished to have encountered it. Like you. Edited June 7, 2014 by benalibina