UN: Israeli military killed 44 Palestinians at UN shelters

[Ulysses G.]

During the testimony of Prof. Michael A. Newton at the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict he said "the law is clear that there are some authorized, perfectly valid uses of white phosphorus munitions". It is used by numerous armies, including the USA, not just Israel and it is not illegal.

[JingerBen]

During the testimony of Prof. Michael A. Newton at the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict he said "the law is clear that there are some authorized, perfectly valid uses of white phosphorus munitions". It is used by numerous armies, including the USA, not just Israel and it is not illegal.

Tell that to the families of the 551 Palestinian children killed in the Gaza Massacre.

[Ulysses G.]

Their parents elected a terrorist group to govern them. They should do some thinking about that.

[JingerBen]

Their parents elected a terrorist group to govern them. They should do some thinking about that.

Many - if not most - of the Palestinian children were in UN shelters when they were killed.

Your justification of Israeli war crimes is illogical.

[Ulysses G.]

Why do the Israel-haters have to constantly lie to make their points? Palestinian terrorists hid weapons at three U.N. schools in Gaza and fired from the schools. 44 people were killed in UN shelters and many of them were adults. There is no way that "most of the Palestinian children were in UN shelters when they were killed.".

[JockPieandBeans]

Shelling a UN shelter is a war crime.

Palestinians should claim war reparations.

So is using a UN shelter to store weapons and ammunition and use it as a firing point.

Perhaps the Israeli's should sue the @ss off the UN.

Or better still. Why don't all the mouthpieces stop with the tit for tat blame game and get the whole thing resolved in a manner that is beneficial to everyone ?

The Israeli illegal designation 'sui generis' literally places (off topic : the West Bank and) Gaza and their populations into a state of exception, outside the reach of the international humanitarian law.

In fact, there is little or no chance that there will be peace in those occupied territories.

Most Israeli war propaganda is based so that the Palestinians can't claim preemptive self-defense.

OP is a clear example that Israeli collective punishment is a war crime...

Clearly you did not understand my post. No surprise there.

Your response underlines quite clearly why you come to the conclusion that there is little or no chance of peace.

Well done. You must be so proud.

[mania]

Yeah. the Jewish people wanting political self determination realized in being the majority in a nation state in their ancestral homeland after thousands of years of persecution in the larger world, totally

That part I bold'ed in your post might be something Israel might want to reflect on

as to the reasoning behind it. I in no way claim to know the historical truth

(nor can anyone here today)but....

If their ancestors were anything like the current incarnation I would not expect

changes anytime soon.

I will also say as to not yet again be labeled anti-whatever that I would say the same for the

USA's lady liberty who has in recent decades taken to prostituting herself to the highest bidders

Typical Jew hating rhetoric we've heard so many times on this forum. I got what you just did though you tried to do it gingerly. Shame on you.

I would not bother replying to the other cheerleaders as they are hopelessly blind but your

more balanced so I will say this.....

I am sorry but I feel no shame for what I said....Secondly I do not hate any "Jews" at all.

That I hate the actions of the Israeli Government for many years.... yes I accept & agree this is true.

But I also hate the actions of many aggressive governments

For you in your own words to say "after thousands of years of persecution" & yet not consider

the possibility that there may have been some self inflicting reason for it is a bit simplistic at best.

Even today what many cheerleaders would like to reduce to Jew Hating...Antisemitism...is nothing of the sort.

But instead justified anger at actions they see as unjust,brutal,self serving,illegal period.

But it is your opinion & your welcome to it.I do not have any problem with it.

That I do not agree with it though does not cast any shame on me.

Have a good day

[Thorgal]

During the testimony of Prof. Michael A. Newton at the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict he said "the law is clear that there are some authorized, perfectly valid uses of white phosphorus munitions". It is used by numerous armies, including the USA, not just Israel and it is not illegal.

Quote from link : "For all the above reasons, and regardless of the primary motivation for the military use of airburst white phosphorus munitions, their deployment in urban environments puts the civilian population in these areas at great risk of death or injury, and the civilian objects and environment at an equal risk of destruction, damage, or contamination by a flammable and toxic substance. This risk cannot be managed nor controlled by the armed forces that deploy these munitions."

http://www.forensic-architecture.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/WP-print-report-FINAL.pdf

Whith this document you should be able to consider differently the forensic impact on civilians...with or without UN protection...

Edited May 2, 2015 by Thorgal

[Ulysses G.]

Secondly I do not hate any "Jews" at all.

Keep telling yourself that you are not an anti-Semite, but claiming that Jews are responsible for thousands of years of persecution is classic anti-Semitic speech.

Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.

― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazo

[Ulysses G.]

During the testimony of Prof. Michael A. Newton at the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict he said "the law is clear that there are some authorized, perfectly valid uses of white phosphorus munitions". It is used by numerous armies, including the USA, not just Israel and it is not illegal.

Quote from link : "For all the above reasons, and regardless of the primary motivation for the military use of airburst white phosphorus munitions, their deployment in urban environments puts the civilian population in these areas at great risk of death or injury, and the civilian objects and environment at an equal risk of destruction, damage, or contamination by a flammable and toxic substance. This risk cannot be managed nor controlled by the armed forces that deploy these munitions."

It is perfectly legal, but apparently, the IDF did not use it AT ALL in the Gaza conflict.

Despite having maintained in the past that the use of white phosphorous in urban warfare is legal, the IDF did not use it at any point during the recent Gaza war, according to an NGO.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/NGO-IDF-did-not-use-white-phosphorous-in-Operation-Protective-Edge-376545

[Thorgal]

Secondly I do not hate any "Jews" at all.

Keep telling yourself that you are not an anti-Semite, but claiming that Jews are responsible for thousands of years of persecution is classic anti-Semitic speech.

Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.

― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazo

“A hundred suspicions don't make a proof.”

― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

[Thorgal]

During the testimony of Prof. Michael A. Newton at the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict he said "the law is clear that there are some authorized, perfectly valid uses of white phosphorus munitions". It is used by numerous armies, including the USA, not just Israel and it is not illegal.

Quote from link : "For all the above reasons, and regardless of the primary motivation for the military use of airburst white phosphorus munitions, their deployment in urban environments puts the civilian population in these areas at great risk of death or injury, and the civilian objects and environment at an equal risk of destruction, damage, or contamination by a flammable and toxic substance. This risk cannot be managed nor controlled by the armed forces that deploy these munitions."

It is perfectly legal, but apparently, the IDF did not use it AT ALL in the Gaza conflict.

Despite having maintained in the past that the use of white phosphorous in urban warfare is legal, the IDF did not use it at any point during the recent Gaza war, according to an NGO.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/NGO-IDF-did-not-use-white-phosphorous-in-Operation-Protective-Edge-376545

There has been white phosphorous attacks on UN schools in Gaza.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

Yeah. the Jewish people wanting political self determination realized in being the majority in a nation state in their ancestral homeland after thousands of years of persecution in the larger world, totally

That part I bold'ed in your post might be something Israel might want to reflect on

as to the reasoning behind it. I in no way claim to know the historical truth

(nor can anyone here today)but....

If their ancestors were anything like the current incarnation I would not expect

changes anytime soon.

I will also say as to not yet again be labeled anti-whatever that I would say the same for the

USA's lady liberty who has in recent decades taken to prostituting herself to the highest bidders

Typical Jew hating rhetoric we've heard so many times on this forum. I got what you just did though you tried to do it gingerly. Shame on you.

I would not bother replying to the other cheerleaders as they are hopelessly blind but your

more balanced so I will say this.....

I am sorry but I feel no shame for what I said....Secondly I do not hate any "Jews" at all.

That I hate the actions of the Israeli Government for many years.... yes I accept & agree this is true.

But I also hate the actions of many aggressive governments

For you in your own words to say "after thousands of years of persecution" & yet not consider

the possibility that there may have been some self inflicting reason for it is a bit simplistic at best.

Even today what many cheerleaders would like to reduce to Jew Hating...Antisemitism...is nothing of the sort.

But instead justified anger at actions they see as unjust,brutal,self serving,illegal period.

But it is your opinion & your welcome to it.I do not have any problem with it.

That I do not agree with it though does not cast any shame on me.

Have a good day

Maybe I am not as "balanced" as you think.

Dude, you are trying to put lipstick on a pig here, but fooling nobody of any intelligence.

You are posting CLASSIC Jew hating rhetoric, that they are to blame for their persecution through history.

Like in the Spanish Inquisition. Like in the pogroms. Like in the Nazi death camps.

If you have no shame for pushing Jew hatred, that's your problem, but your game sickens me.

No, I know the spin game played by people pushing the hate rhetoric you propagate, criticizing Israeli government policies is not the same as anti-semitism and I have NEVER said it was.

Yes, after thousands of years, the Jewish people finally DO have nation state power and like any other people, that power is sometimes abused, and worthy of NORMAL criticism as of any other state of any other people.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Knowing this, I kindly ask you to never address me personally in future. Your choice, but I'm asking.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Jingthing

[mania]

Maybe I am not as "balanced" as you think.

Dude, you are trying to put lipstick on a pig here, but fooling nobody of any intelligence.

You are posting CLASSIC Jew hating rhetoric, that they are to blame for their persecution through history.

Like in the Spanish Inquisition. Like in the pogroms. Like in the Nazi death camps.

If you have no shame for pushing Jew hatred, that's your problem, but your game sickens me.

No, I know the spin game played by people pushing the hate rhetoric you propagate, criticizing Israeli government policies is not the same as anti-semitism and I have NEVER said it was.

Yes, after thousands of years, the Jewish people finally DO have nation state power and like any other people, that power is sometimes abused, and worthy of NORMAL criticism as of any other state of any other people.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Knowing this, I kindly ask you to never address me personally in future. Your choice, but I'm asking.

Ahhhh perhaps your right & I misjudged you.

Carry on......

But many which includes you I now see

like to twist the intention of posts that have anything negative

to say about the Israeli government.

None ever said they were to blame for

ALL that has historically occurred...but surely no less than NONE of what has occurred.

Not too mention neither you nor I nor any other has first hand knowledge of what occurred

but instead only writings of folks who have allegiance to one side or the other

That their history is so often trotted out is never ever the original post or reply but the post of the cheerleaders

sympathy card being played.

Oh heaven forbid that one would suggest that perhaps the Israeli's should also look at themselves & see if they are in fact

part of the problem will always be deemed as some form of Jew Hate ...Antisemitism etc etc ad nauseam

So History aside are we free to judge/ Have an opinion of what we see going on TODAY? YES we are thank you.

I have no problem not addressing you & will try to remember but I do reserve my right to speak/post as

I choose to any post without much concern for who posted it.

Edited May 2, 2015 by mania

[Scott]

Please stick to the topic.

[simple1]

During the testimony of Prof. Michael A. Newton at the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict he said "the law is clear that there are some authorized, perfectly valid uses of white phosphorus munitions". It is used by numerous armies, including the USA, not just Israel and it is not illegal.

Correct for specific circumstances, but not when firing into civilian areas when there was not any lawful military reason to do so.

http://www.hrw.org/fr/node/81821

[Ulysses G.]

Israel's Use Of White Phosphorus Not Illegal: Red Cross
BRADLEY S. KLAPPER 01/13/09

GENEVA — The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has
fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but
has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly
or illegally.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/IDF-white-phosphorus-use-not-illegal

[simple1]

Israel's Use Of White Phosphorus Not Illegal: Red Cross

BRADLEY S. KLAPPER 01/13/09

GENEVA — The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has

fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but

has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly

or illegally.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/IDF-white-phosphorus-use-not-illegal

In other words the research / analyst have come to differing conclusions, perhaps due to differing access to affected areas. Have the findings of the HRW people, who did collect phosphorus shell casings from the affected civilian areas, been found to be false?

"In Gaza, the Israeli military didn't just use white phosphorus in open areas as a screen for its troops," said Fred Abrahams, senior emergencies researcher at Human Rights Watch and co-author of the report. "It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren't in the area and safer smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died."

[dragonfly94]

war is not a game played with rules, start one and you are likely to get your people killed, no good whining about who did what afterwards.

[Ulysses G.]

Have the findings of the HRW people, who did collect phosphorus shell casings from the affected civilian areas, been found to be false?

According to this article, HRW's "evidence" was based entirely on innuendo and unverifiable "eyewitness" reports. I am always suspicious of HRW when the issue concerns Israel.

HRW does not name its researchers; it does not provide a detailed location of its observation, nor does it identify the photos it "analyzed" making independent verification of this "evidence" impossible. INDEED, TWO days later, the International Committee of the Red Cross, which certainly cannot be accused of a pro-Israeli bias, issued a statement that backed the IDF statements.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Human-Rights-Watch-White-phosphorous-lies

Edited May 3, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[simple1]

Have the findings of the HRW people, who did collect phosphorus shell casings from the affected civilian areas, been found to be false?

According to this article, HRW's "evidence" was based entirely on innuendo and unverifiable "eyewitness" reports. I am always suspicious of HRW when the issue concerns Israel.

HRW does not name its researchers; it does not provide a detailed location of its observation, nor does it identify the photos it "analyzed" making independent verification of this "evidence" impossible. INDEED, TWO days later, the International Committee of the Red Cross, which certainly cannot be accused of a pro-Israeli bias, issued a statement that backed the IDF statements.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Human-Rights-Watch-White-phosphorous-lies

Personally I have no doubt that the IDF has rules of engagement that are aimed at reducing civilian casualties and the majority of the IDF personnel comply. On the other side of the coin errors are made, sometimes maliciously, by military personnel, as proven over the years.

It seems some of your source material being posted is not being particularly open as the HRW report states:

Human Rights Watch researchers in Gaza immediately after hostilities ended found spent shells, canister liners, and dozens of burnt felt wedges containing white phosphorus on city streets, apartment roofs, residential courtyards, and at a United Nations school.

I suggest it would be very high risk to name the HRW contributors who are on the ground. The HRW report does provide names and roles of researchers in the acknowledgement section of the report.

http://www.hrw.org/node/81726/section/8

BTW Peter Herby, head of the Arms Unit at the International Committee of the Red Cross had claimed the IDF misrepresented their views.

Edited May 3, 2015 by simple1

[Steely Dan]

The latest utterances from the UN are very telling. First even they have to admit weapons were stored by Hamas in at least three U.N schools and fired from at least two, making Chris Gunnell out to be the liar he is. Secondly the UN admits failures in reporting on or dealing with abuses of UN facilities by UNRWA and its need for reorganization, I would say need for disbanding. Ban Ki Moon also thanked Israel for carrying out investigations into breaches of rules of engagement and for cooperating with the UN in their investigation. The Palestinians did neither, but are never criticized or held to account by those with Israel derangement syndrome.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5812/un_guilt_and_hamas_war_crimes

P.s Hamas are busy digging new tunnels, reports of underground activity are emerging from residents of Southern Israel. I wonder if any more children have died in addition to the estimated 160 who died in the previous bout of tunneling?

[Jingthing]

Exactly tiny Israel is between Iraq and a hard place. International bad pr from the notoriously biased anti-Israel UN is not exactly the top priority.

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[ggold]

The latest utterances from the UN are very telling. First even they have to admit weapons were stored by Hamas in at least three U.N schools and fired from at least two, making Chris Gunnell out to be the liar he is. Secondly the UN admits failures in reporting on or dealing with abuses of UN facilities by UNRWA and its need for reorganization, I would say need for disbanding. Ban Ki Moon also thanked Israel for carrying out investigations into breaches of rules of engagement and for cooperating with the UN in their investigation. The Palestinians did neither, but are never criticized or held to account by those with Israel derangement syndrome.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5812/un_guilt_and_hamas_war_crimes

P.s Hamas are busy digging new tunnels, reports of underground activity are emerging from residents of Southern Israel. I wonder if any more children have died in addition to the estimated 160 who died in the previous bout of tunneling?

But didn't Hamas then claim Israeli troops killed these children. Or did Hamas admit the children were forced to dig tunnels for the Terrorists?

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels

Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Tunnels

Militant group used child labor to construct underground network in Gaza

[Thorgal]

Gaza children shared the hardships and horrors of everyday life. Many children, especially orphans, distributed mail and food, relayed messages, and fought fires.

Concerning the tunnel networks. After the above-ground communications lines within the city's districts were severed, all courier supplies and evacuation traffic passed through the tunnel networks. Even so, a lot of non-combating refugees successfully evacuated to safer places. Others were not so lucky : or they died at home, or like in OP they died in protected UN facilities.

Gaza remains under siege since 2005 under Israeli occupation.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Thorgal

[JingerBen]

The latest utterances from the UN are very telling. First even they have to admit weapons were stored by Hamas in at least three U.N schools and fired from at least two, making Chris Gunnell out to be the liar he is. Secondly the UN admits failures in reporting on or dealing with abuses of UN facilities by UNRWA and its need for reorganization, I would say need for disbanding. Ban Ki Moon also thanked Israel for carrying out investigations into breaches of rules of engagement and for cooperating with the UN in their investigation. The Palestinians did neither, but are never criticized or held to account by those with Israel derangement syndrome.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5812/un_guilt_and_hamas_war_crimes

P.s Hamas are busy digging new tunnels, reports of underground activity are emerging from residents of Southern Israel. I wonder if any more children have died in addition to the estimated 160 who died in the previous bout of tunneling?

But didn't Hamas then claim Israeli troops killed these children. Or did Hamas admit the children were forced to dig tunnels for the Terrorists?

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels

Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Tunnels

Militant group used child labor to construct underground network in Gaza

These undocumented claims by the Tablet a new read on Jewish life, go back as far as 2008.

It is Zionist propaganda backed up by nothing more than a report from the Institute for Palestine Studies saying "At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials." No corroborating evidence was provided.

This accusation predates, and has absolutely nothing to do with, the Israeli war crimes that resulted in the deaths of 551 Palestinian children during the 2014 Gaza Massacre.

[Jingthing]

Oh no! A Jewish source! Can't have that! All that Jew stuff is "Zionist" propaganda. Unless it supports Israel demonization that is. Then it's special cause it's Jewish. So confused. Or is it?

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Edited May 3, 2015 by Jingthing

[JingerBen]

Oh no! A Jewish source! Can't have that! All that Jew stuff is "Zionist" propaganda. Unless it supports Israel demonization that is. Then it's special cause it's Jewish. So confused. Or is it?

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You're reverting to name calling and innuendo .

Do you have credible links to prove that the Palestinian militants are killing their own children?

Even if this is true it doesn't absolve Israel of the charge of inhuman carnage in their military operations.

[Jingthing]

Rejecting a source only because of a Jewish connection is what exactly?

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[ggold]

Oh no! A Jewish source! Can't have that! All that Jew stuff is "Zionist" propaganda. Unless it supports Israel demonization that is. Then it's special cause it's Jewish. So confused. Or is it?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You're reverting to name calling and innuendo .

Do you have credible links to prove that the Palestinian militants are killing their own children?

Even if this is true it doesn't absolve Israel of the charge of inhuman carnage in their military operations.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/07/report-at-least-160-children-died-digging-hamas-tunnels.php

The author of the paper, Nicolas Pelham accompanied a police patrol in Gaza during December 2011. He reported that “nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies.”

He also found that “at least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials.” And, as noted, this was as of the end of 2011. How many more Palestinian children have died digging tunnels for Hamas since then?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2014/07/31/if-liberal-elites-really-cared-about-gazan-children/

Hamas is responsible not only for the deaths of the children sent to dig tunnels, but also those who could have been healed and educated if the cement from Israel had been used for schools, clinics and housing rather than to create a subterranean military apparatus

Surely it is inhuman to use your own children as human shields and forcing them to dig tunnels.