Protecting the petrodollar: America gears up for a long war

[Publicus]

Russia could ditch US dollar in 2-3 years – head of Russia's #2 bank

http://rt.com/business/191804-russia-ditch-dollar-2-years/

And here I'd thought I was reading a news story from 2008.

My god, the Russians did say the exact thing in 2008.

I'm still waiting for the people here who want to see China, Russia, Brazil, India and South Africa overturn the existing international order so they could rule the world to explain how and why dictatorship and contempt of democracy, market economics, liberalism, human rights, rule of law is so appealing.

Asiantravel, that means you.

Not only you Asiantravel, but you too.

You.

" contempt of democracy, market economics, liberalism, human rights, rule of law is so appealing "

well i hope you dont consider US to represent those values

The US is an oligarchy, study concludes Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters

The US government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country's citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern Universities has concluded.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html

The United States of America is a country and society in process, in progress. It had a civil war, it had slavery, women couldn't vote or own property.....the list of wrongs rooted in the deep history of its European Old World origins and development gets very long.

These inequities and inequalities and the many others inherited from the Old World have been reversed. The list is indeed very long of the accomplishments of American society, culture, civilization.

And so the beat of self-improvement goes on.

If you think the United States is hopeless, say so. If you and others of your ilk believe the United States is evil so it must be destroyed, speak out directly.

After all, the corrupt Chinese Communist Party and its wholly owned subsidiary dictatorship, the People's Republic of China are so much better, right?

Russia and its culture of Tsarism is so much better, isn't it.

Brazil and is the center of the modern and future world, isn't it.

The disorganized chaos of India is the model for all the world, isn't it.

South Africa....ah, yes, South Africa......

.....and your 80 follower countries of the Brics, they are so great too. Care to name the 80 countries you also place your faith in as the future of human society and civilization?????

The bottom line here is that 21st century fascists are out of place and out of time. Contemporary fascists and fascism cannot complain about the fact democracies also have challenges, that democracies effectively and predictable work out their problems, and we do it over time, one step at a time, continually. And this is so because fascists and fascism have demonstrated their inherent nature of being irreversibly and incorrigibly evil.

[Matej]

There are two types of people who admire and praise dictatorships, or if you want, a negative assertion(it's the same), people who disdain liberal democracy and human rights.

First type, people who know nothing about history, the world is too complex for them so they trust every nonsense(it may be quite extensive) they hear or read somewhere.

Also conspiracy theories belong here. For example ask 9/11 conspirator something about Gulf War or Soviet War in Afghanistan. There will be no answer.

Second type, criminals, hypocrites, social engineers who know how to solve every problem, fools, profiteers and naive and lazy ordinary people who need a leader to take care of them(freedom = hard labor)

Cicero was right. Life and dignity of the human can be fulfilled only in free and civil society.

[lovetotravel]

" contempt of democracy, market economics, liberalism, human rights, rule of law is so appealing "

well i hope you dont consider US to represent those values

The US is an oligarchy, study concludes Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters

The US government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country's citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern Universities has concluded.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html

Name one country this doesn't apply to. It certainly applies to the BRICs, even more so than the US. Why are you so anti-American? It gets old.

[craigt3365]

And more off topic posts removed from view and a member warned.

[Pakboong]

Publicus, with all due respect,, you are arguing product versus process. I too believe the product is not achievable. I am arguing that the process can be very damaging to the 5 countries. Why do you stay lost on this. Nobody is saying it will be successful. It is simply causing the pot to get stirred as the start date approaches.

Your history lesson on the 5 countries is all correct, we are not talking history here. We are talking about what the reaction to the process will be. Putin will put off conflict and the shareholders of the IMf want to nip it in the bud before it even gets a chance. The symptoms of the two are what we are dealing with today.

You keep wanting to accuse me of claiming that BRICS will be a solution and I don't believe that to be true and I don't believe I have said that it will. In fact, early in the BRICS process I maintained that the US and EU should do a preemptive strike. I get paid in dollars, I do not want BRICS to be successful.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Pakboong

[Publicus]

Publicus, with all due respect,, you are arguing product versus process. I too believe the product is not achievable. I am arguing that the process can be very damaging to the 5 countries. Why do you stay lost on this. Nobody is saying it will be successful. It is simply causing the pot to get stirred as the start date approaches.

Your history lesson on the 5 countries is all correct, we are not talking history here. We are talking about what the reaction to the process will be. Putin will put off conflict and the shareholders of the IMf want to nip it in the bud before it even gets a chance. The symptoms of the two are what we are dealing with today.

You keep wanting to accuse me of claiming that BRICS will be a solution and I don't believe that to be true and I don't believe I have said that it will. In fact, early in the BRICS process I maintained that the US and EU should do a preemptive strike. I get paid in dollars, I do not want BRICS to be successful.

The United States of America is a country and society in process, in progress.

The first sentence of my post, which I cite in this post, presents process yet you wrongheadedly claim I am focused on product.

The fact is that process is determining because it leads to the product. Yet you post that I am arguing product. Then you pose your own nonsensical circular question, "Why do you stay lost on this?"

Pull your head out.

My objection to dictatorship is that the process inherent to it is wrong which means the product, as you call it, is necessarily wrong -- and nefarious.

Tsarism is not only a form of government, it is a process and the process is nasty, as Putin demonstrates to anyone paying attention. The process is critical because the vile product is the result of the inherently depraved process.

China's 5000 years of dictatorship focuses on process, which in the modern world necessarily produces its noxious product.

The Brics are not only a thing, an entity, with a product, the Brics are a process. The Brics are a nasty process so the product is inherently nasty.

You are of course as free as anyone else is to read into what is written. Just pull your head out so you can know up from down and so you can see the light of day. That is, I used the word process, I did not use the word product.

I also said progress.

Still, your post quoted above has a far greater coherence than your typical post, as indicated.....

#8464979

#8465775

#8465715

http://www.ehow.com/about_5069874_components-remedial-reading-programs.html

[Pakboong]

Publicus, with all due respect,, you are arguing product versus process. I too believe the product is not achievable. I am arguing that the process can be very damaging to the 5 countries. Why do you stay lost on this. Nobody is saying it will be successful. It is simply causing the pot to get stirred as the start date approaches.

Your history lesson on the 5 countries is all correct, we are not talking history here. We are talking about what the reaction to the process will be. Putin will put off conflict and the shareholders of the IMf want to nip it in the bud before it even gets a chance. The symptoms of the two are what we are dealing with today.

You keep wanting to accuse me of claiming that BRICS will be a solution and I don't believe that to be true and I don't believe I have said that it will. In fact, early in the BRICS process I maintained that the US and EU should do a preemptive strike. I get paid in dollars, I do not want BRICS to be successful.

The United States of America is a country and society in process, in progress.

The first sentence of my post, which I cite in this post, presents process yet you wrongheadedly claim I am focused on product.

The fact is that process is determining because it leads to the product. Yet you post that I am arguing product. Then you pose your own nonsensical circular question, "Why do you stay lost on this?"

Pull your head out.

My objection to dictatorship is that the process inherent to it is wrong which means the product, as you call it, is necessarily wrong -- and nefarious.

Tsarism is not only a form of government, it is a process and the process is nasty, as Putin demonstrates to anyone paying attention. The process is critical because the vile product is the result of the inherently depraved process.

China's 5000 years of dictatorship focuses on process, which in the modern world necessarily produces its noxious product.

The Brics are not only a thing, an entity, with a product, the Brics are a process. The Brics are a nasty process so the product is inherently nasty.

You are of course as free as anyone else is to read into what is written. Just pull your head out so you can know up from down and so you can see the light of day. That is, I used the word process, I did not use the word product.

I also said progress.

Still, your post quoted above has a far greater coherence than your typical post, as indicated.....

#8464979

#8465775

#8465715

http://www.ehow.com/about_5069874_components-remedial-reading-programs.html

I won't bother to trouble you further. Please put me on ignore. Apparently, I lack the communication skills necessary to make my point.

[BATHIK]

The future of the civilization will be multipolar, globalization had its chance and people didn't like it very much, or rather didn't like that one country had a firm grip on how it goes for the rest of the world.

Economies will remain tightly integrated, of course, but connections between them will become too numerous and independent to control from one center of power.

That will become world's natural failsafe mechanism rather than relying on the mercy of one single watchdog.

Petrodollar will not last forever, not when there's global demand for alternatives.

[Publicus]

The future of the civilization will be multipolar, globalization had its chance and people didn't like it very much, or rather didn't like that one country had a firm grip on how it goes for the rest of the world.

Economies will remain tightly integrated, of course, but connections between them will become too numerous and independent to control from one center of power.

That will become world's natural failsafe mechanism rather than relying on the mercy of one single watchdog.

Petrodollar will not last forever, not when there's global demand for alternatives.

Those who unrelentingly advocate the dictatorships of China and Russia ruling and lording over the world need to explain themselves.

[Asiantravel]

" contempt of democracy, market economics, liberalism, human rights, rule of law is so appealing "

well i hope you dont consider US to represent those values

The US is an oligarchy, study concludes Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters

The US government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country's citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern Universities has concluded.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html

Name one country this doesn't apply to. It certainly applies to the BRICs, even more so than the US. Why are you so anti-American? It gets old.

Oh dear I think you would be better off directing your frustration at the staff members of Princeton and Northwestern Universities who released the study

[Publicus]

" contempt of democracy, market economics, liberalism, human rights, rule of law is so appealing "

well i hope you dont consider US to represent those values

The US is an oligarchy, study concludes Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters

The US government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country's citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern Universities has concluded.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html

Name one country this doesn't apply to. It certainly applies to the BRICs, even more so than the US. Why are you so anti-American? It gets old.

Oh dear I think you would be better off directing your frustration at the staff members of Princeton and Northwestern Universities who released the study

Their approach, intents, purposes are constructive.

Identify a new and major problem to American society, promote awareness and comprehension of it, proscribe, act positively to correct it, all of which are not only possible, but are probable sooner or later.

The professional academics are contributing significantly to the further advancement of U.S. society, political economy, civilization.

The US does have and is a civilization, right?

[coma]

On the brink of WW III. If the US keeps going this is inevitable. The Arabs have had enough of the school yard bully taking down their leader, just to create vacuums that breed more violence.

Start watching the crazy hell preppers documentaries.

[spidermike007]

what transpires from the long-winded OP is that the USA could be toying with the idea to use the intervention against ISIS to also remove Assad from power. killing two birds with one stone - but I wonder what the US has against Assad.

Yes, we all wonder that. Killing 200,000 of your own people, in reckless bombing campaigns shows true leadership ability, so I wonder what on earth the US does not like about this kind and noble leader.

[Pakboong]

To put the squeeze on Russia the international banking community must keep control of the dollar as the world reserve currency. The price of oil must drop and the value of the dollar must rise. Oil can only be purchased in dollars at this point. Oil and gas make up 50% of Russian GDP. When you raise the value of the dollar and drop the price of oil you damage Russia.

In order to believe what I have said above, there must be some belief that the strings are actually pulled above the level of sovereign nations. That concept of thinking outside the box is difficult and I certainly understand why the vast majority of people are not willing to do that kind of thinking.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Pakboong

[manarak]

what transpires from the long-winded OP is that the USA could be toying with the idea to use the intervention against ISIS to also remove Assad from power. killing two birds with one stone - but I wonder what the US has against Assad.

Yes, we all wonder that. Killing 200,000 of your own people, in reckless bombing campaigns shows true leadership ability, so I wonder what on earth the US does not like about this kind and noble leader.

The US began trying to overthrow Assad before the alleged killings took place (and these bombings and gas attacks may very well have been inflated by US propaganda).

I recently researched the matter, and my theory is that Syria is simply an obstacle to US policy in the region.

Syria has been a major player in the region, it is friendly with Iran, intervened in the Lebanon conflict and some organizations such as Hezbollah have their headquarters in Damascus.

After 11.9 2001, Syria cooperated with the US against terrorism, but the US and Syria had a major spat in 2004/2005 (I still need to find out what it was exactly), and shortly after the US began with financing Syrian opposition, including the Syrian muslim brotherhood.

My guess is that the US wanted to use Syrian assets against Iran and that Syria refused.

Edited October 3, 2014 by manarak

[lovetotravel]

Name one country this doesn't apply to. It certainly applies to the BRICs, even more so than the US. Why are you so anti-American? It gets old.

Oh dear I think you would be better off directing your frustration at the staff members of Princeton and Northwestern Universities who released the study

Their approach, intents, purposes are constructive.

Identify a new and major problem to American society, promote awareness and comprehension of it, proscribe, act positively to correct it, all of which are not only possible, but are probable sooner or later.

The professional academics are contributing significantly to the further advancement of U.S. society, political economy, civilization.

The US does have and is a civilization, right?

Don't go talking sensibly. This member still hasn't replied if these same issues applies to the BRICs (which we all know it does). Excellent point though. It's a great country that allows such open introspection and to allow it to be published for the world to see. Would that kind of report ever be possible in one of the BRICs? Impossible.

The only way to better yourself is to analyze your issues and figure out ways to solve them. The sign of a great nation.

[Publicus]

To put the squeeze on Russia the international banking community must keep control of the dollar as the world reserve currency. The price of oil must drop and the value of the dollar must rise. Oil can only be purchased in dollars at this point. Oil and gas make up 50% of Russian GDP. When you raise the value of the dollar and drop the price of oil you damage Russia.

In order to believe what I have said above, there must be some belief that the strings are actually pulled above the level of sovereign nations. That concept of thinking outside the box is difficult and I certainly understand why the vast majority of people are not willing to do that kind of thinking.

The "vast majority of people" you reference are primarily in the People's Republic of China and in the Russian Federation of the conquered and the subjugated as in the Ukraine. Brazil and India are not exactly advanced places either, not to mention the other 80 or so countries the moonbeam Brics sycophants also reference but never identify.

It's also the case that the referendum in Crimea was conducted with no voter rolls or lists and armed Russian soldiers inside and around the polling stations.

Every country has its dolts, the uninformed, the minimally educated, however, democracy and parliamentary systems of government are open so people do learn and we in them do grow into the open and democratic systems and societies we do have.

So who are those 80 countries you moonbeams continually howl about but will never name or identify?

Which 80 countries, by name please thx....................

Kindly don't keep me waiting forever cause my dinner's getting cold.

[Asiantravel]

This is typical of Krugman acolytes that keep bleating that debt doesn't matter... The Keynesian's world is not grounded in reality...

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself as humans have proven time and time again that they cannot learn from their ancestor's mistakes... Every empire throughout history that has devalued it's currency to support an ever-bloating bureaucracy has failed... Every fiat currency down through history has failed... Not some, every one... Every "currency" on the planet today is a fiat currency, backed by nothing but the "good faith" of the issuer...

"Every "currency" on the planet today is a fiat currency, backed by nothing but the "good faith" of the issuer... "

That's because people on this planet have evolved in this direction, rationally and for good reason as is clearly displayed in the historical record.

Without money where would everyone on the planet be? Printing money is necessarily done by fiat and as a fiat - there's nothing inherently wrong with printed money. Ninety-nine percent accept that as a given. Reactionary extreme right wingers long for the old days of bartering, the gold standard, no USA in the world, neither a lender nor a borrower be.

The barter system is ineffective, outdated, awkward, cumbersome, passe'.

The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile.

The long and the short of it is that axe grinding malcontents necessarily are not people of good faith.

“The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile. “

With fiat money, there is no extinguisher of debt. Debts are paid using dollars, but the dollar is itself a debt. The dollar is just a bite-sized piece of the Treasury bond. Paying a debt with a debt merely shifts it around.

The debt must rise exponentially, by at least the accrued interest, and more if the government wants what passes for growth.

" The debt is headed towards collapse, which will be a catastrophe for the dollar."

http://goldstandardinstitute.us/?page_id=737

[Publicus]

This is typical of Krugman acolytes that keep bleating that debt doesn't matter... The Keynesian's world is not grounded in reality...

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself as humans have proven time and time again that they cannot learn from their ancestor's mistakes... Every empire throughout history that has devalued it's currency to support an ever-bloating bureaucracy has failed... Every fiat currency down through history has failed... Not some, every one... Every "currency" on the planet today is a fiat currency, backed by nothing but the "good faith" of the issuer...

"Every "currency" on the planet today is a fiat currency, backed by nothing but the "good faith" of the issuer... "

That's because people on this planet have evolved in this direction, rationally and for good reason as is clearly displayed in the historical record.

Without money where would everyone on the planet be? Printing money is necessarily done by fiat and as a fiat - there's nothing inherently wrong with printed money. Ninety-nine percent accept that as a given. Reactionary extreme right wingers long for the old days of bartering, the gold standard, no USA in the world, neither a lender nor a borrower be.

The barter system is ineffective, outdated, awkward, cumbersome, passe'.

The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile.

The long and the short of it is that axe grinding malcontents necessarily are not people of good faith.

“The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile. “

With fiat money, there is no extinguisher of debt. Debts are paid using dollars, but the dollar is itself a debt. The dollar is just a bite-sized piece of the Treasury bond. Paying a debt with a debt merely shifts it around.

The debt must rise exponentially, by at least the accrued interest, and more if the government wants what passes for growth.

" The debt is headed towards collapse, which will be a catastrophe for the dollar."

http://goldstandardinstitute.us/?page_id=737

You still haven't identified the 80 countries that will join with the Brics to follow their lead in destroying the United States to lead the world into its bright shinny gold centered future.

So I'm not surprised the moonbeam worshipers of gold missed the point of my post, which is that the global systems of economics and finance need the $212 Trillion in existing global capital to sustain and promote GDP. More than that will be needed going forward. There just isn't enough gold in the universe to accomplish the necessary and required global growth and development.

If radical anarchist Mad Max reactionaries want to regress to Medieval life and times why don't they just hook up with the Flat Earth Society and be done with it. The both can hold their séances together.

Government debt does matter, which is why as others here have stated, it remains under control. (I just gave you two more pages of posts about government debt not being out of control. Run with it!)

[cloudhopper]

Debt is not capital, and capital cannot be created by fiat.

[Publicus]

Debt is not capital, and capital cannot be created by fiat.

You and the Austrian school of Mad Max economists are right and the world is wrong.

Debt is socialism, the gold standard is freedom.

I got it, at long last.

[cloudhopper]

Debt is not capital, and capital cannot be created by fiat.

You and the Austrian school of Mad Max economists are right and the world is wrong.

Debt is socialism, the gold standard is freedom.

I got it, at long last.

I don't know which school is right but we are witnessing a huge global experiment in monetarism and the outcome will be known soon enough.

I don't recall ever mentioning gold or socialism in my posts to this thread. I was simply pointing out that un-repayable debt is a false form of capital. I do agree with you that the USD will be the last currency standing, whether or not the central banks continue their present strategy of currency devaluation prior to the inevitable debt deflation to come.

[BATHIK]

I remembered this TED talk from last year, it's an eye opening story of real China, not the one ad nauseam portrayed in these threads:

https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_x_li_a_tale_of_two_political_systems

If you don't have time to sit and watch there's a transcript on that page but the speaker is engaging enough, time well spent.

[Asiantravel]

This is typical of Krugman acolytes that keep bleating that debt doesn't matter... The Keynesian's world is not grounded in reality...

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself as humans have proven time and time again that they cannot learn from their ancestor's mistakes... Every empire throughout history that has devalued it's currency to support an ever-bloating bureaucracy has failed... Every fiat currency down through history has failed... Not some, every one... Every "currency" on the planet today is a fiat currency, backed by nothing but the "good faith" of the issuer...

"Every "currency" on the planet today is a fiat currency, backed by nothing but the "good faith" of the issuer... "

That's because people on this planet have evolved in this direction, rationally and for good reason as is clearly displayed in the historical record.

Without money where would everyone on the planet be? Printing money is necessarily done by fiat and as a fiat - there's nothing inherently wrong with printed money. Ninety-nine percent accept that as a given. Reactionary extreme right wingers long for the old days of bartering, the gold standard, no USA in the world, neither a lender nor a borrower be.

The barter system is ineffective, outdated, awkward, cumbersome, passe'.

The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile.

The long and the short of it is that axe grinding malcontents necessarily are not people of good faith.

“The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile. “

With fiat money, there is no extinguisher of debt. Debts are paid using dollars, but the dollar is itself a debt. The dollar is just a bite-sized piece of the Treasury bond. Paying a debt with a debt merely shifts it around.

The debt must rise exponentially, by at least the accrued interest, and more if the government wants what passes for growth.

" The debt is headed towards collapse, which will be a catastrophe for the dollar."

http://goldstandardinstitute.us/?page_id=737

You still haven't identified the 80 countries that will join with the Brics to follow their lead in destroying the United States to lead the world into its bright shinny gold centered future.

So I'm not surprised the moonbeam worshipers of gold missed the point of my post, which is that the global systems of economics and finance need the $212 Trillion in existing global capital to sustain and promote GDP. More than that will be needed going forward. There just isn't enough gold in the universe to accomplish the necessary and required global growth and development.

If radical anarchist Mad Max reactionaries want to regress to Medieval life and times why don't they just hook up with the Flat Earth Society and be done with it. The both can hold their séances together.

Government debt does matter, which is why as others here have stated, it remains under control. (I just gave you two more pages of posts about government debt not being out of control. Run with it!)

Throughout history has there been any comparable sized country to USA which has suffered from such a prolonged failure to save and invest both on a personal and national level?

And I believe this is significant because the debts and unfunded liabilities of America far exceed its assets.

[lovetotravel]

I remembered this TED talk from last year, it's an eye opening story of real China, not the one ad nauseam portrayed in these threads:

https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_x_li_a_tale_of_two_political_systems

If you don't have time to sit and watch there's a transcript on that page but the speaker is engaging enough, time well spent.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/11/ted_talk_is_propaganda_tool_for_chinese_communism_partner/

When a TED talk is a propaganda tool

HONG KONG – Apparently the TED-talk format is so seductive that it can even make Leninism sound sexy.

In June at a TED talk in Edinburgh, Scotland, a flawlessly groomed venture capitalist named Eric X. Li stood before an elite Western audience. He spent 18 minutes defending China’s authoritarian political system, praising its “adaptability, meritocracy, and legitimacy,” and claiming its superiority, in several respects, to democracy.

“Winston Churchill once said that democracy is a terrible system except for all the rest,” he said. “Well, apparently he hadn’t heard of the Organization Department.”

To people familiar with the pro-regime arguments regularly trotted out in China’s state-run media, Li’s speech was nothing terribly new.

Hardly a video worth watching. Pure propaganda.

[BATHIK]

I've read that Salon article, it's the crappiest piece of journalism I've seen in a while, doesn't even try to live to its headline.

It offers zero support for it, zero evidence that Li works of Chinese government when he writes his articles and gives his talks. At most it states "It’s a question that many critics of China ask as well" and that's it. First you ask a question and they put it into headline as if it's a fact. Now THAT is a pure propaganda trick.

I'm not going to read 4,200 word rebuttal, forget about it. Salon didn't even give a link and not quoted a single argument against Li's presentation.

[Publicus]

“The gold standard is inadequate, insufficient, volatile. “

With fiat money, there is no extinguisher of debt. Debts are paid using dollars, but the dollar is itself a debt. The dollar is just a bite-sized piece of the Treasury bond. Paying a debt with a debt merely shifts it around.

The debt must rise exponentially, by at least the accrued interest, and more if the government wants what passes for growth.

" The debt is headed towards collapse, which will be a catastrophe for the dollar."

http://goldstandardinstitute.us/?page_id=737

You still haven't identified the 80 countries that will join with the Brics to follow their lead in destroying the United States to lead the world into its bright shinny gold centered future.

So I'm not surprised the moonbeam worshipers of gold missed the point of my post, which is that the global systems of economics and finance need the $212 Trillion in existing global capital to sustain and promote GDP. More than that will be needed going forward. There just isn't enough gold in the universe to accomplish the necessary and required global growth and development.

If radical anarchist Mad Max reactionaries want to regress to Medieval life and times why don't they just hook up with the Flat Earth Society and be done with it. The both can hold their séances together.

Government debt does matter, which is why as others here have stated, it remains under control. (I just gave you two more pages of posts about government debt not being out of control. Run with it!)

Throughout history has there been any comparable sized country to USA which has suffered from such a prolonged failure to save and invest both on a personal and national level?

And I believe this is significant because the debts and unfunded liabilities of America far exceed its assets.

Your statement about significance has been false since the Fed was created, which goes back to 1913.

The national economy and financial system of the United States, and any other modern advanced country, are not a household budget, nor are they the budget of a business. This is the operative principle and precept, not the mindset of a household comparison of assets and liabilities.

A government's purpose, function, responsibility and obligation, is to spend money, not to save money. Democratic government is by its nature a not for profit corporation.

The government is, if anything, a charity. given how it provides tax breaks, deductions, exemptions, exclusions to corporations that result in corporations not paying any taxes. But that's another discussion.

The 19th century posters here obsess about something so relatively small as GDP but not at all about something as great and significant as the total assets of the United States.

That is, in addition to the $58 Trillion U.S. capital market, the U.S. infrastructure, land, buildings, furnishings and equipment, personal possessions and the like have a current value of almost $200 Trillion. These factors dominate the U.S. economy and financial systems, not the relatively tiny sum of a $16 Trillion GDP.

The U.S. capital base, or balance sheet, makes it possible to produce the goods and services measured as GDP. The world has confidence in the USD$ because of the worth, value, wealth, productivity of the United States.

[Publicus]

It is a deep dark secret that a government does not have to borrow to spend money, but all of 'em borrow and will continue to borrow until there aren't banks any more. As long as there are banks, governments will instead continue to borrow.

So that should be the next project of the 19th century gold standard reactionaries who actually adore Medieval life and times. Get rid of the banks! Now there's a project for you guys and you might also get some rare sympathy from moi.

Oh, and then there's the 4-6 trillion barrels of black gold under and on the U.S. which is cheerfully provided to us by our own land....we don't even have to put on our Speedos to go get it.

While gold bullion is nice and shinny to fascinate you guys, the black gold under and on the U.S. at $100 a barrel is worth far more than the $200 Trillion of total assets that are currently the United States of America and which continue to expand and to increase.

[lovetotravel]

I've read that Salon article, it's the crappiest piece of journalism I've seen in a while, doesn't even try to live to its headline.

It offers zero support for it, zero evidence that Li works of Chinese government when he writes his articles and gives his talks. At most it states "It’s a question that many critics of China ask as well" and that's it. First you ask a question and they put it into headline as if it's a fact. Now THAT is a pure propaganda trick.

I'm not going to read 4,200 word rebuttal, forget about it. Salon didn't even give a link and not quoted a single argument against Li's presentation.

Eric is involved in politics and has worked for the government before. Maybe not at the time of the talk, but he is a politician. Whatever that means in China. Maybe you'll like this article better:

http://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/25/04/2014/why-democracy-still-wins-critique-eric-x-li’s-“-tale-two-political-systems”

Why democracy still wins: A critique of Eric X. Li’s “A tale of two political systems”

Irony aside, let’s keep in mind that TI index itself is a product of a political system that Li so disparages — democracy (German democracy to be exact). This underscores a basic point — we know far more about corruption in democracies than we do about corruption in authoritarian countries because democracies are, by definition, more transparent and they have more transparency data. While I trust comparisons of corruption among democratic countries, to mechanically compare corruption in China with that in democracies, as Li has done so repeatedly, is fundamentally flawed. His methodology confounds two effects — how transparent a country is and how corrupt a country is. I am not saying that democracies are necessarily cleaner than China; I am just saying that Li’s use of TI data is not the basis for drawing conclusions in either direction. The right way to reach a conclusion on this issue is to say that given the same level of transparency (and the same level of many other things, including income), China is — or is not — more corrupt than democracies.

As outsiders have noticed, Li is clearly anti-democratic. The type of person politicians in Russia (and other non-democratic nations) love.

[cloudhopper]

It is a deep dark secret that a government does not have to borrow to spend money, but all of 'em borrow and will continue to borrow until there aren't banks any more. As long as there are banks, governments will instead continue to borrow.

That is very true, at least for nations like Thailand and the US (and unlike eg Italy) that can print their own currency. (And they do not need to tax to gain revenue for that same reason either, but do so for reasons of social control). The reason they choose to "borrow" the very same currency they can and already do create without limit is to mask the fact that they are diluting the purchasing power of their currency. Financial "assets" can be increased without limit, but the underlying wealth they are supposed to represent is constrained by physics. GDP is an arbitrary quantity that includes deficit spending and a government can increase that number at will by simply printing and spending currency - however this has no effect on the physical supply of labor and goods purchased, only their price and availability, which both deteriorate if governments create too much money.