I have a job that allows me to work from anywhere.

[iphad]

I am guessing anyone with a online business has a bank account linked probably with paypal and any money made is deposited in their country...probably hosted on a server outside of Thailand ...

so they would be paying tax in their respective country along with the tax benefits for a business.

Any other good arguments against working online?

[KonaRain]

Nicer..? Where..

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited June 14, 2014 by KonaRain

[impulse]

If the OP chooses to do what you sound like you want to do, you’ll be one of thousands of foreigners making their living on the interweb in Thailand. They’re working illegally, but as it stands they have very low probability of getting caught and deported as long as they keep it on the interweb.

...

And sooner or later, Thailand is going to do a deal with the NSA (and the IRS) to catch all the interweb guys working illegally from Thailand- if only to get the taxes they should have been paying.

What is the 'interweb'?

I am constantly getting corrected by people who tell me the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" are not the same thing (you idiot, you). The Interweb is my way of confessing I don't know care about the difference.

[NanLaew]

If the OP chooses to do what you sound like you want to do, you’ll be one of thousands of foreigners making their living on the interweb in Thailand. They’re working illegally, but as it stands they have very low probability of getting caught and deported as long as they keep it on the interweb.

...

And sooner or later, Thailand is going to do a deal with the NSA (and the IRS) to catch all the interweb guys working illegally from Thailand- if only to get the taxes they should have been paying.

What is the 'interweb'?

I am constantly getting corrected by people who tell me the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" are not the same thing (you idiot, you). The Interweb is my way of confessing I don't know care about the difference.

Fair enough. Just checking that I am not missing out on the next big thing (which happens a lot when in ones dotage).

[bangkoklasse]

I am guessing anyone with a online business has a bank account linked probably with paypal and any money made is deposited in their country...probably hosted on a server outside of Thailand ...

so they would be paying tax in their respective country along with the tax benefits for a business.

Any other good arguments against working online?

It's illegal. That's a rather good argument against it

[impulse]

If the OP chooses to do what you sound like you want to do, you’ll be one of thousands of foreigners making their living on the interweb in Thailand. They’re working illegally, but as it stands they have very low probability of getting caught and deported as long as they keep it on the interweb.

...

And sooner or later, Thailand is going to do a deal with the NSA (and the IRS) to catch all the interweb guys working illegally from Thailand- if only to get the taxes they should have been paying.

What is the 'interweb'?

I am constantly getting corrected by people who tell me the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" are not the same thing (you idiot, you). The Interweb is my way of confessing I don't know care about the difference.

Fair enough. Just checking that I am not missing out on the next big thing (which happens a lot when in ones dotage).

Turnabout being fair play, what's "ones dotage"?

[JLCrab]

My favorite post this topic is the one suggesting what answers one can give to an IMM Officer's query as to your source of funds while living in Thailand when you are working onliine in Thailand other than that you are working online while living in Thailand:

It could be stock dividends, funds from a sugar daddy/mummy, someone paying back a loan or they could simply be wealthy

[impulse]

If the OP chooses to do what you sound like you want to do, you’ll be one of thousands of foreigners making their living on the interweb in Thailand. They’re working illegally, but as it stands they have very low probability of getting caught and deported as long as they keep it on the interweb.

...

And sooner or later, Thailand is going to do a deal with the NSA (and the IRS) to catch all the interweb guys working illegally from Thailand- if only to get the taxes they should have been paying.

What is the 'interweb'?

More to the point, The NSA and IRS have no jurisdiction over non US citizens, so maybe impulse should rephrase his comment, and say they will go after US citizens working illegally from Thailand, all other nationalities can tell the IRS to kiss their posteriors

I should have probably been more nation neutral. Let me try again.

1) There are entities out there that hoover up every bit and byte that we all send and receive. They sell that information on to marketing companies that may want to know, perhaps, that I am an old guy who likes fishing and tend to buy my fishing gear in the first week of the month. Or I have high blood pressure and may succumb to pitches for supplements that lower blood pressure- and could possibly be enticed to switch hospitals in BKK by an offer of a low cost EKG.

2) Every country has some kind of taxing entity that is probably losing revenue for lack of information about business being conducted in those very bits and bytes.

3) Seems reasonable to believe that the information guys and the taxing guys may work out some kind of an arrangement that benefits both of them. And then plans like the OP has put forward would be a risky way to craft a life for himself for the long term. Probably safe today, but the direction the taxing authorities are headed, it could eventually spell trouble for Interweb workers who haven't gotten their ducks in a row. And these things usually end up having some retroactive component with horrendous interest and penalties.

[NanLaew]

If the OP chooses to do what you sound like you want to do, you’ll be one of thousands of foreigners making their living on the interweb in Thailand. They’re working illegally, but as it stands they have very low probability of getting caught and deported as long as they keep it on the interweb.

...

And sooner or later, Thailand is going to do a deal with the NSA (and the IRS) to catch all the interweb guys working illegally from Thailand- if only to get the taxes they should have been paying.

What is the 'interweb'?

More to the point, The NSA and IRS have no jurisdiction over non US citizens, so maybe impulse should rephrase his comment, and say they will go after US citizens working illegally from Thailand, all other nationalities can tell the IRS to kiss their posteriors

I should have probably been more nation neutral. Let me try again.

1) There are entities out there that hoover up every bit and byte that we all send and receive. They sell that information on to marketing companies that may want to know, perhaps, that I am an old guy who likes fishing and tend to buy my fishing gear in the first week of the month. Or I have high blood pressure and may succumb to pitches for supplements that lower blood pressure- and could possibly be enticed to switch hospitals in BKK by an offer of a low cost EKG.

2) Every country has some kind of taxing entity that is probably losing revenue for lack of information about business being conducted in those very bits and bytes.

3) Seems reasonable to believe that the information guys and the taxing guys may work out some kind of an arrangement that benefits both of them. And then plans like the OP has put forward would be a risky way to craft a life for himself for the long term. Probably safe today, but the direction the taxing authorities are headed, it could eventually spell trouble for Interweb workers who haven't gotten their ducks in a row. And these things usually end up having some retroactive component with horrendous interest and penalties.

In the same way as the IRS hi-jacked the US Government's system of having a unique, personal ID (Social Security Number), there's absolutely nothing to stop any government leveraging whatever technology is out their to their own benefit.

This recent shambles with UK passport renewals for citizens domiciled overseas has one very inflexible requirement and that is proof of where you are actually living. I don't think for one minute that the passport office in the UK really cares if you have a condo in Jomtien or pied-à-terre in Pimlico but someone with access to their data certainly does. The same thing happened (still happening) in the US where under the guise of the Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security managed to tag individuals 'flying under the radar' that had absolutely no terrorist inclinations. The IRS lapped that up.

The basic premise is that if you are alive, you need to be paying taxes somewhere. Dual taxation treaties were seen as a way of avoiding double taxation and saving the individual money but now the authorities that ratified them worry that they allow the individual to select the lower taxation option, ie. government wants to decide how much they get, not the taxpayer. The same with the debate spurred in the UK when some celebrities were found to be utilising unorthodox techniques to reduce their tax exposure. There'a very thin and quite blurred line between tax mitigation and tax avoidance these days.

Until recently, I thought my ducks were in a row but if they are making things more arduous for the seasoned tax bottler, the newbie is already an imperiled species.

Edited June 15, 2014 by NanLaew

[balo]

If you still have one foot in your home country , yes you need to pay some taxes. If you own a small business you still pay taxes to the country , even if you're not living there.

So shouldn't be a problem really .

[moe666]

If the OP doesn't work for a Thai entity, doesn't get paid in Thailand, doesn't get the money into a Thai bank, how could one say he is working here? He is merely shaking his fists and randomly tapping something on the keyboard, just like drinking water or eating from a plate.

If he is on a tourist visa and working he is in violation of the law, if he is on a Ed visa and working he is in violation of the law. Do not give information that could get people into trouble all it takes is a call to immigration and the random typing on the keyboard will come to an end.

[moe666]

Well, it is in Germany and I guess many other countries.

As a spouse of a German citizen you have immediately more (business) rights and options than someone who is not married to a German citizen (and is not from the EU or other privileged countries)

open your business in Germany then Thailand will not change its rules because you say but in Germany.

[moe666]

On the phone issue yes you can get a program from T-mobile that will allow you to answer your US phone in Thailand without paying roaming fees, a friend was visiting last year and he had it set up on his US phone.

[JLCrab]

from Post #129: The basic premise is that if you are alive, you need to be paying taxes somewhere.

Not true.

[Soutpeel]

from Post #129: The basic premise is that if you are alive, you need to be paying taxes somewhere.

Not true.

Correct but the options are getting fewer by the year

[balo]

If the OP doesn't work for a Thai entity, doesn't get paid in Thailand, doesn't get the money into a Thai bank, how could one say he is working here? He is merely shaking his fists and randomly tapping something on the keyboard, just like drinking water or eating from a plate.

If he is on a tourist visa and working he is in violation of the law, if he is on a Ed visa and working he is in violation of the law. Do not give information that could get people into trouble all it takes is a call to immigration and the random typing on the keyboard will come to an end.

So if you're on facebook and chatting to a potential customer in Europe like I do a few times every week I am breaking the law. You know it sounds very silly when you all the time says "he is in violation of the law". This is not normal work in Thailand. It's more like chatting with your friends, only their your customers. And it can't be stopped unless someone cut the internet line.

I'd like to see that happening to a wealthy foreigner living in Thailand and suddenly he will be reported to immigraton because he had a very important business meeting on his phone.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NanLaew]

from Post #129: The basic premise is that if you are alive, you need to be paying taxes somewhere.

Not true.

Maybe you misunderstood my comment as being my opinion. My opinion is far from it. However, it is the opinion of the tax authorities of most major economies and a growing number of not so major ones.

My joust with US Immigration 5-years ago confirmed this. Yes, the lowly Immigration Officer raised the very simple question, "Then where do you pay taxes?" when he was confronted by a non-US resident, non-US citizen who owned a house and a truck and had an office in the city but didn't live in the US or even have a visa.

[samran]

You are right ParadiseLost.

The EU/German laws are more draconian to e.g. most Thai people than the other way round.

But here we were talking about married couples of Thai - Farang nationality and how their countries support them in their natural pursuit to take care of their families.

While I think foreigner married to Thai citizens should get automatic work rights, I think them not getting those rights is a red herring. For the most part, most foreigners wouldn't want to work for Thai wages and most certainly don't have the key skill you generally need to do well - a grip of the Thai language.

Frankly, running my own business here (granted Thai citizen) if you can't meet the low hurdle set in terms of employing two Thai employees at minimum wage (of which your wife could be one) then I think the business idea probably isn't a great one to start with.

[NanLaew]

from Post #129: The basic premise is that if you are alive, you need to be paying taxes somewhere.

Not true.

Correct but the options are getting fewer by the year

Damn skippy they are!

[Pattaya46]

... You need to be paying taxes somewhere...

Easier to say than to do!

- My origin country tax office told me they are not interested by me anymore since I live permanently in Thailand;

- Thailand taxes office told me they are not interested either as no money is paid in Thailand;

- I can't be paid in Thailand.

So how do I do ?

[JLCrab]

from Post #129: The basic premise is that if you are alive, you need to be paying taxes somewhere.

Not true.

Correct but the options are getting fewer by the year

Damn skippy they are!

Maybe you just need a better accountant.

[tfranz]

You are right ParadiseLost.

The EU/German laws are more draconian to e.g. most Thai people than the other way round.

But here we were talking about married couples of Thai - Farang nationality and how their countries support them in their natural pursuit to take care of their families.

While I think foreigner married to Thai citizens should get automatic work rights, I think them not getting those rights is a red herring. For the most part, most foreigners wouldn't want to work for Thai wages and most certainly don't have the key skill you generally need to do well - a grip of the Thai language.

Frankly, running my own business here (granted Thai citizen) if you can't meet the low hurdle set in terms of employing two Thai employees at minimum wage (of which your wife could be one) then I think the business idea probably isn't a great one to start with.

Good point, samran.

Although I have read so many different reports and/or experiences (or at least that is what is stuck in my mind at the moment after reading on thaivisa.com a lot).

Especially about

- the number of employees needed (2-4 depending on the office that you deal with ... married or not ... and this according to immigration law or regarding to a work permit)

- the amount of hours (fulltime, parttime) and/or the minumum wage per month (not per hour) the employees have to get

- if the wife can own 51% and on top be one of the employees

- what kind of work the employees have to do (directly connected to the business purpose or can they (all) be gardener, cleaning staff, etc.)

- if a business address other than the "own" house or apartment is needed (if not where are the employees supposed to work and what happens if the Thai officials come for a visit as I have read somewhere)

...

[tfranz]

Oh, and maybe as an addition to the previous post.

I see Thai language as very important too. My Thai is not too bad and improving but not now on a business meeting level.

But then again my wife could do most of the office management things.

But ... most of the customers would be in Europe or USA anyway.

And I guess the computer savvy folks in Bangkok can talk about what they do in English since they have to program in English anyway.

[JB300]

If the OP doesn't work for a Thai entity, doesn't get paid in Thailand, doesn't get the money into a Thai bank, how could one say he is working here? He is merely shaking his fists and randomly tapping something on the keyboard, just like drinking water or eating from a plate.

If he is on a tourist visa and working he is in violation of the law, if he is on a Ed visa and working he is in violation of the law. Do not give information that could get people into trouble all it takes is a call to immigration and the random typing on the keyboard will come to an end.

So if you're on facebook and chatting to a potential customer in Europe like I do a few times every week I am breaking the law. You know it sounds very silly when you all the time says "he is in violation of the law". This is not normal work in Thailand. It's more like chatting with your friends, only their your customers. And it can't be stopped unless someone cut the internet line.

I'd like to see that happening to a wealthy foreigner living in Thailand and suddenly he will be reported to immigraton because he had a very important business meeting on his phone.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Again, the OP has made it clear that he wants to live & work from Thailand for 6 months-to-indefinitely, which isn't the same as chatting to a few customers on Facebook, but if this is how you earn you're living (in which case I suspect there's much more involved than just chatting on FB ) then it is illegal, though there's no chance of being caught.

However, it only takes 1 immigration officer to not be happy with your answer to how you support yourself & you could be refused entry or even blacklisted, nobody is saying this is fair or sensible but since when have immigration/tax laws been either.

But I do think things are changing & a lot of digital nomads who use "Out-In" Visa runs and/or back-2-back Tourist Visas are going to struggle, so may need to consider getting a work permit via a BOI "Umbrella" type arrangement, an Investment Visa or the Thailand Elite card (assuming they can't go down the Retirement, Marriage or Thai dependent Visa route and they want to stay living in Thailand).

Edited June 16, 2014 by JB300

[ToYoungToRetire]

I'd be more concerned about avoiding overstay and not falling in love with a bargirl while he's here.

I am to young to retire, but I'm not so young that I will far for bar girl . I came to thailand and talked to many expats before hitting the streets, I knew the game before the bar girls had a chance. That being said I do love the night life, but I also love the Buddhist People/Religion.

When I became interested in Thailand it was after my studies of the buddhist religion and my desire to meet Buddhist people. After spending a few years looking at places to go I found the nightlife scene in Patong desirable, I didnt even know about Chang Mai or Pattaya until was already in Thailand.

It is also a very moderate climate where I am from, thailand especially main land is extremely hot for me. Patong was extremely hot for me, Bangkok and Pattaya were another 10C hotter...

Anyhow thanks for all of the advice.

I think I have three options.

1. Find a lawyer in thialand and legally start IT business in Thailand.

2. Marry a Thai woman, at the present time I have no thai woman to marry or real desire to be married. (I have never been married)

3. Not live in thialand, but visit for 6 months (3 month at visit) a year and keep working in America.

[SDM0712]

I think we are all adult and intelligent enough to know that you are not taking a job away from a Thai, are not doing business in Thailand so in effect are not working in Thailand

What we know, or believe, is as irrelevant as our opinions and interpretation of the rules. The Law is specific and unaffected, we cannot do any form of work here without a work permit, there are no caveats or exceptions.

Although I think this is a really interesting point and wonder if " cyber"' work done electronically in another country from here has ever been tested legally in terms of working without a permit. It could be quite easily argued that to work over the internet is no different in principle from a holiday maker answering an email on a smartphone or making/receiving a telephone call from his work at home, but is that in itself illegal, probably yes technically.

However the point is that we cannot work here without a work permit, and although the cyber activities result in money being generated in another country we are physically here and engaged in a working activity here, even if that work has no impact here. The Law does not say we cannot engage in a working activity if that activity takes a job away from a Thai, it just says we can't work.

It must be extremely difficult if not impossible to prove if the person working is using cloud based software and systems where the servers are abroad in anycase.

SDM

Edited June 16, 2014 by SDM0712

[SDM0712]

What is the 'interweb'?

I am constantly getting corrected by people who tell me the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" are not the same thing (you idiot, you). The Interweb is my way of confessing I don't know care about the difference.

A word of my creation that is meaningless outside my brain, but I think it's a sensible creation that I'm trying to introduce into everyday conversation. I did also try to introduce the word "Interwebulator" to mean a machine that accessed the internet, but that didn't take either.

SDM

PS I've worked with computers and the internet for twenty years and I also thought the World Wide Web and internet were them same thing. Having said that who really cares.

Edited June 16, 2014 by SDM0712

[iphad]

I'd be more concerned about avoiding overstay and not falling in love with a bargirl while he's here.

I am to young to retire, but I'm not so young that I will far for bar girl . I came to thailand and talked to many expats before hitting the streets, I knew the game before the bar girls had a chance. That being said I do love the night life, but I also love the Buddhist People/Religion.

When I became interested in Thailand it was after my studies of the buddhist religion and my desire to meet Buddhist people. After spending a few years looking at places to go I found the nightlife scene in Patong desirable, I didnt even know about Chang Mai or Pattaya until was already in Thailand.

It is also a very moderate climate where I am from, thailand especially main land is extremely hot for me. Patong was extremely hot for me, Bangkok and Pattaya were another 10C hotter...

Anyhow thanks for all of the advice.

I think I have three options.

1. Find a lawyer in thialand and legally start IT business in Thailand.

2. Marry a Thai woman, at the present time I have no thai woman to marry or real desire to be married. (I have never been married)

3. Not live in thialand, but visit for 6 months (3 month at visit) a year and keep working in America.

My advice is "stay under the radar" for awhile anyways...get a double or triple entry tourist visa...travel around Thailand...you might like other areas as well..Chiang Mai is cooler but no ocean...

You might like Sihanoukville, Cambodia only around $350 a year for working Visa....Laos I think is around $500 if my memory is correct.

Stay a tourist & don't lock yourself in so you can keep your options open & then you can decide if Thailand is right for you.

If you are new to Thailand there are many mistakes you still have to make...you can try avoiding them...but kinda like someone telling you the stove is hot..you'll probably still want to put your hand on the burner to see how hot.

[Soutpeel]

Let's be straight here: at this point, Thai immigration really does not care about this. I have had informal conversations with high ranking Immigration officers about this issue. Of course we don't know if this will change but you might get into a motorbike accident and die tomorrow also.

Most foreigners working online likely bring more funds into the local economy than the dirty old men on retirement visas and cause less trouble too (who I am guessing are spitting all the vitriol about the issue on this forum because they have nothing better to do but be negative casket dodgers). There are thousands of people who have done this for years with no problems whatsoever, and the only people who care are the thaivisa police! (AKA dirty old men on this forum)

Immigration wouldn't care, its a DOL issue, further which immigration office are you on about about ?...as Phuket certainly have a different opinion than your mysterious " high ranking immigration officials" you have had "informal conversations " with

You were almost convincing until your little rant about dirty old men....dear boy

[SDM0712]

Let's be straight here: at this point, Thai immigration really does not care about this. I have had informal conversations with high ranking Immigration officers about this issue.

Of course we don't know if this will change but you might get into a motorbike accident and die tomorrow also.

...................

Immigration wouldn't care, its a DOL issue, further which immigration office are you on about about

I think we should be careful and not assume what one immigration officer tells us applies to the whole country, or indeed anyone else in that immigration office, or indeed even to that immigration officer in the near or long future. How many times have we all been told one set of rules by one official to be told another conflicting rule by another.

The fact is that it is illegal to work without a work permit, whether that is paid work or not whilst you are physically within the boundaries that Thai Law covers if you are not a Thai citizen. There is nothing further to add in that point.

However whether or not the authorities would take action against an offender is another matter and something that an individual must decide themselves based on their attitude to risk. If they accept the risk and are caught the defense that someone mentioned on a website that they had an "informal" conversation with a high ranking immigration official somewhere who said that " Thai immigration really does not care about this" would be laughed out of Court. It's akin to the excuse used by school kids " my friend told me to do it". Also in the most unlikely of events let's say this "high ranking " officer were asked by a Court if he did say this, I think we all know what the answer would be.

Many people do all manner of work without a permit and without being caught, many people break the speed limit without being caught, many people commit all types of crimes without being caught. But the one thing they all have in common is that they are law breakers. Personally I don't have a problem with any of these people if they don't affect me, live and let live. But they should not kid themselves that if they are caught that they will be let off with a slap on the wrist only, they might be, but they might also be fined, be fined and deported, be fined, deported and blacklisted. Although they will get some comfort from the fact that pure immigration offenses do not attract the death penalty, so it's not all bad.

SDM

Edited June 17, 2014 by SDM0712