The new rules for an extension of stay for teachers and such

[mikecat]

OP:

For teaching at non-formal schools, such as language schools, nothing has changed and teachers there still don't need a teaching license or a degree.

One does not need a degree to get a Work Permit to be employed as an English Teacher at a Language School???

Indeed, one does not need a degree to get a work permit.

As an English Teacher at a language school?

For example ECC, Siam Computer and all those other franchises?

What sets them aside as 'non-formal' schools and is it generally accepted by officers of the Dept. of Labour and Dept. of Immigration that English Teachers hired as such do not need a degree to get a Work Permit as an English Teacher?

I was under the impression that Immigration and Labour wants to see original degrees for all teachers they are processing, language schools included.

If you want me to start a thread on it and answer there than just say.

There is a lot of confusion regarding this and it seems that in the past it has varied depending what province you are applying in, where the school is i.e out in the sticks, if its private or Government. In general neither the Labor office or immigration would worry about a degree as long as you had a waver from the teachers council and a TEFL certificate. No waver no work permit and no extension. Up until recently the teachers council has given wavers for teachers without a degree who have a reasonable education, TEFL and good work history, and who are working in small government schools or private schools particularly out in the sticks. This has changed now and they are demanding degrees for all teachers and refusing to give licences or wavers. meaning no work permit or extension for quite a few teachers, some schools have been decimated. I have heard around the place that volunteers in Government schools are required to get a waver and will soon need to get a degree. I stress that this currently just a rumour. Have also heard that the Teachers Council are requiring a BA in education but this hasnt got of the ground either yet.

[Deacon Bell]

^ All a bit confusing to be honest.

2 of my friends work in language schools in BKK without degrees and they both said that they can't get WP's because of it.

Reading on here that they can is surprising. What's the waiver about? I thought that they would submit their TEFL cert and degree to the Labour Office, or no degree if at a language school as stated on here, they give them a WP, with that they then get an extension at immigration.

Wrong?

Edited August 11, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[duanebigsby]

^ All a bit confusing to be honest.

2 of my friends work in language schools in BKK without degrees and they both said that they can't get WP's because of it.

Reading on here that they can is surprising. What's the waiver about? I thought that they would submit their TEFL cert and degree to the Labour Office, or no degree if at a language school as stated on here, they give them a WP, with that they then get an extension at immigration.

Wrong?

If you have a Bachelor of Education you can get a teacher's license. If you have a teacher's license from your home country, you can get a Thai teaching license.

If you have a degree NOT in education you must satisfy some TCT course and tests. In the meantime, you can legally work on waivers. These were the old rules and everyone is waiting to see the changes.

[Deacon Bell]

^ And what about the lads with No degree whatsoever?

It's written above that they don't need them to get a WP when working at a language school.

Do they need to get a waiver thing as well? Or can just get a WP with a TEFL cert and nothing else?

Edited August 11, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[duanebigsby]

^ And what about the lads with No degree whatsoever?

It's written above that they don't need them to get a WP when working at a language school.

Do they need to get a waiver thing as well? Or can just get a WP with a TEFL cert and nothing else?

That I do not know. I'm not sure at all about a language school. I imagine there will be new rules and clarification of old ones coming out.

[ThaiRich]

I am simply trying to clarify the new rules posted a few days ago..

I decided to delete my comment.

Edited August 11, 2014 by ThaiRich

[Hawkman]

If a language school tries to employ a teacher without a degree, the work permit is refused, so not sure if the rules are being followed by certain agencies.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Deacon Bell]

If a language school tries to employ a teacher without a degree, the work permit is refused, so not sure if the rules are being followed by certain agencies.

Refused by who?

The labour office refuses to grant a work permit even though a degree is not a requirement?

[sirfin]

So what does this mean for the person that wants to come here to retire and teach but has no degree. I am assuming that there will still be schools i n need that will hire them.

May not be i n BKK but some of the smaller villages or am I way off.

How can you come here to retire and work at the same time ?

What s wrong with you People.... He said come here to retire.. Not come here on a retirement Visa... Im in Thailand retired from every F....n thing in my own Country. But that doesn't mean I am here on a Retirement Visa....

Mate, Retire, Move, Enjoy Thailand and if you score a Job teaching... Sweet, just make sure you have the best visa to suit and don't tell anybody on here.as its full of people freaking out!!!!!

[thesetat2013]

OP!

I have a friend that worked legally with licenses from TCT for 4 years already. Now this year they denied his waiver stating his Degree was insufficient or unaccredited.So he could not get the supported documents from TCT to obtain a work permit.

He works at a Private Catholic School right now but is leaving this week to Cambodia to find a job legally.

Are you saying here that now his school could get him a work permit without the TCT waiver if they hire him as an assistant teacher/librarian etc...?

He already has a Non O visa. He just doesn't want to work illegally.

(extensions of stay for teachers:

For teachers themselves nothing will change. The new rules even make it easier to change schools as instead of the WP itself you can also show the wp3 form indicating that you have applied for a new WP with a new school.)

Can my friend simply bring his expired work permit from a different school to the work permit office and have it changed to the school he is working at now without obtaining a new waiver?

How can he continue working at his job here legally?

I know he has his life here an wants to stay but needs a job/

Edited August 11, 2014 by thesetat2013

[joshstiles]

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that wants to come here to retire and teach

That doesn't work. You cannot be retired and working in Thailand, (not even volunteer work). You would need a visa extension for reasons of marriage or business or...

NOT TRUE - IF you are retired you can get a one year work permit for working purposes....after the one year, your visa must be changed and you also apply for a new work permit.

[hhgz]

Is it just me, or does it seem that people who are allegedly involved with teaching English are having an especially difficult time understanding English?

[Mario2008]

There are different kind of schools and not all school types require that you have a teaching license or waiver. Language/tutoring schools are schools that do not fall under the requirement to have a teaching license. That has always been the case.

A degree is legally not required either for a work permit, but some labour offices will require it anyway. That might be a misunderstanding about the regulations on the part of that labour office or simply a case of enforcing their own rules.

Who needs a teaching license is regulated in the Teachers and Educational Personnel Act of 2003.

The definitions are given in section 4.

Ministry” means the Ministry of Education.

“Profession” means educational profession with the primary duty relating to the teaching and learning process, and promotion of learning among

learners through various methods, including responsibility for the administration of public and private Educational Institutions at early child, basic and higher education

levels below a degree level; and education administration outside Educational Institutions at the educational district level; as well as education support; provision of

services or undertaking of activities in relation to the teaching and learning process, supervision and education administration in various Educational Agencies.

“Professional Educators” means Teachers, Educational Institution Administrators, Education Administrators and Other Educational Personnel who are

granted Licenses to practice the Profession under this Act.

“Teachers” means such persons whose primary Profession relates to the teaching and learning process, and promotion of learning among learners through

various methods in public and private Educational Institutions at early child, basic and higher education levels below a degree level.

“Educational Institution Administrators” means such persons who act in the capacity of administrators of Educational Institutions in educational districts, and

other public and private Educational Institutions at early child, basic and higher education levels below a degree level.

“Education Administrators” means such persons who act in the capacity of administrators outside Educational Institutions at the educational district level.

“Other Educational Personnel” means such persons who perform the duties to support education, provide services or undertake activities in relation to the teaching

and learning process, supervision and education administration in Educational Agencies, and whose educational qualifications must meet the requirements set forth

by such Educational Agencies.

“Educational Agencies” means such other Educational Institutions or agencies having the duty to supervise, monitor, support, promote and provide services relating

to the administration of public and private basic and higher education levels below a degree level.

Who needs a license is regulated in section 43.

Section 43

The Profession of Teachers, Educational Institution Administrators and Education Administrators shall be a licensed Profession under this

Act. Other licensed Professions shall be as stipulated in ministerial regulations.

No one shall practice a licensed Profession without a License under this Act,

except in any of the following cases:

(1) Those occasionally providing knowledge to learners in any Educational Institution as guest educational lecturers;

(2) Those whose primary Profession does not relate to the teaching and learning process, but has the occasional duty to teach;

(3) Students, trainees or those with a practical training license apprenticing or training under the supervision of Professional Educators, subject to the criteria,

procedures and conditions set forth by the Teachers Council of Thailand Board;

(4) Those arbitrarily offering educational courses;

(5) Those teaching in any learning center under the law governing national education or learning establishments arbitrarily operated by nonformal educational

agencies, individuals, families, communities, community organizations, local administrative organizations, private organizations, Professional organizations,

religious institutions, business establishments, hospitals, medical institutions, charitable shelters and other social institutions;

(6) Public and private instructors, Educational Institution Administrators and Education Administrators at the higher education level;

(7) Education Administrators of a level higher than educational districts;

(8) Other persons as designated by the Teachers Council of Thailand Board.

[Deacon Bell]

A degree is legally not required either for a work permit, but some labour offices will require it anyway. That might be a misunderstanding about the regulations on the part of that labour office or simply a case of enforcing their own rules.

Perhaps Thai Visa could use their power and connections to discuss this with their high up Thai connections.

Both foreigners and Thais must be losing out because of it.

[draftvader]

I have looked through this for an understanding of the requirements for teachers. My wife is a teacher at an International Kindergarten (5 years at this school). She has a degree but no formal teaching qualification. To date she has done the Thai teaching licence course and that has sufficed. This year, at immigration, they noted this and stated that she can only work on the waiver from the teacher's council for this year and will need QTS from 2015 onwards. Can anybody let me know what the correct position on this is as this information was imparted by Nonthaburi immigration who might well be as confused as the rest of us? It is SO nearly academic as she will be able to take her QTS here, in Thailand, next year with the blessing, and support, of her school director but it would be good to know the actual correct version of events just in case she can't make the application deadline for any reason.

Sorry if I have missed this on another thread, I have tried searching but couldn't find clarification. Many thanks in advance.

[Mario2008]

The rules say a license or a waiver, either would be sufficient for an extension.

I believe some immigration offices think you can only get 2 waivers total, which maybe behind the comment. In practice people are able to get a third waiver.

[notbkk]

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OP:

For teaching at non-formal schools, such as language schools, nothing has changed and teachers there still don't need a teaching license or a degree.

One does not need a degree to get a Work Permit to be employed as an English Teacher at a Language School???

alt=huh.png>

Indeed, one does not need a degree to get a work permit.

I beg to differ: at my language school they insist that one needs a degree for a WP. It is not the school that insists, it is a government regulation, they say. Everybody knows that, surely? Or are they wrong...

[Deacon Bell]

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OP:

For teaching at non-formal schools, such as language schools, nothing has changed and teachers there still don't need a teaching license or a degree.

One does not need a degree to get a Work Permit to be employed as an English Teacher at a Language School???

alt=huh.png>

Indeed, one does not need a degree to get a work permit.

I beg to differ: at my language school they insist that one needs a degree for a WP. It is not the school that insists, it is a government regulation, they say. Everybody knows that, surely? Or are they wrong...

That is the question.

[Mario2008]

Your local labour office might require it, the law does not.

[Deacon Bell]

Your local labour office might require it, the law does not.

Are labour offices allowed to refuse people that meet all the legal requirements, as set out bu the Thai labour law?

Perhaps Thai Visa should put some of their weight behind the issue and start asking questions during their meetings with the Thai higher ups.

For example, why are people who want to help teach Thais and meet all the legal requirements to do so as set out in Labor Law x,y and z, being refused the right to do so by certain labor offices?

[Mario2008]

No, but they can make an assessment if the person is right for the job. You have to show that you are better for the job than a Thai, without a (relevant) degree or work experience that is harder to do. The labour office has leeway.

[Deacon Bell]

No, but they can make an assessment if the person is right for the job. You have to show that you are better for the job than a Thai, without a (relevant) degree or work experience that is harder to do. The labour office has leeway.

A native English speaker with a TEFL qualification has to prove that they are better than a Thai at teaching English in a Language School? And gets refused to do so even though they have all the correct qualifications and requirements as set by the labour law?

Something sounds amiss here....

Do you know for a fact that officers are refusing permits to fully qualified applicants (according to the labour law) because "they have to show that they are better for the job than a Thai" or is it speculation of some sort.

Thai Visa should contact the Dept. of Labour and get a reason as to why those who are fully qualified, and meet all the requirements as set out in the Labour Law are being refused. Especially as they are so beneficial to, and wanted by, Thais.

[Mario2008]

What I am making clear is that a labour official has leeway in his decisions. A degree might not be required by law, but he can require it on other grounds.

Thaivisa is a forum, not an action group. So people will have to contact the labour office themselves.

[willyumiii]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

The way I understand the law, the school is required to get the needed work permit for it's foreign employees.

BUT, if the employee does not have a work permit, it is the employee who is hung out to dry, not the school who did not provide the work permit.

Just what is the incentive for the schools to get the work permit if they are not held responsible for not obtaining it?

[Mario2008]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

The way I understand the law, the school is required to get the needed work permit for it's foreign employees.

BUT, if the employee does not have a work permit, it is the employee who is hung out to dry, not the school who did not provide the work permit.

Just what is the incentive for the schools to get the work permit if they are not held responsible for not obtaining it?

Both the employee and the employer can be fined if an employee doesn't have a work permit.

[ajack]

Is it possible to obtain a WP without a degree, if one works for a teaching agency?

The job does not include teaching, it is liaising with foreign teachers, posting jobs, reading emails and resumes, giving advise, helping with enquiries and the like. The job does not require visiting schools.

[ubonjoe]

Is it possible to obtain a WP without a degree, if one works for a teaching agency?

The job does not include teaching, it is liaising with foreign teachers, posting jobs, reading emails and resumes, giving advise, helping with enquiries and the like. The job does not require visiting schools.

Since it is an agency you could probably get the work permit but it would be on the basis of working for a company not teaching.

Your extension would also be done for working at a company under clause 2.1 of the police order and would require a minimum salary be paid.

[Issangeorge]

that wants to come here to retire and teach

That doesn't work. You cannot be retired and working in Thailand, (not even volunteer work). You would need a visa extension for reasons of marriage or business or...

That is simply not true, I had 4 work permits from 3 different provinces while I was here on an extension of stay due to retirement. My first extension of stay I applied for on basses of marriage, when I got my passport back it was stamped retirement, I was all upset and explained to the immigration officer that I wanted to get a job teaching school, she said no problem. I was sceptical, but it turned out to be no problem. I think people confuse a retirement visa (Non-Immigrant a), with an extension due to retirement, they are two different things. Edited August 26, 2014 by Issangeorge

[notbkk]

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that wants to come here to retire and teach

That doesn't work. You cannot be retired and working in Thailand, (not even volunteer work). You would need a visa extension for reasons of marriage or business or...

That is simply not true, I had 4 work permits from 3 different provinces while I was hear on a extension of stay due to retirement. My first extension of stay I applied for one basses on marriage, when I got my passport back it was stamped retirement, I was all upset and explained to the immigration officer that I wanted to get a job teaching school, she said no problem. I was sceptical, but it turned out to be no problem. I think people confuse a retirement visa (Non-Immigrant a), with an extension due to retirement, they are two different things.

Agree...can be done, cause that's which situation I've been in for the last few years.

[Issangeorge]

OP:

For teaching at non-formal schools, such as language schools, nothing has changed and teachers there still don't need a teaching license or a degree.

One does not need a degree to get a Work Permit to be employed as an English Teacher at a Language School???

alt=huh.png>

Indeed, one does not need a degree to get a work permit.

I beg to differ: at my language school they insist that one needs a degree for a WP. It is not the school that insists, it is a government regulation, they say. Everybody knows that, surely? Or are they wrong...

Remember for every work permit, the language school needs 4 Thai employees, so most language schools can't get their teachers a wp because they don't have enough Thai employees, but they tell the teacher it's because they don't have a degree, I wonder what they tell the teachers with degrees?

That is the question.