Israel prepares for ground military operation, 98 dead in Gaza Strip airstrikes

[Morch]

 

This guy keeps talking about deals that are on the table and "all Israel has to do is accept them". There are no such deals. HE is the one "living in fantasy land" and obviously does not know much about the conflict, other than a few Palestinian talking points. No wonder no one is listening to him

 

Every single Arab state at the Arab Peace Summit in 2002 and re-endorsed in 2007 has offered to recognize Israel in return for giving up West Bank and East Jerusalem land illegally occupied in 1967 

 

Permanent peace, permanent secure internationally recognized borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements, tourism ..the works. The offer is still on the table..all Israel has to do is pick it up.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative.

 

At Camp David in 2000 Clinton was just hours away from persuading Ehud Barak and Arafat to accept just 3% more land swaps. They had already agreed on a fudged deal over Jerusalem.

 

What a tragedy.

 

 

The initiative was indeed a missed chance, no question about it. Yes, it was not perfect and there were quite a few details to iron out, but it was as viable as they come. Does serve as a reminder that Israel ought to own up for its fair share of ongoing mess.

 

That said, a couple of things worth mentioning:

 

Hamas denounced the initiative on both occasions (executing a mass terror attack withing a day of the first deceleration). As long as the Palestinians continue to be divided, it might be hard for Israel to sign any meaningful agreement with them.  For those wishing to bring up the recent attempt at Palestinian reconciliation - the Hamas did not agree to recognize Israel, hand over control of its military wing to the PA or outright commit to abandoning the armed struggle in favor of a diplomatic approach.

 

Two of Israel's neighbors are also currently not in a position to sign any meaningful agreements (Lebanon and Syria), while other members (Iraq, for example) face similar difficulties.

 

Saying that the offer is still on the table and Israel just needs to pick it up might not be a true representation of the present situation in the Middle East.

 

As for the other bit: Ehud Barak was not in a position to pass such a deal, having some troubles with coalition government, which indeed did not win the next elections. There just wasn't all that much public support for the proposed agreement. Apart from this, it is also widely acknowledged that Arafat was unable or unwilling to commit to the agreement as well.  This was not a missed chance as such, perhaps, as both parties were not able to market this their respective sides.

[Morch]

 

Hamas can stop with the rockets now. They got their perfect propaganda pictures. Job done. If anyone really thinks it is Israeli policy to deliberately murder young boys at the beach, I've got a bridge to sell you. 

 

Perhaps Israelis shouldn't fire so indiscriminately at a beach where children play. Foreign journalists on the scene in a hotel across the road covering the conflict said there had never been Hamas activity.

 

Gives lie to the Israeli claim that they always fire with pinpoint accuracy to avoid civilian casualties, eh.

 

 

I do not think Israel claims it does not make mistakes.
 

[dexterm]

 

 

Hamas can stop with the rockets now. They got their perfect propaganda pictures. Job done. If anyone really thinks it is Israeli policy to deliberately murder young boys at the beach, I've got a bridge to sell you. 

 

Perhaps Israelis shouldn't fire so indiscriminately at a beach where children play. Foreign journalists on the scene in a hotel across the road covering the conflict said there had never been Hamas activity.

 

Gives lie to the Israeli claim that they always fire with pinpoint accuracy to avoid civilian casualties, eh.

 

 

I do not think Israel claims it does not make mistakes.
 

 

 

..Tell that to the Israeli apologists on this forum.

[Morch]

 

Fire rockets at Israel = get punished.

civilians hanging with combatants - stand the chance of getting harmed. That includes family members hanging with brothers/husbands/sons and also people who roam/play/hang out near places where militants shoot rockets.

In sum, If you hang out with or near Palestinian combatants, you stand a chance of getting harmed.

 

Collective punishment is what you are referring to and its a war crime according to the UN.

 

So you are saying that all residents in Gaza should know what their neighbours are up to? And if they think their neighbour could be affiliated with Hamas, they are supposed to just move away? To where?  

 

Do you have any idea how densely populated Gaza is? Even the WSJ acknowledges they have no where to go

https://twitter.com/WSJThisMorning/status/489716851686260737

 

 

As far as I'm aware, the legality of Israel's air raids is better founded than the Hamas's rocket attacks.

Not that this matters much to civilians, or makes a difference to casualties.

 

A resident of Gaza will know what his neighbor is up to, most times. Members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not

necessarily cover their identity - they are not secret or outlawed organizations as far as the Gazans are concerned.

Someone being a member of a more radical group might be less common knowledge. Not suggesting that each and

every resident of Gaza knows the whereabouts of all Hamas militants and the location of all relevant targets, but it is

a bit hard to ignore a basement full of rockets, a tunnel dug right under one's home etc.  As you correctly pointed out

it is a very densely populated area - not that easy to hide things from locals.

 

Also correct that they have nowhere to go, and that standing up to Hamas can be hazardous to one's health. There

were, over the years, a few instances of public disobedience and displays of discontent, but these had more to do

with the Hamas's failed economics and were rather short lived.

[Morch]

 

To some Israel can never be wrong, even when it slaughters innocent children playing on a beach.

 

From the first day of school to the last, the "defense" mantra is repeated so often that it becomes their whole being. It becomes not just the go-to catch phrase, it becomes a smokescreen for anything Israel does to its neighbors, a blanket term that serves to reduce the complexities of the whole occupation to a simple word that no one can dare question. I can't tell you how many times I heard the exact phrase "What, you don't think Israel should have the right to defend itself?" in debates.

 

Its akin to the US' "fighting terrorism" mantra, in that it gives a free pass to whatever one thinks "defense" should be.

 

Its in the freaking name of their army for crying out loud. 

 

 

Lovely lovely broad brushstrokes.

 

And yet, with 20% Arab Israelis which traditionally do not support the Israeli government's policy in relation to the Palestinians, and a sizable part of the Jewish citizens voting for pro-peace parties, this all encompassing mind-set might not be an entirely accurate picture.

 

It also fails to capture that in some instances Israel does defend itself, and misses out on the fine education afforded to Palestinian youngsters (which includes a healthy dosage of hatred as well).

 

And again, to clear any misguided notions - Israel does wrong, even plenty of it. Just not all it does is wrong, and even the wrongs it does do not always make the other side's wrong right.

[dexterm]

 

 

This guy keeps talking about deals that are on the table and "all Israel has to do is accept them". There are no such deals. HE is the one "living in fantasy land" and obviously does not know much about the conflict, other than a few Palestinian talking points. No wonder no one is listening to him

 

Every single Arab state at the Arab Peace Summit in 2002 and re-endorsed in 2007 has offered to recognize Israel in return for giving up West Bank and East Jerusalem land illegally occupied in 1967 

 

Permanent peace, permanent secure internationally recognized borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements, tourism ..the works. The offer is still on the table..all Israel has to do is pick it up.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative.

 

At Camp David in 2000 Clinton was just hours away from persuading Ehud Barak and Arafat to accept just 3% more land swaps. They had already agreed on a fudged deal over Jerusalem.

 

What a tragedy.

 

 

The initiative was indeed a missed chance, no question about it. Yes, it was not perfect and there were quite a few details to

iron out, but it was as viable as they come. Does serve as a reminder that Israel ought to own up for its fair share of ongoing

mess.

 

That said, a couple of things worth mentioning:

 

Hamas denounced the initiative on both occasions (executing a mass terror attack withing a day of the first deceleration). As

long as the Palestinians continue to be divided, it might be hard for Israel to sign any meaningful agreement with them.

For those wishing to bring up the recent attempt at Palestinian reconciliation - the Hamas did not agree to recognize Israel,

hand over control of its military wing to the PA or outright commit to abandoning the armed struggle in favor of a diplomatic

approach.

 

Two of Israel's neighbors are also currently not in a position to sign any meaningful agreements (Lebanon and Syria), while

other members (Iraq, for example) face similar difficulties.

 

Saying that the offer is still on the table and Israel just needs to pick it up might not be a true representation of the present

situation in the Middle East.

 

As for the other bit: Ehud Barak was not in a position to pass such a deal, having some troubles with coalition government,

which indeed did not win the next elections. There just wasn't all that much public support for the proposed agreement. 

Apart from this, it is also widely acknowledged that Arafat was unable or unwilling to commit to the agreement as well.

This was not a missed chance as such, perhaps, as both parties were not able to market this their respective sides.

 

 

Clinton managed to cajole both a reluctant Arafat and Barak to make concessions. If only he could have got a tentative deal done. They could both have gone back to their peoples and put it to a referendum.

 

Barak lost the next election because the war criminal Ariel Sharon infamously took a provocative stroll on Temple Mount surrounded by a thousand bodyguards ...not that he was expecting any trouble of course, rocks were thrown, the guards fired back, the intifada started, and Sharon won the election on a platform of Israel needs security.

 

It’s a familiar strategy today.. Netanyahu provokes Hamas into retaliation in Gaza.

 

Maybe Hilary will have better luck.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.   I think we can drop the references to apartheid in this thread.   It's inflammatory and off-topic.   That issue is best left for a different discussion.  

[Morch]

 

Bill Clinton warns Israel on 'isolating itself from world opinion' 

 

 New Delhi (AFP) - Former US president Bill Clinton has warned Israel about "isolating itself from world opinion" due to repeated conflicts in Gaza after four children were killed on a beach in the latest violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/bill-clinton-warns-israel-isolating-itself-world-opinion-132921445.html

 

The world has had enough of the murderous Israeli aggression.  It's long past time for Israeli leaders to be brought up on war crimes charges.  If they're innocent, then let them prove it in court.

 

 

Interesting.  Your post have little to do with the actual content of the link, in which Bill Clinton (former US president, not "the world"), gives his take on the situation - out of which you chose but one line.

 

Reading the short piece it is more like Clinton is giving Israel sound practical advice, while placing the most of the moral blame on Hamas. Nothing about war crime charges and courts.

[dexterm]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28392636..makes one wonder just who the terrorists are..

 

At the scene: Yolande Knell in Gaza

Late on Sunday afternoon a thick, black column of smoke was still rising from Shejaiya, north-east of Gaza City. Earlier in the day there was constant, intense Israeli shelling but a shaky, brief, humanitarian ceasefire produced a period of relative quiet.

This enabled ambulances to enter the area. Medics pulled dead and wounded Palestinians from the rubble of their apartment buildings.

Television pictures have been showing horrific, bloody scenes of dead elderly women and children.

At the Shifa hospital, there is a traffic jam of emergency vehicles by the entrance.

"The hospital was totally overloaded. For many of us, these were the worst scenes we've ever had, not only for the density of patients and total overwhelming of our capacity but because of all this pain and agony," says Norwegian doctor, Mads Gilbert, who has been working in the emergency ward since last night and has been in Gaza during previous conflicts.

"There were children in enormous pain. Totally devastated families were bringing their dead children in and lying on the ground screaming."

[Morch]

 

 

 

Hence the reason for ground invasion. All the terror groups including Hamas and Hezbolah use civilians as human shields to paint Israel in a bad light and use the death if civilians for PR propaganda.

They do not even mourn the killed but rather use their death to justify their actions.

Now funny enough for such patriots and marters like Hamas it's always strange that they are hiding behind the civilians and minimal number of Hamas fighters gets killed.

One would think such brave men would be in front line, instead of hiding behind women and kids

 

Here the reason for invasion:

 

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

 

This is a member of the Israeli government !!!

 

 

She is not a member of the Israeli government. She's a parliament member representing a hardliner right wing party.  While her party is a coalition partner and some of the members are ministers, they do criticize Netanyahu (the prime minister) in connection with the fighting in Gaza (mostly pushing for harsher measures). Saying that her Facebook post represents government policy or explains the reason for the invasion is silly at best.

 

The remark received quite a bit of criticism from the opposition and even some of the coalition parties.

 

Press TV is an Iranian mouth piece, may want to take their articles concerning Israel with a sack of salt.

[Morch]

 

 

 

The official excuse to enter Gaza is to find the tunnels and block them. Why don't they look for the tunnels in their own country and block them there?

 

That's easy. Because most of the tunnels don't go into Israel.

Israel wants to stop the rockets and the materials used to build them.

That's linked to the tunnels.

This is on Hamas. They provoked Israel. They knew Israel would react and they knew Israel would dominate militarily.

Interestingly Israel probably doesn't want to TOTALLY break Hamas.

That's because Hamas is the government of Gaza ... and if Israel breaks it, then they probably will have to occupy Gaza ... which Israel needs like a hole in the head. 

 

Next ... 

 

The truth is Israel provoked Hamas with their phony shenanigans after the 3 teenagers were kidnapped.

 

Go for it Israel..occupy Gaza, annex it even if you are truly concerned about security ...make it part of Israel..block these tunnels once and for all. Then the occupied can shame Israel  before the world into how it treats its occupied people as it does in the West Bank already.

 

 

Israel did not have to provoke the Hamas, things were getting heated up before the kidnapping.

There are other reasons for the current conflagration (most importantly, Hamas's financial crisis), which some posters

continually seem to ignore. Not sure what "phony shenanigans" would these be, but then again, with this sort of phrasing

it doesn't really matter much, does it?

 

Israel does not wish to occupy Gaza (which is pretty much what Jingthing post's said), it certainly does not wish to annexe

Gaza (and never did while having the chance, same goes for the West Bank). Find it quite odd someone supporting the

Palestinians and wishing for Israel to occupy Gaza, just so that a point could be made....Doubt that many a Palestinian

share this point of view.

[Morch]

The Prime Minister of Turkey speaks the truth about Israel's murderous actions.
 

 

"Israel is at the moment waging terrorism; Israel at the moment is carrying out genocide," he said.

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/18/turkish-pm-accuses-israel-terrorism-genocide-protesters-pelt-consulate-with/

 

Oh, the prime minister who likes to censor tweeter, YouTube etc when they publish stuff about his corrupt ways?

 

Genocide, no less. And that's from a Turkish Prime Minister, well well... Wonder what the Armenians got to say about

that one.

 

Yes, there are casualties. Yes, too many of the civilians.

Before calling something a genocide, perhaps bear in mind the Gaza Strip is still considered one of the most densely

populated areas on Earth, which sort of undermines the concept of genocide. The same held true on previous occasions

Erdogan brought this up, somehow the population of the Gaza Strip goes up.

 

But sure, do tell how he "speaks the truth".
 

[Morch]

If I were in London, I'd be marching with them too, and I'm not a Muslim. Many Palestinians are Christians.

 

Less than 10% in the West Bank.

Less than 1% in the Gaza Strip.

 

If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide, I'm sure there's a venue near you.

Have fun marching, apply safety precautions when burning flag.

[Morch]

 call it what it is, permanent displacement and systematic genocide of a people, it dosnt matter who it is happening to, Jew, Muslim, Christian or buddhist it is wrong. The fact it its happening and all peoples have a right to exist. Israel should after all thats happened to its people over the millennia understand persecution better than most. What they are doing is little better than has been done to them, it is undeniable and sickening.

 

 

 

The reason in a nutshell  ?

 

Natural gas fields off the coast of Gaza worth billions, Israel wants it and it belongs to the Palestinians 

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680

 

Wow, an article by Michel Chossudovsky, which contains both an Anti-Israel theme and a conspiracy theory!

Err, wait....not so surprising after all:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

Might do well to check on how much gas & oil was actually produced from "fields" pointed on this map,

and why most of the bigger fields aren't even on it (might have something to do with not having much

to do with the current conflict).

[Morch]

USG,

 

>> that want to wipe Israel off the map.

....Israel will wipe itself off the map when it absorbs all the Palestinians it is occupying. 

 

Something which Israel repeatedly said it will not do.

And if someone thinks this is a real possibility, then why bother with an armed struggle?

Better to make love, not war and tilt demographics further...
 

[Morch]

 

 

....Israel will wipe itself off the map when it absorbs all the Palestinians it is occupying.

Sounds an awful lot like wishful thinking. Israel will never "absorb" people that are their sworn enemies. 

 

 

As far as Israel getting out of Gaza "because it was too costly". Wouldn't the conspiracy theory about Israel coveting Gaza's oil deposits more than have covered it? You can't have it both ways.   

 

 

 

Well, what are they going to do with occupied Palestinians then? Israel will never have peace until they make their enemies their friends.

 

The plan is to prevent Gaza from becoming part of a nation, so that Israel can steal all the oil and gas. Gazan fishermen aren’t even allowed to feed their families because of the illegal Israeli blockade with Israeli gunboats killing them.

 

 

You seem to know an awful lot about them Israeli plans.

 

So the Gaza Strip being ran as a separate entity by Hamas is all Israel's doing, and all them pesky disagreements which made the reconciliation agreement not that viable are Israel's doing, and most Arab states (and the PA) stance vs. Hamas is, also, Israel's doing?

 

What oil and gas is Israel stealing? What oil and gas...period?
 

[Morch]

 

Vinnie Kintana does not sound "Israeli" to me. Maybe he is not the one who is "desperate." All those dishonest Hamas talking points are falling flat 

 

Please try reading my post more carefully. Ad hominem attacks are a typical Israeli propaganda technique.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_(Israel)

 

I support the Palestinian cause, but I'm not Palestinian.

. 

 

 

Nothing in the link to support your claim that Ad hominem attacks are typical Israeli propaganda.

 

Most Israelis lament how lame Israeli authorities handle global media.
 

[Morch]

 

<Snipped>

 

But one day I would love to see Jews, Muslims and Christians living together peacefully again.

 

They are geographic neighbors for eternity. These transmigrations tend to happen when a permanent peace comes about one day.

 

Was there a time when they were living in peace?

 

(Serious question, by the way)

 

 

 

Not as such.

 

The Jews who stayed on over them long years when most Jews were spread all over the world were a rather small minority, mostly centered in cities. They were not ruthlessly persecuted on a norm, but there were clashed from time to time.

 

Not exactly at each others throat (well the Jews weren't up for that, anyway) but nothing like an ideal picture some would imagine. Guess it could be compared to other Jewish communities - things were sort of ok, as long as things were sort of ok. Every now and then something came up and served as justification for persecution. After a while things calmed down again and so on.

 

Things started changing for the worse after the Brits took over and with Jewish immigration increasing.

 

One can always find anecdotes about special relationship between individuals, or even between specific communities. But the general sentiments were quickly set to animosity, suspicion, hostility and distrust.

[simple1]

Posted in another topic, a bit of a rehash, but worth reading.

 

What drove Hamas to take on Israel?

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28371966

 

 

[Morch]

 

Hamas also does that for propaganda purposes of course ... to gain sympathy in the larger world. That effort has been effective.

 

 

Yeah sure Hamas has Twitter and has a facebook that is in 90% arabic. Reaaaalllly pushin the propaganda on the West eh... 

 

Israel on the other hand...

 

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/israeli-propaganda-war-hits-social-media-20140717-ztvky.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html

 

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-student-union-sets-war-room-sell-gaza-massacre-facebook

 

 

Two of the links speak about the same thing - Israeli students in one college setting up such a center.  As far as I am aware this is not a government effort, although they did make contact with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in an attempt to coordinate.

 

If anything Israelis mostly think that not enough is being done on this front by the government, and that what they do is useless. 

As for the Hamas having mostly Arabic resources, may I point out that you linked to one of the main Palestinian websites spreading the word - electronicintifada....(there are others, of course).

 

The government project sounds like something that will get blown out of the water when it hits the supreme court, which is most likely to happen. So far its not a reality though, and like many of these initiatives, it probably won't fly that high.

[Morch]

All of this breaks down for me when I make an elementary effort to put the 4 primary criminal elements to the situation. Motive, Means, Opportunity and Cui Bono. Cui Bono is the only one of the 4 elements that will often trump the other 3. Motive is easy, terror or revenge, Means is a bit cloudy based upon a very simple capability, Opportunity doesn't add up to the Palestinians, they are trapped behind a wall with very limited mobility. Cui Bono is where it really breaks down for me. The Palestinians gain no benefit from any of this. I guess you could argue that world opinion is tilting in their direction but that is not really a serious benefit in this particular example. I think the current body count is 340 to 4. Not much benefit there.

 

Such is life when expecting simple clear cut explanations.

 

Break up Palestinians into several distinct groups. Add power plays among and between groups. Enhance distinctions between Leadership interests and general interests. Same as everywhere else.

 

There are no "Palestinians" making decisions. There are leaders of factions making decisions. Their interests do not always coincide. Not all decisions are for the benefit of the people. Not all decisions are rational.

[Morch]

 

 

This is going to end badly for Israel.   Far too many dead, on both sides, far too much destruction - and far too much damage being done to Israel's world standing.  

 

Well that is the strategic plan of Hamas: force Israel to respond militarily and thus sacrifice their own civilians for the lowering of "world standing" aka public opinion.  And it has worked rather well as we see many people crying that Israel should not respond militarily to the Hamas attacks and villifying Israel for responding to attacks upon their population.  We even see one prime example below, as well as many lesser examples, here on ThaiVisa.

 

 

Israeli animals , no concern for civilians. they can be barbaric as they like

 

 

People seem to forget that Israel started this present round of violence.by blaming Hamas for kidnapping 3 Israeli teenagers without a shred of evidence. Turns out that was probably the work of a rogue Hebron clan.

 

This invasion is all an Israeli setup, and Hamas fell into their trap.

 

 

People seem to think that if they will repeat that enough time it will become a fact.

 

The same people seem to ignore that the hostilities started earlier, that both sides were anticipating a clash during the summer, and that Hamas had a few other underlying issues which pushed it into action.

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

Hamas can stop with the rockets now. They got their perfect propaganda pictures. Job done. If anyone really thinks it is Israeli policy to deliberately murder young boys at the beach, I've got a bridge to sell you. 

 

Perhaps Israelis shouldn't fire so indiscriminately at a beach where children play. Foreign journalists on the scene in a hotel across the road covering the conflict said there had never been Hamas activity.

 

Gives lie to the Israeli claim that they always fire with pinpoint accuracy to avoid civilian casualties, eh.

 

 

I do not think Israel claims it does not make mistakes.
 

 

 

..Tell that to the Israeli apologists on this forum.

 

 

I do not think many claim otherwise.

 

Israel says it does what it can to avoid casualties, it does not say there are no mistakes.

Just to make it a trifle clearer - employing unguided weapons on Gaza (sort of like what the Hamas uses vs. Israel)

would result in much higher casualty figures, and more civilians dead. Warfare, especially in urban surroundings, is

not a as clean as the impressions some get while playing their PCs and consoles.

[Morch]

 

 

 

This guy keeps talking about deals that are on the table and "all Israel has to do is accept them". There are no such deals. HE is the one "living in fantasy land" and obviously does not know much about the conflict, other than a few Palestinian talking points. No wonder no one is listening to him

 

Every single Arab state at the Arab Peace Summit in 2002 and re-endorsed in 2007 has offered to recognize Israel in return for giving up West Bank and East Jerusalem land illegally occupied in 1967 

 

Permanent peace, permanent secure internationally recognized borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements, tourism ..the works. The offer is still on the table..all Israel has to do is pick it up.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative.

 

At Camp David in 2000 Clinton was just hours away from persuading Ehud Barak and Arafat to accept just 3% more land swaps. They had already agreed on a fudged deal over Jerusalem.

 

What a tragedy.

 

 

The initiative was indeed a missed chance, no question about it. Yes, it was not perfect and there were quite a few details to

iron out, but it was as viable as they come. Does serve as a reminder that Israel ought to own up for its fair share of ongoing

mess.

 

That said, a couple of things worth mentioning:

 

Hamas denounced the initiative on both occasions (executing a mass terror attack withing a day of the first deceleration). As

long as the Palestinians continue to be divided, it might be hard for Israel to sign any meaningful agreement with them.

For those wishing to bring up the recent attempt at Palestinian reconciliation - the Hamas did not agree to recognize Israel,

hand over control of its military wing to the PA or outright commit to abandoning the armed struggle in favor of a diplomatic

approach.

 

Two of Israel's neighbors are also currently not in a position to sign any meaningful agreements (Lebanon and Syria), while

other members (Iraq, for example) face similar difficulties.

 

Saying that the offer is still on the table and Israel just needs to pick it up might not be a true representation of the present

situation in the Middle East.

 

As for the other bit: Ehud Barak was not in a position to pass such a deal, having some troubles with coalition government,

which indeed did not win the next elections. There just wasn't all that much public support for the proposed agreement. 

Apart from this, it is also widely acknowledged that Arafat was unable or unwilling to commit to the agreement as well.

This was not a missed chance as such, perhaps, as both parties were not able to market this their respective sides.

 

 

Clinton managed to cajole both a reluctant Arafat and Barak to make concessions. If only he could have got a tentative deal done. They could both have gone back to their peoples and put it to a referendum.

 

Barak lost the next election because the war criminal Ariel Sharon infamously took a provocative stroll on Temple Mount surrounded by a thousand bodyguards ...not that he was expecting any trouble of course, rocks were thrown, the guards fired back, the intifada started, and Sharon won the election on a platform of Israel needs security.

 

It’s a familiar strategy today.. Netanyahu provokes Hamas into retaliation in Gaza.

 

Maybe Hilary will have better luck.

 

 

There was not public support for the agreement, on both sides. It was a no sale.

 

Barak's defeat in the elections had a lot to do with the security situation in Israel, but mostly with the Arab Israeli riots, not

the Palestinians. Other issues were relations with Jewish Orthodox parties and being a less than great people's person in

the context of managing his coalition, cabinet and party.

 

Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, provocative as it was - was not the sole reason for the breakout of the Intifada, perhaps

not even the main one. There were more than one Palestinian leader who attested to the Intifada being planned ahead as a

follow up to the failure of the talks.

 

Assuming that an Israeli ground move in Gaza will automatically translate to electoral support for the government is a very

simplistic notion at best. Same goes for the assertion that Netanyahu provoked Hamas into a reaction.

[Morch]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28392636..makes one wonder just who the terrorists are..

 

At the scene: Yolande Knell in Gaza

Late on Sunday afternoon a thick, black column of smoke was still rising from Shejaiya, north-east of Gaza City. Earlier in the day there was constant, intense Israeli shelling but a shaky, brief, humanitarian ceasefire produced a period of relative quiet.

This enabled ambulances to enter the area. Medics pulled dead and wounded Palestinians from the rubble of their apartment buildings.

Television pictures have been showing horrific, bloody scenes of dead elderly women and children.

At the Shifa hospital, there is a traffic jam of emergency vehicles by the entrance.

"The hospital was totally overloaded. For many of us, these were the worst scenes we've ever had, not only for the density of patients and total overwhelming of our capacity but because of all this pain and agony," says Norwegian doctor, Mads Gilbert, who has been working in the emergency ward since last night and has been in Gaza during previous conflicts.

"There were children in enormous pain. Totally devastated families were bringing their dead children in and lying on the ground screaming."

 

Might put some BBC reporting in perspective - http://bbcwatch.org/tag/yolande-knell/

It's kinda tiresome reading with this insistence on facts and balanced presentation, sorry about that.
 

[Ulysses G.]

Just as I supected. Thanks for an illuminating article on how the media are spinning this conflict. 

 

The reporting which has appeared on the BBC News website so far includes an evolving article now titled “Gaza shelling by Israel ‘most intense’, dozens reported killed“. That report once again repeatedly cites casualty figures for which there is no evidence to suggest the BBC has independent verification and – as has been the case in all the BBC’s reporting so far – no effort is made to inform audiences of the sources of those figures and their questionable reliability.

http://bbcwatch.org/tag/yolande-knell/

[kblaze]

 

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. 

 

 According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie? 

 

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is: 

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

 

 

UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

 

But then you post a link by Elliott Abrams. Who is Elliot Abrams?

 

I started to read his Wikipedia page..

"Abrams was born into a Jewish family in New York in 1948...."

 

"During this time, Abrams clashed regularly with church groups and human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch.^[15][16] and Amnesty International, over the Reagan administration's foreign policies. They accused him of covering up atrocities committed by the military forces of US-backed governments, such as those in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, and the rebel Contras in Nicaragua."

 

Yeah he's much more credible.

Edited July 21, 2014 by kblaze

[Pakboong]

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

From the story, these guys are well within rocket range of Gaza. They do not seem to need shelter from the rain of rockets that are fired each day.

[kblaze]

 

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

From the story, these guys are well within rocket range of Gaza. They do not seem to need shelter from the rain of rockets that are fired each day.

 

 

Did you hear what happened to CNN reporter who tweeted about these Israelis threatening to destroy her car if she says a word wrong? 

She called them scum and was subsequently removed...

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/cnn-diana-magnay-israel-gaza_n_5598866.html

[Morch]

 

 

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

From the story, these guys are well within rocket range of Gaza. They do not seem to need shelter from the rain of rockets that are fired each day.

 

 

Did you hear what happened to CNN reporter who tweeted about these Israelis threatening to destroy her car if she says a word wrong? 

She called them scum and was subsequently removed...

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/cnn-diana-magnay-israel-gaza_n_5598866.html

 

 

Wonder if reporters often use this language on their tweets when covering the all too familiar displays of happiness when the Hamas scores points. Could be, just can't recall anything of the sort.

 

As for the article itself, the original piece popped up about a week ago (perhaps a bit more). Would be quite fitting if a rocket falls in the vicinity. They don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed.