Thai editorial: Old players can doom reform

[webfact]

EDITORIAL
Old players can doom reform
The Nation

Deep-rooted mistrust won't help Thailand move forward

BANGKOK: -- Thailand's political reform means different things to different people. To some, including a few influential foreign governments, the word "reform" is closely linked with how soon a general election can be held. To one half of Thailand, "reform" must deal with the chronic problem of corruption, which many consider the main cause of the country's political ills. To the other half, "reform" must mean and deliver "justice" to those "unfairly accused" or those whose rights were snatched away through undemocratic means.

We can see the obvious conflicts among the three camps. The first sees an early election as essential while the second views the pre-coup democratic system as deep-rooted in corruption, and the people in this camp don't mind a long break from democracy if solutions to the problem can be effectively guaranteed. The last group, like the first, wants an early poll, and it additionally will scrutinise "anti-corruption" measures inside and out for fear they could amplify the "injustice".

So there are the expectations and the realities. The expectations are clashing and the reality is there are people in all camps who will stop at nothing until their wishes are granted. Impasse already looms and the country's misery is likely to continue way beyond the enactment of the new constitution, the next election and the setting up of a new government.

Unless, of course, the existing enemies, who have engaged in mutual destruction and kept Thailand at a standstill in the process, decide to call it a day. The imminent deadlock boils down to one word, "mistrust". The key political players are afraid that their enemies will come to reap benefits or persecute them if the "reform" goes one way or the other. This is all the rivals are thinking about, which is said, because the "reform" is supposed to make the Thai lives in general better, not serve any particular group or vested interests.

For Thailand to see genuine peace, have healthy democratic competition and be able to enforce stringent anti-corruption measures without drawing suspicion or scepticism from any side, the enemies must leave the scene. It must be a clear-cut, unconditional departure and there must be no nominees. It's time to pass the torch to the new generation of politicians who can compete without anybody's shadow looming over their heads.

Only the enemies' unequivocal and unconditional departure can usher in a new political era where the prime minister won't be suspected of serving anything but the best interests of the people. Of course, many will ask "Where's the justice, then?" A lot of leading figures on both sides of the divide will ask what makes them deserve to quit politics for real and for good. The truth is the general public wants "justice", too, and the term "justice" here means an end to being held hostage to bad consequences of no-holds-barred cut-throat politics.

That's what "reform" should deliver. This kind of reform is not up to the charter drafters alone. They need genuine help from the political enemies who must learn to sacrifice and be made to realise that regardless of whether they have been right or wrong their actions have led the country to this dismal state and there is no denying that.

Just as importantly, this kind of reform requires help from all Thais. Everyone needs to truly understand democracy and be willing to start anew when key rivals leave the arena. Thailand can get out of the vicious cycle, but for that to happen some people will need to make big sacrifices and others must learn to trust democracy again.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Old-players-can-doom-reform-30254139.html


-- The Nation 2015-02-16

[selftaopath]

"Everyone needs to truly understand democracy ..., and Thailand can get out of the vicious cycle, but for that to happen some people will need to make big sacrifices..."

WOW. Tall order for most Thais IMO.

[yellowboat]

Many are betting the reforms do little more than marginalize the voting blocks of the north and east, giving the Army and the Elite more power. Looking forward to being proven wrong.

[Roadman]

Good article. Actually do not see it as the need for the old brigade to call it a day (it would help) but more so putting the controls in place to keep them all in line.

Within the reforms strengthen the controls and punishment, shorten the court trial time frames and enforce court judgements and the law for the "old" and the new players alike. The NRC are on the right path with putting a group, in this case the NACC, as a watchdog over the politicians, and along with the courts out of their reach of politicians, until they can learn to play in the sand pit and share their toys. And would add that they should also put in a reform clause that anybody handing out threats to court judges even their names and address's should be loaded up with a couple of kgs of hash, and given a one way plane ticket to Indonesia.

Would not be what you would do in a western democracy but after 80 years of the majority of thai politicians acting like Thailand is their own personal bank account drastic controls are required to deliver what most thai's want in an orderly fashion.

[Robby nz]

There are certainly those who don't want and will oppose reforms in any way they can for their own selfish means.

But to suggest all of the old politicians should be discarded will only punish those who don't deserve to be punished.

There is no doubt that some are worse than others and richly deserve to be ousted and the majority of them are well known.

Making stringent rules as to who can and can not participate in politics based on things like criminal history and proven corrupt or unethical practice and strictly enforcing those rules is a better way to go.

However reforms are not just about politics and reforms of education, health, police, courts and the justice system among others, should be at least as important if not more so.

Sure clean up politics but don't get bogged down with it.

[WitawatWatawit]

The only proven method (and it's far from infallible) to keep politicians in line is accountability. The reformers badly need to tighten up the rules governing the checks and balances agencies - if they are to make politicians accountable, they must completely independent and free from even the slightest hint of interference. One wonders whether this call for the dinosaurs to be culled makes any sense - sure it would be nice to resume business with a relatively clean plate, but until there is a very real fear of being caught and punished, you are merely playing musical chairs. Don Chipp famously said, "We'll keep the b*stards honest", a sentiment that badly needs acting upon here in Thailand, and it's how to achieve this that should be foremost in the reformers' minds.

[LivinLOS]

To one half of Thailand, "reform" must deal with the chronic problem of corruption, which many consider the main cause of the country's political ills. To the other half, "reform" must mean and deliver "justice" to those "unfairly accused" or those whose rights were snatched away through undemocratic means.

Love how they attempt to set up a false equivalency with 2 equal 'halves'.. If they really were halves, then one side would not have dominated politics for the last 12 or so years.. One side would not have won landlslide elections.. Another side would not need to boycott elections or outspend the other 3:1 to still lose.. There would not be a desperate and obvious need to rejig the electoral process and to set up unaccountable and appointed unelected bodies..

If they just wrote it honestly that a minority group wishes X and a majority group wishes Y.. It would at least pass the sniff test.

By the time the army was 'foreced' to step in Suthep had a few 100 grannys with happy clappers and the whole thing had burnt itself out.. They 'had' to step in, otherwise they would have to concede defeat..

[Eric Loh]

We keep avoiding the big elephant in the room when we talk about political reform. It's simply not sufficient for the existing political enemies to leave the scene to get out of this vicious cycle. The military is also part of the problem and need a paradigm change to their behavior in this modern times. The establishment handy men in the courts and agencies would also need to be depart voluntarily so there will be no more suspicion or sceptism from all sides. If you want everyone to understand democracy, leave democracy alone without truncation from coups and the people will grow to trust the system and confident that they have the penultimate decision and mandate on who choosing the best leaders. Look around in our closest neighbors like Indonesia and Phillipines on how their democracy have been strengthened without repeated coups. Add Singapore and Malaysia that never had any coups and how far they have progressed economically and democratically.

[phoenixdoglover]

"By the time the army was 'foreced' to step in Suthep had a few 100 grannys with happy clappers and the whole thing had burnt itself out.. They 'had' to step in, otherwise they would have to concede defeat."

Indeed. The protests had dwindled. I was in Bangkok when one of the last large marches took place. It was an inconvenience for shoppers at MBK and Siam Paragon; nothing more.

But civil war was imminent, don't you know? There were the 23 armed people in Khon Kaen. A grave threat to the nation.

[robblok]

The only proven method (and it's far from infallible) to keep politicians in line is accountability. The reformers badly need to tighten up the rules governing the checks and balances agencies - if they are to make politicians accountable, they must completely independent and free from even the slightest hint of interference. One wonders whether this call for the dinosaurs to be culled makes any sense - sure it would be nice to resume business with a relatively clean plate, but until there is a very real fear of being caught and punished, you are merely playing musical chairs. Don Chipp famously said, "We'll keep the b*stards honest", a sentiment that badly needs acting upon here in Thailand, and it's how to achieve this that should be foremost in the reformers' minds.

That is exactly how i feel about it.. without real punishment and a chance to get caught the politicians will go on being corrupt.

[robblok]

"By the time the army was 'foreced' to step in Suthep had a few 100 grannys with happy clappers and the whole thing had burnt itself out.. They 'had' to step in, otherwise they would have to concede defeat."

Indeed. The protests had dwindled. I was in Bangkok when one of the last large marches took place. It was an inconvenience for shoppers at MBK and Siam Paragon; nothing more.

But civil war was imminent, don't you know? There were the 23 armed people in Khon Kaen. A grave threat to the nation.

Just look up the Trad massacre where 2 pickups drove into an anti government protest and started shooting and lopping grenades.. 2 children died and many others were wounded. Later news of this attack was celebrated at a redshirt meeting with high ranking PTP members present. It was all taped and only until Tida realized what bad publicity this potentially could be did it die down.

Fact is had Thaksin not been included in the amnesty.. nothing would have happened. but no big criminal leader needed it and so he stuffed it up. It still could have been ok if they had not let free the armed terrorist wing that lobbed the grenades had the war weapons and such.

I could state now.. that everyone loves the current government as there are almost no protests.. or I could be more realistic and know that they fear the army.. just like the anti government protesters were not safe from attacks by those red cowards and that also made the numbers go down.

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

We keep avoiding the big elephant in the room when we talk about political reform. It's simply not sufficient for the existing political enemies to leave the scene to get out of this vicious cycle. The military is also part of the problem and need a paradigm change to their behavior in this modern times. The establishment handy men in the courts and agencies would also need to be depart voluntarily so there will be no more suspicion or sceptism from all sides. If you want everyone to understand democracy, leave democracy alone without truncation from coups and the people will grow to trust the system and confident that they have the penultimate decision and mandate on who choosing the best leaders. Look around in our closest neighbors like Indonesia and Phillipines on how their democracy have been strengthened without repeated coups. Add Singapore and Malaysia that never had any coups and how far they have progressed economically and democratically.

Many folks would strongly challenge your claims that both Malaysia and Singapore have made big advances in the building of democracy and for different reasons.

Look what just happened in Malaysia to Anwar. Now that's a real case of political interference with the justice systems.

[MaxLee]

A face obsessed society amongst the most influential elite in Thailand ain't gonna open their minds to an emerging already connected open next generation Thais

[Eric Loh]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

We keep avoiding the big elephant in the room when we talk about political reform. It's simply not sufficient for the existing political enemies to leave the scene to get out of this vicious cycle. The military is also part of the problem and need a paradigm change to their behavior in this modern times. The establishment handy men in the courts and agencies would also need to be depart voluntarily so there will be no more suspicion or sceptism from all sides. If you want everyone to understand democracy, leave democracy alone without truncation from coups and the people will grow to trust the system and confident that they have the penultimate decision and mandate on who choosing the best leaders. Look around in our closest neighbors like Indonesia and Phillipines on how their democracy have been strengthened without repeated coups. Add Singapore and Malaysia that never had any coups and how far they have progressed economically and democratically.

Many folks would strongly challenge your claims that both Malaysia and Singapore have made big advances in the building of democracy and for different reasons.

Look what just happened in Malaysia to Anwar. Now that's a real case of political interference with the justice systems.

I am aware of the reasons and frankly as a citizen, I am not impressed with the PAP use of the courts to silence oppositions. Same can be said of Malaysia. There are discontent and growing in these two countries and have seen in recent election results of huge migration of voters against the incumbents. That's the type of democracy maturity I am refering to. Power in the hands of voters; not in hands of guns.

Got to add this too if some here talk about democracy and corruption in the same breathe. Some even claim that good democracy means less corruption. Well, Singapore good example of bad democracy and less corruption.

[FangFerang]

Old players can doom reform

Should read

Old players will doom reform

[candide]

Well, when I see the current institutional modernity in the style of the 50's, I dont see who the new players are....

[Fat Haggis]

I keep reading from a certain section that it's the dodgy politicians that need to be kept in check and not a single mention of reforming the military who have staged 19 coups.

It's high time they were also held accountable they should never be above the law and a General who breaks the law should be punished no differently than politicians and the electorate.

Monkeys will fly combat aircraft before the military give up that power.

The democrat leader is also very quiet these days, and anyone who thinks that political meetings have not happened and still happening underground also need a reality check, it's time for the General to accept that he just cannot expect things to go his way when it comes to politics, if he really believes in his own popularity, form his own party, and run an election before the years out, according to many here he would walk it.. ?

Thailand deserves better from its politicians and the military, you cannot keep taking the ball home when you don't like how the game is played !!!!

[FangFerang]

"By the time the army was 'foreced' to step in Suthep had a few 100 grannys with happy clappers and the whole thing had burnt itself out.. They 'had' to step in, otherwise they would have to concede defeat."

Indeed. The protests had dwindled. I was in Bangkok when one of the last large marches took place. It was an inconvenience for shoppers at MBK and Siam Paragon; nothing more.

But civil war was imminent, don't you know? There were the 23 armed people in Khon Kaen. A grave threat to the nation.

Just look up the Trad massacre where 2 pickups drove into an anti government protest and started shooting and lopping grenades.. 2 children died and many others were wounded. Later news of this attack was celebrated at a redshirt meeting with high ranking PTP members present. It was all taped and only until Tida realized what bad publicity this potentially could be did it die down.

Fact is had Thaksin not been included in the amnesty.. nothing would have happened. but no big criminal leader needed it and so he stuffed it up. It still could have been ok if they had not let free the armed terrorist wing that lobbed the grenades had the war weapons and such.

I could state now.. that everyone loves the current government as there are almost no protests.. or I could be more realistic and know that they fear the army.. just like the anti government protesters were not safe from attacks by those red cowards and that also made the numbers go down

I dislike both sides altogether. Selective memory is all ego and no humanity.

Your language is grammatically and logically incorrect and exaggerated. Two people were killed in Trad, tragically murdered, but killed. More than one hundred people were massacred in 1973 by the military, and in 1988, and over 90 during 2010 (including children and women huddling in a temple) and....this list is far from comprehensive.

The numbers of protesters dwindled in 2013 because the people protesting lacked conviction, in short and simple. Suthep remarked he had a meeting with Prayuth well ahead of the coup, when Prayuth allegedly said ,"You and your people are tired, let the military take it from here."

Red cowards...really? Was it a red coward that held a man by the throat who wanted to vote? Or a red coward who put a man in a coma in front of his pregnant wife for bumping illegal traffic cones, or a red coward who killed the university students near Don Meung, or any number of other atrocities like the man taken against his will (kidnapped) at Lumpini and held for a week without food or water or medicine (he was diabetic) by those lovely non-violent, peaceful PDRC hypocrites?

I dislike both sides altogether. Selective memory is all ego and no humanity.

[billd766]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

We keep avoiding the big elephant in the room when we talk about political reform. It's simply not sufficient for the existing political enemies to leave the scene to get out of this vicious cycle. The military is also part of the problem and need a paradigm change to their behavior in this modern times. The establishment handy men in the courts and agencies would also need to be depart voluntarily so there will be no more suspicion or sceptism from all sides. If you want everyone to understand democracy, leave democracy alone without truncation from coups and the people will grow to trust the system and confident that they have the penultimate decision and mandate on who choosing the best leaders. Look around in our closest neighbors like Indonesia and Phillipines on how their democracy have been strengthened without repeated coups. Add Singapore and Malaysia that never had any coups and how far they have progressed economically and democratically.

Many folks would strongly challenge your claims that both Malaysia and Singapore have made big advances in the building of democracy and for different reasons.

Look what just happened in Malaysia to Anwar. Now that's a real case of political interference with the justice systems.

In Singapore there is effectively a one party state under the Peoples Action Party (PAP) and has been since 1959.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Singapore

quote Wiki "Foreign political analysts and several opposition parties including the Workers' Party of Singapore and the Singapore Democratic Party (SDP) have argued that Singapore is a de facto one-party state. The Economist Intelligence Unit classifies Singapore as a "hybrid" country, with authoritarian and democratic elements. Freedom House does not consider Singapore an "electoral democracy" and ranks the country as "partly free". Reporters Without Borders ranked Singapore 140th out of 167 countries in its 2005 Press Freedom Index

Lee Kuan Yew became the First Minister (aka PM) and his son Lee Hsien Loong is now First minister.

Hey Eric do you still think that Singapore is such a democratic country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew

quote Wiki "

As the co-founder and first Secretary-General of the People's Action Party (PAP), he led the party to eight victories from 1959 to 1990, and oversaw the separation of Singapore from Malaysia in 1965 and its subsequent transformation from a relatively underdeveloped colonial outpost with no natural resources into a "First World" Asian Tiger. He is one of the most influential political figures in Asia.^[7]

Singapore's second prime minister, Goh Chok Tong, appointed him Senior Minister in 1990. He held the advisory post of Minister Mentor, created by his son Lee Hsien Loong, when the latter became the nation's third prime minister in August 2004.^[8][9] With his successive ministerial positions spanning over 50 years, Lee is also one of history's longest-serving ministers. On 14 May 2011, Lee and Goh announced their retirement from the cabinet after the 2011 general election.^[10]

[robblok]

"By the time the army was 'foreced' to step in Suthep had a few 100 grannys with happy clappers and the whole thing had burnt itself out.. They 'had' to step in, otherwise they would have to concede defeat."

Indeed. The protests had dwindled. I was in Bangkok when one of the last large marches took place. It was an inconvenience for shoppers at MBK and Siam Paragon; nothing more.

But civil war was imminent, don't you know? There were the 23 armed people in Khon Kaen. A grave threat to the nation.

Just look up the Trad massacre where 2 pickups drove into an anti government protest and started shooting and lopping grenades.. 2 children died and many others were wounded. Later news of this attack was celebrated at a redshirt meeting with high ranking PTP members present. It was all taped and only until Tida realized what bad publicity this potentially could be did it die down.

Fact is had Thaksin not been included in the amnesty.. nothing would have happened. but no big criminal leader needed it and so he stuffed it up. It still could have been ok if they had not let free the armed terrorist wing that lobbed the grenades had the war weapons and such.

I could state now.. that everyone loves the current government as there are almost no protests.. or I could be more realistic and know that they fear the army.. just like the anti government protesters were not safe from attacks by those red cowards and that also made the numbers go down

I dislike both sides altogether. Selective memory is all ego and no humanity.

Your language is grammatically and logically incorrect and exaggerated. Two people were killed in Trad, tragically murdered, but killed. More than one hundred people were massacred in 1973 by the military, and in 1988, and over 90 during 2010 (including children and women huddling in a temple) and....this list is far from comprehensive.

The numbers of protesters dwindled in 2013 because the people protesting lacked conviction, in short and simple. Suthep remarked he had a meeting with Prayuth well ahead of the coup, when Prayuth allegedly said ,"You and your people are tired, let the military take it from here."

Red cowards...really? Was it a red coward that held a man by the throat who wanted to vote? Or a red coward who put a man in a coma in front of his pregnant wife for bumping illegal traffic cones, or a red coward who killed the university students near Don Meung, or any number of other atrocities like the man taken against his will (kidnapped) at Lumpini and held for a week without food or water or medicine (he was diabetic) by those lovely non-violent, peaceful PDRC hypocrites?

I dislike both sides altogether. Selective memory is all ego and no humanity.

just checking victims its quite clear those red terrorist were far more violent. As for you not liking any side.. who are you kidding.

As for the guy who got put into coma.. unforgivable of course and as I seem to recall he was handed over to the police.. that is totally different from the police protecting the red terrorist from harm.

And you are a liar or he is a liar.. if you don't give someone food or water for a week he will die. Just look it up..

[marinediscoking]

"By the time the army was 'foreced' to step in Suthep had a few 100 grannys with happy clappers and the whole thing had burnt itself out.. They 'had' to step in, otherwise they would have to concede defeat."

Indeed. The protests had dwindled. I was in Bangkok when one of the last large marches took place. It was an inconvenience for shoppers at MBK and Siam Paragon; nothing more.

But civil war was imminent, don't you know? There were the 23 armed people in Khon Kaen. A grave threat to the nation.

Just look up the Trad massacre where 2 pickups drove into an anti government protest and started shooting and lopping grenades.. 2 children died and many others were wounded. Later news of this attack was celebrated at a redshirt meeting with high ranking PTP members present. It was all taped and only until Tida realized what bad publicity this potentially could be did it die down.

Fact is had Thaksin not been included in the amnesty.. nothing would have happened. but no big criminal leader needed it and so he stuffed it up. It still could have been ok if they had not let free the armed terrorist wing that lobbed the grenades had the war weapons and such.

I could state now.. that everyone loves the current government as there are almost no protests.. or I could be more realistic and know that they fear the army.. just like the anti government protesters were not safe from attacks by those red cowards and that also made the numbers go down

I dislike both sides altogether. Selective memory is all ego and no humanity.

Your language is grammatically and logically incorrect and exaggerated. Two people were killed in Trad, tragically murdered, but killed. More than one hundred people were massacred in 1973 by the military, and in 1988, and over 90 during 2010 (including children and women huddling in a temple) and....this list is far from comprehensive.

The numbers of protesters dwindled in 2013 because the people protesting lacked conviction, in short and simple. Suthep remarked he had a meeting with Prayuth well ahead of the coup, when Prayuth allegedly said ,"You and your people are tired, let the military take it from here."

Red cowards...really? Was it a red coward that held a man by the throat who wanted to vote? Or a red coward who put a man in a coma in front of his pregnant wife for bumping illegal traffic cones, or a red coward who killed the university students near Don Meung, or any number of other atrocities like the man taken against his will (kidnapped) at Lumpini and held for a week without food or water or medicine (he was diabetic) by those lovely non-violent, peaceful PDRC hypocrites?

I dislike both sides altogether. Selective memory is all ego and no humanity.

Yes the selective memory is rampant here. There is really no comparison to the number of people killed from those years. A complete double standard without acknowledging that.

[DoctorB]

As one who lived and worked in central London during the IRA campaign of the 1970s and 80s, and now watches with trepidation the endless attempts by Islamist loonies to commit mass murder on London's streets, I have to say that to describe last year's violence between the so-called "Reds" and "Yellows" as "terrorism" is simply a preposterous exaggeration; repeated here endlessly by the usual suspects, presumably to prove the proposition that "a lie can be halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on".

The only real, comparable, terrorism in Thailand is in the southern provinces, carried out by Islamist separatists. If the Thai army had one ounce of integrity or justification for its existence the Generals and Colonels would be down there trying to protect the people, before ISIS or some other hardline bunch of Caliphate inspired loonies really gets a grip and starts hacking heads off. Instead they prefer to turn their guns on their own people and sit in Bangkok preening themselves as saviours of the nation from the evils of democracy.

A truly sad state of affairs; even sadder that so many TV poster applaud them for doing so.

[robblok]

As one who lived and worked in central London during the IRA campaign of the 1970s and 80s, and now watches with trepidation the endless attempts by Islamist loonies to commit mass murder on London's streets, I have to say that to describe last year's violence between the so-called "Reds" and "Yellows" as "terrorism" is simply a preposterous exaggeration; repeated here endlessly by the usual suspects, presumably to prove the proposition that "a lie can be halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on".

The only real, comparable, terrorism in Thailand is in the southern provinces, carried out by Islamist separatists. If the Thai army had one ounce of integrity or justification for its existence the Generals and Colonels would be down there trying to protect the people, before ISIS or some other hardline bunch of Caliphate inspired loonies really gets a grip and starts hacking heads off. Instead they prefer to turn their guns on their own people and sit in Bangkok preening themselves as saviours of the nation from the evils of democracy.

A truly sad state of affairs; even sadder that so many TV poster applaud them for doing so.

You must have missed Trad then.. I mean if you call driving into a crowd of harmless anti government protesters with 2 cars and then opening fire with automatic rifles and throwing grenades not terrorism.. then I have no Idea what is.

Thing is we get likes for stating this because the majority of the farangs is educated and has chosen the anti Thaksin camp with good reason. There are some die hard redshirt farangs here but they are a minority. There as a time there were a lot paid for by Thaksin posters too.. kinda says it all.

Many are not even residing in Thailand either and claim knowledge of the country

Edited February 16, 2015 by robblok

[Eric Loh]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

We keep avoiding the big elephant in the room when we talk about political reform. It's simply not sufficient for the existing political enemies to leave the scene to get out of this vicious cycle. The military is also part of the problem and need a paradigm change to their behavior in this modern times. The establishment handy men in the courts and agencies would also need to be depart voluntarily so there will be no more suspicion or sceptism from all sides. If you want everyone to understand democracy, leave democracy alone without truncation from coups and the people will grow to trust the system and confident that they have the penultimate decision and mandate on who choosing the best leaders. Look around in our closest neighbors like Indonesia and Phillipines on how their democracy have been strengthened without repeated coups. Add Singapore and Malaysia that never had any coups and how far they have progressed economically and democratically.

Many folks would strongly challenge your claims that both Malaysia and Singapore have made big advances in the building of democracy and for different reasons.

Look what just happened in Malaysia to Anwar. Now that's a real case of political interference with the justice systems.

In Singapore there is effectively a one party state under the Peoples Action Party (PAP) and has been since 1959.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Singapore

quote Wiki "Foreign political analysts and several opposition parties including the Workers' Party of Singapore and the Singapore Democratic Party (SDP) have argued that Singapore is a de facto one-party state. The Economist Intelligence Unit classifies Singapore as a "hybrid" country, with authoritarian and democratic elements. Freedom House does not consider Singapore an "electoral democracy" and ranks the country as "partly free". Reporters Without Borders ranked Singapore 140th out of 167 countries in its 2005 Press Freedom Index

Lee Kuan Yew became the First Minister (aka PM) and his son Lee Hsien Loong is now First minister.

Hey Eric do you still think that Singapore is such a democratic country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew

quote Wiki "

As the co-founder and first Secretary-General of the People's Action Party (PAP), he led the party to eight victories from 1959 to 1990, and oversaw the separation of Singapore from Malaysia in 1965 and its subsequent transformation from a relatively underdeveloped colonial outpost with no natural resources into a "First World" Asian Tiger. He is one of the most influential political figures in Asia.^[7]

Singapore's second prime minister, Goh Chok Tong, appointed him Senior Minister in 1990. He held the advisory post of Minister Mentor, created by his son Lee Hsien Loong, when the latter became the nation's third prime minister in August 2004.^[8][9] With his successive ministerial positions spanning over 50 years, Lee is also one of history's longest-serving ministers. On 14 May 2011, Lee and Goh announced their retirement from the cabinet after the 2011 general election.^[10]

Singapore has yet to achieved a level of successful democracy like Taiwan or South Korea. There are still elements of undemocratic practices like blocking civil societies and public from speaking out and also banning public protests plus using courts to silence political opponents. But it has provided its citizens with democratic safeguards like easy assess to education, housing, healthcare, safety and security. Will that be enough for the large middle class who has raised their voices louder each year for better participation in running the city state and not dominated by policies of strong men. That has been manifested in recent election results and the ruling PAP has woken up to this challenge. Anyway,isn't it refreshing to know that the citizens voices can be heard and change a government without the use of guns.

[Thai at Heart]

The only proven method (and it's far from infallible) to keep politicians in line is accountability. The reformers badly need to tighten up the rules governing the checks and balances agencies - if they are to make politicians accountable, they must completely independent and free from even the slightest hint of interference. One wonders whether this call for the dinosaurs to be culled makes any sense - sure it would be nice to resume business with a relatively clean plate, but until there is a very real fear of being caught and punished, you are merely playing musical chairs. Don Chipp famously said, "We'll keep the b*stards honest", a sentiment that badly needs acting upon here in Thailand, and it's how to achieve this that should be foremost in the reformers' minds.

Without a functioning independent legal system it doesn't mean anything

[yellowboat]

We keep avoiding the big elephant in the room when we talk about political reform. It's simply not sufficient for the existing political enemies to leave the scene to get out of this vicious cycle. The military is also part of the problem and need a paradigm change to their behavior in this modern times. The establishment handy men in the courts and agencies would also need to be depart voluntarily so there will be no more suspicion or sceptism from all sides. If you want everyone to understand democracy, leave democracy alone without truncation from coups and the people will grow to trust the system and confident that they have the penultimate decision and mandate on who choosing the best leaders. Look around in our closest neighbors like Indonesia and Phillipines on how their democracy have been strengthened without repeated coups. Add Singapore and Malaysia that never had any coups and how far they have progressed economically and democratically.

China during its KMT year at the end of the Manchu Dynasty, foreigners were hired to look after customs and other departments. In Singapore, a foreign security force protects ranking officials and the mint. Brunei makes use of Hong Kong Judges.

If Thailand really wanted to change, it may need people who are alien to the common practices which are common today. We all know this would never happen, and there will be no change.

[Fatty123]

You're asking the fat kid to take his hand out of the cookie jar.

[JAG]

Old players can doom reform

Should read

Old players will doom reform

There won't be any meaningful reforms. The old players are in charge, and the only "real reforms" they will effect are those that will keep them in power. They have to stay in power until a certain inevitable if unwelcome event, ro ensure rhat they come out of the ensuing upheaval on top. The stakes could not be higher Edited February 16, 2015 by JAG

[JAG]

As one who lived and worked in central London during the IRA campaign of the 1970s and 80s, and now watches with trepidation the endless attempts by Islamist loonies to commit mass murder on London's streets, I have to say that to describe last year's violence between the so-called "Reds" and "Yellows" as "terrorism" is simply a preposterous exaggeration; repeated here endlessly by the usual suspects, presumably to prove the proposition that "a lie can be halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on".

The only real, comparable, terrorism in Thailand is in the southern provinces, carried out by Islamist separatists. If the Thai army had one ounce of integrity or justification for its existence the Generals and Colonels would be down there trying to protect the people, before ISIS or some other hardline bunch of Caliphate inspired loonies really gets a grip and starts hacking heads off. Instead they prefer to turn their guns on their own people and sit in Bangkok preening themselves as saviours of the nation from the evils of democracy.

A truly sad state of affairs; even sadder that so many TV poster applaud them for doing so.

The top military are simply not interested in terrorism in the south. It is a long way from the Officers Messes of Bangkok, it is no real threat to their own powerbase, and anyway they don't have the beginnings of a clue as to how to fight it. You're right though, it is a sad state of affairs.