Tourist visa holders denied entry to Thailand and left stranded in Malaysia

[brewsterbudgen]

It appears abundantly transparent that this is just the beginning of cleansing Thailand of undesirable foreigners.

• Next will be land bought with a shell company.
• WP holders that are not actually working.
• B Visa holders that have absolutely no business here in Thailand whatsoever.
• Retirement Visa's and those that never really had the money in the bank to qualify but paid under the table.
• Marriage visa holders that do not live with the wife anymore.

The list goes on and on.

There is a mass cleansing approaching this will effect not only the tourist visa runners but almost everyone regardless of what you read here not everyone is a squeaky clean as they make out....watch your back, your turn is coming.

What a load of unsubstantiated nonsense!

[ukrules]

RE the Elite card. Wasn't that dropped after the last coup? How many got burned then? Seems a lot of money to risk when the stability of the immigration system, rules enforced, changed, not enforced, sometimes enforced... turn up side down, shaken, stirred... etc etc is as reliable as a cloud atlas.

Nobody got burned and they're still all valid.

[enuff said]

.

Maybe they sent them to Bkk where they have facilities to incarcerate them pending further investigation?

~

[jspill]

I'm taking no particular joy from this clampdown, but can it just be said one more time (I'm assuming it has been stated somewhere in this thread already)...

Whether one is under 50 or over 50, rich or poor, law-abiding or corrupt, speak Thai or don't, eat in local establishments or only eat American fastfood: one just can't live wherever they want according to their idea of fairness. Even if it's true that they're just an independently-wealthy, fun-loving tourist.

Period, end of story.

'cept for Thailand, prior to this clampdown, and Thailand in a few months when it blows over.

[firestar]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I don't understand the shadenfreud either, but you may want to rethink your second point. Aside from it being factually flawed, if one has obtained a non-O multiple-entry visa due to marriage/family, they are in no way "abusing" anything by leaving and re-entering the country multiple times.

They are following the rules in order to be able to stay with loved ones.

You're whining.

Today's rules. If tomorrow the authorities decide you need 5 million in the bank I don't want to see you post here with your idea of fairness, right?

[p_brownstone]

Lets face it, 60 days is more than adequate time for people to take holidays in any particular country and who knows how long these people have been hanging out in Thailand using the back door methods. The Thai authorities have been more than generous in the past and the times for turning a blind eye has to now cease and desist.

If these people are unable to meet the requirements as imposed by the Immigration Departments then they have no entitlements to be here. Either obtain the appropriate visas, go elsewhere or go home, these are the only options available to them as by law always has been and always will, only now the laws are being enforced, so it beats me how these can feel shocked or feel that are are receiving a mis-justice?

Westerners of little wealth, the illegal business owners, illegal workers, possibly those of the criminal elements and hasslers are not wanted in Thailand for the long term, otherwise the Thais would not have created these laws and now that these laws are at last being actively enforced we can expect to see a lot less undesirable foreigners in Thailand for the future, that in my opinion cannot be a bad thing.

Please list some of the laws these guys were breaking.

It can;t come to your mind that some people want to spend few months away from the harsh winter of Europe,Russia or Corea ?

Is too difficult to understand there are many wealthy people under 50 or many people who works only in summer months and than they like to stay in the tropics for the winter months ?

There are MILLIONS of people in this situation, including myself. I have never worked in Thailand, I don't need to work, fortunately I am AGES under 50, I have never broken any law in Thailand or anywhere else.

There are others who surely work on tourist visas, but not all of them.

It's WAY possible to spend several months a year on holidays.

"Millions" is obviously quite ridiculous hyperbole (and frankly casts doubt on your personal claims to wealth which - usually - derives from education).

That said anyone with any sense must surely understand that any Immigration Policy - regardless of the Country - can only be a "broad brush" approach. There will always be a few individuals whose personal circumstances do not qualify them for a Visa; however as already mentioned several times on this Thread there is the option of the Thai Elite Card and the associated Visa if you are really so wealthy .

Patrick

[ukrules]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I suspect many chickens will come home to roost on the subject of NON-O visas in the coming months.

[F K Thornbury]

I'm taking no particular joy from this clampdown, but can it just be said one more time (I'm assuming it has been stated somewhere in this thread already)...

Whether one is under 50 or over 50, rich or poor, law-abiding or corrupt, speak Thai or don't, eat in local establishments or only eat American fastfood: one just can't live wherever they want according to their idea of fairness. Even if it's true that they're just an independently-wealthy, fun-loving tourist.

Period, end of story.

'cept for Thailand, prior to this clampdown, and Thailand in a few months when it blows over.

Yes, you're right on the first point and possibly on the second. I'm talking about in theory, which is why when things revert to the norm and people are caught with their pants down their incredulity is laughable.

And, if you are indeed right on the second point, some people seem to be wasting a lot of energy uneccesarily bashing Thailand in this thread. Although that's fairly normal here, admittedly.

[p_brownstone]

One doesn't simply receive a work permit on day 1 of being a teacher, it can take months for the schools to finish the paperwork for you to receive one. For agencies even longer. It's not uncommon to for schools to take on teachers while on tourist visas. If the teacher is questioned (but why would they be, it's a high status job here and doesn't take jobs from Thais) the school simply explains to authorities that the paperwork is on the way.

I don't really think a Baht 30,000.- a month TEFLER is a "high status job here".

Patrick

[F K Thornbury]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I suspect many chickens will come home to roost on the subject of NON-O visas in the coming months.

Do you mean for retirees or for spouses, etc.? And how so? I have a very hard time believing their is an over-arching xenophobia that is going to result in larger-scale farang purges.

[DennisKL]

My current British Passport has the following :-

Non Immigrant B visa - entered 20th Aug 2013, departed 17 Nov 2013

Visa Exempt - entered 23 Nov 2013, departed 16 Dec 2013

Visa Exempt - entered 30 Dec 2013, departed 24 Jan 2014

Visa Exempt - entered 27 Jan 2014, departed 21 Feb 2014

Visa Exempt - entered 24 Feb 2014, departed 21 Mar 2014

Visa Exempt - entered 24 Mar 2014, departed 22 Apr 2014

Visa Exempt - entered 23 Apr 2014, departed 22 May 2014

60 Tourist Visa - entered 29 May 2014

I have until the 27th July on my current Tourist Visa.

I plan to go for an extension of 30 days at Immigration.

All my trips have been fights out to Hong Kong / Macau and back in after a short holiday.

In my previous passport I had a Non B from Feb 2011 which I used for 15 months (and prior to that a combination of Tourist visa and visa exemption stamps)

I was thinking of enrolling in a 6 month Thai language course and getting the 90 day ED visa and doing one 90 day extension on it. I want to learn Thai, but don't want to commit to a full year of tuition at once.

I'm also wondering if I should skip applying for an extension on my current Tourist visa, so that it look less like I'm trying to stay here as a tourist.

I should also point out that I've been working on setting up my own business here and am close to doing that, but probably still a few months away.

Obviously I am also getting concerned that I may attempt to fly in from Penang or KL (my 2 choices now for my next Tourist Visa or ED visa depending on other factors) and be denied entry based on my visa history.

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers!

Only my opinion of course but I would say that with that History you are going to have severe problems getting back into Thailand under the new restrictions.

Patrick

Get a new passport or a 2nd one.

[sweatalot]

i stop being suprised here years ago.... ..buy a legal visa from a THAI consul (WHO HAVE THE POWER TO REFUSE) and then be refused entry at teh border...idiotic to say the least

It's again worth remembering that possession of a visa doesn't guarantee the holder admission to a country, it's the Immigration Officer at the Border that has the final say, this applies to most countries in the World, including the likes of the UK, the Schengen Area and the United States of America.

This is true but there is one fundamental difference. The UK, USA and many other countries have always been strict on visa entry, Thailand has always been pretty relaxed. So, if Thailand now enforces to such a degree and also inconsistently (as it seems to be doing now) it will cause great confusion.

If they don't make a definitive statement soon and enforce consistently on all boarders then it will cause a lot of issues with genuine tourists which will be a very silly thing for them to do. Once word gets around that even with a tourist visa issued by the Thai embassies are being rejected at the boarder people will book holidays elsewhere.

I think most tourist just get their Visa on arrival at the airport - no need to go to an consulate or an embassy

[JDGRUEN]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I don't understand the shadenfreud either, but you may want to rethink your second point. Aside from it being factually flawed, if one has obtained a non-O multiple-entry visa due to marriage/family, they are in no way "abusing" anything by leaving and re-entering the country multiple times.

They are following the rules in order to be able to stay with loved ones.

You're whining.

Today's rules. If tomorrow the authorities decide you need 5 million in the bank I don't want to see you post here with your idea of fairness, right?

At some point I do suspect - as the current trend implies - a change in the way Non Imm - Multi Entry 'O' people are treated and maybe treated in the same manner as is currently underway for Tourist Visas and Extensions.... But Please Get a Grip on reality ... there is nothing in Thailand Immigration Law that says under current enforcement standards that allowance of multiple exits and entries for Non 'Os' is somehow violating Thai Immigration Law or even the Intent of the law... That is why it is called Multi-Entry... Under such a Visa one can (under current law interpretation) exit and reenter Thailand using a Multi 'O' every month if a person wants to do so ... In Texas we say a person like you is talking through his ass.

[kevozman1]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I don't understand the shadenfreud either, but you may want to rethink your second point. Aside from it being factually flawed, if one has obtained a non-O multiple-entry visa due to marriage/family, they are in no way "abusing" anything by leaving and re-entering the country multiple times.

They are following the rules in order to be able to stay with loved ones.

You're whining.

Today's rules. If tomorrow the authorities decide you need 5 million in the bank I don't want to see you post here with your idea of fairness, right?

Indeed. Not to mention one of the charms of Thailand in the past was how chilled out the place was. The more bureaucracy infringes on tourist the more that charm declines. Your typical TV elitist will slate lower end tourists, back backers etc. But I remember meeting two backpackers who were buming about in Thailand after graduating from Imperial. They will probably be able to afford quite a few holidays thorught out their lifes.

I know my initial interest in Thailand was that of an exotic, beautiful, laid back but somewhat wild country that did not follow so many conventional laws that the west does. Just wonder if they change too much how many people will start looking at alternatives.

[F K Thornbury]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I don't understand the shadenfreud either, but you may want to rethink your second point. Aside from it being factually flawed, if one has obtained a non-O multiple-entry visa due to marriage/family, they are in no way "abusing" anything by leaving and re-entering the country multiple times.

They are following the rules in order to be able to stay with loved ones.

You're whining.

Today's rules. If tomorrow the authorities decide you need 5 million in the bank I don't want to see you post here with your idea of fairness, right?

If they decided to be so exclusionary as to allow only wealthy farangs to raise a family in their spouse's homeland, then you are right, it would be unfair.

[ukrules]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I suspect many chickens will come home to roost on the subject of NON-O visas in the coming months.

Do you mean for retirees or for spouses, etc.? And how so? I have a very hard time believing their is an over-arching xenophobia that is going to result in larger-scale farang purges.

I have no idea but things are changing and they're not changing in the way that was announced before the coup so exactly what can change is anyone's guess.

It's worth noting that the guy in charge of immigration for the whole country has been changed since the coup so the plans may be very different now compared to what they were before the coup.

What I do know is that they announced this :

People using multiple tourist exemptions on 'Out/In' entries will be prevented from doing so.

This is not what happened, since then people with all sorts of visas have been targeted for questioning and turned back / refused entry at various border check points - this was never part of the original plan which only mentioned visa exemptions.

[Pattaya46]

Today's rules. If tomorrow the authorities decide you need 5 million in the bank I don't want to see you post here with your idea of fairness, right?

They have always grandfathered old rules when they have make change for new ones.

Why would them make differently this time ?

[Pattaya46]

This is not what happened, since then people with all sorts of visas have been targeted for questioning and turned back / refused entry at various border check points - this was never part of the original plan which only mentioned visa exemptions.

Can you please show me a report or article of someone with a non-Imm visa being refused entry ?

[jpinx]

i stop being suprised here years ago.... ..buy a legal visa from a THAI consul (WHO HAVE THE POWER TO REFUSE) and then be refused entry at teh border...idiotic to say the least

It's again worth remembering that possession of a visa doesn't guarantee the holder admission to a country, it's the Immigration Officer at the Border that has the final say, this applies to most countries in the World, including the likes of the UK, the Schengen Area and the United States of America.

This is true but there is one fundamental difference. The UK, USA and many other countries have always been strict on visa entry, Thailand has always been pretty relaxed. So, if Thailand now enforces to such a degree and also inconsistently (as it seems to be doing now) it will cause great confusion.

If they don't make a definitive statement soon and enforce consistently on all boarders then it will cause a lot of issues with genuine tourists which will be a very silly thing for them to do. Once word gets around that even with a tourist visa issued by the Thai embassies are being rejected at the boarder people will book holidays elsewhere.

I think most tourist just get their Visa on arrival at the airport - no need to go to an consulate or an embassy

depends on which airline they fly in with........

[OnMyWay2]

I know my initial interest in Thailand was that of an exotic, beautiful, laid back but somewhat wild country that did not follow so many conventional laws that the west does. Just wonder if they change too much how many people will start looking at alternatives.

Welcome to Thailand. This is all part of the wild charm. Rules that exist one day and the next day not!

[patricket]

what about in other border post?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[JDGRUEN]

I'm taking no particular joy from this clampdown, but can it just be said one more time (I'm assuming it has been stated somewhere in this thread already)...

Whether one is under 50 or over 50, rich or poor, law-abiding or corrupt, speak Thai or don't, eat in local establishments or only eat American fastfood: one just can't live wherever they want according to their idea of fairness. Even if it's true that they're just an independently-wealthy, fun-loving tourist.

Period, end of story.

'cept for Thailand, prior to this clampdown, and Thailand in a few months when it blows over.

Yes, you're right on the first point and possibly on the second. I'm talking about in theory, which is why when things revert to the norm and people are caught with their pants down their incredulity is laughable.

And, if you are indeed right on the second point, some people seem to be wasting a lot of energy uneccesarily bashing Thailand in this thread. Although that's fairly normal here, admittedly.

That is because (despite your fantasies otherwise) the incredulity is based on the fact that the people involved were just tourists... they were not thaivisa.com junkies ... they were just being tourists... went for another 30 days and WHAM - door is closed.... Should they have anticipated the denial ? - NO! They were just doing what was allowed ... and convenient and seemingly - normal... But you think that all long stay tourists are slight of hand illegal workers, criminals, etc. who deserve what they get... and yes shallow minded people think like that...

[ukrules]

Can you please show me a report or article of someone with a non-Imm visa being refused entry ?

You'll probably have to search long and hard to find this due to the sheer volume of posts and topics. I believe it was someone on a B visa going to Myanmar / Burma but I can't remember the specifics.

It happened sometime in the last week though, perhaps that will help narrow your search.

Edit : If i stumble across the same report later while browsing I'll post it for you.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ukrules

[DrTuner]

So far in the past few months there was a crackdown of varying degrees on the following:

• 30-day visa exempt stamps
• tourist visas
• NON-ED visas
• multi NON-B visas with no work permit
• medical extensions

For the love of God I can't understand why people with multi entry NON-Os happily cheer the crackdown. Those visas are clearly not intended for permanent stay (that's what 1-year extensions for) and this is why you have to do a border run every 90 days. You are abusing the system in the same way people on back to back tourist visas did, especially if you use the multi NON-O visa to circumvent the requirement of having funds in the Thai bank.

I don't understand the shadenfreud either, but you may want to rethink your second point. Aside from it being factually flawed, if one has obtained a non-O multiple-entry visa due to marriage/family, they are in no way "abusing" anything by leaving and re-entering the country multiple times.

They are following the rules in order to be able to stay with loved ones.

You're whining.

Well, actually when you think about it, why should the visa runners, doing 90-day runs be enabled to stay the whole time same as the ones jumping the hoops by getting yearly extensions ?

Logically the requirements for getting a multi-entry non-imm o should be the same as for extensions. Meaning 400k in the bank or 40k/month income. That way people would automatically be inclined to get the yearly extension, as the visa runs are just another hassle nobody wants. No need to scrap the multi entries completely.

Single entries could well be issued without the financial requirements .. unless people start using them back-to-back like the tourist visas now.

And then for the real solution .. scrap the financial requirements for a PR (I wonder if these even exist for women married to Thai men) for those with Thai dependents. Keep the ones for Thai language, etc. That would provide a clear path for a more permanent residence for those who have a legit reason to stay in Thailand.

[F K Thornbury]

I'm taking no particular joy from this clampdown, but can it just be said one more time (I'm assuming it has been stated somewhere in this thread already)...

Whether one is under 50 or over 50, rich or poor, law-abiding or corrupt, speak Thai or don't, eat in local establishments or only eat American fastfood: one just can't live wherever they want according to their idea of fairness. Even if it's true that they're just an independently-wealthy, fun-loving tourist.

Period, end of story.

'cept for Thailand, prior to this clampdown, and Thailand in a few months when it blows over.

Yes, you're right on the first point and possibly on the second. I'm talking about in theory, which is why when things revert to the norm and people are caught with their pants down their incredulity is laughable.

And, if you are indeed right on the second point, some people seem to be wasting a lot of energy uneccesarily bashing Thailand in this thread. Although that's fairly normal here, admittedly.

That is because (despite your fantasies otherwise) the incredulity is based on the fact that the people involved were just tourists... they were not thaivisa.com junkies ... they were just being tourists... went for another 30 days and WHAM - door is closed.... Should they have anticipated the denial ? - NO! They were just doing what was allowed ... and convenient and seemingly - normal... But you think that all long stay tourists are slight of hand illegal workers, criminals, etc. who deserve what they get... and yes shallow minded people think like that...

I think no such thing, and you have no proof that every one of these people were legit tourists and not the kind that are exploiting loopholes.

But let's say they were: so they got caught up in some TiT-style bureaucracy. They are still being allowed back into the country - albeit, at some extra expense and inconvenience - but they are being allowed back in.

So, no door was closed. They were simply led from the front door to one on the side of the house. So simmer down big fella. Everyone will be much more vigilant after this episode, and if one is caught-up in this sort of snafu going forward it is another TIT-style cluster<deleted> or they were naive.

[Pattaya46]

... based on the fact that the people involved were just tourists...

... they were just being tourists... went for another 30 days and WHAM - door is closed....

And where do you know that from ?

The OPsaid "All of the foreigners who were denied entry had a previous

history of multiple visa exempt entries or back to back tourist visas",

so clearly they were not "just tourists"...

[csabo]

Disclaimer: I have no real skin in this game as I'm on a new non-O multi. I'm just curious.

Are you staying on back to back 90 day entries from a Multi visa? In this case it is clearly an abuse of the rules and not how this visa is intended to be used. If the crackdown continues, these visas may well become the next target after NON-EDs

How is a multi entry visa intended to be used? It's called a multiple entry visa so you can enter multiple times, is it not? So what rules are you referring too (please provide link)? Also, how do you know which visas will be next on the crackdown list or is that just complete speculation of your part?

[BillR]

I'm taking no particular joy from this clampdown, but can it just be said one more time (I'm assuming it has been stated somewhere in this thread already)...

Whether one is under 50 or over 50, rich or poor, law-abiding or corrupt, speak Thai or don't, eat in local establishments or only eat American fastfood: one just can't live wherever they want according to their idea of fairness. Even if it's true that they're just an independently-wealthy, fun-loving tourist.

Period, end of story.

'cept for Thailand, prior to this clampdown, and Thailand in a few months when it blows over.

Yes, you're right on the first point and possibly on the second. I'm talking about in theory, which is why when things revert to the norm and people are caught with their pants down their incredulity is laughable.

And, if you are indeed right on the second point, some people seem to be wasting a lot of energy uneccesarily bashing Thailand in this thread. Although that's fairly normal here, admittedly.

That is because (despite your fantasies otherwise) the incredulity is based on the fact that the people involved were just tourists... they were not thaivisa.com junkies ... they were just being tourists... went for another 30 days and WHAM - door is closed.... Should they have anticipated the denial ? - NO! They were just doing what was allowed ... and convenient and seemingly - normal... But you think that all long stay tourists are slight of hand illegal workers, criminals, etc. who deserve what they get... and yes shallow minded people think like that...

Where you live? Fantasy Land? LOL

[phirho]

if one has obtained a non-O multiple-entry visa due to marriage/family, they are in no way "abusing" anything by leaving and re-entering the country multiple times.

They are following the rules in order to be able to stay with loved ones.

Look at this from the point of view of the immigration officer:

• John received a single-entry NON-O visa and then applied for 1-year extension of stay based on marriage, showing 400k baht in the bank.
• Bob received a multi-entry NON-O from Savannakhet with no funds requirements and does a border run every 90 days

Which one of these is the correct way of permanently staying with the Thai family?

I know 90-day border runs on multi NON-O visas have been tolerated for decades but surely the necessity of border runs is in itself a symptom of not quite complying with the intent of the law.

[Thighlander]

I repeat my question in case somebody has an answer:

DID these guys have an exit ticket from Thailand when they were refused entry at the Southern Border ?

Its not required with tourist visas

except many of the consulate embassies require it with your application. DC, for example.....and they don't even know what a triple is.