Faster or slower?

[Gweiloman]

So lets get this right, you are actually arguing that the safest way to travel is to be racing ahead of everybody else.

You have to be there sooner than everyone else?

Or are you saying that it's a right for all Bikers to race ahead of all car drivers?

I think you will have a lot of car drivers who think they have the right to be in front as well?

Tuk Tuk and Taxi drivers deserve to be in front because they are carrying paying customers.

Emergency vehicles want to be at the front because they are saving lives.

And at the end of the day because the junction at the end of the road is clogged up with the people who wanted to 'be in front' ten mins earlier now nobody is going anywhere fast.

There have been many studies done of this round the world, there are advanced traffic systems around major city hubs designed to speed up flow due to these facts.

You are really losing the plot here.

We are talking about how to be safe® on Thai roads (and any other roads in the world for that matter). On a two wheeler that is unprotected, that falls over easily, you want to be mixing it up with cars and pickups and buses and trucks? Is this what is being taught in the UK? Or is that just your interpretation?

The more you keep calling us experts, the more I'm inclined to believe that we are, simply because we seem to have more roadsense than a bona fide instructor of 30 years.

[dave_boo]

You are really losing the plot here.

We are talking about how to be safe® on Thai roads (and any other roads in the world for that matter). On a two wheeler that is unprotected, that falls over easily, you want to be mixing it up with cars and pickups and buses and trucks? Is this what is being taught in the UK? Or is that just your interpretation?

The more you keep calling us experts, the more I'm inclined to believe that we are, simply because we seem to have more roadsense than a bona fide instructor of 30 years.

Those who can do; those who can't....

[Gsxrnz]

Back to the same old arguments, No I have not got a lot of experience of riding in Bangkok. Obviously its road conditions are totally different to all other major cities in the world and all other parts of Thailand! NOT.

You experts carry on telling everyone how you are obviously the worlds best riders while the accident rate keeps going up.

This is not rocket science, you want to ride faster than everyone else in a built up area?

You are an accident waiting to happen.

Carol as you said you have no clue about riding here so better stop talking, things are different here. And you might not able to get that within your next holidays here; maybe better stay in Europe then where everything is so much better organized and more safe.

Crazy.. people that don't have experience driving here and thinking they know it all. Its impossible to compare this with Europe.. different rules apply. These holiday warriors or non full time Thai riders don't seem to realize this. That is why so many of them get killed.

Personally i prefer to be just a tad faster as other traffic and when I find a nice spot i stay there for a while untill like Dave boo said it colapses of the dynamics change. Then time to find the next good spot or drive a bit faster for a longer time. I am not talking double speed of traffic here. Just a bit.

You've got it exactly correct.

The most frightening city ride I've ever had in my life was following a friend to a place I didn't know in Pattaya. He never exceeds 30klm/h and I suspect his speedo reads a little high so in effect he's travelling at a maximum of 25klm/h, and usually slower. He's the sort of bloke that sees a car doing a U-turn 800 metres away and slows down to avoid it.

I was scared shiteless by the mayhem occurring all around us that was actually caused by him riding so slow. Baht busses passing us and then stopping that we had to go around, only to have them pass us again and do the same. Scooters undertaking us, cars/trucks/busses stealing our space and cutting us off.

I don't know how he survives. His argument is that if riding slow it won't hurt as much if he hits something. Daft!!! Eventually after being passed and cut off by the same baht bus four times in the space of 2klm I just left him and rode at my own pace and got directions later by phone.

I ride at least as fast as the majority of traffic around me, usually a tad faster. If there's a safe pocket that results in stress free riding, use it, even if it's actually a slightly slower pocket than you'd like. Look well ahead and always have an escape route.

Always have reserves of acceleration available, and this will usually mean your brakes will also give you good response. Ride at 100% (especially on a scooter) and you're a corpse looking for a coffin.

Always know what's behind you and beside you - if you brake to avoid an incident and then get munted by a following bus, it's your fault for not knowing the bus was up your jacksie and you should have gassed on or taken a different line rather than grabbing a fistful of brake.

[papa al]

Back to the same old arguments, No I have not got a lot of experience of riding in Bangkok. Obviously its road conditions are totally different to all other major cities in the world and all other parts of Thailand! NOT.

You experts carry on telling everyone how you are obviously the worlds best riders while the accident rate keeps going up.

This is not rocket science, you want to ride faster than everyone else in a built up area?

You are an accident waiting to happen.

Thank you so much for all your snarky commentary.

I notice you frequently suggest we boast of being "experts" or "worlds best riders" (obviously) but fact is the only one doing this is you.

ad 55555minum.

You eschew logical discussion if favor of unsupported dogma.

You make blanket statements that are clearly false.

On basic factual matters you get it wrong.

Maybe I'm weird but I really enjoy reading such drivel.

Please, please, keep it up.

[Shurup]

It's getting interesting. I'm out to get my popcorn.

[seedy]

One Post - and Reply Hidden

10) Do not discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific
or general policies and issues. You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email
support (at) thaivisa.com to discuss moderation policy.

[Shurup]

If some particular poster keeps rambling about, and giving advise based on her UK enormous experience (even though not mentioning the UK), how is it wrong to mention that riding in UK (or any other country for that matter) can not be compared to riding in Thailand?

As for your comment regarding not sharing our personal experiences...

[seedy]

Many Posts Edited - Some Removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting
towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be
allowed.
8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its
participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on
the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary
intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic
discussion.

[Scott]

This topic is about Faster or Slower. A number of posters have taken the opportunity to make personal remarks directed at others. Doing so is against the forum rules and it derails the topics. Continuing to do so will result in suspensions.

Feel free to discuss the topic, but not other posters.

[Carol Jadzia]

You are right, I ride in England.

Here I know I can filter through the traffic to the front of the cue and be able to pull away ahead of the traffic at the lights without having someone go through a red light in the other direction.

Here I know that 99.9% of road users have completed a basic skills test before being allowed behind the wheel.

I know that the vehicles around me must have passed a MOT to check they are roadworthy before they are allowed legally on the road.

I also know I can brake every speed limit we have in the country in first gear.

The topic is titled faster or slower. The correct answer is defensively. But unless people answer 'Faster' they get shot down. Seems maybe people don't like the truth?

You want to talk about defencive riding then fine.

Learn to walk before you try to run.

[Carol Jadzia]

You make blanket statements that are clearly false.

On basic factual matters you get it wrong.

Please provide evidence to sustain your ungrounded claims?

All statements I have made can be backed up by evidence.

[taninthai]

it doesn't matter to me if I'm on my my bike or in my car in thailand or uk, i generally don't hang around with all the other idiots on the road and prefer to be away from them,carol are you saying people don't jump red lights in the uk really come on i find just as many idiot riders/drivers on uk roads as i do thailand,driven and ridden in both countries quite a lot fully motorbike trained by instructors in the uk(don't know how i have ended covering my brakes as apparently thats not taught in the uk),and i 100% prefer riding/driving in thailand.

[Shurup]

You are right, I ride in England.

Here I know I can filter through the traffic to the front of the cue and be able to pull away ahead of the traffic at the lights without having someone go through a red light in the other direction.

Here I know that 99.9% of road users have completed a basic skills test before being allowed behind the wheel.

I know that the vehicles around me must have passed a MOT to check they are roadworthy before they are allowed legally on the road.

I also know I can brake every speed limit we have in the country in first gear.

The topic is titled faster or slower. The correct answer is defensively. But unless people answer 'Faster' they get shot down. Seems maybe people don't like the truth?

You want to talk about defencive riding then fine.

Learn to walk before you try to run.

You see, that's why your experience does not apply. We are not talking about UK, we are in Thailand.

And as this is Bikes in Thailand forum, you are going way off topic. Sorry I guess I'd have to report it to the proper TV authority.

[Carol Jadzia]

it doesn't matter to me if I'm on my my bike or in my car in thailand or uk, i generally don't hang around with all the other idiots on the road and prefer to be away from them,carol are you saying people don't jump red lights in the uk really come on i find just as many idiot riders/drivers on uk roads as i do thailand,driven and ridden in both countries quite a lot fully motorbike trained by instructors in the uk(don't know how i have ended covering my brakes as apparently thats not taught in the uk),and i 100% prefer riding/driving in thailand.

Riding while covering your brakes is considered bad practice. The reason for this is that it causes the rear brake light to come on when it should not, a common reason for a test fail when an examiner is following. It can also interfere with the correct operation of the throttle in emergency situations. It also shows poor riding standards as it is considered that if you are having to cover the brakes all the time then maybe you are not keeping a safe enough distance from the vehicle you are following? If you are riding in such a manner that you have to keep your brakes covered then you are by default at far greater risk of having an accident. There are far better, less stressful ways to ride. Whatever training school taught you to ride I would be interested to hear what justification they have for suggesting what the Police Advanced Instructors and The British Driver Vehicle Standards Agency Examiners are doing so wrong? We all have spent many years studying motorcycle riding and forming best practice. Thailand has already adopted the UK's Highway Code. With Motorcycle Accidents set to sore (More home built large bikes, relaxation of import duties, more well off Thais) how long do you think it is going to be before the Thai Government starts looking to address the situation? Any guesses who they are going to go to for advice?

Yes people do jump lights here. But only very occasionally and it's normally what we call 'Amber Gamblers' - people who cross through just as the lights are changing. But please don't start trying to compare as our safety record here is a fraction of what the accident rate is in Thailand. We are one of the safest places to ride in the world. But Bikers here fight a different fight. We fight for the right to keep riding because our nanny state would prefer to legislate us off the road with ever tighter licencing restrictions and multiple tests. For my son to be able to ride a unrestricted bike on British roads he still has to pass two more full riding tests. He has already done a basic training course and then taken an off road test and a 40 min on road pursuit test.

I am not suggesting that you should never use power to get yourself out of a situation, I totally agree. Just thats never the total answer. Riding Defensively is.

[Gweiloman]

You are right, I ride in England.

Here I know I can filter through the traffic to the front of the cue and be able to pull away ahead of the traffic at the lights without having someone go through a red light in the other direction.

Here I know that 99.9% of road users have completed a basic skills test before being allowed behind the wheel.

I know that the vehicles around me must have passed a MOT to check they are roadworthy before they are allowed legally on the road.

I also know I can brake every speed limit we have in the country in first gear.

The topic is titled faster or slower. The correct answer is defensively. But unless people answer 'Faster' they get shot down. Seems maybe people don't like the truth?

You want to talk about defencive riding then fine.

Learn to walk before you try to run.

Exactly. You ride in England where 99.9% of road users have blah blah blah and that vehicles are roadworthy blah blah blah.

You are posting comments AS IF you were riding in England (even then, I'm not so sure that your advise is correct).

But, the last time I checked, we are in Thailand. Where probably less than 50% of road users blah blah blah and probably less than 30% or vehicles are roadworthy blah blah blah and where everyone (who can) breaks (not brake - that's counter to riding fast) the speed limit, regardless of what gear they are in. Drivers change lanes without indicating and/or without looking. Taxis and buses pull over and stop as and when they like. Under such conditions, the correct answer is faster, not because it's defensive but because it's safer.

I don't see anyone being shot down other than you. But that's because you have not given any reasons for your view other than that you're an expert and it would be below your pay grade to enlighten us. Most of the posters here are in fact from western countries and presumably, qualified to western standards as well. Surely you are not another one who thinks that you are a better rider than everyone else on this forum?

[Gweiloman]

You are right, I ride in England.

Here I know I can filter through the traffic to the front of the cue and be able to pull away ahead of the traffic at the lights without having someone go through a red light in the other direction.

Here I know that 99.9% of road users have completed a basic skills test before being allowed behind the wheel.

I know that the vehicles around me must have passed a MOT to check they are roadworthy before they are allowed legally on the road.

I also know I can brake every speed limit we have in the country in first gear.

The topic is titled faster or slower. The correct answer is defensively. But unless people answer 'Faster' they get shot down. Seems maybe people don't like the truth?

You want to talk about defencive riding then fine.

Learn to walk before you try to run.

You see, that's why your experience does not apply. We are not talking about UK, we are in Thailand.

And as this is Bikes in Thailand forum, you are going way off topic. Sorry I guess I'd have to report it to the proper TV authority.

Oh yeah? I'm gonna report you for reporting posts which are the main reason why we are on this forum.

[Shurup]

...

Any guesses who they are going to go to for advice?

...

Not you I hope?

[Carol Jadzia]

Surely you are not another one who thinks that you are a better rider than everyone else on this forum?

I have many friends on this forum who live and ride in Thailand.

I repeatedly consult them on what I am doing and saying here.

The general response is that "they steer clear of such discussions as it tends to be arguments with kids and muppets".

I thought that was a bit unfair.

I like to give people a chance.

[Gweiloman]

it doesn't matter to me if I'm on my my bike or in my car in thailand or uk, i generally don't hang around with all the other idiots on the road and prefer to be away from them,carol are you saying people don't jump red lights in the uk really come on i find just as many idiot riders/drivers on uk roads as i do thailand,driven and ridden in both countries quite a lot fully motorbike trained by instructors in the uk(don't know how i have ended covering my brakes as apparently thats not taught in the uk),and i 100% prefer riding/driving in thailand.

Riding while covering your brakes is considered bad practice. The reason for this is that it causes the rear brake light to come on when it should not, a common reason for a test fail when an examiner is following. It can also interfere with the correct operation of the throttle in emergency situations. It also shows poor riding standards as it is considered that if you are having to cover the brakes all the time then maybe you are not keeping a safe enough distance from the vehicle you are following? If you are riding in such a manner that you have to keep your brakes covered then you are by default at far greater risk of having an accident. There are far better, less stressful ways to ride. Whatever training school taught you to ride I would be interested to hear what justification they have for suggesting what the Police Advanced Instructors and The British Driver Vehicle Standards Agency Examiners are doing so wrong? We all have spent many years studying motorcycle riding and forming best practice. Thailand has already adopted the UK's Highway Code. With Motorcycle Accidents set to sore (More home built large bikes, relaxation of import duties, more well off Thais) how long do you think it is going to be before the Thai Government starts looking to address the situation? Any guesses who they are going to go to for advice?

Yes people do jump lights here. But only very occasionally and it's normally what we call 'Amber Gamblers' - people who cross through just as the lights are changing. But please don't start trying to compare as our safety record here is a fraction of what the accident rate is in Thailand. We are one of the safest places to ride in the world. But Bikers here fight a different fight. We fight for the right to keep riding because our nanny state would prefer to legislate us off the road with ever tighter licencing restrictions and multiple tests. For my son to be able to ride a unrestricted bike on British roads he still has to pass two more full riding tests. He has already done a basic training course and then taken an off road test and a 40 min on road pursuit test.

I am not suggesting that you should never use power to get yourself out of a situation, I totally agree. Just thats never the total answer. Riding Defensively is.

Now you are talking. You are giving some concise reasons to your earlier assertions. This way, we can debate and discuss individual points and can walk away knowing more than what we started with. We can of course agree to disagree as well.

I disagree that covering the brakes (or at least the way I do it) will cause the rear light to come on. I am merely resting my index and middle finger on the lever. The force (which is extremely little by the way) is downward and not inwards.

The reason for covering the brakes is not because of one's riding manner but because of the behaviour of other road users including pedestrians. Do you get it? In Thailand, people do not cross the street only at zebra crossings - they are likely to get mauled down anyway. People cross the street anywhere and everywhere. Not such a big deal in resort towns but try riding down Asoke or Onnut / Lat Krabang. Unless you ride these roads on a regular basis, you are unlikely to understand why it is absolutely necessary to cover your brakes.

Adopting certain UK standards would seem to me to cause accident rates to "soar".

Moreover, and this is especially important in Thailand where you have 2 tons of pickup being driven by a TV Global moderator no less up your backside, it's always better, from the standpoint of safer and defensive riding to light up the rear brake to "tell" that tailgater behind you to back off.

[Carol Jadzia]

...

Any guesses who they are going to go to for advice?

...

Not you I hope?

All I have stated here is recorded facts straight out of the Roadcraft and Motorcycle training manuals used in the UK.

So yes, sorry, as you wrongly want to keep referring to it as my opinion - then yes ME.

[Gweiloman]

Surely you are not another one who thinks that you are a better rider than everyone else on this forum?

I have many friends on this forum who live and ride in Thailand.

I repeatedly consult them on what I am doing and saying here.

The general response is that "they steer clear of such discussions as it tends to be arguments with kids and muppets".

I thought that was a bit unfair.

I like to give people a chance.

Interesting.

Are you friends Thais? Do they ride in Bangkok?

If I felt the same as your third sentence, I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first instance.

[papa al]

So lets get this right, you are actually arguing that the safest way to travel is to be racing ahead of everybody else.

You have to be there sooner than everyone else?

Or are you saying that it's a right for all Bikers to race ahead of all car drivers?

I think you will have a lot of car drivers who think they have the right to be in front as well?

Tuk Tuk and Taxi drivers deserve to be in front because they are carrying paying customers.

Emergency vehicles want to be at the front because they are saving lives.

And at the end of the day because the junction at the end of the road is clogged up with the people who wanted to 'be in front' ten mins earlier now nobody is going anywhere fast.

There have been many studies done of this round the world, there are advanced traffic systems around major city hubs designed to speed up flow due to these facts.

"these facts"

[Carol Jadzia]

Now you are talking. You are giving some concise reasons to your earlier assertions. This way, we can debate and discuss individual points and can walk away knowing more than what we started with. We can of course agree to disagree as well.

I disagree that covering the brakes (or at least the way I do it) will cause the rear light to come on. I am merely resting my index and middle finger on the lever. The force (which is extremely little by the way) is downward and not inwards.

The reason for covering the brakes is not because of one's riding manner but because of the behaviour of other road users including pedestrians. Do you get it? In Thailand, people do not cross the street only at zebra crossings - they are likely to get mauled down anyway. People cross the street anywhere and everywhere. Not such a big deal in resort towns but try riding down Asoke or Onnut / Lat Krabang. Unless you ride these roads on a regular basis, you are unlikely to understand why it is absolutely necessary to cover your brakes.

Adopting certain UK standards would seem to me to cause accident rates to "soar".

Moreover, and this is especially important in Thailand where you have 2 tons of pickup being driven by a TV Global moderator no less up your backside, it's always better, from the standpoint of safer and defensive riding to light up the rear brake to "tell" that tailgater behind you to back off.

I have said from the start I am happy to discuss theory but I will get protective when I feel attacked.

Your argument about accident rates soaring is flawed.

You assume that the prevalence of other influences in Bangkok is somehow greater than other cities, on what facts do you base this?

The reasons you cover the brake are exactly the same as why anybody else would feel they need to ride the brakes in that situation. I know, I find it hard to not do the same too.

But 30 years of training and experience have taught me that it is not the best way to ride. How much experience have you got?

Even when riding my motorcycle through pedestrian areas at walking speeds I still will never cover my front brake as at slower speeds basic control skills dictate that I will be using my rear brake.

Leaving the front free to steer.

At higher speeds then anywhere someone rides the recommended safety advice would be to operate in a bubble. To keep around a safety gap so you are aware and have a basic level of safety distance at all times. Now if you don't want to ride like that then that's up to you.

Here we don't get a choice, we have to prove we know the information I am only passing on to you out of interest. We get tested on it.

[Carol Jadzia]

Are you friends Thais? Do they ride in Bangkok?

Yes to both. Some of them, got lots of friends.

[Gweiloman]

Now you are talking. You are giving some concise reasons to your earlier assertions. This way, we can debate and discuss individual points and can walk away knowing more than what we started with. We can of course agree to disagree as well.

I disagree that covering the brakes (or at least the way I do it) will cause the rear light to come on. I am merely resting my index and middle finger on the lever. The force (which is extremely little by the way) is downward and not inwards.

The reason for covering the brakes is not because of one's riding manner but because of the behaviour of other road users including pedestrians. Do you get it? In Thailand, people do not cross the street only at zebra crossings - they are likely to get mauled down anyway. People cross the street anywhere and everywhere. Not such a big deal in resort towns but try riding down Asoke or Onnut / Lat Krabang. Unless you ride these roads on a regular basis, you are unlikely to understand why it is absolutely necessary to cover your brakes.

Adopting certain UK standards would seem to me to cause accident rates to "soar".

Moreover, and this is especially important in Thailand where you have 2 tons of pickup being driven by a TV Global moderator no less up your backside, it's always better, from the standpoint of safer and defensive riding to light up the rear brake to "tell" that tailgater behind you to back off.

I have said from the start I am happy to discuss theory but I will get protective when I feel attacked.

Your argument about accident rates soaring is flawed.

You assume that the prevalence of other influences in Bangkok is somehow greater than other cities, on what facts do you base this?

The reasons you cover the brake are exactly the same as why anybody else would feel they need to ride the brakes in that situation. I know, I find it hard to not do the same too.

But 30 years of training and experience have taught me that it is not the best way to ride. How much experience have you got?

Even when riding my motorcycle through pedestrian areas at walking speeds I still will never cover my front brake as at slower speeds basic control skills dictate that I will be using my rear brake.

Leaving the front free to steer.

At higher speeds then anywhere someone rides the recommended safety advice would be to operate in a bubble. To keep around a safety gap so you are aware and have a basic level of safety distance at all times. Now if you don't want to ride like that then that's up to you.

Here we don't get a choice, we have to prove we know the information I am only passing on to you out of interest. We get tested on it.

You started off well, but by using the ad hominem argument, you lose all credibility once again. Simple question then. You have been riding longer than Marquez, Pedrosa, Lorenzo and many others have been alive. Do you reckon you're a better rider than any of them? See the fallacy of your argument?

But putting that aside......as I enjoy civilised debates.........

My argument about accident rates is in direct relation to your initial claim that accidents rates will "sore" (I assume you meant soar) due to more custom built bikes, relaxation of import duties and higher disposable incomes. You do realise that the majority of accidents involves scooters and step throughs don't you? None of your attributed reasons directly affect the segment of riders most prone to accidents. Whereas I base my argument on what I perceive to be an unsafe practice (in Thailand and more specifically, in the bigger cities).

Also, I don't have "facts" per se to show or prove that Bangkok is more unsafe, just experience of having lived in cities like Singapore, Melbourne, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Zurich and London to name a few. As an experienced "motorist", I am able to make certain educated deduction about the risk factors faced by motorists in these cities.

The reasons I cover my brakes are completely NOT the reason that some others ride their brakes. It is naive to even think that. The person that rides their brakes do so because they have little to no skill in assessing traffic situations. They have absolutely no idea as to what is happening around them or what can happen. Therefore, they ride their brakes as a preventative measure.

Those of us who "cover" our brakes do so because we have spotted and identified potential hazards and are preparing for those hazards to become reality, if they in fact do. Simple case in point - on a recent trip on the 323 (AH123), I was coming round a blind corner within the speed limit. In case you don't know the 323, this is a 4 laned highway from Kanchanaburi to Sangkhla Buri. Speeds in excess of 200 kph are possible on this road (due to the almost perfect road condition) though that would of course be a very silly and unsafe thing to do.

As I rounded the corner, a tanker was pulling out of a small soi on the left to cut across two lanes of oncoming traffic. Travelling at the speed that I was travelling, I could have stopped safely in time if I had all my fingers around the throttle. As it was, I was covering my brakes going round that corner and not only was I able to stop a lot sooner than in the first scenario, I didn't even need to put my foot down as I was able to release the brakes and swerve around the tanker in an exaggerated fashion.

Then comes your point about experience. I imagine that I'm more elderly than you and considering that I obtained my first licence when I was 16, I would say that I have as much if not more experience than you. Furthermore, as a large part of my life was spent in Asia, I would even venture that I'm more experienced in Asian traffic conditions than you. But like I said earlier, this argument is ad hominem.

Next, your last point about keeping a safety bubble around you. My understanding of an earlier post of yours was that we should be riding at the same speed as the flow of traffic. I find that advise inconsistent with keeping a safety bubble around you. Did I misunderstand your earlier post?

Finally... you are passing on the information that you get tested on. No one doubts that your intentions are good. No one doubts that the standards you are telling us about are good (in the context and geographical location that it relates to). I have previously been in possession of an Australian drivers and motorcyclist licence (unrestricted). I am currently in possession of a British drivers licence, a Malaysian drivers and motorcyclist licence as well as a Thai drivers and motorcyclist licence. But I would be hesitant to ride even a scooter in HCMC. They operate to a standard completely alien to Thai standards. By the same token, UK standards cannot be imposed (not in the foreseeable future anyway) on the Thai scenario. At the end of the day, one size does not fit all, contrary to what you are trying to advocate.

[Carol Jadzia]

You started off well, but by using the ad hominem argument, you lose all credibility once again. Simple question then. You have been riding longer than Marquez, Pedrosa, Lorenzo and many others have been alive. Do you reckon you're a better rider than any of them? See the fallacy of your argument?

But putting that aside......as I enjoy civilised debates.........

My argument about accident rates is in direct relation to your initial claim that accidents rates will "sore" (I assume you meant soar) due to more custom built bikes, relaxation of import duties and higher disposable incomes. You do realise that the majority of accidents involves scooters and step throughs don't you? None of your attributed reasons directly affect the segment of riders most prone to accidents. Whereas I base my argument on what I perceive to be an unsafe practice (in Thailand and more specifically, in the bigger cities).

Also, I don't have "facts" per se to show or prove that Bangkok is more unsafe, just experience of having lived in cities like Singapore, Melbourne, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Zurich and London to name a few. As an experienced "motorist", I am able to make certain educated deduction about the risk factors faced by motorists in these cities.

The reasons I cover my brakes are completely NOT the reason that some others ride their brakes. It is naive to even think that. The person that rides their brakes do so because they have little to no skill in assessing traffic situations. They have absolutely no idea as to what is happening around them or what can happen. Therefore, they ride their brakes as a preventative measure.

Those of us who "cover" our brakes do so because we have spotted and identified potential hazards and are preparing for those hazards to become reality, if they in fact do. Simple case in point - on a recent trip on the 323 (AH123), I was coming round a blind corner within the speed limit. In case you don't know the 323, this is a 4 laned highway from Kanchanaburi to Sangkhla Buri. Speeds in excess of 200 kph are possible on this road (due to the almost perfect road condition) though that would of course be a very silly and unsafe thing to do.

As I rounded the corner, a tanker was pulling out of a small soi on the left to cut across two lanes of oncoming traffic. Travelling at the speed that I was travelling, I could have stopped safely in time if I had all my fingers around the throttle. As it was, I was covering my brakes going round that corner and not only was I able to stop a lot sooner than in the first scenario, I didn't even need to put my foot down as I was able to release the brakes and swerve around the tanker in an exaggerated fashion.

Then comes your point about experience. I imagine that I'm more elderly than you and considering that I obtained my first licence when I was 16, I would say that I have as much if not more experience than you. Furthermore, as a large part of my life was spent in Asia, I would even venture that I'm more experienced in Asian traffic conditions than you. But like I said earlier, this argument is ad hominem.

Next, your last point about keeping a safety bubble around you. My understanding of an earlier post of yours was that we should be riding at the same speed as the flow of traffic. I find that advise inconsistent with keeping a safety bubble around you. Did I misunderstand your earlier post?

Finally... you are passing on the information that you get tested on. No one doubts that your intentions are good. No one doubts that the standards you are telling us about are good (in the context and geographical location that it relates to). I have previously been in possession of an Australian drivers and motorcyclist licence (unrestricted). I am currently in possession of a British drivers licence, a Malaysian drivers and motorcyclist licence as well as a Thai drivers and motorcyclist licence. But I would be hesitant to ride even a scooter in HCMC. They operate to a standard completely alien to Thai standards. By the same token, UK standards cannot be imposed (not in the foreseeable future anyway) on the Thai scenario. At the end of the day, one size does not fit all, contrary to what you are trying to advocate.

I think you will find that Marquez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo will all agree that however good they are at racing they don't know as much about road riding as British Police Roadcraft Instructors. Also they would still have to pass the same test as the rest of us to ride on British roads, that test is the one laid down by the DVSA. So as your racing drivers are all going to have to pass the same exam I think that answers the question.

Yes I do realise that most accidents are on smaller bikes at the moment, and your point is?

You state you have experience of living in various cities as your evidence yet you dismiss my 30 years as unqualified. No duel standards there then. My evidence is at least documented.

You still have given no decent reason as why you insist on covering your front brake. Silly unfoinded arguments about shorter braking distances just don't cut it, not in the real worlYou carry on riding like you do because like before you keep demonstrating that you are obviously the expert here. d. That is the excuse I would expect from someone with limited experience trying to find fault. Let me guess how long have you been riding? What about two or three years? Just enough for the stuff you are coming out with to be standard.

Everybody wishing to ride in the UK has to pass a skills test.

Where did you acquire your British licence BTW? Very interested that you say you have passed the test here yet you demonstrate a complete lack of the basic skills anyone who had completed a CBT in this country should hold. Where did you take your test? Did you take a DAS Course? An IAM or ROSPA Test? Any other skills training? City and Guilds? Advanced instructor register? 1st responder training? You keep questioning me but provide no evidence against anything I say. Just more and more petty bickering.

I am really fed up with going round in circles with someone who feels all they want to do is try and pick fault with stupid little things.

You want the answers to your continued petty questions, then why not pay for some proper formal training. Maybe you might learn why I have said what I have said.

Here is my opinion as demonstrated by the British Driver Standards Agency.

Heard of the road racer Chaz Davies

[oval]

One thing we should all remember is that the British have their heads screwed on straight, and if they've developed best practice for riding in the UK, then all of us riders here in Thailand ignore their advice at our own peril.

From now on, as I commute to and from work through the chaos of Bangkok, I'll make sure I ride at least as slow as the other vehicles, and no longer shall I cover my breaks.

Thanks Carol for enlightening me with your clear and concise reasoning, and your flowing and precise prose.

May the sun never set on the British Empire.

[MRYANG]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

[Hili]

a lot of words - just only for the riding experts here to analyze raw uncut bkk riding which should answer most points of this thread - at least for myself

Edited March 1, 2015 by Hili

[robblok]

You started off well, but by using the ad hominem argument, you lose all credibility once again. Simple question then. You have been riding longer than Marquez, Pedrosa, Lorenzo and many others have been alive. Do you reckon you're a better rider than any of them? See the fallacy of your argument?

But putting that aside......as I enjoy civilised debates.........

My argument about accident rates is in direct relation to your initial claim that accidents rates will "sore" (I assume you meant soar) due to more custom built bikes, relaxation of import duties and higher disposable incomes. You do realise that the majority of accidents involves scooters and step throughs don't you? None of your attributed reasons directly affect the segment of riders most prone to accidents. Whereas I base my argument on what I perceive to be an unsafe practice (in Thailand and more specifically, in the bigger cities).

Also, I don't have "facts" per se to show or prove that Bangkok is more unsafe, just experience of having lived in cities like Singapore, Melbourne, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Zurich and London to name a few. As an experienced "motorist", I am able to make certain educated deduction about the risk factors faced by motorists in these cities.

The reasons I cover my brakes are completely NOT the reason that some others ride their brakes. It is naive to even think that. The person that rides their brakes do so because they have little to no skill in assessing traffic situations. They have absolutely no idea as to what is happening around them or what can happen. Therefore, they ride their brakes as a preventative measure.

Those of us who "cover" our brakes do so because we have spotted and identified potential hazards and are preparing for those hazards to become reality, if they in fact do. Simple case in point - on a recent trip on the 323 (AH123), I was coming round a blind corner within the speed limit. In case you don't know the 323, this is a 4 laned highway from Kanchanaburi to Sangkhla Buri. Speeds in excess of 200 kph are possible on this road (due to the almost perfect road condition) though that would of course be a very silly and unsafe thing to do.

As I rounded the corner, a tanker was pulling out of a small soi on the left to cut across two lanes of oncoming traffic. Travelling at the speed that I was travelling, I could have stopped safely in time if I had all my fingers around the throttle. As it was, I was covering my brakes going round that corner and not only was I able to stop a lot sooner than in the first scenario, I didn't even need to put my foot down as I was able to release the brakes and swerve around the tanker in an exaggerated fashion.

Then comes your point about experience. I imagine that I'm more elderly than you and considering that I obtained my first licence when I was 16, I would say that I have as much if not more experience than you. Furthermore, as a large part of my life was spent in Asia, I would even venture that I'm more experienced in Asian traffic conditions than you. But like I said earlier, this argument is ad hominem.

Next, your last point about keeping a safety bubble around you. My understanding of an earlier post of yours was that we should be riding at the same speed as the flow of traffic. I find that advise inconsistent with keeping a safety bubble around you. Did I misunderstand your earlier post?

Finally... you are passing on the information that you get tested on. No one doubts that your intentions are good. No one doubts that the standards you are telling us about are good (in the context and geographical location that it relates to). I have previously been in possession of an Australian drivers and motorcyclist licence (unrestricted). I am currently in possession of a British drivers licence, a Malaysian drivers and motorcyclist licence as well as a Thai drivers and motorcyclist licence. But I would be hesitant to ride even a scooter in HCMC. They operate to a standard completely alien to Thai standards. By the same token, UK standards cannot be imposed (not in the foreseeable future anyway) on the Thai scenario. At the end of the day, one size does not fit all, contrary to what you are trying to advocate.

I think you will find that Marquez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo will all agree that however good they are at racing they don't know as much about road riding as British Police Roadcraft Instructors. Also they would still have to pass the same test as the rest of us to ride on British roads, that test is the one laid down by the DVSA. So as your racing drivers are all going to have to pass the same exam I think that answers the question.

Yes I do realise that most accidents are on smaller bikes at the moment, and your point is?

You state you have experience of living in various cities as your evidence yet you dismiss my 30 years as unqualified. No duel standards there then. My evidence is at least documented.

You still have given no decent reason as why you insist on covering your front brake. Silly unfoinded arguments about shorter braking distances just don't cut it, not in the real worlYou carry on riding like you do because like before you keep demonstrating that you are obviously the expert here. d. That is the excuse I would expect from someone with limited experience trying to find fault. Let me guess how long have you been riding? What about two or three years? Just enough for the stuff you are coming out with to be standard.

Everybody wishing to ride in the UK has to pass a skills test.

Where did you acquire your British licence BTW? Very interested that you say you have passed the test here yet you demonstrate a complete lack of the basic skills anyone who had completed a CBT in this country should hold. Where did you take your test? Did you take a DAS Course? An IAM or ROSPA Test? Any other skills training? City and Guilds? Advanced instructor register? 1st responder training? You keep questioning me but provide no evidence against anything I say. Just more and more petty bickering.

I am really fed up with going round in circles with someone who feels all they want to do is try and pick fault with stupid little things.

You want the answers to your continued petty questions, then why not pay for some proper formal training. Maybe you might learn why I have said what I have said.

Here is my opinion as demonstrated by the British Driver Standards Agency.

Heard of the road racer Chaz Davies

Maybe you did not read his post correctly he said you experience like his are not all important as skill does not only come from experience. Some people are naturally better at things even at less experience. Try winning a computer game from some kid you could try it for years and he would only need a few hours.

Seems reading and understanding is not your biggest skill while that is one needed to aquire knowledge. If all you have reached in life is being a motorcycle instructor that does not understand the difference between Thailand and the UK you pretty much don't rank high in my book. Not much intelligence needed for that.

What is it with you that you fail to understand that the UK and Thailand are two different places and applying all your UK rules would only land you in the hospital faster. Sure there are some basics that are the same but many things are different. How hard is it to listen to those of us that have actually experience here.

In the UK I would listen to you as your knowledge applies to that situation. Again it might be that your not as bright as you think you are. I thought that riding a bike about was anticipating traffic and if so differences in traffic would lead to difference in riding. So if cars were doing totally difference things as in the UK it would make sense to adapt to these new situation instead of stubbornly holding on to old ideas. I guess your one of these guys that would have a hard time adapting to other countries. You don't have to be ashamed about that its normal a lot of people are just not cut out to live in an other country.

Those of us that do they adapt and blend in more.. (not total assimilation). The same goes for the riding style. I would accept that you are a better rider as me but on this point your totally wrong. Here its safer to go a bit faster as traffic and stay in pockets behind cars that are safe.

It think its become a pissing match where you feel your instructor status is compromised. I do know that as a tax accountant myself that I would not try to apply Dutch tax law or Dutch accounting to English companies as the basics might be the same but there will always be differences.

Would you drive on your UK side of the road too in the rest of Europe.. or accept that sometimes you have to change your Brit biking rules ?

Edited March 1, 2015 by robblok