Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, thedemon said:

 

I first registered for Autochannel almost 2 years ago and they told me the same thing, that I would need have the system updated after each new Re-Entry. However I have had 2 new Re-Entries since then, haven't done anything and Autochannel is still working.

 

You are supposed to carry your blue/white PR book whenever you travel but so long as you use the Autochannel gates no one would know whether you had it or not. Similarly with the TM6 arrival/departure cards, immigration told me that PR's still need to submit them. However there isn't anyone asking for them and it doesn't seem to matter when I don't submit them.

 

I usually use the Autochannel gates on entry but depart through a manual lane with I/O because it's generally faster due to the security queue at the main area. So my passport (and PR book) has departure stamps but no entry stamps. Doesn't seem to create any problems with Immigration. Occasionally though it confuses the airline check-in staff if they check for the permitted to remain date. 

 

The baskets for TM6 forms at the  electronic gates and the staff standing there to help travellers put the TM6 forms into the baskets must have been removed in October when Thai travellers no longer had to complete them.  The forms are as pointless for PRs as they were for Thais.  This is obviously recognised in practical terms in respect of the electronic gates, even if no one thought to also exempt PRs from having to fill them out.  A lot of people must be  making good income from the printing of these cards, and the ones dropped in the baskets at electronic gates represented only a small proportion of the total. But I guess there will be a lot of resistance against stopping the issuance of them for foreigners.

[onthemoon]

20 minutes ago, Arkady said:

You are right re the pointlessness today of the blue and white books.  The red book is even more of an anachronism.  It pre-dates the issue of ID cards for Thai nationals.  Following the first Immigration Act in 1927 the Thai government devised the system to to keep track of the large numbers of Chinese immigrants, some of whom were involved in triad criminal gangs.  So the police stations were logically given the job of issuing the books and tracking their movements.  The alien book needed to be carried at all times to be presented on demand to police by Chinese who were could often be recognised by their Chinese dress and hair styles.  The modern day equivalent is the pink ID card for migrant workers (and PRs).  However, the redundant system of alien books continues to run in parallel with no one knowing or caring what was the original reason for it.  There are a lot people employed at Immigration and in police stations to issue these books.  At police stations there is a man who sits with a  sign in front of him denoting him as the officer of in charge of issuing alien books.   These are plum jobs with only a few minutes work needed per day on average that need to be preserved at all costs.  It is hardly surprising that the officer is often absent from his desk . 

Hm. The books must have been printed in 1927 too, the way they look. What happens if they run out?

[Arkady]

On 1/5/2018 at 5:03 PM, onthemoon said:

Hm. The books must have been printed in 1927 too, the way they look. What happens if they run out?

 

The books never run out. They have enough spaces for new photographs, profession changes, endorsements, address changes etc to last anyone a lifetime.  I once asked the alien registration officer in my local cop shop if could get a replacement because I had taped mine up several times after the spine cracked and he told me that was impossible and showed me a pile of alien books in much worse shape than mine.  He opened up one of them in a name of a Chinese lady which had about half a dozen replacement photos in in, showing her progressive aging over the decades, and still had room for more.  It looked it like had been carried daily for decades as a personal ID document and was basically a piece of mush.  He told me it was still perfectly OK and definitely would not be replaced, so I should not even think of asking for a replacement.  I think you can only a new one if your has been lost or destroyed by fire and I imagine it could a tedious process, so take good care of them. 

 

The book that I got did look like it was from very old stock and the glue was already dried out but I can't say, if it was an original 1927 edition or not.

[onthemoon]

6 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

The books never run out. They have enough spaces for new photographs, profession changes, endorsements, address changes etc to last anyone a lifetime.  I once asked the alien registration officer in my local cop shop if could get a replacement because I had taped mine up several times after the spine cracked and he told me that was impossible and showed me a pile of alien books in much worse shape than mine.  He opened up one of them in a name of a Chinese lady which had about half a dozen replacement photos in in, showing her progressive aging over the decades, and still had room for more.  It looked it like had been carried daily for decades as a personal ID document and was basically a piece of mush.  He told me it was still perfectly OK and definitely would not be replaced, so I should not even think of asking for a replacement.  I think you can only a new one if your has been lost or destroyed by fire and I imagine it could a tedious process, so take good care of them. 

 

The book that I got did look like it was from very old stock and the glue was already dried out but I can't say, if it was an original 1927 edition or not.

I didn't mean the book running out of space, I meant the police running out of books for new PRs. They should change the law before they have to print a new batch for the next100 years.

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I didn't mean the book running out of space, I meant the police running out of books for new PRs. They should change the law before they have to print a new batch for the next100 years.

 

LOL. Of course they would not change the law to switch to the issue of smart cards when the red blanks run out. This would be a big opportunity to hold a bid with huge commission potential to print the second 100 year supply of red books. The winner would have to replicate the old style glue made from animal parts to ensure it cracked in no less than 5 years.  Once this is done and the commissions safely banked, they could then change the law and sell the books to a property developer for use as landfill.

[skippybangkok]

 
LOL. Of course they would not change the law to switch to the issue of smart cards when the red blanks run out. This would be a big opportunity to hold a bid with huge commission potential to print the second 100 year supply of red books. The winner would have to replicate the old style glue made from animal parts to ensure it cracked in no less than 5 years.  Once this is done and the commissions safely banked, they could then change the law and sell the books to a property developer for use as landfill.

Maybe they should make those red books even larger - so to make it even more inconvenient to carry around


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[orientalist]

On 1/5/2018 at 8:14 AM, thedemon said:

 

I first registered for Autochannel almost 2 years ago and they told me the same thing, that I would need have the system updated after each new Re-Entry. However I have had 2 new Re-Entries since then, haven't done anything and Autochannel is still working.

 

You are supposed to carry your blue/white PR book whenever you travel but so long as you use the Autochannel gates no one would know whether you had it or not. Similarly with the TM6 arrival/departure cards, immigration told me that PR's still need to submit them. However there isn't anyone asking for them and it doesn't seem to matter when I don't submit them.

 

I usually use the Autochannel gates on entry but depart through a manual lane with I/O because it's generally faster due to the security queue at the main area. So my passport (and PR book) has departure stamps but no entry stamps. Doesn't seem to create any problems with Immigration. Occasionally though it confuses the airline check-in staff if they check for the permitted to remain date. 

 

I haven't registered yet, but when I apply for my annual tax refund the Revenue Dept insists on getting a full copy of my passport - apparently to make sure I was in the country for 180 days - so I wonder what problems that might cause if I had an exit stamp without an entry stamp in any one year? Hopefully, the autochannels will never break down when I am entering the country.

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, orientalist said:

 

I haven't registered yet, but when I apply for my annual tax refund the Revenue Dept insists on getting a full copy of my passport - apparently to make sure I was in the country for 180 days - so I wonder what problems that might cause if I had an exit stamp without an entry stamp in any one year? Hopefully, the autochannels will never break down when I am entering the country.

Is the Revenue Dept worried that you might be voluntarily paying tax, even though you were in the country for less than 180 days?  There was clearly no coherent thought behind the request for the useless copy of your passport, except the usual bureaucratic instinct to demand more trees to be cut down for no reason.

[orientalist]

11 hours ago, Arkady said:

Is the Revenue Dept worried that you might be voluntarily paying tax, even though you were in the country for less than 180 days?  There was clearly no coherent thought behind the request for the useless copy of your passport, except the usual bureaucratic instinct to demand more trees to be cut down for no reason.

 

I couldn't get a clear explanation from them, but all branches seem to have this requirement when submitting a Por Ngor Dor 90 and requesting a refund. Perhaps there is some rule that if one is not tax-resident in the year a refund cannot be requested?

[beeper]

Any PR holders can share experience of getting a mortgage for 2 to 3 years for property purchase that is not tied to a Thai person being the owner? Buying condo in my own name.

I am interested in best banks to talk to/ avoid. Interest rates offered, pitfalls, etc

Thanks


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[KevT]

So this year the PR application window was December 12-29. How does this affect taxes? If the tax year is from Jan. 1 to Dec. 31, doesn't that mean you have to do a whole extra year of work/taxes, because the application window is just a few days before?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, KevT said:

So this year the PR application window was December 12-29. How does this affect taxes? If the tax year is from Jan. 1 to Dec. 31, doesn't that mean you have to do a whole extra year of work/taxes, because the application window is just a few days before?

You need 3 years proof of tax payments.

Normally they will allow to you to submit the current year's tax return after your application is accepted.

[KevT]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You need 3 years proof of tax payments.

Ah yes, but for the 80K per month / 100K taxes in the year, it's 2 years, right?

 

10 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Normally they will allow to you to submit the current year's tax return after your application is accepted.

That is good news. By normally, is it in most cases, or sometimes?

[orientalist]

3 minutes ago, KevT said:

 

That is good news. By normally, is it in most cases, or sometimes?

 

They have to allow it because they insist you submit the latest 3 years' tax returns, including the year of applying for PR. I had over a decade of tax returns, but they still wanted the return from the current year.

[thedemon]

4 hours ago, beeper said:

Any PR holders can share experience of getting a mortgage for 2 to 3 years for property purchase that is not tied to a Thai person being the owner? Buying condo in my own name.

I am interested in best banks to talk to/ avoid. Interest rates offered, pitfalls, etc

Thanks


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

I bought a couple of condos a few years ago with a mortgage from Kasikorn. As far as I was aware the process and bank regulations were no different than they would have been for a Thai citizen.

 

I don't recall any pitfalls or difficulties not even with the Land Department which I was half expecting. The only documentation I presented to the LD was pink ID card and Tabien Baan. 

 

The condos I bought were second hand so the first step was to have the bank's appraisal company do a valuation. That might not be necessary for a new condo. I'm not sure.

 

[SteveB2]

8 hours ago, KevT said:

Ah yes, but for the 80K per month / 100K taxes in the year, it's 2 years, right?

 

That is good news. By normally, is it in most cases, or sometimes?

 

I was informed by the CW PR team that 80K per year is the lowest possible salary to get an application even considered.

 

Understand  that your PR application will then have to pass a secret scoring system.

 

An 80K monthly salary and would grant you just 1 out of 5 possible points used in the scoring system to assess PR applicants.

 

If possible, at least start paying tax at a more 'desirable to Thailand' salary level. 

 

How much?

200K /month

 

Hints/Why:-

 

Consider the new Thailand Professional visa just introduced that has a 200,000 Baht monthly salary entry level or about USD75,000 annual salary.

USD75K would just about be considered a starter salary for a professional worker in the USA

About 5,000 applicants are expected to apply for this new visa type

Ref: http://www.businessinsider.com/highest-paying-jobs-in-america-2017-3/#-15

 

Compare this with the minimum 80K/month PR application requirement. That is just USD2,500/month, USD30,000/year salary. 

USD2,500/month is really low end. Not the rare breed that the PR team has in mind or PR holders.

Sometimes less than a hundred PR applicants are approved per year.

Ref: http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2015/07/09/average-salaries-for-americans-median-salaries-for-common-jobs.html

 

I was informed to my face directly by a member of the CW PR team that applicants with such a low monthly salary will definitely  have problems passing the application scoring test - your application scoring would have to be brilliant in all other areas so as to score enough points to pass muster  - such as having lived and worked full time in Thailand 15 years or more, Married to a Thai for more than 10 years, Supporting Thai children of the marriage , Master degree or higher education, fluent read/write in Thai language... and other (cough, cough  ) requirements. 

 

 

 

[brd]

Camerata many thanks to you for sharing with all of us what is an excellent set of informations.

Possibly for foreign fathers raising i,e, one step son and two biological sons married officially 14 years ago still living under the same roof there may have simplified formulations from what we have read from your own application.

Not easy nor simple and with the ten Nations common market may be even more restrictive.

With kind regards wishing you the very best of Thailand.

Edited January 22, 2018 by brd

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, brd said:

Possibly for foreign fathers raising i,e, one step son and two biological sons married officially 14 years ago there may have simplified formulations from what we read from your own application.

Best to apply for Thai nationality rather to than PR if you wife is Thai. You would need to be working with a work permit and paying taxes on a income of at least 40k baht. Since you have children you would only need to be on extensions and working for a year.

[Arkady]

27 minutes ago, SteveB2 said:

 

I was informed by the CW PR team that 80K per year is the lowest possible salary to get an application even considered.

 

Understand  that your PR application will then have to pass a secret scoring system.

 

An 80K monthly salary and would grant you just 1 out of 5 possible points used in the scoring system to assess PR applicants.

 

If possible, at least start paying tax at a more 'desirable to Thailand' salary level. 

 

How much?

200K /month

 

Hints/Why:-

 

Consider the new Thailand Professional visa just introduced that has a 200,000 Baht monthly salary entry level or about USD75,000 annual salary.

USD75K would just about be considered a starter salary for a professional worker in the USA

About 5,000 applicants are expected to apply for this new visa type

Ref: http://www.businessinsider.com/highest-paying-jobs-in-america-2017-3/#-15

 

Compare this with the minimum 80K/month PR application requirement. That is just USD2,500/month, USD30,000/year salary. 

USD2,500/month is really low end. Not the rare breed that the PR team has in mind or PR holders.

Sometimes less than a hundred PR applicants are approved per year.

Ref: http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2015/07/09/average-salaries-for-americans-median-salaries-for-common-jobs.html

 

I was informed to my face directly by a member of the CW PR team that applicants with such a low monthly salary will definitely  have problems passing the application scoring test - your application scoring would have to be brilliant in all other areas so as to score enough points to pass muster  - such as having lived and worked full time in Thailand 15 years or more, Married to a Thai for more than 10 years, Supporting Thai children of the marriage , Master degree or higher education, fluent read/write in Thai language... and other (cough, cough  ) requirements. 

 

 

I don't doubt any of this but I wonder how many PR applicants get rejected for failing to meet the secret points system as a result of earning only B80k a month or not much more, or not being married to a Thai and sprogging with her. Perhaps there are many but none have reported that here. When I applied I was fairly comfortably over the presumed minimum salary level but didn't have any of the other things mentioned, i.e. I had not been working in Thailand for 15 years plus, was not married to a Thai, had no masters degree, and was fluent reading and writing Thai.  At no time did anyone suggest that any of these things mattered.  The only thing that Immigration told me was a no no at the time was working for a company that had less than B5 million paid-up capital because they were suspicious of employers with the minimum B2 million needed for a WP, in case they are fake companies set up just to provide a WP.  Times change but I am still surprised that no one has reported falling foul of the secret points system.  It could be that Immigration just never gets back to them but most of those who got held up in the long freeze have now either been approved or given up posting that they have heard nothing.  

 

If anyone meets the minimum qualifications but only scrapes through on salary, I would not be put off from applying, whatever CW may tell you to put you off.  However, as Joe says, anyone with a Thai wife can apply for citizenship anyway without bothering to get PR first since 2008 and the salary required is only B40,000 a month.  The citizenship application process has an overt points system and I know for a fact that quite a few people who were only earning B40,000 or a little more have already got their citizenship.

[onthemoon]

14 hours ago, beeper said:

Any PR holders can share experience of getting a mortgage for 2 to 3 years for property purchase that is not tied to a Thai person being the owner? Buying condo in my own name.

I am interested in best banks to talk to/ avoid. Interest rates offered, pitfalls, etc

Thanks

I first went to SCB, and they said they cannot put the passport number into the system any more. I said they should put my (pink) Thai ID number in, but they said they cannot do that, because I am a foreigner and they would need to use the passport number...

 

Went next door to BBL, and everything went without problem.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I first went to SCB, and they said they cannot put the passport number into the system any more. I said they should put my (pink) Thai ID number in, but they said they cannot do that, because I am a foreigner and they would need to use the passport number...

 

Went next door to BBL, and everything went without problem.

 

SCB is pathetic at this sort of thing.  They point blank refused change the nationality in my account to Thai when I got my Thai citizenship.  No other bank had a problem with this, although BBL made a huge meal out of it.  KBANK did it in a couple of minutes without demanding any document copies at all - just stuck my ID card in an electronic reader and it was done.    

[mortenaa]

A silly question. My Thai is OK, but I can't seem to explain to Thais that I am a permanent resident. What kind of words (in Thai) do you guys use, and how do you explain it? 

 

Thx

[MikeyIdea]

 

7 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

SCB is pathetic at this sort of thing.  They point blank refused change the nationality in my account to Thai when I got my Thai citizenship.  No other bank had a problem with this, although BBL made a huge meal out of it.  KBANK did it in a couple of minutes without demanding any document copies at all - just stuck my ID card in an electronic reader and it was done.    

Both SCB and BBL told me that it is not possible to change status of an existing account, BBL offered that they can help me open up a new account and I must provide (pink) id card and *blue* tabien baan in original as supporting documentation and that their HQ specifically had told them not to accept yellow tabien baan. SCB didn't volunteer any information except that it couldn't be done but agreed that I could open up a new account using my (pink) ID card and blue tabien baan when I specifically wanted an answer to that question.

 

The most important thing: Both BBL and SCB confirmed that I must use both pink ID card and blue tabien baan as identification, pink ID only not enough. Not worth it since I still would have to bring a document I normally don't have with me.

 

And BBL quite often do not accept my signature as I am bad at writing the same signature as in their system, I get a second try and they threaten that they will refuse me to take out money if I don't get the third try the same even if I provide passport, blue tabien baan, work permit and pink ID card to prove who I am - they photo copy but don't even look at the ID(s) I provide. SCB may ask for a second signature but will always check me against the passport and accept if it is not the same => I find SCB safer

 

Edit: This is experience from Siam Square in the past and EmQuartier now

Edited January 23, 2018 by MikeyIdea

[THAIJAMES]

7 hours ago, mortenaa said:

A silly question. My Thai is OK, but I can't seem to explain to Thais that I am a permanent resident. What kind of words (in Thai) do you guys use, and how do you explain it? 

 

Thx

No kind of official wording has ever worked for me.

I just say I have permission to stay here forever.

Dai anuyat yu dai talod pai

Which always raises questions anyways :)

Edited January 23, 2018 by THAIJAMES

[thedemon]

8 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

No kind of official wording has ever worked for me.

I just say I have permission to stay here forever.

Dai anuyat yu dai talod pai

Which always raises questions anyways :)

 

Similar for me.

 

Ironically what often does work is if I say that PR is comparable to a "green card" in America. Most Thai's have some idea what that is.

[MikeyIdea]

Taaworn ถาวร works with office Thai's for me

[orientalist]

The dictionary translates permanent residence as:

ที่อาศัยถาวร
theeF aaM saiR thaaR waawnM

 

http://www.thai-language.com/id/219794

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, mortenaa said:

A silly question. My Thai is OK, but I can't seem to explain to Thais that I am a permanent resident. What kind of words (in Thai) do you guys use, and how do you explain it? 

 

Thx

 

This is a very good question which is quite vexing to PRs, since few Thais outside government offices know what PR is. Here are my experiences during my 18 years as a PR. 

 

1. "Bai thin thi yuu taworn".  The most correct term (the residence book is known as ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ without the "taworn" for some reason) but is probably the least understood outside government.

 

2. "Bai tang tao" or alien book.  Works quite well with Chinese Thais because most know of elderly Chinese migrants who never got Thai nationality and carry or carried red books everywhere for ID purposes.  However, many believe that alien books are only issued to Chinese!

 

3. Green card. Better educated Thais know what a green card is, so you can say you have the Thai equivalent to a green card. However, it is nowhere close to a green card which allows you nearly all the rights of a US citizen, except the right to vote.  So I would only make the comparison through gritted teeth.

 

4. "Visa talort cheep".  Saying I had a lifetime visa was rather vague but worked reasonably well with a cross section of Thais.

 

Finally you need to get out of this vague limbo status with limited rights as soon as you can and apply for citizenship.  I procrastinated far too long but it is worth it, just to have a status that is readily understood and not to have to present photocopies of all 5 books. As a bonus at 60 you get the old age allowance of B600 a month and 50% discount senior cards on the BTS.

 

 

[Arkady]

12 minutes ago, orientalist said:

The dictionary translates permanent residence as:

ที่อาศัยถาวร
theeF aaM saiR thaaR waawnM

 

http://www.thai-language.com/id/219794

 

That is absolutely correct but simply conveys the meaning, "the place where someone resides permanently" rather than being an official or commonly understood term meaning that someone has PR status in the Kingdom.

[orientalist]

30 minutes ago, Arkady said:

2. "Bai tang tao" or alien book.  Works quite well with Chinese Thais because most know of elderly Chinese migrants who never got Thai nationality and carry or carried red books everywhere for ID purposes.  However, many believe that alien books are only issued to Chinese!

 

I was at a police checkpoint near the Burmese border a couple of years ago, and it was the one time I tried showing them my driving licence. They insisted on seeing my passport, looked through it and said, "Where is your visa?" I said, "No visa. I have a bai tang dao." What's that? they said, to which I replied words to the effect that I had the right to stay in Thailand forever (I didn't have a pink card at the time). Eventually, they were convinced by the multiple entry stamps that had no "Allowed to stay until" date.

 

These days I take a photocopy of my Alien's Book when I'm in the upper north. Not sure I'd want to flash the pink card near the border, given that it was originally designed for migrant labourers. However, it's rare that the police even look at the passport of Westerners at all.