Israel prepares for ground military operation, 98 dead in Gaza Strip airstrikes

[ggold]

 

Some of you have a hard time dealing with reality, trying to claim that Israel fired the first shot or that this has to do with the killing of the 3 Israeli teenagers. It may have been the culmination that started the latest conflict but Hamas have been firing rockets into Israel continuously.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

 

January 13

Two rockets were launched to the Northern Negev desert, near Sderot. There were no injuries or damage reported.^[8]

 

 

Just because most of the rockets get intercepted of land in empty spaces doesn't mean Israel doesn't have a right to respond.

 

http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/gaza-suffers-as-hamas-fights-for-survival-on-several-fronts

 

Hamas has become increasingly isolated, politically and geographically, since the Egyptian army helped oust the Muslim Brotherhood government in early July.

 

 

http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/arab-world-holds-hamas-responsible-latest-conflict

 

The latest round of fighting is remarkable in what did not happen. There weren’t automatic mass demonstrations against Israel and the West. No major riots or countless photographs of Israeli and American flags on fire across the region. No violence against diplomatic facilities. Even though Fatah fired missiles, there was no large-scale uprising in the West Bank.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So we are agreed then that only 2 rockets (June 1 and 11) were fired in the first 2 weeks of June prior to the escalation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

 

While in that same 2 weeks Israel had assassinated a Palestinian wounding 3 civilians including a child (11 June)

 

A 51 year old fisherman died of wounds inflicted by IDF on 25 May.

 

Operation Brothers Keeper began on 13 June, a day after the kidnapping. Over the next 11 days Israel arrested over 350 Palestinians, many still in jail without charge, and killed 5 Palestinians

Plus numerous other violations

 

http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/weekly-report-israeli-human-rights-violations-occupied-448

 

Perhaps if Israel didn’t fire first, Hamas wouldn’t retaliate.

 

On 15 June, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that the teens had been kidnapped by Hamas,^[2][14] which Hamas denied.^[2] Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas maintained that as of 22 June there was no evidence that Hamas was behind the kidnapping.^[15] Hamas denied any involvement in the kidnapping.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

 

15 June Netanyahu made his “Hamas is responsible. Hamas must pay” speech.

 

Everyone conveniently seems to forget what caused the present invasion.

 

btw, You people = Israeli apologists. You will never find an ounce of racism/religionism in me...there's nothing I hate more.

 

Gotta fly...literally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not agree with you one bit. There were rockets fired at Israel before then as well.
 

[Jingthing]

 

 

I have little doubt that Hamas did order it, but I could care less, if it is proven further. The circumstantial evidence in overwhelming.

 
It's a terrible thing to go to war causing hundreds of casualties based merely on a hypothetical.

 

Those rockets being fired at civilians every day are not in any way "hypothetical".

 

Indeed:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFGKhKYQNdE

[up-country_sinclair]

 

Israeli action in Gaza could be war crimes: UN rights chief

LONDON (MarketWatch) -- The UN's high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, said Wednesday that Israel's military operations in Gaza may amount to war crimes, according to media reports. Speaking at an emergency debate at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, Pillay said the killing of Palestinians, in particular children, and house demolitions by Israeli forces raise the "strong possibility" Israel is breaking international law. Human rights law bans the targeting of civilians.

 

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/israeli-action-in-gaza-could-be-war-crimes-un-rights-chief-2014-07-23?dist=beforebell

 

 

Netanyahu should be brought before the ICC in chains.

[Exsexyman]

 

 

[
Hamas affiliates but no direct orders from Hamas leadership.

How do YOU know, where their orders came from? You don't.

 

 

Neither does the Israeli government or Shin Bet apparently, because no evidence has been produced so far. It would be absolute gold to Netanyahu if he could prove direct orders.

 

 

 

There clearly is no evidence that Hamas were responsible for the kidnappings, if there was then Netanyahu would surely have produced it. Perhaps he should ask the leader of Mossad, Tamir Pardo. After all, he is clearly gifted with psychic abilities!

 

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598751?v=9E19E997AD217B5941AFCD9189E2CE76

 

[Jingthing]

I am my own person with my own opinions. I read a range of Israeli opinion, from left to right. Have been reading Haaretz for years. I have been saying Palestinian people have legit grievances for years as well. But sorry there is a good reason more right wing candidates win in Israel. It's unfair to judge them by liberal western standards given their situation.  Look what they're dealing with. Terrorists intent to destroy their country. Peace is very unlikely anytime soon, but it is a two way street and the orgy of rockets wasn't much of a gesture. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

There clearly is no evidence that Hamas were responsible for the kidnappings

Only that the suspects were members of Hamas that had been arrested and served time for terrorism before and were missing since the night of the kidnapping. Even a senior Palestinian intelligence official said that their disappearance constituted clear evidence the two suspects have links with the abduction and Hamas congratulated them publicly for murdering the teens, but what does any of that matter? Edited July 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

A post which  violates Fair Use Policy has been removed.   Please only quote the first 3 sentences and then a link to the remainder of the article.  

[up-country_sinclair]

Israel shoots into Al Jazeera offices in Gaza 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG9sbQ2QfVI

Edited July 23, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Ulysses G.]

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

[Asiantravel]

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 

" who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas "

 

sounds like no more than a conspiracy theory

[Morch]

 

 

 

No. Purposely. More like this:

 

 

 

The hateful crime that sparked the current conflict. 

 

"This evening, we found three bodies and all the signs indicate that they are the bodies of our three kidnapped youngsters," Netanyahu told ministers at the start of an emergency session of his security cabinet. "They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by human animals,"

 

 

 

I have previously condemned the killers of these 3 Israeli teenagers as psychopathic murderers. It’s a pity you cant admit the same, that people like this lurk in the ranks of the IDF too.

 

Netanyahu was informed within the first few hours that they were probably dead and the names of the 2 killers also, rogue elements of a Hebron clan, were known to police very quickly too...they demolished their parents’ houses. But he ordered a media blackout and launched Operation Brothers Keeper smashing up Palestinian homes and arresting 500 Hamas affiliates without a shred of evidence so that ostensibly he could try to find them, thus tormenting the boys’ poor parents

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Protective_Edge

 

He chose to make this incident his pretext for the present invasion of Gaza, in order to break up the unity government of Hamas and PA. Unfortunately his reckless actions have caused the deaths of 27 more Israelis too.

 

 

Rinse, repeat.

 

Seems like some posters keep having trouble accepting that complex situations are very rarely born out of single incidents,

or that single incidents are very rarely the the sole cause that set events in motion.

 

The fact that the kidnapped were most likely dead was known pretty early and not released to the general public. This may

be interpreted in more than one way - for example, in order to avoid (or minimize) the backlash from the Jewish public, as

seen right after the announcement. Probably not a great idea to have that going on while searching for the bodies and the

killers. There could have been other considerations pertaining to the investigation - but no need to let that stand in the way

of a good chance to conjure up a cunning plan by Israel.

 

The identity of the killers was known quickly too, right. The rogue elements of a Hebron clan bit is a nice deflection - the

Hamas connections were known as well. There was more than this one liner regarding the killers background on local media,

which as far as I understand, makes the rogue thing more like mixing criminal and political - not that uncommon with some

groups. Could have missed something, but last I read - only one part of a house (where one of the killers resided) was

demolished (and as a side note - demolishing houses is both wrong and useless). The Hamas "affiliates" were arrested

partly as a means to get closer to the killers, and partly in order to break down Hamas resurgence as a terrorist threat on

the West Bank. Note that Abbas took his time whining about this and that the PA's security forces were aiding the effort (to

a degree). If the "shred of evidence" is about involvement in the kidnapping, I would say that is probably right - more like

mass rounding up of usual suspects. There was enough too throw some of them back in jail over other offenses, though,

and of course, with the West Bank being under either PA rule or IDF military rule - authorities have quite a leeway for such

actions (again, this is not a good thing, just stating a fact).

 

Pinning the current round of hostilities with Hamas on this, as an Israeli plan - might cover some of it at best. It is, however,

a very partial view of forces, factors, causes and events effecting the situation and its dynamics. Repeatedly ignoring Hamas

economic troubles and their implications on its hold on the Gaza Strip, painting a false image of the Palestinian reconciliation

effort as being anywhere near being a done deal, not addressing the internal power plays and domestic politics plaguing the

Palestinians - all hint at either a concentrated effort to present a biased point of view as "true" reality, or a serious lack of

knowledge as to details relating to these issues.

 

 

 

Saying that the killers are "psychopathic" (I wouldn't know if they are) murderers does not mean that every attack by the IDF

ought to be tagged in same way. Sure, there are nutcases in the IDF, same as every army. By and large, the IDF is not really

that bad as much as it is under constant media coverage while carrying out operations to do with civilians.

 

I do not think that the IDF specifically, intentionally, deliberately (or whatever fits) targets civilians as a policy. That is not to say

civilians do not get killed - mistakes do happen, operations do take place in places where civilians reside, and as with almost 

any army there are isolated instances where soldiers do things they are not supposed to. But as a policy - doubt it.

 

 

Yes, I have to put it on rinse because pro Israeli posters keep muddying the waters chanting the mantra, Stop the rockets.

 

Clearly, it when this present escalation (now mayhem  >600 Pals, and 30 Israelis dead) started June 13, it was nothing to do with rockets. Only 2 in 2 weeks had fallen harmlessly.

 

Yes of course there are complex reasons to a conflict, but someone has to light the firework. Netanyahu did so on 13 June.

 

Hamas affiliates but no direct orders from Hamas leadership. If the thugs who burnt alive the Palestinian boy in Jerusalem had voted Likud, would that make Netanyahu responsible for  his murder?

 

Yes every army has its psychopaths, but as a general policy to use heavy weaponry in a built up area like Gaza is counterproductive for Israel. As today’s Independent newspaper reports “the whole of Gaza is a frontline”.. civilians have nowhere to hide in safety

.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-families-search-for-a-place-of-safety-from-the-violence-but-the-frontline-is-everywhere-in-gaza-9621948.html

 

Israel must know this will result in very high innocent civilian casualties..which at best is not good publicity for Israel’s cause, and at worst has already had calls from Israeli civil rights groups for war crimes indictments.

 

 

If you feel that you have to repeat yourself, you might at least keep it real.

 

Choosing arbitrary dates as starting points for the conflict, or even this round of hostilities.  Making the kidnapping the main issue rather than acknowledging more important factors. Making false moral comparisons.  Implying that fighting in urban zones is solely Israel's doing and responsibility.  Going on about the nowhere to go.

 

So basically, nothing addressed as such, just a collection of one liners.
 

[up-country_sinclair]

sounds like no more than a conspiracy theory

 

 

His post also violates Thaivisas's fair use policy.

Edited July 23, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Ulysses G.]

Choosing arbitrary dates as starting points for the conflict, or even this round of hostilities.

Before he claimed that it was June 28, but after I listed all the rockets attacks before that, he changed the "starting" date by two weeks and, of course, conveniently ignores all the rockets in the months before June. Very typical of this poster.

[CBR250]

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 

Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source. Anyone can say anything about anyone. It doesn't make it factual.

Your reference to the journalists from Al Jazeera who are jailed in Egypt makes no sense either in the context of this discussion. Spreading "false news"? Is the accusation accurate? Who says? What evidence is there that news they were reporting was "false"? How does this have any relevance to reports on Gaza?

At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF. Not the most impartial source, even you must agree.

But if you feel that Al Jazeera is biased, and we know that the Israeli mainstream media are no more than lackeys of the government, then you maybe you will trust Israeli / Jewish sources offering factual information about the horrors being perpetrated in Gaza by the IDF. Try googling any of the following for some useful information:

* Gisha Legal Centre For Freedom of Movement.

* B'tselem.

* Gush Shalom

* Rabbis for Human Rights.

 

The other advantage of using these sights for information about Gaza is that they also highlight that there are Jewish people in Israel with strong sense of justice - and who reject the warmongering so popular amongst many Israelis.
 

[kingalfred]

So we are agreed then that only 2 rockets (June 1 and 11) were fired in the first 2 weeks of June prior to the escalation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

Last time you claimed that the escalation was June 28 and I pointed out that there were many rockets before then. Now you move the date back two weeks and claim the same thing. You are changing the goal posts to fit your own narrative.

you are the master of fiction to create your "narrative".....back to your IDF and Tel Aviv blogs.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Ulysses G.]

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 
Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source.

The ignoring problem seems to be yours. The source has already been attributed. Are you colorblind by any chance? Edited July 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[kingalfred]

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 
Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source. Anyone can say anything about anyone. It doesn't make it factual.
Your reference to the journalists from Al Jazeera who are jailed in Egypt makes no sense either in the context of this discussion. Spreading "false news"? Is the accusation accurate? Who says? What evidence is there that news they were reporting was "false"? How does this have any relevance to reports on Gaza?
At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF. Not the most impartial source, even you must agree.
But if you feel that Al Jazeera is biased, and we know that the Israeli mainstream media are no more than lackeys of the government, then you maybe you will trust Israeli / Jewish sources offering factual information about the horrors being perpetrated in Gaza by the IDF. Try googling any of the following for some useful information:
* Gisha Legal Centre For Freedom of Movement.
* B'tselem.
* Gush Shalom
* Rabbis for Human Rights.
 
The other advantage of using these sights for information about Gaza is that they also highlight that there are Jewish people in Israel with strong sense of justice - and who reject the warmongering so popular amongst many Israelis.
 

Dont try to Fathom the would be american civil war general.He has a warped view of this conflict. A mouthpiece Netanhanyu would honor.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited July 23, 2014 by kingalfred

[Morch]

 

 

 

The IDF certainly said, on record, that hospitals were used as launching areas for rockets. There were even aerial

photos released. But if I'm getting the gist of your argument with UG, then you'd just wave it off as unreliable, seeing

as it came from an official Israeli source.

 

I can understand that point of view, just not quite sure which sources would be deemed satisfactory. Not like journalists

are up in the air over Gaza and can supply the same, not sure how many of them are really on site when things go down

(as opposed to being in Gaza - remembering some of the BBC and CNN coverage in Bangkok 2010...). I think that the

rockets found with the UN (a story which was not denied, and widely covered) would be a good enough example, though.

 

 

If its from the IDF then yes it should be treated with suspicion as they are one side of the conflict. 

 

Do I throw it away? No, I treat it with suspicion. Just as there is some truth in some of what is being reported by Hamas, there will be some truth in some of what is reported by the IDF.

 

Now, since IDF certainly said it, can you provide a link of some kind so I can educate myself? I'm suspicious because the only report I read quoted an IDF spokesman saying they believed they saw a military target 100 meters from el-Wafa hospital (and thus bombed the hospital - gotta love the pinpoint IDF missiles).   

 

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4547577,00.html

 

And earlier today - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548763,00.html
 

Same reports with some variations appear on other media sources. This is just the latest couple of instances,

though - there were similar reports (some with pics and clips) earlier, and of course, on previous confrontations.

 

No problem with people treating sources with suspicion, just doubt that there are many sources which could be termed

as objective, having access to original information or not having some compromising affiliation, to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Its a war zone, and both sides use media as a tool too some extent, reporters on site cannot have clear picture of events

from all perspectives and all locations, local media outlets can be seen as biased etc. etc.

 

Comes down to what sources people trust, or which sources they prefer.

 

 

Not sure which specific attack or report you refer to - but don't think that the IDF ever claimed to hit each and every target

without fail.

[kingalfred]

Israeli war crimes says UN. Is the link genuine for the Terrorist states supporters ? http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Ulysses G.]

At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF.

Can you provide some evidence of this? I am quickly coming to believe that your posts are just as dishonest as a few others of your ilk that keep getting caught making false statements. Edited July 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

 

Israeli action in Gaza could be war crimes: UN rights chief

LONDON (MarketWatch) -- The UN's high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, said Wednesday that Israel's military operations in Gaza may amount to war crimes, according to media reports. Speaking at an emergency debate at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, Pillay said the killing of Palestinians, in particular children, and house demolitions by Israeli forces raise the "strong possibility" Israel is breaking international law. Human rights law bans the targeting of civilians.

 

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/israeli-action-in-gaza-could-be-war-crimes-un-rights-chief-2014-07-23?dist=beforebell

 

 

Netanyahu should be brought before the ICC in chains.

 

 

Seems like you missed the last line of the same report - "At the same time, she condemned the firing of rockets and mortars by Hamas into Israel."

 

Not a word about Hamas staging operations from urban residential areas though, guess that's alright. Still, a bit more balanced if one considers the body she heads dedicated almost half of its country specific resolutions to Israel. Like there are no worse regimes and evils out there.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

[
Hamas affiliates but no direct orders from Hamas leadership.

How do YOU know, where their orders came from? You don't.

 

 

Neither does the Israeli government or Shin Bet apparently, because no evidence has been produced so far. It would be absolute gold to Netanyahu if he could prove direct orders.

 

 

 

There clearly is no evidence that Hamas were responsible for the kidnappings, if there was then Netanyahu would surely have produced it. Perhaps he should ask the leader of Mossad, Tamir Pardo. After all, he is clearly gifted with psychic abilities!

 

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598751?v=9E19E997AD217B5941AFCD9189E2CE76

 

 

 

There is no evidence that Hamas leadership directly ordered the kidnapping.  There is evidence that the kidnapping was carried out by Hamas affiliated men. There is evidence that Hamas leadership called for more kidnappings to be carried out, in the wake of the last exchange.

 

I do not think Netanyahu or anyone else that matters claimed otherwise.
 

[Morch]

 

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 

" who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas "

 

sounds like no more than a conspiracy theory

 

 

Eh?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/23/palestinians-gaza-qatar-idUSL5E8LN5NX20121023
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/congress-qatar-stop-funding-hamas-93965.html

 

Plenty more, from many a media source. For more fun stories, you may want to look into Khaled Mashal's business interests in Qatar.

[Ulysses G.]

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 
" who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas "
 
sounds like no more than a conspiracy theory

 
Eh?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/23/palestinians-gaza-qatar-idUSL5E8LN5NX20121023
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/congress-qatar-stop-funding-hamas-93965.html

More like a conspiracy PLOT.

However, it continues, we believe that Qatars relationship with Hamas empowers, legitimizes, and bolsters an organization committed to violence and hatred.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/congress-qatar-stop-funding-hamas-93965.html#ixzz38JIjdwEa

[CBR250]

 

 

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 
Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source.

 

The ignoring problem seems to be yours. The source has already been attributed. Are you colorblind?

 

 

Well, yes, as a matter of fact I am colour blind. Does that please you? But more to the point, how is relevant? I assume that you believe the blue link at the bottom of the post is somehow a sufficient attribution for a statement made in an earlier paragraph. As the link follows a further paragraph that refers to the jailed journalists in Egypt, is it not natural to assume it is linked to that tangent? I would suggest that the anonymous "he" whom you quoted is not sufficiently accounted for by a link at the bottom of the page - following even further paragraphs on a tangentially related topic.

So further to the (inexpertly attributed) point you were attempting to make, you are proposing that we should accept an opinion as a fact simply because a journalist wrote it down?

 

More importantly, your response reinforces my observation that you are not engaging in any form of rationale debate. You rely almost exclusively on selective (in)attention and invective. That really will not help win people over to seeing your side of a debate, you know.

[Morch]

 

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 

Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source. Anyone can say anything about anyone. It doesn't make it factual.

Your reference to the journalists from Al Jazeera who are jailed in Egypt makes no sense either in the context of this discussion. Spreading "false news"? Is the accusation accurate? Who says? What evidence is there that news they were reporting was "false"? How does this have any relevance to reports on Gaza?

At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF. Not the most impartial source, even you must agree.

But if you feel that Al Jazeera is biased, and we know that the Israeli mainstream media are no more than lackeys of the government, then you maybe you will trust Israeli / Jewish sources offering factual information about the horrors being perpetrated in Gaza by the IDF. Try googling any of the following for some useful information:

* Gisha Legal Centre For Freedom of Movement.

* B'tselem.

* Gush Shalom

* Rabbis for Human Rights.

 

The other advantage of using these sights for information about Gaza is that they also highlight that there are Jewish people in Israel with strong sense of justice - and who reject the warmongering so popular amongst many Israelis.
 

 

 

The relevance of the Al-Jazeera case in Egypt is that the media outlet was supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood to a degree the army authorities (and secular parties) deemed overboard. Whether one agrees with their journalists being treated as they were is one thing, their coverage on Egypt cannot be said to have been very objective, though.

 

The same when it comes to the Hamas. By the way, those following Al-Jazeera may note that their coverage of events in Syria and Iraq carries the same bias.

 

Israeli government does not allow their own media to comment? Are you for real? There's a barrage of news from local media, and many quotes citing Israeli media sources on these topics. The claim about being allowed to use only IDF provided information is simply untrue.

 

The organizations you mentioned cannot be said to be very impartial as well....not sure what you were getting at.
 

[CBR250]

 

 

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 

Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source. Anyone can say anything about anyone. It doesn't make it factual.

Your reference to the journalists from Al Jazeera who are jailed in Egypt makes no sense either in the context of this discussion. Spreading "false news"? Is the accusation accurate? Who says? What evidence is there that news they were reporting was "false"? How does this have any relevance to reports on Gaza?

At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF. Not the most impartial source, even you must agree.

But if you feel that Al Jazeera is biased, and we know that the Israeli mainstream media are no more than lackeys of the government, then you maybe you will trust Israeli / Jewish sources offering factual information about the horrors being perpetrated in Gaza by the IDF. Try googling any of the following for some useful information:

* Gisha Legal Centre For Freedom of Movement.

* B'tselem.

* Gush Shalom

* Rabbis for Human Rights.

 

The other advantage of using these sights for information about Gaza is that they also highlight that there are Jewish people in Israel with strong sense of justice - and who reject the warmongering so popular amongst many Israelis.
 

 

 

The relevance of the Al-Jazeera case in Egypt is that the media outlet was supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood to a

degree the army authorities (and secular parties) deemed overboard. Whether one agrees with their journalists being

treated as they were is one thing, their coverage on Egypt cannot be said to have been very objective, though.

 

The same when it comes to the Hamas. By the way, those following Al-Jazeera may note that their coverage of events

in Syria and Iraq carries the same bias.

 

Israeli government does not allow their own media to comment? Are you for real? There's a barrage of news from local

media, and many quotes citing Israeli media sources on these topics. The claim about being allowed to use only IDF

provided information is simply untrue.

 

The organizations you mentioned cannot be said to be very impartial as well....not sure what you were getting at.
 

 

 

Well, I have read too many papers in the past few days to readily track down the source that noted Israeli journalists are not allowed into Gaza, and that their reports are based on information provided by the IDF. But trust me, this was reported in a credible publication. I have no interest in deceit. Disagreement yes, deceit no. If you know of Israeli journalists who are inside Gaza and writing about it, please refer me to them.

 

And at the end of the day no-one is impartial. But the organisations I proposed as sources are at least not mouthpieces for the Israeli government. Their vested interests are to ideals, not political deals or hidden agendas. As such, they are much better sources of balanced information than the inherently biased mainstream western and Israeli media. These organisations may be sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, but as Jews and Israelis they cannot be accused of not caring for Israel, or of supporting any form of terrorism. As such, their information is far more credibile than most mainstream media outlets. In a nutshell, that is what I was getting at!

 

Perhaps more importantly for the future of international relations, the short list of organisations I provided are examples of Jewish and Israeli organisations that do not support the current brutal policies of the Israeli government. They are obviously in the minority in Israel, but they are a legitimate voice, and they are the only ones who give hope for a peaceful future for Israelis (and Palestinians). Peace will not come with stolen land and engendering more and more memories of loved ones killed. These organisations work from that reality, and prioritise peace, not revenge. While anger towards Hamas is understandable, any empathic person must acknowledge that there is fault on both sides of this conflict. Attributing blame and engendering hatred towards either side will maintain this current conflict into the lives of our grandchildren. And their grandchildren. Those of us who don't want that want more intelligent policies than blockades, warfare and propaganda that maintains anger, fear and suspicion. As Israel is the big kid on the block - militarily speaking - it is incumbent on them to make the first meaningful moves. Using the "peace process" as a smokescreen for a continuing land grab is particularly unhelpful, and is causing erosion of international support for Israel. They must sincerely attempt to get somewhere. Sadly, I suspect this will not begin with the current government. We can see this in the games played around the recent "ceasefire" proposed by Egypt, which was obviously never going to work, as it offered nothing to the beleagured Gazans. To blame Hamas for rejecting it is disingenuous. If positions were reversed, Israel would never have accepted it either.

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

 

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 
Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source.

 

The ignoring problem seems to be yours. The source has already been attributed. Are you colorblind?

 

 
Well, yes, as a matter of fact I am colour blind. Does that please you? But more to the point, how is relevant?

 

It is relevant, because you accused me of not attributing the source of my quote and I clearly did. Rather than posting a bunch more spin, how about a sincere apology? 

[Ulysses G.]

Well, I have read too many papers in the past few days to readily track down the source that noted Israeli journalists are not allowed into Gaza, and that their reports are based on information provided by the IDF. But trust me, this was reported in a credible publication. I have no interest in deceit.

Balderdash. You are being disingenuous once again and trying to alter your story. Yesterday, you insisted that, "The Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF." Both of these things are complete and utter nonsense and, of course, you ignored my request for evidence.
 

Can you provide some evidence of this? I am quickly coming to believe that your posts are just as dishonest as a few others of your ilk that keep getting caught making false statements.

Israeli journalists are not allowed into Gaza, because, obviously, Hamas will try to kidnap them and use them as hostages, but Israeli journalists are allowed to use any sources they want and report anything they want, other than military secrets, such as troop movements and such. Those are the FACTS.

 

At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[boomerangutang]

The point is that anyone could be a terrorist. Weren't you the one who was claiming that they all had to me men of military age?

No, that wasn't me. I know nothing of Hamas' military training ages (you got that NSA?)
Anyways...I'm just frustrated. I guess I'm just resigned to the fact that there is nothing I can do to make you change your mind that not all Palestinians in the Gaza strip are terrorists or would ever choose to be such. I truly wish you could sit and eat with a Gazan family who doesn't support Hamas (despite what you think, there are many)...I think you...and they..would be enlightened.

I'm frustrated also. I know that not all Palestinians are terrorists. I did a music show once with several Palestinian teens, the eldest spoke up and said she wanted to become an attorney, another wanted to bake bread for a living - and so on.

Palestinians are caught in a no-way-out scenario which is common throughout the Middle East. They are required to back what the most radical men dictate. They don't have to carry guns or strap on bomb belts, but they have to either get behind the hot-heads, or keep their mouths shut and not get in the way. ...under force of threatened harm - physical and mental.

In a larger perspective, that's what's slowly going on in Europe. Native Europeans' political power is slowly eroding in favor of radical Islamists. You don't need a majority or 'power of reason' to take over a country. You instead need some very determined hot-heads - who will stop at nothing to enforce their will. In this case, they'll say 'It is the will of Allah!' Edited July 24, 2014 by boomerangutang