Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[skippybangkok]

 
I was at a police checkpoint near the Burmese border a couple of years ago, and it was the one time I tried showing them my driving licence. They insisted on seeing my passport, looked through it and said, "Where is your visa?" I said, "No visa. I have a bai tang dao." What's that? they said, to which I replied words to the effect that I had the right to stay in Thailand forever (I didn't have a pink card at the time). Eventually, they were convinced by the multiple entry stamps that had no "Allowed to stay until" date.
 
These days I take a photocopy of my Alien's Book when I'm in the upper north. Not sure I'd want to flash the pink card near the border, given that it was originally designed for migrant labourers. However, it's rare that the police even look at the passport of Westerners at all.

Lol

I got sick and tired of trying to tell people I did not need a visa, so just gave up and showed the re-entry visa

They swallow it hook line and sinker and dutifully record its details :)


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[thedemon]

23 minutes ago, skippybangkok said:

 

 

Lol

I got sick and tired of trying to tell people I did not need a visa, so just gave up and showed the re-entry visa

They swallow it hook line and sinker and dutifully record its details :)


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Supposedly it is permissible for a PR to let their passport expire and not renew it.

 

Can you imagine trying to explain that you not only don't need a visa but don't need a passport either.

 

Should be good for a laugh................ after you're released from jail. 

[Arkady]

4 minutes ago, thedemon said:

 

Supposedly it is permissible for a PR to let their passport expire and not renew it.

 

Can you imagine trying to explain that you not only don't need a visa but don't need a passport either.

 

Should be good for a laugh................ after you're released from jail. 

 

It's certainly OK not to renew your re-entry endorsement, if you don't want to travel abroad, but I believe PRs must be covered by a regulation that requires maintenance of a valid passport.  But theoretically, of course, if your alien book was universally accepted as ID and you didn't want to travel, you could get away without a valid passport until you need to re-endorse your alien book at the 5 year intervals.  I expect this happened a lot with the old Chinese PRs when the alien book was still accepted as ID.

[skippybangkok]

 
It's certainly OK not to renew your re-entry endorsement, if you don't want to travel abroad, but I believe PRs must be covered by a regulation that requires maintenance of a valid passport.  But theoretically, of course, if your alien book was universally accepted as ID and you didn't want to travel, you could get away without a valid passport until you need to re-endorse your alien book at the 5 year intervals.  I expect this happened a lot with the old Chinese PRs when the alien book was still accepted as ID.

I can’t remember anymore - I don’t recall having to show my passport to update the red book every 5 yes


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[ubonjoe]

59 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

It's certainly OK not to renew your re-entry endorsement, if you don't want to travel abroad, but I believe PRs must be covered by a regulation that requires maintenance of a valid passport. 

I don't think they have to have a valid passport. The immigration act states it is not needed.

 

Quote

Chapter 7 Miscellaneous

Section 58 : Any alien who has no lawful document for entering the Kingdom under Section 12 (1); or
has no Residence Certificate under this Act; and also has no identification in accordance with the Law on
Alien registration, is considered to have entered into the Kingdom in violation to this Act.

 

Section 12 : Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into the Kingdom

1. Having no genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of passport ; or having a
genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of a passport without Visaing by the Royal Thai
Embassies or Consulates in Foreign countries ; or from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs , excepting if a visa
is not required for certain types of aliens in special instances.
 

 

[Arkady]

12 minutes ago, skippybangkok said:

 

 

I can’t remember anymore - I don’t recall having to show my passport to update the red book every 5 yes


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I thought they wanted everything, passport, tabien baan, residence book, work permit if working but it might depend on what the individual cop wants to ask for.  One annoying problem I encountered was that I needed to renew my WP and the alien book needed endorsing a couple of weeks later.  The Labour Ministry forced me to re-endorse the red book for another 5 years first or they would just issue a WP that expired on the same date as the red book.  Ridiculous, since the endorsement was only a formality, and it had me running around to get the police to endorse the red book before the WP expired and I would have had a broken WP record for citizenship application.  The policeman in charge of alien registration at my local cop shop said he couldn't sign the red book himself and didn't know when his boss would be back from whatever gold course he was assigned to for duty that day.  When Mrs Arkady pleaded with him that it was extremely urgent due the WP complication, he just said, "Well, in that case..." and  picked up a pen and signed it himself. LOL.   

[Michael Hare]

I take in everything I think that will be needed, in case during that 5 year interval, some rules have changed. However, everytime I go, all they need is the red book to extent the 5 year period, 800 baht, and ask for a photograph. Maybe two photgraphs. Last time, one photograph got stuck into the page, one over from the main photograph page. I think this may only happen every 10 years, in order to show photos of your face aging. 

 

 

[orientalist]

When I first renewed my driving licence with PR status at Chatuchak office they insisted I must have a valid non-quota immigrant visa. I argued with them for 10 minutes about this not making any sense and they even called out a supervisor, but they absolutely refused to let me renew without what we know to be just a stamp permitting me to leave the country and come back again. When I later complained to Immigration about this they just said, "They don't understand the rules."

 

I think even the two main documents PR holders have are misnamed. The Alien's Book is in fact a certificate of residence; the Residence book is really a re-entry book.

[skyaslimit]

The worst thing is, this red alien's book does not have your 13 digit ID number on it, so if you are using it as an ID then you have to present your blue thabian too and as soon as you present your thabian baan which also indicates your original nationality you have to present your Passport and when you present your original passport without any entry stamps !!!! You are back to square one.


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[skyaslimit]

Altough I was successful to renew my driver's licence at Jatuchak without presenting my passport or entry stamps.


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[Arkady]

31 minutes ago, skyaslimit said:

The worst thing is, this red alien's book does not have your 13 digit ID number on it, so if you are using it as an ID then you have to present your blue thabian too and as soon as you present your thabian baan which also indicates your original nationality you have to present your Passport and when you present your original passport without any entry stamps !!!! You are back to square one.
 

 

I am pretty sure the red books pre-date tabien baans and ID cards which only started after the first census in the early 50s.  In the intervening 60 years no one has thought of updating the alien book format to include the alien's ID number.

[KevT]

On 1/22/2018 at 5:14 AM, SteveB2 said:

I was informed by the CW PR team that 80K per year is the lowest possible salary to get an application even considered.

 

Understand  that your PR application will then have to pass a secret scoring system.

 

An 80K monthly salary and would grant you just 1 out of 5 possible points used in the scoring system to assess PR applicants.

 

[...]

 

I was informed to my face directly by a member of the CW PR team that applicants with such a low monthly salary will definitely  have problems passing the application scoring test - your application scoring would have to be brilliant in all other areas so as to score enough points to pass muster  - such as having lived and worked full time in Thailand 15 years or more, Married to a Thai for more than 10 years, Supporting Thai children of the marriage , Master degree or higher education, fluent read/write in Thai language... and other (cough, cough  ) requirements. 

 

On 1/22/2018 at 6:01 AM, Arkady said:

I don't doubt any of this but I wonder how many PR applicants get rejected for failing to meet the secret points system as a result of earning only B80k a month or not much more, or not being married to a Thai and sprogging with her. Perhaps there are many but none have reported that here. When I applied I was fairly comfortably over the presumed minimum salary level but didn't have any of the other things mentioned, i.e. I had not been working in Thailand for 15 years plus, was not married to a Thai, had no masters degree, and was fluent reading and writing Thai.  At no time did anyone suggest that any of these things mattered.  The only thing that Immigration told me was a no no at the time was working for a company that had less than B5 million paid-up capital because they were suspicious of employers with the minimum B2 million needed for a WP, in case they are fake companies set up just to provide a WP.  Times change but I am still surprised that no one has reported falling foul of the secret points system.  It could be that Immigration just never gets back to them but most of those who got held up in the long freeze have now either been approved or given up posting that they have heard nothing.  

 

If anyone meets the minimum qualifications but only scrapes through on salary, I would not be put off from applying, whatever CW may tell you to put you off.  However, as Joe says, anyone with a Thai wife can apply for citizenship anyway without bothering to get PR first since 2008 and the salary required is only B40,000 a month.  The citizenship application process has an overt points system and I know for a fact that quite a few people who were only earning B40,000 or a little more have already got their citizenship.

So the salary requirement is not just a 'yes' or 'no', but it would seem to be fully point-based?

 

In 3.2.3 of the 'Criterion and conditions of foreign nationals’ residential permit consideration' document, it states that:

 

Quote

Earn annual income at least Baht 80,000 per month for a period of at least 2 years, up to the date of application submission, or have been filing tax return for the amount of annual income of Baht 100,000 for at least 2 consecutive years, up to the date of application submission.

From the above, the criterion would be one or the other and not have to be both, as 80K/mo would equate to 192K yearly in taxes (making pointing out 100K illogical), no? 

 

If you do the math, with a salary of 65K/mo—or 780K yearly (for 12 months)—at 20% (income tax, section 3.1), it equals 156K paid in taxes during the year. This is correct? In theory, wouldn't it (156K in taxes) fulfill the 3.2.3 criterion?

Edited January 24, 2018 by KevT

[KevT]

On 1/22/2018 at 5:14 AM, SteveB2 said:

I was informed to my face directly by a member of the CW PR team that applicants with such a low monthly salary will definitely  have problems passing the application scoring test - your application scoring would have to be brilliant in all other areas so as to score enough points to pass muster  - such as having lived and worked full time in Thailand 15 years or more, Married to a Thai for more than 10 years, Supporting Thai children of the marriage , Master degree or higher education, fluent read/write in Thai language... and other (cough, cough  ) requirements. 

 

 

 

Regarding the PR points system, I'm guessing it hasn't been divulged at all like the one for citizenship (or maybe it will never be). However, with Steve's points of years having worked in Thailand, marriage, kids, master's/higher education, fluent/read/write in Thai—have those been confirmed (i.e., proof) of being part of the undisclosed PR point system? 

Edited January 24, 2018 by KevT

[THAIJAMES]

On 1/23/2018 at 8:41 AM, thedemon said:

 

Similar for me.

 

Ironically what often does work is if I say that PR is comparable to a "green card" in America. Most Thai's have some idea what that is.

I was also going to same the same thing :)

[blackcab]

54 minutes ago, KevT said:

From the above, the criterion would be one or the other and not have to be both, as 80K/mo would equate to 192K yearly in taxes (making pointing out 100K illogical), no? 

 

If you do the math, with a salary of 65K/mo—or 780K yearly (for 12 months)—at 20% (income tax, section 3.1), it equals 156K paid in taxes during the year. This is correct? In theory, wouldn't it (156K in taxes) fulfill the 3.2.3 criterion?

 

Personal income tax on 80k per month would be a maximum of 73,200 baht per year. Less if you have additional allowances and deductions.

 

To pay 100k personal income tax annually your monthly salary would be something like 98k monthly with only the most basic allowances and deductions.

 

Personal income tax is progressive, rather than being one fixed rate:

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, KevT said:

 

So the salary requirement is not just a 'yes' or 'no', but it would seem to be fully point-based?

 

In 3.2.3 of the 'Criterion and conditions of foreign nationals’ residential permit consideration' document, it states that:

 

From the above, the criterion would be one or the other and not have to be both, as 80K/mo would equate to 192K yearly in taxes (making pointing out 100K illogical), no? 

 

If you do the math, with a salary of 65K/mo—or 780K yearly (for 12 months)—at 20% (income tax, section 3.1), it equals 156K paid in taxes during the year. This is correct? In theory, wouldn't it (156K in taxes) fulfill the 3.2.3 criterion?

 

Re salary requirement, if your question is to do with citizenship the answer is yes to both.  You need to make the minimum salary (40k with Thai wife and 80k without) and points elsewhere cannot compensate, if you are below the minimum.  However, if you are above the minimum, points are allocated as follows.

 

With Thai wife

40,000 to 50,000 – 15 points
50,000 to 60,000 – 20 points
Over 60,000 – 25 points

 

Without Thai wife

80,000 to 90,000 – 15 points
90,000 to 100,000 – 20 points
Over 100,000 – 25 points

 

The provisions for a minimum payment of income tax on the salary as an alternative to minimum salary have never made any sense to me and I suspect they weren't properly thought out or may be orphaned from some earlier provisions that did make sense, perhaps when tax rates were much higher and tax bands were lower. Orphaned regulations are typical in Thailand, e.g. the requirement to register a Thai name for citizenship, even though you are no longer required to use it.  If anyone can explain it, please post.

 

Personally I find it utterly despicable, if Immigration operates a secret points system for PR.  If they believe it is justifiable, they should disclose it and issue the appropriate National Police Order, so it can be enforced transparently without lawyers telling people they get around it, if you pay them a bribe.  All the more reason to skip PR and go straight for citizenship, which is a much easier and more transparent process, if you have a Thai wife.   You also get to apply on any working day of the year, instead of having to wait for a ridiculous two week window over the Christmas holidays.     

 

 

 

   

 

[jayboy]

Hmm.I’m not a particularly recent PR but clearly things have changed.At no time did I get the impression that my Thai wife/children counted for or against me.I suspect Immigration was conned into thinking my Cambridge M.A was in fact a further degree.(I didn’t disabuse them).I got the impression it mattered I had then (sigh / not now)a large salary - several multiples of the minimum and the tax payments to prove it.Most important I had a letter which as my lawyer said made it impossible to turn me down - while stressing I met all the criteria.My Thai is of the cheap and cheerful variety - but I conned my way through the test.

If I’m honest I think there was an unwritten test of whether they liked the cut of your jib or not.If there was a points system I was entirely unaware of it.


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[KevT]

1 hour ago, blackcab said:

 

Personal income tax on 80k per month would be a maximum of 73,200 baht per year. Less if you have additional allowances and deductions.

 

To pay 100k personal income tax annually your monthly salary would be something like 98k monthly with only the most basic allowances and deductions.

 

Personal income tax is progressive, rather than being one fixed rate:

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

Ah, yes. The 80K or 100K in taxes works out. Without allowances/deductions, 100K in taxes would equate to about 84K/mo.

[KevT]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

Personally I find it utterly despicable, if Immigration operates a secret points system for PR.  If they believe it is justifiable, they should disclose it and issue the appropriate National Police Order, so it can be enforced transparently without lawyers telling people they get around it, if you pay them a bribe.  All the more reason to skip PR and go straight for citizenship, which is a much easier and more transparent process, if you have a Thai wife.   You also get to apply on any working day of the year, instead of having to wait for a ridiculous two week window over the Christmas holidays.

If there is a points system for PR, it would be so much better to disclose it. The only criteria given at the moment are 3 years work permit, 2 years taxes at 80K/month, 1 year same company. It especially sucks for salary. If 80K/mo is only 1 point out of 5—rather than 'yes' or 'no'—you should find a job that pays 130K/mo to get 3 points—all the while not knowing because we don't know if there is a point system?

 

Most importantly, with citizenship, is the point system not out of 100 where 50 is a "1" (or pass) and below 50 is a "0" (fail)? After the point system for citizenship, 95 points vs. 55 points are exactly the same thing, correct? Do you think it would it be the same thing for PR? Or someone with 95 points would have a much better chance at PR than the one with only 55 points?

Edited January 24, 2018 by KevT

[blackcab]

29 minutes ago, KevT said:

Ah, yes. The 80K or 100K in taxes works out. Without allowances/deductions, 100K in taxes would equate to about 84K/mo.

 

Everyone gets some deductions, even if it is the standard 60k/100k. However you don't have to tick the box to claim allowances and deductions if you want to volunteer to pay more tax than is legally required.

 

Personally I claim for everything I am entitled.

[KevT]

10 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

Everyone gets some deductions, even if it is the standard 60k/100k. However you don't have to tick the box to claim allowances and deductions if you want to volunteer to pay more tax than is legally required.

 

Personally I claim for everything I am entitled.

It could be a useful option if the 100K in taxes would not equate to more than the 80K/mo (like Arkady said, the clause makes no sense). But just out of curiosity, if the 100K in taxes would equate to say 70K/mo, would it be illegal/bad to not claim deductions (to meet the PR criterion), or do you think it would be 100% fine/legal?

Edited January 24, 2018 by KevT

[blackcab]

9 minutes ago, KevT said:

It could be a useful option if the 100K in taxes would not equate to more than the 80K/mo (like Arkady said, the clause makes no sense). But just out of curiosity, if the 100K in taxes would equate to say 70K/mo, would it be illegal/bad to not claim deductions (to meet the PR criterion), or do you think it would be 100% fine/legal?

 

100k in yearly income tax is about 98k salary a month, claiming only the standard 100k allowance.

 

You don't have to claim for anything you're entitled to - it's up to you.

[Michael Hare]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Hmm.I’m not a particularly recent PR but clearly things have changed.At no time did I get the impression that my Thai wife/children counted for or against me.I suspect Immigration was conned into thinking my Cambridge M.A was in fact a further degree.(I didn’t disabuse them).I got the impression it mattered I had then (sigh / not now)a large salary - several multiples of the minimum and the tax payments to prove it.Most important I had a letter which as my lawyer said made it impossible to turn me down - while stressing I met all the criteria.My Thai is of the cheap and cheerful variety - but I conned my way through the test.

If I’m honest I think there was an unwritten test of whether they liked the cut of your jib or not.If there was a points system I was entirely unaware of it.


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I applied for my PR in 2002  and got it in 2004. I have no recollection of there being a requirement for salary. At that time I was an university lecturer at Ubon Ratchathani University and my salary was about 33,000 baht/month. I had a Thai wife and a child.  I just presented all my documents which included tax returns, contracts with the university, work permits etc and everything proceeded from there. 

[jayboy]

23 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

I applied for my PR in 2002  and got it in 2004. I have no recollection of there being a requirement for salary. At that time I was an university lecturer at Ubon Ratchathani University and my salary was about 33,000 baht/month. I had a Thai wife and a child.  I just presented all my documents which included tax returns, contracts with the university, work permits etc and everything proceeded from there. 

That kind of confirms my (probably half baked theory).You seemed like an ideal candidate, your papers were in order and I'm assuming they liked the cut of your jib.In that context salary wasn't that important.

[KevT]

34 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

I applied for my PR in 2002  and got it in 2004

 

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

That kind of confirms my (probably half baked theory).You seemed like an ideal candidate, your papers were in order and I'm assuming they liked the cut of your jib.In that context salary wasn't that important.

Is 2 years after application still relevant in 2018, or it's shorter/longer if you seem like a good candidate?

[jayboy]

2 minutes ago, KevT said:

 

Is 2 years after application still relevant in 2018, or it's shorter/longer if you seem like a good candidate?

My impression is that 2 years, maybe a bit less, would be about average all things being equal but I don't really have the necessary knowledge of say the last 15 years.The position is distorted by the political ups and downs at the Ministry of Interior.Arkady would advise with much more authority than me.

[Mattd]

1 hour ago, blackcab said:

100k in yearly income tax is about 98k salary a month, claiming only the standard 100k allowance.

Using the progressive rate, to pay 100,000 THB per year in income tax, based on the previous (prior to 2017) allowances, and if claiming as single, with no children or insurances, you would have to earn 85,500 THB per month, which would attract PIT of 100,400 THB per year.

Personal allowance - 30,000 THB

Expense - 60,000 THB 

Social Security (full year) - 9,000 THB

Total deductions - 99,000 THB

Gross Salary - 1,026,000 THB

Taxable Salary - 927,000 THB

Income range	Tax Rate	Tax (baht)
150,000.00	0%	-
150,000.00	5%	7,500.00
200,000.00	10%	20,000.00
250,000.00	15%	37,500.00
177,000.00	20%	35,400.00
-	25%	-
-	30%	-
-	35%	-
927,000.00	Total tax	100,400.00

Edited January 24, 2018 by Mattd

[orientalist]

Has anyone managed to register PromptPay with their Citizen's ID? Kasikorn's system wouldn't let me, and I suspect none of the banks will accept it from foreigners.

[asiaexpat]

1 hour ago, orientalist said:

Has anyone managed to register PromptPay with their Citizen's ID? Kasikorn's system wouldn't let me, and I suspect none of the banks will accept it from foreigners.

I tried KBank and Bangkok Bank without success. Both stated that the PropmtPay system will only allow Thai citizen id numbers.

[orientalist]

I just registered with my ID this morning using Thanachart's mobile app. No problem at all. As soon as I selected "national ID" my ID (which Thanachart already had in connection with fixed deposit accounts) popped up automatically. There was a scary "Consent request to pay" option, which I left OFF. Maybe that is to allow something like direct debit of Prakan Sangkom payments, but better safe than sorry.

 

I tried sending a 100 baht to this new PromptPay account half an hour later and it went through just fine.

 

I suspect banks that don't allow this just can't be bothered deviating from their default procedures. Or perhaps your Thai ID must be on file with them first, as a Thai ID would be for all Thais with a bank account. I don't think Kasikorn has my Thai ID as it's an old account. On the other hand, they did tell me foreigners couldn't use a Thai ID.

Edited January 27, 2018 by orientalist