Thailand's "gay-friendly" image is superficial ...

[Jingthing]

It seems to me that every Thai family have at least one LB or open gay person among their relatives. So I think its accepted as normal even if the laws are not with them . And I wouldnt trust opinion polls like this. I met up on a beach party some time ago and met a thai doctor on a visit from Bangkok, he lived a happy family life and his son (daughter) was a ladyboy. He was very proud of his son, I mean daughter.

There is a lot of media material on this topic ... if you're specifically talking about Thai societies' social expectations of trans/third sex. Basically the family makes a big difference. More elite educated families would be more likely to be supportive of their "third sex" child pursuing anything they like. The majority of Thais still see the social roles for third sex as VERY LIMITED;

sex workers

thieves

entertainers

waiters

clerks

You can choose to put your head in the sand and act like these vicious hurtful stereotypes don't exist but sorry, they DO exist.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

As I'm not a Thai, I can't speak as if I'm a Thai.

The Pew research poll in Thailand was of Thais, not westerners.

Pew Research Center is an American think tank...

Oh, I get it now. It's American so it's worthless.

I didn't say that, but I think the Thais can provide themselves excellent polls for these kind of threads.

They don't need an American one...

Title should be corrected or changed in "Why Americans think that Thailand is not 'friendly' to the Thai LGBT community".

[Jingthing]

As I'm not a Thai, I can't speak as if I'm a Thai.

The Pew research poll in Thailand was of Thais, not westerners.

Pew Research Center is an American think tank...

Oh, I get it now. It's American so it's worthless.

I didn't say that, but I think the Thais can provide themselves excellent polls for these kind of threads.

They don't need an American one...

Title should be corrected or changed in "Why Americans think that Thailand is not 'friendly' to the Thai LGBT community".

So let's see the Thai poll on these topics. Short of that, this thread refers to a polling firm that is very well respected.

[isanbirder]

It seems to me that every Thai family have at least one LB or open gay person among their relatives. So I think its accepted as normal even if the laws are not with them . And I wouldnt trust opinion polls like this. I met up on a beach party some time ago and met a thai doctor on a visit from Bangkok, he lived a happy family life and his son (daughter) was a ladyboy. He was very proud of his son, I mean daughter.

There is a lot of media material on this topic ... if you're specifically talking about Thai societies' social expectations of trans/third sex. Basically the family makes a big difference. More elite educated families would be more likely to be supportive of their "third sex" child pursuing anything they like. The majority of Thais still see the social roles for third sex as VERY LIMITED;

sex workers

thieves

entertainers

waiters

clerks

You can choose to put your head in the sand and act like these vicious hurtful stereotypes don't exist but sorry, they DO exist.

This thread started by being about gays, but now it seems to have veered to third sex. None of us can talk about what 'the majority of Thais' think about third sex people, and I don't think polls would help us. Even the idea of polls, with well-defined questions (and they're not much use otherwise) goes against the much less well-defined thought patterns of Thais (no, I'm not speaking about what Thais have said, but about my experience of reading articles by Thai academics, which tend to go round in circles before disappearing up a point (the nature of which I leave you to decide)).

[Jingthing]

It seems to me that every Thai family have at least one LB or open gay person among their relatives. So I think its accepted as normal even if the laws are not with them . And I wouldnt trust opinion polls like this. I met up on a beach party some time ago and met a thai doctor on a visit from Bangkok, he lived a happy family life and his son (daughter) was a ladyboy. He was very proud of his son, I mean daughter.

There is a lot of media material on this topic ... if you're specifically talking about Thai societies' social expectations of trans/third sex. Basically the family makes a big difference. More elite educated families would be more likely to be supportive of their "third sex" child pursuing anything they like. The majority of Thais still see the social roles for third sex as VERY LIMITED;

sex workers

thieves

entertainers

waiters

clerks

You can choose to put your head in the sand and act like these vicious hurtful stereotypes don't exist but sorry, they DO exist.

This thread started by being about gays, but now it seems to have veered to third sex. None of us can talk about what 'the majority of Thais' think about third sex people, and I don't think polls would help us. Even the idea of polls, with well-defined questions (and they're not much use otherwise) goes against the much less well-defined thought patterns of Thais (no, I'm not speaking about what Thais have said, but about my experience of reading articles by Thai academics, which tend to go round in circles before disappearing up a point (the nature of which I leave you to decide)).

Well, sorry, but you're obviously wrong. The thread refers to the link which includes info about both both gays AND transgender:

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1421901413&section=14&typecate=06

Transgenders, locally referred to as "kathoey," are more common in Thailand than perhaps in any other country in the world, but they too complain of discrimination.

It is estimated that 1 in 166 men in Thailand is kathoey, compared to 1 in 2,500 in the United States, according to research by the University of Hong Kong.

It was not until 2011 that the Ministry of Defence stopped classifying kathoey - men living as women, not limited to those who have undergone gender reassignment surgery - as people with permanent psychological problems.

Again, the legal framework seems to lag behind. Transgender females are still identified as male in their passports, for instance, although there have been hints that kathoey may get formal recognition under the country's next constitution.

"Society seems to have space for transgenders [only] specific to the entertainment and tourism industry," said Kath Khangpiboon, the only transgender lecturer at Bangkok's Thammasat University.

[Gsxrnz]

It seems to me that every Thai family have at least one LB or open gay person among their relatives. So I think its accepted as normal even if the laws are not with them . And I wouldnt trust opinion polls like this. I met up on a beach party some time ago and met a thai doctor on a visit from Bangkok, he lived a happy family life and his son (daughter) was a ladyboy. He was very proud of his son, I mean daughter.

There is a lot of media material on this topic ... if you're specifically talking about Thai societies' social expectations of trans/third sex. Basically the family makes a big difference. More elite educated families would be more likely to be supportive of their "third sex" child pursuing anything they like. The majority of Thais still see the social roles for third sex as VERY LIMITED;

sex workers

thieves

entertainers

waiters

clerks

You can choose to put your head in the sand and act like these vicious hurtful stereotypes don't exist but sorry, they DO exist.

JT. I think all contributors to your thread have been reasonable with our choice of words and some of us have given opinions based on real world examples of real world situations, involving Thai people we actually know.

None of us claim to be an expert on the subject. Nor have we stated emphatically that any of our opinions is the ONLY opinion that can be validated.

Unfortunately, you seem unwilling to discuss the issues raised or respond to anything that is contrary to your opinion or contrary to the opinions expressed in the article you give reference to.

Please give us examples of these vicious stereotypes you refer to, because as a group it appears that the other contributors are not seeing it. If we have formed opinions based on our personal knowledge that indeed is superficial, then please enlighten us with some specific facts that give rise to your opinion.

I would be specifically interested to know if you have discussed these issues directly with Thai gay males, because if you have, I would like to know how their specific experiences and how they differ from those that I know.

[Jingthing]

I'll discuss this matter in the way that suits me. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the roles that "third sex" Thais mostly play in Thai society. Anyone with eyes can observe that OBJECTIVELY. Given there are SO MANY Thai "third genders" as a percentage perhaps compared to any other country, you would expect them to statistically to more often be:

Dentists

Doctors

Politicians

Police Officers

Lawyers

etc. etc.

but they are not.

Dudes, "third sex" people are identifiable easily as "third sex" people and in respectable professions they are rare in Thailand, much less than they would be if there was not strong social pressure to STAY IN THEIR ACCEPTED PLACES. You might say Thais don't care ... they're cool with people being so LIMITED by such things and that may be true, but that doesn't mean what's happening isn't REAL.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[balo]

I'll discuss this matter in the way that suits me. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the roles that "third sex" Thais mostly play in Thai society. Anyone with eyes can observe that OBJECTIVELY. Given there are SO MANY Thai "third genders" as a percentage perhaps compared to any other country, you would expect them to statistically to more often be:

Dentists

Doctors

Politicians

Police Officers

Lawyers

etc. etc.

but they are not.

Dudes, "third sex" people are identifiable easily as "third sex" people and in respectable professions they are rare in Thailand, much less than they would be if there was not strong social pressure to STAY IN THEIR ACCEPTED PLACES. You might say Thais don't care ... they're cool with people being so LIMITED by such things and that may be true, but that doesn't mean what's happening isn't REAL.

My Thai dentist is gay if that helps, with education from the US. . I agree that third genders struggle more to find jobs in Thailand, except working in shopping malls and 7 elevens. Edited January 25, 2015 by balo

[Jingthing]

Does anyone recall the anti-gay slurs against some politicians that came up during the heat of the red-yellow conflict? Not against actual openly gay politicians (I don't think there are any) but used to degrade and insult. I'm really asking because I do remember that in general, but the specifics about that slipped from my memory.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

Does anyone recall the anti-gay slurs against some politicians that came up during the heat of the red-yellow conflict? Not against actual openly gay politicians (I don't think there are any) but used to degrade and insult. I'm really asking because I do remember that in general, but the specifics about that slipped from my memory.

These slurs have been used in a politcal context in a time that the country was devided. Aiming to fragile communities is also usual in Western countries when you have a political malaise.

These slurs can not count as a social debate.

Even so, I'm convinced that the average Thai citizen can make the diffence in not targetting the LGBT community. Plenty of contrary examples have been given on this thread by others.

[Jingthing]

But the poll must be false.

Lost in translation, or something like that.

What I find very funny is that if this Pew poll concluded the exact opposite, nobody here would be dissing the poll. I think you know I'm right on that.

How would I react to that poll with opposite results? I would say the situation is better than I would have expected and it shows great hope for the future progress of GLBT civil rights in Thailand as the poll was of YOUNGER Thais.

But the poll results showed DIFFERENTLY.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

The point is that there should be no special laws that exclude the LGBT community, but there are. For example, marriage should not be restricted to man and woman.

The government is well aware of this, and this is not the first attempt by a constitution drafting committee to bring equal rights for the LGBT community in.

[onthemoon]

I would suggest that male cross dressers with breast augmentation surgery, obviously "camp" gay males, and obviously "butch" gay females get a much, much MUCH better deal from society in general in Thailand than they would in any western country.

As an example, go to random 7/11's or shopping malls throughout the Kingdom and you'll have no trouble finding a fair proportion of the staff are represented by these minorities. Jeez, there are more ladyboys working in the cosmetic sections of the malls than women.

I've not yet seen any discrimination (Thai on Thai) of these minorities, and I think Thailand is the better place for it.

Notwithstanding the legal aspects raised in the article may need addressing.

I'm actually surprised with the results quoted in the Khon Thai survey and would like to see how the question/s were phrased.

Yes, I am also surprised and would like to see the questions. Sounds kind of incredible.

I have been to government offices where effiminate gays and kathoeys worked. Cannot imagine this even in Europe.

[onthemoon]

Back to the discrimination question, can someone list the names of all the openly gay elected MP's in the entire history of Thailand? Not closeted ones.

You do not understand Thai culture a bit. When politicians are gay and they want it known, people will know it. There is no in-the-face "I am gay" declaration as in the West.

[Thai at Heart]

Can anywhere be guaged truly gay friendly. Everywhere has its bigots and problem.

[Jingthing]

Can anywhere be guaged truly gay friendly. Everywhere has its bigots and problem.

Sure there are bigots everywhere, but it's all relative.

[onthemoon]

Can anywhere be guaged truly gay friendly. Everywhere has its bigots and problem.

True. But Thailand is still better than any other country I know. And I think Europe, Australia and Canada are very open!

Edited January 25, 2015 by onthemoon

[Jingthing]

Oops!

Egg on my face but the THAI poll numbers were apparently from a THAI organization. The article was taking those and comparing to other countries from Pew Research. So it wasn't directly Pew vs. Pew for the Thai numbers,

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1421901413&section=14&typecate=06

Among Thais between 15 and 24 years old, 56 per cent think homosexuality is wrong, according to recent research by Khon Thai Foundation, a non-profit organization.

[isanbirder]

This thread started by being about gays, but now it seems to have veered to third sex. None of us can talk about what 'the majority of Thais' think about third sex people, and I don't think polls would help us. Even the idea of polls, with well-defined questions (and they're not much use otherwise) goes against the much less well-defined thought patterns of Thais (no, I'm not speaking about what Thais have said, but about my experience of reading articles by Thai academics, which tend to go round in circles before disappearing up a point (the nature of which I leave you to decide)).

Well, sorry, but you're obviously wrong. The thread refers to the link which includes info about both both gays AND transgender:

I referred to the thread, not the link, JT. But granting you that point, you have completely neglected the rest of what I said.

Thai thought-patterns, and Asian thought-patterns in general, are very different from Western thought-patterns. We are still conditioned by Aristotelian logic, while Asians simply do not have this in their ingrained thought-patterns.

Even the words don't mean the same. This is a well-known feature in linguistics known as semantic spread. Take the word 'friend', for example. What does a Thai mean by friend? The range of meaning goes much closer to what we would call acquaintance. (Many of us have come across "This is my friend; I don't know his name", which is inconceivable in the West). At the other end of the spectrum, a Thai friend of mine used to describe me as his 'best friend'. I've heard him do so in speeches made in Thai to a Thai audience.... and he had to use the English words.

This whole discussion relies on two imprecisions, whether Thais in general can adapt their way of thought to a poll, which has to be precise to be useful, and what the English words actually mean when used by a Thai.

[Jingthing]

It was a Thai poll.

Yes I think we all understand that Thai culture is very different than Western culture.

But that doesn't mean, on an EXPAT FORUM, that we forfeit being able to discuss our impressions about the way things are in Thailand compared to other countries.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

It was a Thai poll.

Yes I think we all understand that Thai culture is very different than Western culture.

But that doesn't mean, on an EXPAT FORUM, that we forfeit being able to discuss our impressions about the way things are in Thailand compared to other countries.

Of course we can discuss these things, but we should be very careful NOT to say "this is what Thais think", because we just don't know. Especially as the discussion has been mostly about Thai attitudes to other Thais.

[Scott]

I've been with the same Thai person for 23 years. He also has a brother who is gay. My partner has traveled extensively (and lived with me overseas). He maintains that Thailand is not gay friendly, at least for Thais.

Thailand is a Buddhist country and they have the ability to either ignore or tolerate better than some cultures. They do both with a lot of gay people.

When I have asked him about why gay foreigners find it friendly, he has explained that foreigners simply do not count in the scheme of things. It's a xenophobic country and improper behavior by foreigners is expected.

At any rate, that's his take on it.

My take is that unlike a few other places, we aren't likely to get our skulls bashed in, which is a good thing.

[Jingthing]

Exactly, Scott.

Foreigners see the superficial stuff and usually make their conclusions based on that, and don't have a clue about the deeper stuff of what it actually feels like to be a gay Thai in Thailand. This published Thai poll from the article gives some objective evidence that the deeper stuff tells a different story than most foreigners obviously believe.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It was a Thai poll.

Yes I think we all understand that Thai culture is very different than Western culture.

But that doesn't mean, on an EXPAT FORUM, that we forfeit being able to discuss our impressions about the way things are in Thailand compared to other countries.

Of course we can discuss these things, but we should be very careful NOT to say "this is what Thais think", because we just don't know. Especially as the discussion has been mostly about Thai attitudes to other Thais.

Well, you know, I think brain surgeons should be very careful, but on an internet discussion forum I think it's probably OK to just talk about stuff and not over-stress.

An exception might be the visa advice subforum or similar here where incorrect information can really mess up people's lives.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

It was a Thai poll.

Yes I think we all understand that Thai culture is very different than Western culture.

But that doesn't mean, on an EXPAT FORUM, that we forfeit being able to discuss our impressions about the way things are in Thailand compared to other countries.

Of course we can discuss these things, but we should be very careful NOT to say "this is what Thais think", because we just don't know. Especially as the discussion has been mostly about Thai attitudes to other Thais.

Well, you know, I think brain surgeons should be very careful, but on an internet discussion forum I think it's probably OK to just talk about stuff and not over-stress.

An exception might be the visa advice subforum or similar here where incorrect information can really mess up people's lives.

Since we both 'like' Scott's post, JT, I'm going to leave it at that.

Cheers, mate.

[onthemoon]

I'd say that some Thai people think that Thailand is not gay-friendly is because they don't know how it is in other countries.

Yes, Thais (in general) could be friendlier to gays, the world is not perfect. However, they are friendlier towards gays than people of all other countries I know.

It's not superficial whether or not you get your skulls bashed in.

[robertthebruce]

with nearly 5 years living here, i have never ever encoutered any problems...

all Thais have been mega friendly towards me, which is great..

after all i am a human being...... i deserve respect, like the next person...

[Jingthing]

with nearly 5 years living here, i have never ever encoutered any problems...

all Thais have been mega friendly towards me, which is great..

after all i am a human being...... i deserve respect, like the next person...

The question is really about Thai perception rather than foreigner perception. I have experienced explicit homophobia from Thais though. They were Thai Muslims down south.

My perception perhaps wrong is that a lot of more elite Chinese Thai gay men play the closet game and marry women. How gay friendly is that? That's like the USA in the 1950s.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited January 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[jay1980]

There can't be too many ladyboy MP's in the US or UK I would have thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Brown_%28politician%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Sinclaire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30399565

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/05/02/uk-trans-woman-former-councillor-hopes-to-become-brighton-mp/

there are a few in the UK, none of the as pretty as Nok though

[Jingthing]

Back to the discrimination question, can someone list the names of all the openly gay elected MP's in the entire history of Thailand? Not closeted ones.

There was Nok, the transgender MP. Not sure of his/her sexuality.

There can't be too many ladyboy MP's in the US or UK I would have thought.

But back to the discrimination question - can someone tell me how many openly gay people ran for election in the entire history of Thailand.

That was incorrect information

There never was a transgender MP in Thailand.

"Nok" won a provincial office, not MP.

She was required (under Thai law) to run using her MALE birth name.

http://www.advocate.com/news/world-news/2012/05/28/thai-transgender-activist-wins-provincial-election

“We barely have any rights at all at this point,” she told a Global Post interviewer shortly before the election. “Our genitalia is not recognized as female (even after surgery) so, if we’re jailed, we’re put in prison with the men. We can’t get proper health insurance. We can’t get married. We have problems traveling outside the country and trouble dealing with banks and government offices.”

As the current drafters of the Thai constitution are reported to be seriously consider EQUALITY language for Thai "third sex" persons and have ruled out any equality language for GAY Thais ... it can be argued that Thailand's sexual minorities civil rights attention is much more focused on "third gender" and not on gay Thais. Yes Thailand is different in so many ways ... that too.

This documentary gets into some of the civil rights politics of third gender Thais ... and the limited social roles most feel pressured into by Thai society. However, I don't think there is anything about gay Thais and unlike the west there doesn't seem to be a significant POLITICAL ALLIANCE between gay Thais and third gender Thais.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ4MTYxMTEy.html

Edited January 26, 2015 by Jingthing