12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[7by7]

(Some nested quotes removed to comply with forum software)

Could a non-Muslim carry on like Choudary and get away with it in the UK?
Is there an equivalent non-Muslim minority figure going on in the same style and getting away with it?
How would either of the above fare in any Muslim country if trying something of the sort?

It would not be allowed. But isn't that the great thing about Western democracies? Free speech.

It is allowed; you only have to look at the activities of people like Tommy Robinson and Pat Condell to see that!

Yes, free speech is one of the cornerstones of Western democracy.

"I abhor what you have to say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." (Original source unknown, but often attributed to Voltaire.)

*posts removed to allow reply*

As much as I am not a fan of Pat Condell, do you actually believe that his clips are anything close to Choudary's level?
Or this? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paris-shootings-british-hate-preachers-4957281#rlabs=1 Or Hamza?

Just wondering if we could get some perspective here.

Condell, Choudary etc. are all the same; self publicists and preachers of hate and division. Probably motivated by their own deep feelings of inadequacy.

The only difference between them is that the media give Choudray and his fellows a lot more publicity; and because of this people tend to think they represent the majority of Muslims. As previously shown, they don't.

Hamza is the same; but went furher; he has actually broken the law and been sentenced to life imprisonment for so doing.

I am not saying that the media should ignore the likes of Choudray, not give them what Thatcher called 'the oxygen of publicity.' We tried that before; it was extremely counter productive.

Sorry for another historical reference; but "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

[Ulysses G.]

That is ridiculous. Condell has nothing in common with Choudary - a radical Muslim nutcase that promotes violence - and his scorn is reserved for religion in general. I am not an atheist, but he makes LOTS of good points and he speaks AGAINST violence and censorship.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

(Some nested quotes removed to comply with forum software)

Could a non-Muslim carry on like Choudary and get away with it in the UK?

Is there an equivalent non-Muslim minority figure going on in the same style and getting away with it?

How would either of the above fare in any Muslim country if trying something of the sort?

It would not be allowed. But isn't that the great thing about Western democracies? Free speech.

It is allowed; you only have to look at the activities of people like Tommy Robinson and Pat Condell to see that!

Yes, free speech is one of the cornerstones of Western democracy.

"I abhor what you have to say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." (Original source unknown, but often attributed to Voltaire.)

*posts removed to allow reply*

As much as I am not a fan of Pat Condell, do you actually believe that his clips are anything close to Choudary's level?

Or this? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paris-shootings-british-hate-preachers-4957281#rlabs=1 Or Hamza?

Just wondering if we could get some perspective here.

Condell, Choudary etc. are all the same; self publicists and preachers of hate and division. Probably motivated by their own deep feelings of inadequacy.

The only difference between them is that the media give Choudray and his fellows a lot more publicity; and because of this people tend to think they represent the majority of Muslims. As previously shown, they don't.

Hamza is the same; but went furher; he has actually broken the law and been sentenced to life imprisonment for so doing.

I am not saying that the media should ignore the likes of Choudray, not give them what Thatcher called 'the oxygen of publicity.' We tried that before; it was extremely counter productive.

Sorry for another historical reference; but "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

Not that I am surprised, but still had a shred of hope that a wee bit balance would prevail.

How exactly, other than lumping them together and claiming that they are "the same", are Condell and Choudray? Thought that the banner carried was "not everyone are the same", turns out it works only for Muslims.

As pointed out, Choudray gets more media time - why would that be?

Did not raise the claim that Choudray represents the majority of Muslims. However, it was actually shown that denouncing Choudray was not as widely spread, or impressive as some attempted to present.

[micmichd]

Some Brits probably want to ban Condell because he's Irish.

[7by7]

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

No; according anti Islam websites and self proclaimed experts there are. As far as I can ascertain the French government have said no such thing; unless you can provide a statement from them to say different.

People like the self styled "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" who said on Fox News that non Muslims never go into Birmingham!

Fox News 'terror expert' says everyone in Birmingham is a Muslim

Pundit on right-wing channel says non-Muslims "simply don't go" into Britain's second largest city, prompting immediate Twitter backlash

He has since apologised for his idiocy. Hopefully he has learned his lesson and will in future check his facts before making such declarations.

As for the legal status of Sharia courts in France; like everyone else here, I know too little to comment.

Other than to say I suspect that they have a similar status to Sharia courts in the UK; i.e can rule in civil matters only, their rulings are only legally binding if both parties agree and their decisions can be, and are, challenged in actual courts of law.

If I am wrong, I'm sure someone will provide evidence of their legal status in France from an official French source.

As for Sharia courts in the UK; that is not a matter for this topic and has been discussed at length here.

[alanrchase]

Some Brits probably want to ban Condell because he's Irish.

Please stop assuming things. Brits, Irish? Assumptions do not help your opinions

[ggold]

Please educate me how these nutters benefit the US, the UK, France or any European country.

Radical Islam also taking hold in Scottish Highlands & Islands, under influence of spiritual leader, Mullah Kintyre. #foxnewsfacts

Birmingham is ‘totally Muslim’ city #FoxNewsFacts

[Mosha]

According to that Fox News expert. Spaghetti Junction is based on Islamic Art. that explains a few things. 555

[uptheos]

According to that Fox News expert. Spaghetti Junction is based on Islamic Art. that explains a few things. 555

Talking of Fox News

[alanrchase]

According to that Fox News expert. Spaghetti Junction is based on Islamic Art. that explains a few things. 555

555.

[Ulysses G.]

People like the self styled "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" who said on Fox News that non Muslims never go into Birmingham!

He did say that and he did apologize, but he has nothing to do with Fox News other than appearing as a guest. Like it or not, he IS an expert on terrorism according to the New York Times and many other publications as well as Richard Clarke, former head of counter-terrorism for the United States National Security Council.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

(Some nested quotes removed to comply with forum software)

Condell, Choudary etc. are all the same; self publicists and preachers of hate and division. Probably motivated by their own deep feelings of inadequacy.

The only difference between them is that the media give Choudray and his fellows a lot more publicity; and because of this people tend to think they represent the majority of Muslims. As previously shown, they don't.

Hamza is the same; but went furher; he has actually broken the law and been sentenced to life imprisonment for so doing.

I am not saying that the media should ignore the likes of Choudray, not give them what Thatcher called 'the oxygen of publicity.' We tried that before; it was extremely counter productive.

Sorry for another historical reference; but "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

Not that I am surprised, but still had a shred of hope that a wee bit balance would prevail.
How exactly, other than lumping them together and claiming that they are "the same", are Condell and Choudray? Thought that the banner carried was "not everyone are the same", turns out it works only for Muslims.

As pointed out, Choudray gets more media time - why would that be?

Did not raise the claim that Choudray represents the majority of Muslims. However, it was actually shown that denouncing Choudray was not as widely spread, or impressive as some attempted to present.

All interesting points and questions, Morch.

But we have already been warned that this is not a topic about the UK, and posts have been deleted, so if you wish to discuss them further I will be happy to do so in the relevant topic.

[Mosha]

According to that Fox News expert. Spaghetti Junction is based on Islamic Art. that explains a few things. 555

555.

For non Brits. You could starve on that junction without a satnav.

[7by7]

People like the self styled "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" who said on Fox News that non Muslims never go into Birmingham!

He did say that and he did apologize, but he has nothing to do with Fox News other than appearing as a guest. Like it or not, he IS an expert on terrorism according to the New York Times and many other publications as well as Richard Clarke, former head of counter-terrorism for the United States National Security Council.

If he is such an expert, why does he make such ignorant statements and then have to offer a grovelling apology?

[Ulysses G.]

Ask the New York Times. They called him "an expert on intelligence" and he frequently testifies before Congressional committees on al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

[Morch]

According to that Fox News expert. Spaghetti Junction is based on Islamic Art. that explains a few things. 555

Talking of Fox News

She scary. Couldn't we just, I dunno...sort of unleash her on the terrorists or something?

[alanrchase]

People like the self styled "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" who said on Fox News that non Muslims never go into Birmingham!

He did say that and he did apologize, but he has nothing to do with Fox News other than appearing as a guest. Like it or not, he IS an expert on terrorism according to the New York Times and many other publications as well as Richard Clarke, former head of counter-terrorism for the United States National Security Council.

I like Fox News. Better than most comedy on satellite.

[7by7]

People like the self styled "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" who said on Fox News that non Muslims never go into Birmingham!

He did say that and he did apologize, but he has nothing to do with Fox News other than appearing as a guest. Like it or not, he IS an expert on terrorism according to the New York Times and many other publications as well as Richard Clarke, former head of counter-terrorism for the United States National Security Council.

If he is such an expert, why does he make such ignorant statements and then have to offer a grovelling apology?

Ask the New York Times. They called him "an expert on intelligence" and he frequently testifies before Congressional committees on al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

Has he has now displayed his total ignorance so publicly, hopefully he will do so no longer!

Or at the very least in future people will check his credentials before asking for his opinion instead of merely taking his word for it!

[micmichd]

Some Brits probably want to ban Condell because he's Irish.

Please stop assuming things. Brits, Irish? Assumptions do not help your opinions

Sorry, since we all have nicknames here I can only guess or assume the nationality behind. As I learned from another topic, Brits and Irish don't like each other too much (moderately said), hence my assumption.

[dragonfly94]

People like the self styled "internationally recognised expert on terrorism" who said on Fox News that non Muslims never go into Birmingham!

He did say that and he did apologize, but he has nothing to do with Fox News other than appearing as a guest. Like it or not, he IS an expert on terrorism according to the New York Times and many other publications as well as Richard Clarke, former head of counter-terrorism for the United States National Security Council.

If he is such an expert, why does he make such ignorant statements and then have to offer a grovelling apology?

well at least the guy apologised for his mistake. You on the other hand claimed that it was a 'fact' that the Bible contains laws about how and when to beat a wife. Utterly wrong as well, but you never had the manners to apologise. You also mis quoted Voltaire, please check your 'facts' instead of making them up.

Edited January 12, 2015 by dragonfly94

[dragonfly94]

Condell, Choudary etc. are all the same; self publicists and preachers of hate and division. Probably motivated by their own deep feelings of inadequacy.

Can't see any hate, division or inadequacy here, looks like you are wrong again:

[Ulysses G.]

well at least the guy apologised for his mistake. You on the other hand claimed that it was a 'fact' that the Bible contain laws about how and when to beat a wife. Utterly wrong as well, but you never had the manners to apologise. You also mis quoted Voltaire, please check you 'facts' instead of making them up.

He also claimed - over and over again - that there were no preconditions for negotiations between the IRA and the British that resulted in an agreement. Not true of course. When presented with evidence that the Brits refused to negotiate with an organization that was still involved in an active military campaign and that they insisted on the "consent principle," which stated that the future of Northern Ireland must be decided by the people of the province, he refused to admit that he had it all wrong.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

(Some nested quotes removed to comply with forum software)

If he is such an expert, why does he make such ignorant statements and then have to offer a grovelling apology?

well at least the guy apologised for his mistake. You on the other hand claimed that it was a 'fact' that the Bible contain laws about how and when to beat a wife. Utterly wrong as well, but you never had the manners to apologise.

See the relevant topic for my comments on that, I'm not going to be dragged off topic in this one.

You also mis quoted Voltaire, please check you 'facts' instead of making them up.

What I actually posted was

"I abhor what you have to say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." (Original source unknown, but often attributed to Voltaire.)

I've highlighted the relevant part in the hope that you understand it this time. If you are still incapable of understanding the highlighted part, find someone to explain it to you.

[7by7]

well at least the guy apologised for his mistake. You on the other hand claimed that it was a 'fact' that the Bible contain laws about how and when to beat a wife. Utterly wrong as well, but you never had the manners to apologise. You also mis quoted Voltaire, please check you 'facts' instead of making them up.

He also claimed - over and over again - that there were no preconditions for negotiations between the IRA and the British that resulted in an agreement. Not true of course. When presented with evidence that the Brits refused to negotiate with an organization that was still involved in an active military campaign and that they insisted on the "consent principle," which stated that the future of Northern Ireland must be decided by the people of the province, he refused to admit that he had it all wrong.

More off topic misquotes from other topics.

What I said, and proved, was that the pre conditions for the formal talks were ironed out at informal talks with no preconditions.

Typical of you both. No real counter argument, so out comes the smear campaign.

Edited January 12, 2015 by 7by7

[dragonfly94]

(

What I actually posted was

"I abhor what you have to say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." (Original source unknown, but often attributed to Voltaire.)

I've highlighted the relevant part in the hope that you understand it this time. If you are still incapable of understanding the highlighted part, find someone to explain it to you.

This was after you posted it some months ago attributing it to Voltaire. If you had bothered to look it up you would know who actually wrote the quote in 1907. This would be trivial if it were somebody else, but you are the poster who always claims his 'facts' are indisputable, clearly they are not. Nothing to do with a smear, just pointing out facts as you are so fond of them

Edited January 12, 2015 by dragonfly94

[Ulysses G.]

What I said, and proved, was that the pre conditions for the formal talks were ironed out at informal talks with no preconditions.

No. That is what you tried to claim AFTER it was proved that there WERE preconditions for the negotiations - more silly spin. It is not what you said to start with. At least the security expert manned up and admitted his mistake.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[micmichd]

This topic has split into so many different concurrent and simultaneous sub-threads that it is really hard to overwie it all.

A big hand to the mod who still manages to manage this complexity.

Kob cun kap.

[nontabury]

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

Where are these no go zones?

I'd like to see that in my home country - I'd put on my cleanest Union-Jack teeshirt, grab a beer and march on straight through these no go zones - only I wouldn't because they only exist in your mind.

Sorry to inform you, but in the late 90's there were no go areas in Oldham,populated by Muslims. The authorities including the police tried to deny this, but it was a fact. Does it happen now? I don't know.

In parts of other northern cities, the police tend to keep a very low profile in certain areas, maybe a good thing, depends on your point of view.

[micmichd]

They said the same about Harlem, NYC, in the 79ies.

Im pale-skinned, was in Harlem then, and no trouble at all.

Your no-go zones are an invention of your paranoia.

[JockPieandBeans]

What does engagement mean from a Muslim point of view?

I think the atrocities being carried out in 26 different Countries, spells out exactly what engagement means from sections of the Muslim population.