17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[MobileContent]

I thought it was OK to work as a"digital nomad".

Yes it is ok but not if you work for a Thai company. A digital nomad works with offshore companies.

[tgeezer]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

So which is it, you know that you can't work in Thailand without a work permit or you can't work in Thailand if you are harming somebody?

[Jingthing]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

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[Jingthing]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

There is no grey area, regardless of where payments are made/processed, regardless of whether the client is overseas or not, if you "work" in Thailand, you need the appropriate visa and work permit.

For all those here that DO comply with those laws, it's annoying to say the least to see others set up camp, undercut costs, and work illegally, cos they don't have the same business "expenses" as the ones doing things legally and correctly.

I don't like or agree with the current laws/regulations, they are far too restrictive (and expensive), but they are the law and to be legal, you have to abide by them.

You're wrong. There is. It's been discussed hundreds of times here as well.

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[pkspeaker]

They were also stealing money from the government as work permits require a fee.. should no one who steals be arrested?

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

[steve187]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

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yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

[beau thai]

So consumers in China are paying money to learn english, and that money finishes up in Chiang Mai.

The company get some cash, the employees get some cash, which will probably be spent locally, incurring some sales tax, and their non- sales tax spend (rent etc) adds to the general economy.

So thailand benefits from this 'crime'. And harm is caused to who?? As has been said above, any thai who could speak english well enough to teach it, wouldnt work for this company for 35k a month.

Maybe government need to rethink how they can benefit from the global digital economy and not lose out to other Asean countries.

[mikeinbangkok]

Any country, whether Western or Asian has clear immigration rules whereby, unless you are a permanent resident with working rights or a citizen, you need to have valid approvals to work. It's nothing uncommon and not specific to Thailand. If someone doesn't understand these basic rules, I could only imagine that they are very stupid.

[John1thru10]

It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name.

It's idiots who freak out about it who give themselves a bad personality.

[Jingthing]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

Yes it bloody well is!

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[John1thru10]

This seems to have riled a few who obviously haven't had to go through the proper route (occasional grind) to get a WP in Thailand and think they are above such trivialities while they pursue their 'free lives' here while they 'bend the rules' thinking they are so smart. Things like this bring home the frailty of their lives here with a bang. Good work by the authorities in CM.

What's riling are self-righteous farangs, actually.

[Mot Dang]

thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

Say what ??? I don't understand. Mi kowchi. Non capisco. Ne comrennent pas. Ne ponimayu. Bu mingbai

[Bluespunk]

Anyone know what type of work permit they could apply for in order to work 'online'?

There isnt one for a self employed single entity your supposed to open a thai company fund it with 2 million and then emply 4 thais for one foreign work permit

STUPIDITY AT BEST and out of touch with the digital age

"out of touch"

Why should the digital age be the exception to this?

[TPI]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

True Mr Costas, it seems that the Thai police are at the beck and call of any thai company that wants to get rid of competition?

[mommysboy]

Tough. Not really right to give people a hard time for working IMHO. Bit like arresting someone for being good.

[georgemandm]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

No con they are doing the wrong think and should be deported out of thailand.

[Hawkman]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

Were you red in the face with self-righteous indignation as you typed this?

Why would he be? Maybe he has had to jump through hoops to attain his status in Thailand and gets a little riled by people who think the system is there to be abused, and it is 'clever' to do so, until they get caught.

Why would anyone get riled by what someone else does? When I waited for ages for mine and the visa, yes it was frustrating; couldn't give a damn if people didn't have to go through it or not. Doesn't concern me, why get riled about something that has zero impact on me.

I really don't understand all this "I have the right paper" and to hell with other people who don't. In my group of friends, some do, some don't, no-one gives a damn. I do know the ones who don't have the visa/wp, do actually want one and don't want to cheat the system, it's just what people do to live and survive in this world.

[newatthis]

I didn't care about the online backpackers getting nailed. No work permit, bad visas...but they also nabbed 5 who had visas, permits but were... "in breach of work conditions" (ie. had side jobs). Um, that means all the boys doing part time work at Bangkok Malls and language centers after hours and on weekends are suddenly susceptible to arrest? I don't think so. I think they should be okay, but the Chiang Mai crowd here put up as poster children to improve education fell in with a group that was "not okay". Here in Amazing Thailand that means someone was not paying their tea money.

Nonetheless, the whole thing is a bit of a bad joke. I pay taxes and get most of it back every year. I have a work permit. But leading private schools hire South Africans on Ed-visas who never graduated high school and give them full time jobs. They seem to be safe, although illegally working and not paying taxes or even having the basic credential that is necessary to work at McDonald's, much less teach primary students. More MOE and Labour Ministry hypocrisy and laughable antics.

There is a lot more bovine fecal matter here than meets the eye.

Interesting point. I just rechecked the warnings in my work permit and basically you can only work at the designated workplace listed in your work permit. So, it does mean that all those boys and girls doing extra part-time work at another place are in breach of their work permits. It's only a 2000 baht fine [or a month in the boob] but if the police really got serious about that, they would pick up a lot of tea money.

[TPI]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

Yes it bloody well is!

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No its not! Only Ozy english is proper!!!!!

[nealthewheel]

So they were teaching online courses to people in China.....no one in China able to do this?

Probably are but then again the numbers in China are mind boggling. After 2 years teaching there I can assure you that "Johnny foreigner" is the rarity unlike here. With over 120 cities with over 1 million inhabitants you soon get lost - until you've been there you can never realise the enormity.

[John1thru10]

Welcome, to Angry Old Man Corner

....where we discuss the news of the day while randomly shouting that all other foreigners are horrible people over extremely minor offenses, claiming that it's the same everywhere, and wishing the worst onto others.

Edited January 23, 2015 by John1thru10

[csabo]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Are you under the impression they were paying income tax? Are you saying that is a victimless crime as well? If all foreign workers in Thailand failed to pay their taxes what would you think then? What if you were the Junta and you knew that the number was not 17 but 17,000 of 170,000, would that change your mind? Where do you think the government would turn for those losses if not prosecuting individuals for this offense?

[Jingthing]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

Yes it bloody well is!

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No its not! Only Ozy english is proper!!!!!

If you don't need a U, just say no!

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[FritsSikkink]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

Thousands of us totally disagree. The letter of the law nonsense means little to most of us

Hope you get caught soon too.

[Guest]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

Looks like you forgot your grammar, your highness. Here it is WITH the comma.

"To me, the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English."

[wolf5370]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.

So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.

Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

You would not be able to do so viable anyway - you would need 4 Thais for every work permit. There is simply no way that could be accommodated viably in a business plan where the only income is via those WP native English speakers. This is a straw man argument.

Thailand are going to continue to hit soft targets, that are not at fault with the sentiment of the law, just the letter of it. If immigration wanted to actually stop illegal workers they would be raiding construction companies and the homes of wealthy Thais that hire illegal Burmese and Cambodians for pennies and treat them like slaves.

This is just a knicker-waving exercise to show they are doing their job, but avoiding causing the problem like they did last year when they causes an exodus of needed Cambodian workers. I only wish the same would happen with native English speakers - that they all stop teaching, or move to Cambodia or China and teach instead - lets see how that helps Thailand. Outside of brick-and-mortar schools, most English teachers will be illegal because there are no WPs for them - there are no "working online" WPs, there are no "self employed" WPs - language schools cannot afford or logistically accommodate WPs for all their teachers. If they did, then the price of courses would be too high and very few would exists - and them only for the wealthiest people and companies.

Pretty much every industrialised country has sets of people that do not follow the letter of the law in their working, but are necessary and therefore overlooked as a necessary evil - here it is done too, until they want to show just how good they are - agreeing with this wacky crack down is simply not understanding the situation, the benefit/deficit or the reasons behind it.

What's the chances that a few doors away the exact same set up is running in competition, but has a "friend" in immigration - certainly a good way to get a monopoly.

[lausie]

I guess this raises the issue of working remotely in general. I know lots of people who get online style jobs - copy editing, writing etc, which can be done from anywhere providing you have a laptop and internet access. Many of those people have such jobs to facilitate travelling the world. Does it mean they need work or similar business visas for each place they visit?

I caught up on work emails while in Thailand last year, was I in breach?

[rwdrwdrwd]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

There is no grey area, regardless of where payments are made/processed, regardless of whether the client is overseas or not, if you "work" in Thailand, you need the appropriate visa and work permit.

For all those here that DO comply with those laws, it's annoying to say the least to see others set up camp, undercut costs, and work illegally, cos they don't have the same business "expenses" as the ones doing things legally and correctly.

I don't like or agree with the current laws/regulations, they are far too restrictive (and expensive), but they are the law and to be legal, you have to abide by them.

The current laws and regulations literally mean that walking down the street is 'work' and therefore it requires a work permit.

So - either everybody requires a work permit, or there IS a grey area. Given precedents, I don't think working for a Thai company and being paid by them in Thailand is part of it though, which is what has occurred here.

[lausie]

P.s. not saying its right, but I think its a grey area that needs to be looked at in general!

[chrisinth]

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......and about 6 months ago (when all the new rules were going into effect) the head of immigration in Chiang Mai got up and said that if you were doing online work for work outside Thailand, you didn't need a B visa or a work permit........................

I believe the comment was misquoted, or at least taken out of context. It was directed at tourists, not people gainfully employed by a company who isn't allowed to operate in Thailand.

Bit of a difference between checking emails and full employment.

Bet this will have the digital nomads having a rethink after all the claims that all is OK, especially in Chiang Mai................................