Thailand's "gay-friendly" image is superficial ...

[redandyellow]

My (undoubtedly skewed) perception is that Thais generally live and let live, in a society that tolerates kathoeys (about 1 % of the boys), they're much more integrated than transvestites in the west. I realize it's apples and oranges, but it infers a certain degree liberalism, in terms of accepting gays..faux compassion or otherwise..

IMHO, Thais accept gays as part of the greater social milieu..

Those Thais that dislike farang in general may put some gay farang on false notice, that gays aren't liked..when it just may be a blanket policy for all farang, straight, gay and indifferent..

signed,

strident blanket policies certainly suck. .

[redandyellow]

"I find it surprising that Thailand, being one of the most gay-friendly countries [for foreigners], does not have laws that support and protect the LGBT community," said L'Estrange, an Irish-American who has lived in Thailand for almost 10 years..."

Au contraire me thinks.. it's a my bpen rai culture..maybe they need laws for mai nois though

[Jingthing]

Acceptance?

Hmm.

http://www.fridae.asia/gay-news/2009/02/23/2223.chiang-mai-gay-pride-parade-called-off

Petchawat Wattanapongsirikul, a leading member of the "Rak Chiang Mai 51" group was quoting as saying in the report that said local residents disagreed with the parade as it was against the old city's culture and could tarnish its image. He added that Phuket or Pattaya, which were tourist entertainment cities, would be more suitable to host such events. "Chiang Mai people cannot accept this and will stop the parade by all means, even violence," he said.

Foreigners in general here understand their rights are limited ... as they are foreigners. The question in the OP is about the experience of THAI sexual minorities in their OWN country.

Also of course gay tourists and expats can have a "gay old time" in Thailand in the same ways as their straight counterparts (except the option of marriage to their Thai partners) but again that isn't really the point of the OP. In fact that kind of fun party aspect of tourism Thailand gives a lot of foreigners a false superficial impression of the social realities of sexual minority Thais. What may seem like a "gay paradise" for some foreigners doesn't necessarily translate into a "gay paradise" for the locals. But again, it's not Iran either ... nobody is saying that!

[Jingthing]

Another article suggesting there is more to this story than superficial impressions of how wonderful it is for sexual minorities in Thailand:

http://time.com/12603/thailands-intolerance-of-its-own-lgbt-community-will-surprise-you/

Thailand’s Intolerance of Its Own LGBT Community Will Surprise You

Systemic discrimination is evident. A collaborative UNESCO, Plan International and Mahidol University study from November found that a third of 2,000 surveyed LGBT students had been physically harassed, a fourth sexually. Only a minority had previously told anyone about the bullying, even though it had caused many of them to be depressed and 7% to attempt suicide.

...

The LGBT people who do well in Thailand tend to keep their sexual orientation hidden. “If Thailand had been really tolerant, people would come out. But they don’t,” says Douglas Sanders, a Canadian professor emeritus specializing in Asian LGBT issues. “No prominent celebrity or political figure has come out, so there are no role models.”

[onthemoon]

The LGBT people who do well in Thailand tend to keep their sexual orientation hidden

I don't know how old this study is that you re quoting, but if you open your eyes, you know that this is not true now.

Why do you spend so much effort to make Thailand look worse than it really is? What is your agenda to try to show that Thailand were unfriendly to gays?

In your opinion, what country is better for gays than Thailand?

[Keesters]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

Did you even read the article? It's typical anti-gay civil rights rhetoric to suggest gay people seek "special" treatment. That's a crock. We seek EQUAL treatment.

You have the constitution that forbids discrimination on sexual etc grounds. I know we may not have a constitution at the moment but I'm pretty sure that protection of gays, indeed, anyone of any sexuality, will be included in the next.

Getting that enforced or accepted by the public at large however is another matter and you'll probably have as much luck as getting all motorcyclists to wear helmets here.

I would like to say however that IMO many Thais confuse ladyboys as gays. Ladyboys are not necessarily gay and v.v.

[luk AJ]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

Did you even read the article? It's typical anti-gay civil rights rhetoric to suggest gay people seek "special" treatment. That's a crock. We seek EQUAL treatment.

You have the constitution that forbids discrimination on sexual etc grounds. I know we may not have a constitution at the moment but I'm pretty sure that protection of gays, indeed, anyone of any sexuality, will be included in the next.

Getting that enforced or accepted by the public at large however is another matter and you'll probably have as much luck as getting all motorcyclists to wear helmets here.

I would like to say however that IMO many Thais confuse ladyboys as gays. Ladyboys are not necessarily gay and v.v.

not necessarily gay? If not gay what are they in your opinion?

[Keesters]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

Did you even read the article? It's typical anti-gay civil rights rhetoric to suggest gay people seek "special" treatment. That's a crock. We seek EQUAL treatment.

You have the constitution that forbids discrimination on sexual etc grounds. I know we may not have a constitution at the moment but I'm pretty sure that protection of gays, indeed, anyone of any sexuality, will be included in the next.

Getting that enforced or accepted by the public at large however is another matter and you'll probably have as much luck as getting all motorcyclists to wear helmets here.

I would like to say however that IMO many Thais confuse ladyboys as gays. Ladyboys are not necessarily gay and v.v.

not necessarily gay? If not gay what are they in your opinion?

Transgender.....

[luk AJ]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

Did you even read the article? It's typical anti-gay civil rights rhetoric to suggest gay people seek "special" treatment. That's a crock. We seek EQUAL treatment.

You have the constitution that forbids discrimination on sexual etc grounds. I know we may not have a constitution at the moment but I'm pretty sure that protection of gays, indeed, anyone of any sexuality, will be included in the next.
Getting that enforced or accepted by the public at large however is another matter and you'll probably have as much luck as getting all motorcyclists to wear helmets here.

I would like to say however that IMO many Thais confuse ladyboys as gays. Ladyboys are not necessarily gay and v.v.

not necessarily gay? If not gay what are they in your opinion?

Transgender.....

this is how they feel, but ok I don't want to discuss this further. Sorry for the interruption. I wish to withdraw from tos topic

[Jingthing]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

Did you even read the article? It's typical anti-gay civil rights rhetoric to suggest gay people seek "special" treatment. That's a crock. We seek EQUAL treatment.

You have the constitution that forbids discrimination on sexual etc grounds. I know we may not have a constitution at the moment but I'm pretty sure that protection of gays, indeed, anyone of any sexuality, will be included in the next.

Getting that enforced or accepted by the public at large however is another matter and you'll probably have as much luck as getting all motorcyclists to wear helmets here.

I would like to say however that IMO many Thais confuse ladyboys as gays. Ladyboys are not necessarily gay and v.v.

No, there are clear reports that there intentionally will no mention of civil rights for gay Thais in the new constitution. They are calling transgender third sex and may or may not have language about them, but definitely not about gays. So it may deal with GENDER IDENTITY issues but will NOT deal with ORIENTATION issues. Yes, you are correct, in Thailand (and elsewhere) people confuse GENDER identity with sexual orientation, which are of course completely DIFFERENT things.

[Keesters]

Why should there be special laws for LGBT community in LOS ? Which laws need to be improved ?

Did you even read the article? It's typical anti-gay civil rights rhetoric to suggest gay people seek "special" treatment. That's a crock. We seek EQUAL treatment.

You have the constitution that forbids discrimination on sexual etc grounds. I know we may not have a constitution at the moment but I'm pretty sure that protection of gays, indeed, anyone of any sexuality, will be included in the next.

Getting that enforced or accepted by the public at large however is another matter and you'll probably have as much luck as getting all motorcyclists to wear helmets here.

I would like to say however that IMO many Thais confuse ladyboys as gays. Ladyboys are not necessarily gay and v.v.

No, there are clear reports that there intentionally will no mention of civil rights for gay Thais in the new constitution. They are calling transgender third sex and may or may not have language about them, but definitely not about gays. So it may deal with GENDER IDENTITY issues but will NOT deal with ORIENTATION issues. Yes, you are correct, in Thailand (and elsewhere) people confuse GENDER identity with sexual orientation, which are of course completely DIFFERENT things.

Why do you feel that gays need special protection or mention in the constitution? Are gays not humans? IMO the third sex should also not require special mention as they too are human.

Any constitution should cover ALL people without the need for specifics. To place them in categories as straight, gay, 3rd sex etc. is sexist and discriminationary itself.

[Jingthing]

Should cover. In reality, does NOT cover. Generally in pretty much all countries sexual minorities have been unfairly discriminated against under government laws or worse. Their equality is not assumed under laws. Such legal equality can be pursued legally via new constitutions and new laws. Explicit language in constitutions makes changes in laws towards equality for sexual minorities EASIER to happen. For example, transgenders seeking the right to change their gender on government documents and same sex people being afforded the same legal protections of their primary spouse relationships (marriage). The issue is EQUAL RIGHTS under the law, not special rights. The constitution of South Africa provides a template of what can be done in a modern constitution.

Of course no government constitution or law can legislate change in social attitudes of the people. As in the poll referred to in the OP about the prevalence of negative attitudes towards homosexuality in the OP.

[Keesters]

Should cover. In reality, does NOT cover. Generally in pretty much all countries sexual minorities have been unfairly discriminated against under government laws or worse. Their equality is not assumed under laws. Such legal equality can be pursued legally via new constitutions and new laws. Explicit language in constitutions makes changes in laws towards equality for sexual minorities EASIER to happen. For example, transgenders seeking the right to change their gender on government documents and same sex people being afforded the same legal protections of their primary spouse relationships (marriage). The issue is EQUAL RIGHTS under the law, not special rights. The constitution of South Africa provides a template of what can be done in a modern constitution.

Of course no government constitution or law can legislate change in social attitudes of the people. As in the poll referred to in the OP about the prevalence of negative attitudes towards homosexuality in the OP.

Explicit language in mentioning gay, lesbian, transgender etc. does make those minorities special if no mention is made of the majorities. Wording has to be generic enough to cover EVERY group without mentioning ANY group.

Personally I need no constitution to tell me how to behave indiscriminately towards people who are 'different' than me as I was properly educated. But then I also come from a land that has no formal constitution.

The inclusion of rights in the later, constitution, is quite honestly meaningless unless those rights are also included in the former, education. There's that word again, EDUCATION, that seems to appear in almost all ThaiVisa threads. I wonder why!

[Scott]

I asked my partner about his experiences over seas -- some of these were travels with me and some were in his own work. For some odd reason, he found Turkey to be a very gay friendly country. I think he found them very attractive and I think there was a mutual attraction by them. I wouldn't call it really gay friendly, but it is quite gay active, but again, that's from him.

The other two places he found very tolerant and accepting were New York City and San Francisco. He loves NYC, but doesn't care for San Francisco quite as much.

He spent considerable time in Europe, the Caribbean and most of Asia. None of those places were of any real interest to him and he found them less tolerant. The Caribbean was quite intolerant.

He is not obviously gay, by the way.

[Jingthing]

Yep, the Caribbean region is generally known to be extremely homophobic. Particularity JAMAICA. The comment on Turkey is interesting. I have limited experience there but gay paradise isn't how I would describe it, but plenty of steam baths, that's for sure.

But again we're getting into the issue of the perception of locals (that mostly HAVE to live there) and perception of outsiders/tourists, etc.

[Scott]

Yes, and other than living with me in a few places that I worked, he was a tourist and being a tourist, visitor or guest, is different than being a local.

[alex88]

I come from Australia which is supposedly one of the most gay friendly countries in the world. I can walk hand I. Hand with a gay thai anywhere in Thailand and never worry about my safety. I. Australia I wouldn't dare. Also I have never met a gay thai who had any Problem coming out to their families. Whereas in Australia most gay people have a very difficult time coming out to families.

From my experience I have found thailand to be far more gay friendly than Australia.

[alex88]

As for legal issues. Thailands laws are written by an ethnically Chinese elite who have nothing to do with Thai culture or Thai people so that is irrelevant to general experience of how Thais perceive gay people

[Jingthing]

I come from Australia which is supposedly one of the most gay friendly countries in the world. I can walk hand I. Hand with a gay thai anywhere in Thailand and never worry about my safety. I. Australia I wouldn't dare. Also I have never met a gay thai who had any Problem coming out to their families. Whereas in Australia most gay people have a very difficult time coming out to families.

From my experience I have found thailand to be far more gay friendly than Australia.

That's not too surprising. Anglo background countries generally have severe homophobia issues.

[alex88]

And yet in surveys like the one you quoted Australia generally comes out as either the most gay friendly or one of the most gay friendly countries on earth.

[Jingthing]

And yet in surveys like the one you quoted Australia generally comes out as either the most gay friendly or one of the most gay friendly countries on earth.

Does it really? News to me.

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[alex88]

These kind of surveys can be very misleading as for example the latest figure in Australia is about 75% support marriage equality, yet Australia is still a place where you have to be careful how you behave in public as a gay male.

[alex88]

Yes jingthing indeed gay rights is a constantly obsessed over issue and Australians are considered to be among the most gay friendly people on earth.

[alex88]

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/politics/130607/the-20-most-and-least-gay-friendly-countries-the-world in this survey Australia came 5th above France and the uk and most other countries quizzed

[Jingthing]

OK.

Anyway of course not getting beat up is important but there are hidden social pressures on Thais we don't see that impact on happiness.

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[alex88]

Absolutely, as there are everywhere. No place is perfect. Gay rights is an issue everywhere in the world, some places worse than others. However From what Thai friends tell me being gay is not something other Thais feel the need to comment about. There's always room for improvement but Thailand is not a violently hostile place. None of us have a right to expect others opinions of us to be one of 'acceptance' as long as they don't take action against us. What other people think about is is none of our business. All that matters is that Thailand is not a place where being gay frequently leads to violence.

[Jingthing]

I don't agree that is all that matters.

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[alex88]

You said you were from South Africa? Well despite the legal environment South Africa is an extremely homophobic country where violence against gays is the norm. That would be a far more pressing issue.

[alex88]

The point is that even though Thailand has a long way to go, I have travelled all over the world and never been to a place where gays and especially trans people are tolerated as much as they are in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

You said you were from South Africa? Well despite the legal environment South Africa is an extremely homophobic country where violence against gays is the norm. That would be a far more pressing issue.

Nope. Never said that.