Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[up-country_sinclair]

The scary truth is the Jew haters are feeling a lot safer in "polite" society now. This is like a new Golden Age for them and yet another reminder to global Jews why Israel was and IS needed in the first place. Let's not forget while it is legit to charge Israel with overuse of force against Hamas in Gaza, what Hamas represents -- a force dedicated to take over all of Israel and NOT to live in peace there with the millions of Jews there.

This thread is about the Gaza school strike.

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been removed along with replies. More should be removed, but I am hoping that members will stay on the topic, which is about the Gaza school strike.

Edited August 8, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[simple1]

The tragedy of Naziism is not that genocide can occur , but that in the face of genocide decent people do nothing. This is the choice that faces the israeli public in 2014, same as the Germans were faced with in the 1930's.

This type of comment is asinine as are other similar posts. Sadly the Palestinians are suffering greatly from the Israeli response to the actions of the Islamic extremists, but they are not facing a genocidal regeme.

[Steely Dan]

Hmmm, no Gaza news as lead BBC headline today, instead they lead with ISIS taking over a Christian town and the UN condemning it, incidentally there are more refugees caused by ISIS than there are in Gaza.

But why no Gaza until you go down to minor news items? Perhaps it's due to Hamas refusing to extend the ceasefire unless they get a deep sea port and threatening to cause thousands of deaths with their new generation of rockets, now none of that is news is it, until Israel retaliates that is.

Maybe because BBC News covers world news rather than just the bits you're interested in? If you want full coverage of the Gaza problem I'm sure that DEBKA and Pamela Geller will oblige you

I don't know where he is looking, but on the BBC news home page at the time of writing Gaza is the second item after Iraq!

Israel strikes Gaza amid rocket fire

Israel says it has resumed air strikes in Gaza after Palestinian militants fired rockets following the end of a three-day ceasefire

BTW, Steely Dan, what about the approx. 5 million Palestinian refugees living not only in Gaza and the West Bank, but in neighbouring countries?

Unfortunately for them, much of the rest of the world have also forgotten them or simply don't care.

Which applies to you?

UNRWA is the agency dealing exclusively with Palestinian refugees, all other refugees worldwide are dealt with by the UNHCR. Whilst the UNHCR seems to function in resettling refugees the UNRWA has presided in the original 750,000 refugees being stuck in camps for generations in which time their numbers swelled to five million. The refusal of the Countries surrounding Israel to settle any refugees is largely a political one, as was the huge birthrate advocated by Yasser Arafat to make a Jewish homeland impossible if a right of return for these refugees applied. Aside from the cost of providing for these refugees they have been allowed to increase in number far beyond the economically sustainable level for the land. Incidentally Israel settled around 900,000 refugees without the help of any UN agency.

I do take your point though that nobody wants the Palestinian refugees, but they are Arabs with surnames originating in Egypt, Syria and Jordan and that's where they should go. As for the right of return, does that concept apply to South Sudanese, Bosnians or indeed any other group displaced by war or persecution. The reality is refugees should be settled wherever they can be as quickly as they can be without UN funded agencies playing politics.

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Edited August 9, 2014 by Steely Dan

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[CBR250]

No Jew hating posts here. Oh no!

So many Judeophobes coming out from under their rocks these days that rocks are starting to feel lonely ...

JIngthing, the inability to distinguish between anti-semitism and pro-humanity is a standard tactic of hasbara - the Israeli propaganda machine. To try to divert this topic from the cause of the deaths of the innocents in a school in Gaza to the old victim ploy of anti-Jew indicates you are indeed a willing tool of the sociopathic government of Israel.

[Jingthing]

No Jew hating posts here. Oh no!

So many Judeophobes coming out from under their rocks these days that rocks are starting to feel lonely ...

JIngthing, the inability to distinguish between anti-semitism and pro-humanity is a standard tactic of hasbara - the Israeli propaganda machine. To try to divert this topic from the cause of the deaths of the innocents in a school in Gaza to the old victim ploy of anti-Jew indicates you are indeed a willing tool of the sociopathic government of Israel.

I think it is very easy to tell the difference and I am entirely capable of telling the difference. The Israel demonizers play this constant game making up this lie that anyone is saying that ALL criticisms of Israeli policy are Judeophobia. But nobody is. I was responding to the "jewwatch" post. There have been many others, equally hate filled and disgusting in recent weeks ... they think it is OK now to post such filth and I am saying, no it is not OK even if you disapprove of Israeli actions in Gaza, that is NO excuse! Hopefully, anybody can tell that was not pro humanity but rather reflective of the exact opposite. Which brings us to Hamas .. which the Israel demonizers would be wise to clearly dissociate themselves from at every opportunity ... as they are a death cult dedicated to genocide of the Jews. I also suggest the critics of Israeli policy (WHICH INCLUDES ME) make it clear they favor the right of Jews have to their own majority state of Israel or not, or that they are on the side of Hamas who would allow no such right to the Jews. Often the critics of Israel are very ambiguous in their rhetoric and it is easy to conclude they are more like Hamas cheerleaders, hoping that Israel is crushed and the dream of a Jewish state ended.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

You mean that Jingthing should not have pointed out a link to "Jew Watch" a hateful, anti-Semitic website? This kind of crap does not belong on the forum and Jingthing is doing the right thing by exposing it.

The IDF would not strike targets in civilian areas if Hamas was not embeding its terrorist infrastructure there. The IDF only intentionally attacks military targets. Unfortunately, Hamas purposely fires from populated civilian areas.

[CBR250]

Phil Sommerville sums up the reality of the argument about advanced warning to Gazans quite well in this cartoon:

Edited August 9, 2014 by CBR250

[dexterm]

Phil Sommerville sums up the reality of the argument about advanced warning to Gazans quite well in this cartoon:

CartoonWEAK 82 Gaza Bombing 2014 Low Res.jpg

I found your link under http://www.somervillecartoons.com/cartoonofweek.htm

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas declared war by firing thousand of rockets into Israel. What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Thorgal]

Hamas declared war by firing thousand of rockets into Israel. What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

Do you know the difference between precise bombing and random rocket launching ?

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[dexterm]

The IDF would not strike targets in civilian areas if Hamas was not embeding its terrorist infrastructure there. The IDF only intentionally attacks military targets. Unfortunately, Hamas purposely fires from populated civilian areas.

I think the only honest part of your post is IDF intentionally attacks.

Israel started the present round of violence so the man who pulls the trigger is responsible for the deaths of 429 innocent children so far...clearly Hamas operatives or affiliates..what's Regev's latest spin word?

It's like a mugger who attacks you, steals your wallet, beats you up, then accuses you of breaking your own ribs because you refuse to lie still while he's kicking you.

[cheeryble]

What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

What other country warns civilians to get out?

What other country targets such compact civilian areas?

(ps Whoever thought up the phones and leaflets idea is either a standout humanitarian or is so good at PR the Saatchi brothers have to salute him.

As the whole idea of collective punishment requires actual losses, and punishment and mayhem and peripheral damage makes it more effective I tend to the latter. But who knows someone might actually care. It certainly won't be Dep PM Avigdor Lieberman who offered to pay for the buses to take Palestinian prisoners to the lakes to drown them.

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Edited August 9, 2014 by cheeryble

[Ulysses G.]

What other country targets such compact civilian areas?

ANY country that has thousands of being rockets fired at them. No country on earth would allow it.

[Ulysses G.]

It's like a mugger who attacks you, steals your wallet, beats you up, then accuses you of breaking your own ribs because you refuse to lie still while he's kicking you.

Sounds like Hamas, only they always end up getting their butts kicked.

[coma]

Hamas declared war by firing thousand of rockets into Israel. What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

Do you know the difference between precise bombing and random rocket launching ?

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No. He doesn't.

[dexterm]

Hamas declared war by firing thousand of rockets into Israel. What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

The Israeli apologists would love to sweep under the carpet the actual pretext under which the present Gaza round of violence began. They love the fog of war.

By your own link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014 [please check it for yourselves folks] (and implied admission because you never denied it) Hamas showed remarkable restraint when less than one rocket a week fell in the 6 weeks prior to 11 June, even though in that same period the IDF had conducted 5 targeted assassinations and injured several others including children. Much better to have used that lull for tentative peace negotiations, but...

In response to Hamas’s restraint, on 12 June Israel launched Operation Brothers Keeper rounding up 100s of Hamas members on the West Bank, on the pretext that Hamas affiliates had kidnapped the teens, even though no evidence has ever been produced that orders came from Hamas leadership.

Collective punishment followed, killing 1893 Gazans, 1380 of whom civilians, and 429 innocent children (clearly Hamas affiliates)...so far.

At first I thought Netanyahu might have had some clever ulterior motive with his blatant provocation of a conflict, trying to break up the new Hamas/PA rapprochement perhaps. Seems I was wrong. It was after all simply a callous vote winner. He may have miscalculated though. It has drawn PA/Hamas closer together, been a global PR disaster, and Netanyahu has dug a deeper hole for Israel to fall into..

“Talk of reoccupation ended last week after army officers gave a sobering presentation to the security cabinet. Taking over Gaza and clearing it would take five years, and kill hundreds of Israeli soldiers and thousands of Palestinian civilians”

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/israel-hamas-claim-victory-as-truce-ends-2014887350474962.html

Edited August 9, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas declared war by firing thousand of rockets into Israel. What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

The Israeli apologists would love to sweep under the carpet the actual pretext under which the present Gaza round of violence began. They love the fog of war.

The usual dishonesty from you. That is not "my link", although I have used it before, and it does not make the wild claims that you are making. In fact - as usual - you are making up a bunch of nonsense and pretending to have a link that supports it.

You have been caught posting falsehood after falsehood and even people on your own team have pointed out your fallacious claims. You have been exposed. Why do you just keep on doing it?

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[David48]

Rather then trying to decide who is 'right' and who is 'wrong' ...

What, Who or/and How do you think there will be an exit to the current situation?

Eventually, there will be an ending or a cessation of hostilities.

How do you think that will happen?

.

[Ulysses G.]

What, Who or/and How do you think there will be an exit to the current situation?

There is only one real solution. The Palestinian Arabs have to sign one of the many peace treaties that Israel/the Jews have offered or agreed to over and over again for the last 100 years, which the Palestinians have always refused.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[David48]

What, Who or/and How do you think there will be an exit to the current situation?

There is only one real solution. The Palestinian Arabs have to sign one of the many peace treaties that Israel/the Jews have offered or agreed to over and over again for the last 100 years, which the Palestinians have always refused.

So, you think the solution will come internally ... from one of the two aggrieved sides ... i.e. Israel and Palestine.

Fair comment and I'm not disagreeing with you.

But I find it difficult to see that as a solution if that has been tried many times.

Edited August 9, 2014 by David48

[dexterm]

Hamas declared war by firing thousand of rockets into Israel. What other country warns civilians to get out at all?

The Israeli apologists would love to sweep under the carpet the actual pretext under which the present Gaza round of violence began. They love the fog of war.

The usual dishonesty from you. That is not "my link", although I have used it before, and it does not make the wild claims that you are making. In fact - as usual - you are making up a bunch of nonsense and pretending to have a link that supports it.

You have been caught posting falsehood after falsehood and even people on your own team have pointed out your fallacious claims. You have been exposed. Why do you just keep on doing it?

I suggest members simply read the links. Examine the facts presented, do the math, and judge for yourselves.

In the 6 weeks prior to Operation Brothers Keeper 5 rockets fell harmlessly...that’s less than one per week!

And 3 mortar rounds fired at a military target IDF forces on the Gaza border (see below what provocations the IDF had been up to during this same period)

Here’s the real timeline of events. When you read what actually happened prior to Netanyahu launching his murderous provocation, you can see that Hamas had in fact shown considerable restraint...5 harmless rockets in response to the IDF’s 5 assassinations plus several injuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

May 1 A rocket hit an open area in Eshkol. No one were hurt, no damage was reported.

May 21 Several [3] mortar rounds were fired at IDF forces on the Gaza border. No injuries, damages in attack.

May 23 A rocket exploded in open field in Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council. No reports of damages or injuries.

June 1 A rocket was fired early Sunday morning at the Eshkol region. The rocket landed in a field and no casualties were reported.

June 11 A rocket fired from Gaza narrowly missed a main artery in southern Israel as it landed in a nearby dirt field without causing any injuries.

While in that same period here’s what the IDF had been up to...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

May 15 In Beitunia in cold blood 2 students shot dead one in the back, and a 3^rd injured after a demonstration. “The Nakba Day shooting sums up the crime of occupation, which has turned the IDF from the people’s army into a hothouse of violence.The report in Haaretz that a non-combat soldier attached to the Border Police force fired, contrary to regulations, at Palestinian protesters during the riots in Beitunia – apparently because of “boredom” http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.596219

May 24 The Military Police has opened investigations into the circumstances of the deaths of at least 18 Palestinians in the West Bank in the last two years, but has completed only three of these probes. In only one case was an Israeli soldier charged and convicted.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.592588

June 3 A 22 year old Palestinian fisherman was shot and injured by Israeli military boats in the sea off the coast of the northern Gaza Strip

http://www.gazaark.org/2014/06/03/israeli-forces-shoot-injure-palestinian-fisherman-off-gaza-coast/

June 8 A Palestinian fisherman Imad Shukri Salem, 52, died from Israeli gunshot wounds sustained on May 25^th.

http://www.gazaark.org/2014/06/09/gaza-fisherman-shot-by-israeli-forces-dies-of-wounds/

June 11 Air strike used to assassinate a Palestinian militant Mohammed Awwar while riding on a motorcycle in Gaza also killing his 7 year old nephew and injuring 3 civilians including a child

June 12 Israeli teens kidnapped and murdered.

June 12 Operation Brothers Keeper launched. Over the next 11 days Israel arrested over 350 Palestinians, many still in jail without charge, and killed 5 Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers#cite_note-20140617Algemeiner-7

Plus numerous other violations

http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/weekly-report-israeli-human-rights-violations-occupied-448

June 15 Netanyahu makes his infamous accusation without a shred of evidence of direct orders from Hamas leadership [still none today] "Hamas terrorists carried out Thursday's kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers. We know that for a fact. These teenagers were kidnapped and the kidnapping was carried out by Hamas members. Hamas denials do not change this fact" http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/PressRoom/2014/Pages/PM-Netanyahus-statement-regarding-the-kidnapping-of-Israeli-teenagers-by-Hamas-15-June-2014.aspx

[David48]

What I'm trying to do is to open the discussion ... I grow tired of the rock tossing from both sides.

India and Pakistan are neighbours ... different religions but have resolved a long standing truce.

Northern Ireland, after many decades of fighting with Ireland, have found an acceptable solution.

Can Palestine and Israel learn anything from these two examples?

[Thorgal]

What other country targets such compact civilian areas?

ANY country that has thousands of being rockets fired at them. No country on earth would allow it.

Israel sold more than 7 billion USD of weapons worldwide last year.

25 % of export is dedicated to weapons.

I'm not surprised they have domestic and international problems with their defence systems.

Do not compare the outdated war technology used by Hamas against the pioneer technology used by the IDF.

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Edited August 9, 2014 by Thorgal

[Ulysses G.]

What other country targets such compact civilian areas?

ANY country that has thousands of being rockets fired at them. No country on earth would allow it.

Israel sold more than 7 billion USD of weapons worldwide last year.

No what? Lots of countries sell weapons and they would not let thousands of rockets be fired at them either. No country on earth would allow it.

[simple1]

What I'm trying to do is to open the discussion ... I grow tired of the rock tossing from both sides.

India and Pakistan are neighbours ... different religions but have resolved a long standing truce.

Northern Ireland, after many decades of fighting with Ireland, have found an acceptable solution.

Can Palestine and Israel learn anything from these two examples?

Apparently not. The former head of the Australian Army has said Australia "needs to prepare for an increasingly savage, 100-year war against radical Islam"; by that he includes the rest of the Western world.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/well-fight-radical-islam-for-100-years-says-exarmy-head-peter-leahy/story-e6frg8yo-1227018630297

[David48]

I'm what you describe as a small 'L' Liberal.

That would translate as a small 'R' Republican ... though I am a fan of Obama.

My vote occasionally swings as not one side always gets it right.

I'm not a Jew, nor a Muslim ... though I did date an Iranian (Persian to be precise) for some time and she was a stunning lady (beauty, heart and mind).

How I saw this conflict play out ...

Originally, many, including me supported the Israel position.

No-one wants to see a barrage of rockets targeted at a Civilian population.

The World understood when Israel targeted the sites where the missiles were fired from.

If they incurred civilian deaths, it most likely meant that Hamas were firing 'from the suburbs', 'from the schools' that was accepted, up to a point as Hamas (and not Palestine) were seen as the aggressor.

But, these past 10 days ... the tide of Public Opinion has turned and Israel looks more like a bully.

I can understand the reason for doing what they do ... but the World sees this conflict now in a different light.

There is fault on both sides ... undoubtedly.

So, rather then throwing rocks at each other here on this thread ... is there any chance that we can look at solution to the conflict?

There is no moral right (and wrong) any more. Just hate.

Lets move forward, learn from the lessons of the past.

Let Israel start a truce. Let them tell the world that they will not transgress the boarder with their their troops or their rockets.

Let Israel with the military advantage show the courage to say ... ENOUGH !

Let the Palestines in the Gaza Strip see that Hamas is not the answer to their woes.

Let the people realise that it is Hamas who the Israelis genuinely target.

God pray that we have peace by Christmas, because I fear it may take this long.

.

[7by7]

Rather then trying to decide who is 'right' and who is 'wrong' ...

What, Who or/and How do you think there will be an exit to the current situation?

Eventually, there will be an ending or a cessation of hostilities.

How do you think that will happen?

.

Unfortunately, it will not end until both sides agree to sit down with each other without any pre conditions.

The analogy of the situation in Northern Ireland has been used before, and whilst not identical there are enough similarities for that to be an example.

The British government refused to negotiate with terrorists.

The IRA refused to accept that Northern Ireland existed as a part of the UK, instead insisting that it was an occupied part of the Republic and they would fight on until the two parts of the island of Ireland were untied into one, independent country. Something demanded at the time by the constitution of the Republic.

However, the parties did eventually agree to talk with each other without any pre conditions and as a result there has, apart from a few flare ups, been peace in the Province for 20 years.

If Hamas and the Israeli government will likewise both agree to talks without any preconditions then there will be hope.

Until they do, there is no hope.

I believe it is up to Israel to take the first step.

The latest ceasefire broke down when someone, probably Hamas, fired some rockets into Israel from Gaza. Israel vastly overreacted in their usual way; end of ceasefire.

Israel should have taken the moral high ground by saying that these rockets had been fired, but they would not retaliate and hold to the cease fire.

That may have brought Hamas to the negotiating table; it certainly would have helped Israel's reputation in the eyes of the rest of the world.

They did similar when Saddam was firing missiles at them during the first Gulf war; why can't they do so now?

[midas]

Rather then trying to decide who is 'right' and who is 'wrong' ...

What, Who or/and How do you think there will be an exit to the current situation?

Eventually, there will be an ending or a cessation of hostilities.

How do you think that will happen?

.

Unfortunately, it will not end until both sides agree to sit down with each other without any pre conditions.

The analogy of the situation in Northern Ireland has been used before, and whilst not identical there are enough similarities for that to be an example.

The British government refused to negotiate with terrorists.

The IRA refused to accept that Northern Ireland existed as a part of the UK, instead insisting that it was an occupied part of the Republic and they would fight on until the two parts of the island of Ireland were untied into one, independent country. Something demanded at the time by the constitution of the Republic.

However, the parties did eventually agree to talk with each other without any pre conditions and as a result there has, apart from a few flare ups, been peace in the Province for 20 years.

If Hamas and the Israeli government will likewise both agree to talks without any preconditions then there will be hope.

Until they do, there is no hope.

I believe it is up to Israel to take the first step.

The latest ceasefire broke down when someone, probably Hamas, fired some rockets into Israel from Gaza. Israel vastly overreacted in their usual way; end of ceasefire.

Israel should have taken the moral high ground by saying that these rockets had been fired, but they would not retaliate and hold to the cease fire.

That may have brought Hamas to the negotiating table; it certainly would have helped Israel's reputation in the eyes of the rest of the world.

They did similar when Saddam was firing missiles at them during the first Gulf war; why can't they do so now?

For the benefit of all those who repeatedly refer to Hamas only in terms of it being a terrorist organisation, Sinn Féin was also referred to as a terrorist organisation. Yet people acknowledged Sinn Féin simultaneously undertook a humanitarian role as Hamas also does now. I think this is another way in which both organisations have similarities and the way in which the negotiations were approached and eventually succeeded with Sinn Féin could be tried with regards to Hamas if people had the will to do so.

Edited August 9, 2014 by midas

[Jingthing]

Sure, talks can start when they stop shooting rockets and better yet agree to recognize Israel and disarm. Why should they disarm and not Israel? Let me check ... active war and they LOST. Of course Hamas acts like they won because they did win an international propaganda campaign but talking about arms here. If Israel caves on Hamas demands right away they are rewarding terrorism ... a bad lesson to all their enemies. Trust does not exist. Israel would be crazy to trust a power dedicated to doing a "RIver to the Sea" on them. Building trust is of course possible over many many years ... but it would take bold leadership on both sides for there to be any hope ... so face it folks, right now there is no such leadership so almost no hope. That's just realness. Yes I am blaming both sides. I always have, don't be shocked.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Jingthing