Dual Citizen Dilemma

[...Ken]

My wife (Thai) just arrived in Thailand and wasn't allowed to enter on her Thai passport because she had previously left Thailand on her Canadian passport. She showed both passports when entering Thailand. Thai immigration only allowed her a 30 day visa on her Canadian passport.

She intends to go to immigration near the airport and see what can be done.

Does anyone know if there is a process that allows her to regain her Thai status without jeopardizing her Canadian status ?

She entered Thailand on a oneway ticket for an indeterminate time period due to a sick parent.

much appreciated.....Ken

[lamphun]

I may be wrong but I think Dual citizenship isn't allowed for anyone over the age of 18. I'd suggest she continues to use her Canadian passport ad does the odd visa run to Mai Sai when needed.

[BangnaBound]

My wife is a Thai/Canadian dual citizen. She travels frequently so called a few people in immigration to make sure there would be know problems. She spoke to one seemingly well informed individual and said that currently there is no problem with a Thai Citizen holding a second citizenship. She also noted that not every officer is clear on this, and if she had problems with one office, just be patient and talk to their superior. Her normal process is to check in and out of Thailand with her Thai passport, and in and out of other countries with her Canadian passport.

Because your wife checked out of Thailand with her Canadian passport it would seem that the paper work (entry/exit stamps) has gotten out of order. Since it is legal to have both passports, there should be some way to solve the problem. My best guess would be for the next time your wife leaves Thailand, to have the immigration officer check both passports out of Thailand. The difference with the two passports should be that they will be collecting and closing out the paper work in the Canadian passport, and issuing new exit paper work on the Thai passport. That way, the next time she comes back to Thailand, the immigration offices has the proper paper to collect and close out when she is checked back into Thailand. But this is just a guess, it’s probably best to call them up and ask, it my take a few tries though.

[cmsally]

Most people exit Thailand on their Thai passport and reenter on their Thai passport and use their foreign passport when entering /leaving the other country. Some like UK have lifelong visa that is stamped in your Thai passport, so you can use one passport between the 2 countries.

In theory if your wife has a Thai passport - why should she need to get a visa when she is a citizen??

I would avoid showing the 2 passports to Thai immigration as although I believe dual nationality is legal ,most officials don't know about it and it seems to put them in the "hotseat"

A good idea (but maybe there's something easier) might be to conveniently lose the Canadian passport (with the nasty stamp in it), get a new one and carry on as normal (Thai passport for in and out of Thailand)

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Why would someone with a Thai ID card have to do visa runs?

[meadish_sweetball]

Ken, if you don't mind, I will be moving this into the Visa section as it may attract more knowledgeable posters there. The link stays in this forum anyway.

[lopburi3]

There is no problem having dual nationality with Thailand but you can meet officers who might not like it too much. The Thai passport alone should have been used for entry into Thailand and the reason for no TM.6 (issued at departure of Thai) the fact that this was her first entry using passport. This is normal for the many passports obtained overseas so should not have been a big problem - even if she had to take it to the next level. But many Thai would prefer to avoid that.

I do not believe she can do anything now at the airport but she should easily obtain a one year extension of stay from immigration Hqs on Soi Suan Plau using her Canadian passport. She will probably have to file out a TM.7 and have a 4x6 cm photo and pay the normal 1,900 baht but it will provide a one year stay (although she should report her address every 90 days if this method is used - unless immigration tells her otherwise).

[samran]

There is no problem having dual nationality with Thailand but you can meet officers who might not like it too much. The Thai passport alone should have been used for entry into Thailand and the reason for no TM.6 (issued at departure of Thai) the fact that this was her first entry using passport. This is normal for the many passports obtained overseas so should not have been a big problem - even if she had to take it to the next level. But many Thai would prefer to avoid that.

I do not believe she can do anything now at the airport but she should easily obtain a one year extension of stay from immigration Hqs on Soi Suan Plau using her Canadian passport. She will probably have to file out a TM.7 and have a 4x6 cm photo and pay the normal 1,900 baht but it will provide a one year stay (although she should report her address every 90 days if this method is used - unless immigration tells her otherwise).

Lop is correct, she will be able to file for a one year extension based on being a 'former' thai national. This will enable her to stay in Thailand.

In actual fact she is a Thai national, still. But, as lopburi3 has said, it was a case of meeting a Thai official at the airport not knowing the rules. Many many members of this site and their wives do indeed have thai dual nationailty and travel doing the passport swap without any problems whatsoever (I am one of them).

Next time she flies out of the country, she should check out on her Canadian passport, and when returning, use her Thai PP again. If in the unlikely situation she meets an uncooperative official, she should inisist on speaking to a senior offical and asserting her rights. It has happened occasionally to others, and the senior offical will allow her to enter as a Thai, which is her right.

[Chang_paarp]

Depending on where the parents are.

Could the lady do a visa run?

Exit on her Canadian p/port and enter on her Thai P/port. Have some suplimentary ID as well and use some of the "foot stamping" skills she has learned in Canada. This would sort all the stamps out and give her the time needed to care for her parents.

[samran]

A question to the Original Poster, where did your Thai wife get her Thai passport from. Canada or Thailand? Was she ever stamped out of Thailand on it at all in the past?

Depending on where the parents are.

Could the lady do a visa run?

Exit on her Canadian p/port and enter on her Thai P/port. Have some suplimentary ID as well and use some of the "foot stamping" skills she has learned in Canada. This would sort all the stamps out and give her the time needed to care for her parents.

I wouldn't recommend doing a visa run (ie cross a land border and then crossing back). Doing passport swapsies there doesn't work when going over land in Asia from my experience, as the immigration officers there tend to keep an eye out for stamp trails and that you have checked out correctly from the previous country.

Best bet would be flying out and then back in, maybe to Singapore or HK, stamping into and out of those countries on a Thai PP, and then re-entering into thailand on the Thai PP and INSISTING on being allowed in on the Thai passport.

[kenk3z]

Consider a similar example of a Thai citizen with dual Tha/USA citizenship, and valid passports (much more than a year validity left) from both countries. Further, presume the Thai passport has been renewed overseas via Thai Embassy in the USA.

So, the returning Thai citizen has to come back in to Thailand with no stamps, visas, or other immigration forms or markings in their new Thai passport. Is this a problem?

OK, a little later, after the nice visit to Thailand, this dual Thai/USA citizen wants to return to the USA. In their possession is a Thai passport with no Visa whatsoever, and a USA passport with no entry markings to Thailand.

How is this person going to leave Thailand on just their Thai passport? They have no Visa to go to the USA. At some point doesn't this person need to show Thai immigration both passports to get out of Thailand?

kenk3z

[lopburi3]

The airline checks that you are allowed to enter the country you are booked to. A passport from that country works just as well as a visa. So you show both passports to airline and receive a TM.6 entry/exit card to fill out. You present the Thai passport with the TM.6 to immigration. They are not likely to check where you are going but if they ask you can show the passport of the county to prove you can enter.

The key to using two passports is to always use the passport of the country you plan to enter/exit.

[edd]

My wife leaves the UK on her British passport

Goes into Thailand on her Thai passport

Out of Thailand on her Thai passport

Into the UK on her British passport.

The boys in brown at the airport have no problems as long as she has a TM card in her Thai passport.

[bwana1952]

Most people exit Thailand on their Thai passport and reenter on their Thai passport and use their foreign passport when entering /leaving the other country. Some like UK have lifelong visa that is stamped in your Thai passport, so you can use one passport between the 2 countries.

In theory if your wife has a Thai passport - why should she need to get a visa when she is a citizen??

I would avoid showing the 2 passports to Thai immigration as although I believe dual nationality is legal ,most officials don't know about it and it seems to put them in the "hotseat"

A good idea (but maybe there's something easier) might be to conveniently lose the Canadian passport (with the nasty stamp in it), get a new one and carry on as normal (Thai passport for in and out of Thailand)

lt is not ever a good idea to lose a passport, not ever. l had mine stolen in January and went to hel_l and back waiting to get a new one / pay the overstay fine. Not good advice at all l am afraid, not under any circumstances. There has to be a better way to resolve this dilemma, than what you are suggesting, which is illegal.

[...Ken]

There is no problem having dual nationality with Thailand but you can meet officers who might not like it too much. The Thai passport alone should have been used for entry into Thailand and the reason for no TM.6 (issued at departure of Thai) the fact that this was her first entry using passport. This is normal for the many passports obtained overseas so should not have been a big problem - even if she had to take it to the next level. But many Thai would prefer to avoid that.

I do not believe she can do anything now at the airport but she should easily obtain a one year extension of stay from immigration Hqs on Soi Suan Plau using her Canadian passport. She will probably have to file out a TM.7 and have a 4x6 cm photo and pay the normal 1,900 baht but it will provide a one year stay (although she should report her address every 90 days if this method is used - unless immigration tells her otherwise).

Lop is correct, she will be able to file for a one year extension based on being a 'former' thai national. This will enable her to stay in Thailand.

In actual fact she is a Thai national, still. But, as lopburi3 has said, it was a case of meeting a Thai official at the airport not knowing the rules. Many many members of this site and their wives do indeed have thai dual nationailty and travel doing the passport swap without any problems whatsoever (I am one of them).

Next time she flies out of the country, she should check out on her Canadian passport, and when returning, use her Thai PP again. If in the unlikely situation she meets an uncooperative official, she should inisist on speaking to a senior offical and asserting her rights. It has happened occasionally to others, and the senior offical will allow her to enter as a Thai, which is her right.

Last time she left Thailand she checked out on her Canadian passport and it was the entering Thailand without a previous 'check out' stamp in her Thai passport that caused the problem.

Not easy for a Thai woman with jet lag at midnight to demand her right to see a senior official.

I wonder if , when she leaves, she can show airline/Thai immigration her Canadian passport for proof of visa not required and have them stamp her Thai passport out ?

The 1 year residency is an option we will look into. The problem is not her Thai citizenship as she can stay forever in Thailand....it is her Canadian passport that will accrue the penalty if it does not leave the kingdom....and wishes to be used in the future to leave/enter Thailand.

She is a polite middle aged woman, so we will see how she does at immigration.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I will post the results.

...Ken

[samran]

Last time she left Thailand she checked out on her Canadian passport and it was the entering Thailand without a previous 'check out' stamp in her Thai passport that caused the problem.

Yes, but she was Thai before she became canadian, and she would have had to have left Thailand at least once on an old Thai passport when she migrated to Canada. If she still has that passport, she should bring that along next time to show she was stamped out.

Not easy for a Thai woman with jet lag at midnight to demand her right to see a senior official.

unfortunately, bullying it is the modus operandi of a Thai government official who doesn't know the rules. I was in the same situation as your wife at 4am once. But it is her right...

I wonder if , when she leaves, she can show airline/Thai immigration her Canadian passport for proof of visa not required and have them stamp her Thai passport out ?

She'll have to show her CDN PP when she flies back to canada. She can try to ask the immigration officer to stamp her out on the Thai passport and the canadian passport, but the general rule is that she has to check out on the passport she checked in on.

She is a polite middle aged woman, so we will see how she does at immigration.

An I am a polite guy and will usually defer to Thai authority....I can be very Thai! But in this case, screw 'em: they were clearly wrong and have caused undue and unneccesary hinderance to your wife, in addition to stomping on her rights as a Thai national and all the benefits that should derive from that.

On the way back in next time, make sure she shows only her Thai PP and make sure that they only stamp her in on that.

[stateman]

Last time I entered Thailand using my US passport. The immegration officer suggested that next time I’d be best to use my Thai passport to enter and exit Thailand - and to use the US passport when entering/exiting the US. I haven't tried that, so don't know how entering/exiting the US without a Thai stamp on the US passport will be.

As for using a US passport to enter Thailand, she offered that if I provide some Thai documents (e.g. ID card, birth cert., etc.), she could stamp my passport for a 1 year stay.

[BKK90210]

Now I’m confused….and here my wife situation

1981 – left Thailand and entered US with thai pp

Since then….she had been back to Thailand 3-4 times (enter & exit w/ US pp)….. each time’s less than 30 days

2006 – entered & left Thailand w/ US pp. The purpose for this trip’s to renew her thai id & pp for the first time in 25 yrs. She didn’t pick up her new thai pp before she left, but told her aunt to send it to the US for her.

Now – We’re in process of moving to Thailand in a few months for at least 5 yrs

My question….what will happen to her at the airport then/ or what should she do

Many thanks

Edited July 26, 2006 by BKK90210

[lopburi3]

She should enter using her Thai passport. If asked why she does not have a TM.6 entry/exit card explain. She did not have the Thai passport when she departed so could not use it - she has it now and will use it. May take a few minutes time but should work.

[BKK90210]

She should enter using her Thai passport. If asked why she does not have a TM.6 entry/exit card explain. She did not have the Thai passport when she departed so could not use it - she has it now and will use it. May take a few minutes time but should work.

Lop...

Now that makes more sense. Big thank you again for your help and I will be sure to pass the info along to her

Bkk

[samran]

She should enter using her Thai passport. If asked why she does not have a TM.6 entry/exit card explain. She did not have the Thai passport when she departed so could not use it - she has it now and will use it. May take a few minutes time but should work.

Lop...

Now that makes more sense. Big thank you again for your help and I will be sure to pass the info along to her

Bkk

my mother who has been in Australia since the early 1970's only started using her Thai PP last year when travelling to Thailand given her desire to stay longer periods. She has had no problems.

[higgy88]

I have two children, both born in Thailand and both hold both Thai and US passports. I was "told" that before my first kid was born, the law in Thailand did not recognize dual citizenship and that any children were to take the citizenship of the father no matter if he/she was born in Thailand or not. This law had already changed when my children were born, and at that time I was "told" that Thailand would give Thai citizenship to any child born in Thailand, but would the gov't would only recognize dual citizenship untill the children turned 18 years old, when they would have to decide which citizenship they wanted. I still have a number of years before that happens so I haven't worried about it. I have traveled back and forth between the US and Thailand, and have used their two passports just as the other posters have, using their Thai passports to enter/leave Thailand and their US passports to enter/leave the US. I also know other people, much older than 18, US/Thai citizens who do the same thing with no problem, and I was told that it pretty much worked on a "don't ask and don't tell" basis with the Thai immigration officers. The US/Thai citizens would just present their Thai passports to Thai immigration who would just stamp it as they would anyone elses. What was important was that they still had the TM arrival/departure card stapled to the passport, and when a new passport was needed, it was gotten from the Thai consolute in the US, and on the next trip to Thailand both the expired Thai passport with the departure card and the new Thai passport without any stamps were presented, with no problems.

Now comes last night. I was just "told" yesterday that Thailand has again changed it's mind and is no longer following the "don't ask and don't tell rule, and that the Thai immigration authorities are now confiscating the Thai passports of any Thai citizen who is over 18 years old and is known to be a citizen of and carrying the passport of another country. Does anyone have any knowledge of the validity of this???? I have just done a search of this forum to see if anything has been written about this subject and it was right there on the top of the list.

[huski]

i find it hard to believe immigration would take away it's citizen's passports, but have listed below what i could find. i am aware many have been using two passports for many years without problems, would like to hear comments of what is expected for the future.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/immigrat...itizenship.html

Some other countries take away citizenship the moment the person acquires another nationality

Numerous countries either ignore or prohibit dual citizenship. These include: Burma, Denmark, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iran, Japan, Kenya, Malaysia, Norway, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Singapore, Syria, Thailand, Vietnam and Zimbabwe.

http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/countrylist.html

Thailand

"The Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.) has opened the possibility for a (foreign born) person, born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, to acquire Thai nationality" (link to Thai embassy in US).

It is unclear exactly what status dual citizenship has in Thai law, though there is at least some recognition

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...&sec=nation

Malaysia, Thailand closer to fixing dual citizenship issue

These people, he added, would have to decide which citizenship to adopt within a stipulated period.

http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/con_info...htm#nationality

1. Whether a person of Thai nationality who has married an alien and acquire nationality of his/her husband /wife lose his/her Thai nationality ?

The person is still a Thai nationality unless:- - He/She desires to renounce Thai nationality by declaring his/her intention to the competent authority. -His/Her Thai nationality is revoked by the Government of the Kingdom of Thailand.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

Thailand’s Nationality Act B.E. 2508 as amended by Acts B.E. 2535 No. 2 and 3 (1992)

[samran]

Now comes last night. I was just "told" yesterday that Thailand has again changed it's mind and is no longer following the "don't ask and don't tell rule, and that the Thai immigration authorities are now confiscating the Thai passports of any Thai citizen who is over 18 years old and is known to be a citizen of and carrying the passport of another country. Does anyone have any knowledge of the validity of this???? I have just done a search of this forum to see if anything has been written about this subject and it was right there on the top of the list.

I note your scepticism about your sources. I shall note a couple of points.

1)I'm pretty screwed if you are right as in the next 6 weeks I'm doing the passport swapsie trick at least 3 times.

2) There have been no announcements as to the ammendment of nationality laws of late.

3) The last time the laws were amended was in 1992. The Thai Nationality Act since then has since then not explicitly allowed dual nationaity, but then again neither does the citizenship legislation in most countries. So as a default, where it is not banned, it assumed to be allowed. Where it becomes an issue (eg in Malaysia, Sinagpore, Belgium) is where it has been explicitly banned via legislation or regulation, and where choice must be made by the dual national.

4) Thai law on nationaity gives the option of a child born to a foreign father, between the age of 20 and 21 to renounce Thai nationality, if that child wishes to retain the nationality of the father.

On this fourth point, if you sit and think about it, you'll see it is unenforcable. The gist of the clause implies, that if for some reason you do not renounce Thai nationality, the Thai government has in some way the power to take away your other nationality. Again, think about this last point.

What would the US government do if it heard that the Thai government someone had taken away the nationality of one of its citizens? Apart from being impossible for one country to take away the nationaity of another country, if it were possible, the US government would raise h3ll for an infingement of the rights and liberties of one of its nationals.

But all this is academic anyway, as the clause I mention has no penalty if the person does not make a choice. The law doesn't say "if no choice is made, Thai nationaity will be revoked". It says nothing. So there is not penalty for a choice not being made.

As far as things stand, the law offers the option for certain dual nationals born to foreign fathers to give up their nationaity between 20 and 21. If they choose not to, then nothing happens. Thats it. The age of 18 is mentioned nowhere in the legislation.

5) You may also be wondering does the Thai government pass laws which are unenforceable? The answer is yes, it does so all the time.

[higgy88]

Thank you for all the info. I believe that there are so many Thais living and working abroad and who have citizenships with other countries that this dual citizenship issue is basically just ignored by the Thai immigration officers. All they really care about is that the person has all of the appropiate documents and papers, such as a valid Thai passport and the other half of the arrival/departure card.

I am always skeptical of information I get here in Thailand, as it is mostly from my wife who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend, etc. We all know how these things travel.

One point I want to make. In my US passport it clearly states "This passport is the property of the US government. It must be surrendered upon demand if made by an authorized representative of the US government." I also looked in my wife's Thai passport, and it is there too, even in English, in the middle of a page written in Thai. "This passport is the property of the Royal Thai Government and may be withdrawn at any time."

I can easily see this rummor getting started by some Thai citizen, who may have been living abroad for too long and may have forgotten how to deal with authority figures and/or just has a hot temper (there are some Thais like this), who got into some sort of altercation with the Thai immigration officer who simply said "I'm keeping your Thai passport. Follow this man to room xxx and talk to my superior. Next."

[dr_Pat_Pong]

There are no moves whatsoever by Thailand to not recognize duality of citizenships for its nationals

[JimGant]

Good thread.

The wife finally got tired of paying for an annual extension stamp; thus, she now has a brand new Thai passport obtained in Bangkok. So, in a few months, she too will have the joy of trying to enter Thailand with a virgin Thai passport -- and no TM-6 attached -- and no old Thai passport to show previous exit.

Does anyone have a feel for whether of not using the "Thai only" (or whatever it's called) checkpoint would be advantageous? Probably no difference, as all workers probably rotate thru every and all positions. But maybe this position is more desirable - and if positions are bid on, may go to more senior (and presumably more knowledgeable) Immigration officers. Or, maybe this is where they put the language/mentally challenged folks..........

Or it may be smarter to use the "Thai only" line since using your Thai passport in a foreign line would kinda stick out........

Any thoughts?

[samran]

Good thread.

The wife finally got tired of paying for an annual extension stamp; thus, she now has a brand new Thai passport obtained in Bangkok. So, in a few months, she too will have the joy of trying to enter Thailand with a virgin Thai passport -- and no TM-6 attached -- and no old Thai passport to show previous exit.

Does anyone have a feel for whether of not using the "Thai only" (or whatever it's called) checkpoint would be advantageous? Probably no difference, as all workers probably rotate thru every and all positions. But maybe this position is more desirable - and if positions are bid on, may go to more senior (and presumably more knowledgeable) Immigration officers. Or, maybe this is where they put the language/mentally challenged folks..........

Or it may be smarter to use the "Thai only" line since using your Thai passport in a foreign line would kinda stick out........

Any thoughts?

I don't think it would be a problem. By all means, use the Thai line. There would be lots of people entering of a virgin passport, so your wife won't be the first.

As I mentioned earlier, my mother recently started using her Thai passport for the first time in 30 years and she faced no problems coming in without an exit stamp. If she runs into problems (unlikely) it will because the officer doesn't know how to deal with no exit stamp. Your wife should simply ask to see a senior officer who can sort things out.

Remember, at the end of the day, she is Thai, and has the right to live here without restriction. Stamp or no stamp, at the end of the day, they are obliged to let her in.

[Nordlys]

How about having a Thai passport issued at Thai embassy overseas and return to Thailand with it claiming you have lost the original Thai passport you left Thailand with while on trip. I suppose that would make leaving that country with Thai passport problematic as the immigration officer is unable to trace your entry record?

But what happens then when a foreign-born Thai person is visiting Thailand for the first time in life when that person has only Thai passport to travel with? I don't think s/he should be barred for entering the country (or leaving the country of the residence) just because s/he doesn't have TM.6 card stapled on passport.

I was born in Thailand to foreign parents and there sure was a first time that I have visited my own country with a blank passport (with only departure stamp from Don Muang)....

[Nordlys]

As I mentioned earlier, my mother recently started using her Thai passport for the first time in 30 years and she faced no problems coming in without an exit stamp.

Samran, was your mother asked to produce the other passport like in the case of OP's wife?