Capital punishment concerns raised over Thai backpackers' murder case

[JLCrab]

I know where the money is -- it's with the KT cops counting their bribe money at the coffee shop:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/787155-koh-tao-murder-trial-rescheduled/page-14#entry8877348

[thailandchilli]

Maybe the defense will call the defendants as witnesses -- who would be subject to cross-examination -- and maybe they won't.

They should call berybert as a witness since the father of Nomsod saying his son left the island on the same day of the murders is not a matter of public record.

By the way it is on public record, if you class the Bangkok Post as a public record that is. I'm sure you can Google it to find it if you want to that is.

[stephenterry]

For those wishing to reason who could be the killers, follow this advice;

Go where the money is.

Same reasoning as the prosecution. The poor migrant would killed for theft.

Strangely, wealthy people have nothing need to kill for an older iPhone.

Scenario motivation, as recorded by the RTP, is not one of theft. It certainly is not attacking and killing two persons for the sake of an I-phone. Strangely, wealthy people have the means to cover up their crimes.

rape and theft were suggested as the motive for the crime. The inability to sell the phone as the motive for its disposal, but hey... Let's ignore that the 2 Burmese defendants are charged with THEFT, rape and murder!

But hey, let's ignore that if the murder charge doesn't stick, nor the rape charge, we can always get them on theft of an I-phone. It will be interesting to hear the evidence. No doubt the defence have got it covered.

[AleG]

Maybe the defense will call the defendants as witnesses -- who would be subject to cross-examination -- and maybe they won't.

They should call berybert as a witness since the father of Nomsod saying his son left the island on the same day of the murders is not a matter of public record.

By the way it is on public record, if you class the Bangkok Post as a public record that is. I'm sure you can Google it to find it if you want to that is.

Is it? Where is he quoted, directly, as saying his son left on the same day of the murders?

To save you time, "he left earlier" doesn´t mean, "he left on the same day of the murders"

[thailandchilli]

Maybe the defense will call the defendants as witnesses -- who would be subject to cross-examination -- and maybe they won't.

They should call berybert as a witness since the father of Nomsod saying his son left the island on the same day of the murders is not a matter of public record.

By the way it is on public record, if you class the Bangkok Post as a public record that is. I'm sure you can Google it to find it if you want to that is.

Is it? Where is he quoted, directly, as saying his son left on the same day of the murders?

To save you time, "he left earlier" doesn´t mean, "he left on the same day of the murders"

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

This one I can link to, I'm sure you'll try to pick apart the statement so I'll leave you to it http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

[Keesters]

For those wishing to reason who could be the killers, follow this advice;

Go where the money is.

Same reasoning as the prosecution. The poor migrant would killed for theft.

Strangely, wealthy people have nothing need to kill for an older iPhone.

Scenario motivation, as recorded by the RTP, is not one of theft. It certainly is not attacking and killing two persons for the sake of an I-phone. Strangely, wealthy people have the means to cover up their crimes.

rape and theft were suggested as the motive for the crime. The inability to sell the phone as the motive for its disposal, but hey... Let's ignore that the 2 Burmese defendants are charged with THEFT, rape and murder!

But hey, let's ignore that if the murder charge doesn't stick, nor the rape charge, we can always get them on theft of an I-phone. It will be interesting to hear the evidence. No doubt the defence have got it covered.

Weren't they also charged with being illegal immigrants?

[AleG]

Is it? Where is he quoted, directly, as saying his son left on the same day of the murders?

To save you time, "he left earlier" doesn´t mean, "he left on the same day of the murders"

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

This one I can link to, I'm sure you'll try to pick apart the statement so I'll leave you to it http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

Nowhere in that text is the father quoted as saying that his son left on the day of the murders, in fact, he is not quoted textually at all.

Doesn't it bother you, at all, to claim to want fairness and transparency on the trial from one side of your mouth and then using innuendo and misrepresentation of facts to to the opposite from the other side?

[thailandchilli]

Is it? Where is he quoted, directly, as saying his son left on the same day of the murders?

To save you time, "he left earlier" doesn´t mean, "he left on the same day of the murders"

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

This one I can link to, I'm sure you'll try to pick apart the statement so I'll leave you to it http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

Nowhere in that text is the father quoted as saying that his son left on the day of the murders, in fact, he is not quoted textually at all.

Doesn't it bother you, at all, to claim to want fairness and transparency on the trial from one side of your mouth and then using innuendo and misrepresentation of facts to to the opposite from the other side?

I expected no less from you well done AleG

[rockingrobin]

Is it? Where is he quoted, directly, as saying his son left on the same day of the murders?

To save you time, "he left earlier" doesn´t mean, "he left on the same day of the murders"

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

This one I can link to, I'm sure you'll try to pick apart the statement so I'll leave you to it http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

Nowhere in that text is the father quoted as saying that his son left on the day of the murders, in fact, he is not quoted textually at all.

Doesn't it bother you, at all, to claim to want fairness and transparency on the trial from one side of your mouth and then using innuendo and misrepresentation of facts to to the opposite from the other side?

I expected no less from you well done AleG

Aleg

It is not innuendo or misrepresentation,

The response was to a question why his son left the island after the murders,

A more interesting point is what led the police to think that

[AleG]

Aleg

It is not innuendo or misrepresentation,

The response was to a question why his son left the island after the murders,

A more interesting point is what led the police to think that

That article is combining two things, the questions from the police and comments from the father; first "Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders" That is the police working theory, that he disappeared from the island shortly after the murders, secondly "he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said." that is the summary of the fathers answer, you don't know to which question specifically.

If you see the actual quote from the father he didn't say his son left on the same day of the murders, if I remember correctly the exact quote when asked about his son that he "had left earlier", that's it. Well, earlier than what?

Nowhere, ever, have I seen him quoted as saying "my son left on the day of the murders" or similar, this has been brought up repeatedly, every single time the person bringing it up fails to substantiate the claim.

thailanchilli wants to spin it to mean earlier the same day of the murders, but since it has been clearly proven that his son was not on the island on that day it's just smoke and mirrors.

[boomerangutang]

AleG, you're weaving more than a Washington Redskin returning a kick-off through a maze of Dallas Cowboys.

The Headman got caught telling the truth, and then had to quickly skew the answer (along with some help from people like AleG) to make it appear he didn't say what he said.

[jdinasia]

AleG, you're weaving more than a Washington Redskin returning a kick-off through a maze of Dallas Cowboys.

The Headman got caught telling the truth, and then had to quickly skew the answer (along with some help from people like AleG) to make it appear he didn't say what he said.

Well, all you need to do is prove that he had ANYTHING to do with the crime and you can collect 1 million thb.

(since the kid was at school in BKK, I think all you will accomplish with a claim like that is to face both civil and criminal charges --- but the choice is yours!)

[balo]

Aleg

It is not innuendo or misrepresentation,

The response was to a question why his son left the island after the murders,

A more interesting point is what led the police to think that

That article is combining two things, the questions from the police and comments from the father; first "Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders" That is the police working theory, that he disappeared from the island shortly after the murders, secondly "he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said." that is the summary of the fathers answer, you don't know to which question specifically.

If you see the actual quote from the father he didn't say his son left on the same day of the murders, if I remember correctly the exact quote when asked about his son that he "had left earlier", that's it. Well, earlier than what?

Nowhere, ever, have I seen him quoted as saying "my son left on the day of the murders" or similar, this has been brought up repeatedly, every single time the person bringing it up fails to substantiate the claim.

thailanchilli wants to spin it to mean earlier the same day of the murders, but since it has been clearly proven that his son was not on the island on that day it's just smoke and mirrors.

This is correct and it's hard to believe that you guys are still chasing the son. He has been cleared a long time ago.

But the conspiracy theorists in here will never give up on this.

[rockingrobin]

Aleg

It is my understanding that the father made 3 statements on the subject of his son leaving the island on three different occasions.

Your ascersion that the article is mixing up 2 different questions is in my mind incorrect , as the question is unambiguous and the reply equally so

[boomerangutang]

There is stronger proof, that the son was on the island during the time of the crime, than his father, the Headman alluding to it.

There is the CCTV footage (minutes after the crime) which the first investigative team deduced was Nomsod, and they've never officially retracted that assertion. If they did, please cite proof. That CCTV footage was why the first team was looking for Nomsod. Nomsod couldn't be found, even though he, his family and everyone he knew - knew he was wanted for questioning. To top it off, when he was caught, Nomsod didn't submit to DNA testing, and the cops didn't mind. Neither was Nomsod full-body-checked for injuries, which is from the first page of Investigation 101. It's also highly doubtful that cops checked his room (thoroughly or otherwise). The list of basic investigative items which the cops didn't do could fill a book, small font. RTP should be ashamed - even though they can fool some observers (you know who you are), they can't fool the majority who are following this seriously flawed sham of an investigation.

[draftvader]

More mass removal of off-topic conversation.

[jdinasia]

There is stronger proof, that the son was on the island during the time of the crime, than his father, the Headman alluding to it.

There is the CCTV footage (minutes after the crime) which the first investigative team deduced was Nomsod, and they've never officially retracted that assertion. If they did, please cite proof. That CCTV footage was why the first team was looking for Nomsod. Nomsod couldn't be found, even though he, his family and everyone he knew - knew he was wanted for questioning. To top it off, when he was caught, Nomsod didn't submit to DNA testing, and the cops didn't mind. Neither was Nomsod full-body-checked for injuries, which is from the first page of Investigation 101. It's also highly doubtful that cops checked his room (thoroughly or otherwise). The list of basic investigative items which the cops didn't do could fill a book, small font. RTP should be ashamed - even though they can fool some observers (you know who you are), they can't fool the majority who are following this seriously flawed sham of an investigation.

The FACTS are that you don't know why he was cleared nor what fully led to him being cleared. You don't know if his room was searched etc

School records place him in BKK. CCTV places him in BKK. There's not one person willing to testify he wasn't in BKK. Think about that, with a 1,000,000 thb reward for proof that he was connected to the crime not even one person will step forward.

The conspiracy theory that the "change of direction" of the investigation coincides with Panya being transferred is blown away by the fact that Panya announced that he was cleared on the 25th, a full week before the transfer took place.

It is important to point out that conspiracy theorists are always vocal. Most people move on but a tiny vocal minority will always scream. There are still people screaming about 911 and even the lunar landing....they talk about those events more than rational people, but they aren't the majority.

[berybert]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

[boomerangutang]

There is stronger proof, that the son was on the island during the time of the crime, than his father, the Headman alluding to it.

There is the CCTV footage (minutes after the crime) which the first investigative team deduced was Nomsod, and they've never officially retracted that assertion. If they did, please cite proof. That CCTV footage was why the first team was looking for Nomsod. Nomsod couldn't be found, even though he, his family and everyone he knew - knew he was wanted for questioning. To top it off, when he was caught, Nomsod didn't submit to DNA testing, and the cops didn't mind. Neither was Nomsod full-body-checked for injuries, which is from the first page of Investigation 101. It's also highly doubtful that cops checked his room (thoroughly or otherwise). The list of basic investigative items which the cops didn't do could fill a book, small font. RTP should be ashamed - even though they can fool some observers (you know who you are), they can't fool the majority who are following this seriously flawed sham of an investigation.

The FACTS are that you don't know why he was cleared nor what fully led to him being cleared. You don't know if his room was searched etc

bmrgtang response: As a keen observer, I'm going by what was announced by RTP, coupled with a dose of common sense and working knowledge of how Thai cops conduct their biz. One little factoid: Thai investigators don't use sniffer dogs.

School records place him in BKK. CCTV places him in BKK. There's not one person willing to testify he wasn't in BKK. Think about that, with a 1,000,000 thb reward for proof that he was connected to the crime not even one person will step forward.

bmrgtang response: First off, the Bt.1 mil. reward was hollow grandstanding, and you know that. Secondly, if a person values his/life, that person won't stand up against the mafia-like power structure on the little island.

The conspiracy theory that the "change of direction" of the investigation coincides with Panya being transferred is blown away by the fact that Panya announced that he was cleared on the 25th, a full week before the transfer took place.

bmrgtang response: The replacement head cop in Bkk outranked Panya and could have been controlling the investigation days before he self-appointed himself to the job. Anyone familiar with Thailand knows that all bureaucratic matters stem from Bkk.

[boomerangutang]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

Good points. Add that to the 505 basic things that Thai investigators probably didn't do. Or, if they did do it, and it implicated the people they're trying to shield, then that data went in the trash can.

[007cableguy]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

So jdasia what are your thoughts on the above?

[boomerangutang]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

So jdasia what are your thoughts on the above?

Why ask jdinasai? He/she can craftily refute everything that might implicate the two men who were designated the original prime suspects (and who should still be). Why is he/she so fixated on shielding the two original prime suspects? The reasons are obvious (except for possible added reasons not divulged) and have been stated numerous times already.

[stephenterry]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

Good points. Add that to the 505 basic things that Thai investigators probably didn't do. Or, if they did do it, and it implicated the people they're trying to shield, then that data went in the trash can.

And this statement:

Pol Lt Gen Panya said a second suspect, who fled the resort island to Bangkok, will likely be taken into custody soon.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

But that went out of the window when his replacement took over.

[AleG]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

Good points. Add that to the 505 basic things that Thai investigators probably didn't do. Or, if they did do it, and it implicated the people they're trying to shield, then that data went in the trash can.

And this statement:

Pol Lt Gen Panya said a second suspect, who fled the resort island to Bangkok, will likely be taken into custody soon.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

But that went out of the window when his replacement took over.

No, it went out of the window when it was proven he was not on the island before the replacement took over. As always, don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

"Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen has confirmed that they have released the two prime suspects they earlier thought to be involved directly to the murder of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, stating they don’t have enough evidence to prove their connection."

According to the conspiracy theorist that didn't happen since they say Panya's successor was the one that did that.

According to them this didn't happen either:

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

Because it happened on the 25th of September, a whole week before Panya was promoted as scheduled since before the murders.

Facts are not on your side, time to accept reality and move on.

[berybert]

If you don't have enough evidence to convict someone you get more evidence. They didn't have enough evidence to convict the Burmese. It took them months to gather enough so called evidence.

Why did they spend months going after evidence to convict the Burmese, yet gave up on the other top suspects with in a week. Despite having CCTV that they could have demanded to look at. Don't tell me CCTV is private property when it could implicate a double murder suspect.

Didn't one of the original 2 suspects have a 60% match of DNA, isn't DNA something that runs in the family ?

How can one person be a 60% match yet his son be 0%.

[rockingrobin]

Aleg

The statement you quote refers to the Father and Mon

"Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen has confirmed that they have released the two prime suspects they earlier thought to be involved directly to the murder of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, stating they don’t have enough evidence to prove their connection."

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

[Johnniey]

I wish people would just forget this whole thing. We all know who the real criminals are but there is NOTHING anyone here can do about it. The only people who can, have chosen not to and they will never change their minds.

The Burmese 2 will be released and the whole thing forgotten about. There have been umpteen cases like it in my 29 years in the Kingdom.

[AleG]

Aleg

The statement you quote refers to the Father and Mon

"Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen has confirmed that they have released the two prime suspects they earlier thought to be involved directly to the murder of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, stating they don’t have enough evidence to prove their connection."

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

You should explain that to Boomerangutang to see if he can wean off of his fixation with the "Headman's people".

[AleG]

I wish people would just forget this whole thing. We all know who the real criminals are but there is NOTHING anyone here can do about it. The only people who can, have chosen not to and they will never change their minds.

The Burmese 2 will be released and the whole thing forgotten about. There have been umpteen cases like it in my 29 years in the Kingdom.

If you know who the real killers are you can contact the defense team to offer your witness testimony.

[stephenterry]

Does this no one include the girl who said he didn't show up to class for, was it the next school day or the next school week, and his cousin who said he was with her in Bangkok while she was in Pattaya ?

These are things that need to be explained.

Good points. Add that to the 505 basic things that Thai investigators probably didn't do. Or, if they did do it, and it implicated the people they're trying to shield, then that data went in the trash can.

And this statement:

Pol Lt Gen Panya said a second suspect, who fled the resort island to Bangkok, will likely be taken into custody soon.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

But that went out of the window when his replacement took over.

No, it went out of the window when it was proven he was not on the island before the replacement took over. As always, don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

"Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen has confirmed that they have released the two prime suspects they earlier thought to be involved directly to the murder of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, stating they don’t have enough evidence to prove their connection."

According to the conspiracy theorist that didn't happen since they say Panya's successor was the one that did that.

According to them this didn't happen either:

"The police have ruled out a son of Koh Tao village headman as a suspect in the murder of two British tourists after he has evidence to prove he was not on the island at the time the murder occurred."

Because it happened on the 25th of September, a whole week before Panya was promoted as scheduled since before the murders.

Facts are not on your side, time to accept reality and move on.

All we can say is that there have been conflicting RTP reports issued all along the road. That is a fact, not the underlying evidence which has yet to be tested in court. As Berybert says, the influential people were released immediately without any attempt to prove or disprove their alibis, yet it took months to string together a case to implicate the B2 in the murders of the two victims. Clearly, at best, it's all circumstantial.

Any reasonable person with an open mind could conclude that there are too many doubts about the right persons being accused of murder. It just doesn't fit. No murder weapon, no DNA on the hoe, no case to answer in respect of David's death. If that is accepted by the court, it casts doubts on the veracity of the subsequent murder as per the RTP's re-enactment scenario.

Sorry, I just don't buy it, and I've yet to read how the B2 could have killed David without any evidence so far reported.