Thailand Brit murder suspects 'still waiting' on evidence review

[AleG]

Judges in Thailand are political appointees, as is the much-touted head of the Thai Forensic Institute, who will remain amazingly silent on this issue. There are no juries.

In a multiple rape and murder, happening within a few minutes of each other, the rapists are guilty of the murder. DNA evidence from a rape is not trace evidence but massive, and easy to analyse. The DNA evidence is all there is in this case.

Even if the judge were remarkably unbiased and completely indifferent to the effect of his court decisions in this case on his future career, how can the defense adequately contest DNA evidence with their own experts if they are not given access to it? Their job is to raise reasonable doubt, and they are being prevented from doing it.

It seems that the Thai authorities don't care at all that refusing to let the defence examine the DNA evidence looks to international observers exactly like an attempt to pervert the course of justice. Even if you assume the evidence is watertight, the crime occurred as stated, and the defendants are guilty, this refusal looks odd. It actually points you to the conclusion that the evidence is no good, or why would they fear its examination? This is also suggested by the massive delays in trying to acquire new evidence for months after the original DNA evidence was apparently successfully analysed.

The BBC World TV news has mentioned the judge's incredible revocation of his April decision, pointing out that the original reason given for the seven month delay after the trial started in January was ostensibly to give the defence time to examine the evidence!

However without serious external political pressure this trial seems already over.

No, it's not odd, it's exactly what happens in all cases in Thailand, the evidence is presented to be examined and contested at the start of the trial, there is no discovery process in Thai trials.

[cmiuc]

bought the size of it...

PMPrut....doesnt care about foreign interests....

so this is his justice.

mention taksin.....then we have a different story...

coruption begets coruption...as the world sees

[stoffel45]

It is normal for the Police, unfortunately, to make a mess of the crime scene - not to destroy evidence - but because they don't care about it too much.

Once the Police have chosen their "suspects" - regardless if they are even possibly guilty - it is very difficult to suggest to the Police that "it could have been someone else."

One just meets a brick wall.

Defence teams are ignored for the main part. If a member of the appointed Defence team interviews witnesses they are told by the Police to stop - because ALL witnesses are Prosecution Witnesses - automatically.

Critical evidence is withheld until the Trial begins - literally in the Court room when the evidence is presented and can no longer be withheld.

Any and all defence lawyers argue that this ploy is to prevent the Defence from preparing a case.

When asked by the Court does the Defence wish to rebut this evidence and the Defence say that the Police denied them access to it - it is marked down against them and innocent people go to jail.

What I can say is that it makes the life of grossly incompetent investigating officers more comfortable.

Hopefully the close attention of the International Media and Rights Groups will help to shine a true light on this case.

If the Police have built a case to frame these suspects because 'there were people of influence to protect" or because they are just incompetent then let it be shown to the whole world - not just to save a couple of potentially innocent lives but to bring into total disrepute the normal standards of the Thai Police.

[wowfactor10]

Murders on small island its so simple to catch the guilty ones..

organize a voluntarely DNA test for anyone who was on the island during the killings..

I sure that the killers had relatives uncles brothers and aunts living there..

Any blood related family member of the killer gives a dna match

I guess they not care 4 the truth...

[jaidam]

With all this talk of ridding Thailand of corruption, I can't help but think that this is a missed opportunity to show some transparency. After all, the eyes of the world will be watching this trial, and based on how the case has been conducted so far, those eyes are coloured with skepticism and doubt. An effective, transparent judiciary should attempt to deliver fairness in legal processes and is probably the most powerful weapon against corruption. We can only hope that they get a fair trial.

Sondhi Limtrakool asserted publicly that the reason for this is that the connections in KT went right up to the NCPO. So far they have not done anything that makes Sondhi's allegations seem implausible.

Worth remembering that Sonthi L. gave a very detailed account of why the case went down the crapper so suddenly. His account is THE ONLY account that makes complete sense. The official story is just so bizarre as to be risible, making tiny circular holes(neck of female vic) and small puncture wounds on male vic with a huge heavy hoe blade, oh really!

[kiwikeith]

I'm trying to gauge what some of the officialdom-defenders will say about this, when they pipe up. They always justify everything Thai authorities do and say. I can't find any way to justify the judge's latest decision - to further delay justice, but I'm sure RTP defenders will find justifications.

I agree, I also think that the British police are part to blame here as they must have been absolutely week or brain dead.

Politics probably the answer to that.

I also think that the parents should be putting pressure on the investigation and I cant understand how they could believe that the Burmese 2 are not scapegoats.

I understand the grieving but how could any parent let innocent people take a death sentence for a crime they have not done (not yet proven to have done).

The Thai Judge decision to not release forensic evidence is an outrage and if their lawyers are any good at all they should be screaming blue murder!

I hope they are not the type of lawyers that will pretend to act and then just lie down.

It is not rocket science, I believe these boys are innocent the cctv footage alone does not look like these boys, (the one seen running away from the scene looks like the local mafias son who ran to BK)

It is a disgrace to Thai people, but then they don't give a toss about Burmese.

[NongKhaiKid]

I'm trying to gauge what some of the officialdom-defenders will say about this, when they pipe up. They always justify everything Thai authorities do and say. I can't find any way to justify the judge's latest decision - to further delay justice, but I'm sure RTP defenders will find justifications.

I agree, I also think that the British police are part to blame here as they must have been absolutely week or brain dead.

Politics probably the answer to that.

I also think that the parents should be putting pressure on the investigation and I cant understand how they could believe that the Burmese 2 are not scapegoats.

I understand the grieving but how could any parent let innocent people take a death sentence for a crime they have not done (not yet proven to have done).

The Thai Judge decision to not release forensic evidence is an outrage and if their lawyers are any good at all they should be screaming blue murder!

I hope they are not the type of lawyers that will pretend to act and then just lie down.

It is not rocket science, I believe these boys are innocent the cctv footage alone does not look like these boys, (the one seen running away from the scene looks like the local mafias son who ran to BK)

It is a disgrace to Thai people, but then they don't give a toss about Burmese.

Just how were the British police brain dead or weak ?

They were operating outside their own jurisdiction and therefore had no constabulary powers.

It was made clear from the outset they had observer status only which meant they could only see or do if the BIB agreed and I doubt they were in a rush to expose their own failings to outside scrutiny.

The police will have reported but it's not their right to make it public. Diplomacy will be involved especially if the report is in any way critical as Britain will not want to be accused of trying to influence the trial.

It's anyone guess if the report, in part or in whole, will ever be released.

[malt25]

I think that this case has so much media attention that it'll be difficult now for the accused to be denied a fair trial.

Surely, you jest !

[monkeysu]

If you're wondering about the reason why the trial judge has decided to delay the release of forensic evidence, look no further than the fact that the B2 defence team has engaged the help of Mike Moulden a UK forensics expert. Mike's already here in LOS and no doubt the prosecution werer shi33ing themselves enough to persuade the judge to make life as difficult as possible for the defence to unravel the supposedly 'perfect' investigation.

Makes you wonder why anybody let the fact that he was involved out of the bag really!

[dageurreotype]

Seems to me the police and their (business as usual murder case) have damaged the reputation of Thailand.

And now, the suspicious behavior of the prosecutors will further damage the reputation of Thailand.

I don't believe for one minute this farce is the fault of the police. For a change. The initial police captain immediately identified the suspect/s as being Thai and were being pursued in Bangkok. Very soon after that he was supplanted by 'whomsoever' wanted this covered up to protect their precious tourism. Well guess what? That's come back to bite him in the ass big time with tourism having nosedived for other reasons, leaving only busload after busload of Chinese. Karma.

[dageurreotype]

Just how were the British police brain dead or weak ?

They were operating outside their own jurisdiction and therefore had no constabulary powers.

It was made clear from the outset they had observer status only which meant they could only see or do if the BIB agreed and I doubt they were in a rush to expose their own failings to outside scrutiny.

The police will have reported but it's not their right to make it public. Diplomacy will be involved especially if the report is in any way critical as Britain will not want to be accused of trying to influence the trial.

It's anyone guess if the report, in part or in whole, will ever be released.

This is by far and away not the first time the UK has put it's 'diplomatic interests' above any seeking of justice here for murdered Britons. Kirsty Jones? Ad infinitum. In fact, it would be interesting to find out if any case had ever been followed up by the British authorities. We'd have been better off being born Chinese!

[boomerangutang]

If you're wondering about the reason why the trial judge has decided to delay the release of forensic evidence, look no further than the fact that the B2 defence team has engaged the help of Mike Moulden a UK forensics expert. Mike's already here in LOS and no doubt the prosecution werer shi33ing themselves enough to persuade the judge to make life as difficult as possible for the defence to unravel the supposedly 'perfect' investigation.

Makes you wonder why anybody let the fact that he was involved out of the bag really!

The direct involvement of a UK forensics expert (assisting the defense) offers a glimmer of hope to those of us who seek truth and justice. However, we've had our hopes dashed many times in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Moulden (or whomever else might be able to shed light on this case) is found to be 'working without a work visa' ....or some such crap. Thai officialdom has battened down the hatches with this case, and doesn't want anything or anyone to interfere with their bee-line for conviction of the scapegoats.

Less desirable, for Thai officials, would be dropped charges for the B2, but officials could handle that. What spooks Thai officials and the Headman's people most of all is if the original suspects get scrutinized again - to see whether they were involved. That won't and can't happen. The original suspects are related to the rich and powerful headman. They're off the hook, and nothing can change that. It's not like the US, for example, where a 'cold case' can be looked at, sometimes years later. This is Thailand - and besides VIP's being untouchable, there is not one official who would dare lift a finger to take a new look at a 'cold case.'

[Happy Grumpy]

There is no hope.

A panel of judges will decide their guilt, not a jury.

No matter what, absolutely no matter what, these (selected) judges are not going to massively embarrass the General etc etc by declaring him and the police work he praised, to be wrong, by judging them not guilty.

Thai judges declaring the military leader of the country to be wrong, globally, over two penniless, peasant Burmese immigrants. Must be joking.

End of story.

[AleG]

Seems to me the police and their (business as usual murder case) have damaged the reputation of Thailand.

And now, the suspicious behavior of the prosecutors will further damage the reputation of Thailand.

I don't believe for one minute this farce is the fault of the police. For a change. The initial police captain immediately identified the suspect/s as being Thai and were being pursued in Bangkok. Very soon after that he was supplanted by 'whomsoever' wanted this covered up to protect their precious tourism. Well guess what? That's come back to bite him in the ass big time with tourism having nosedived for other reasons, leaving only busload after busload of Chinese. Karma.

I can see that you have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Junta so you rather believe it's all a vast conspiracy by them to hide the truth rather than let the facts tell the story; is it too much to ask to leave politics out of the victim's family right for justice?

But just for your education "The initial police captain immediately identified the suspect/s as being Thai and were being pursued in Bangkok. Very soon after that he was supplanted by 'whomsoever'"

None of that is true, the suspects you mention were identified on the 23nd of September, (over a week after the murders and after at least 6 or 7 other suspects, Thai, Burmese and English had come and gone), he was cleared by the 25th and Panya Mamen was promoted (as scheduled since before the murders) on the 30th of September. By that time the police were already focusing on the two men now on trial which:

A- Were near the scene of the murder on the night it happened.

B- Had no alibi placing them anywhere else at the time of the murders.

C- Have already admitted of being in possesion of David Miller's phone since that night (and possibly sunglasses).

D- DNA from inside the rape victim has been matched to them,(rendering all innuendo about crime scene contamination moot). There's also DNA evidence in cigarette butts found at the crime scene, the same brand they were caught on CCTV some hours before the murders.

E- Have confessed in three different occasions of the murder, including to their own lawyer and Myanmar officials ("Kyaw Thaung, a representative of the Myanmar Association in Thailand, who attended the interview with the defendants, said, “We went to the prison [on Koh Samui] and were allowed to meet with the two freely.")

F- One of them was caught when trying to flee the island.

G- Their defense amounts to "We were drunk, we don't remember anything"; however they seem to remember that they just happened to find Miller's phone on the night of the murders (stellar civic work there not coming forward with that finding during the course of the investigation), that someone stole their clothes and guitar when they went for a swim, that they took the guitar (that was stolen?) to the bar were they worked; besides that the third man that was drinking with them didn't seem to have problems with his memory regarding the events of that night. The defense counter that saying they were tortured (specially when asking for donations), they don't go in detail over what that torture was, how did the defendants described this "torture"?: "A police officer hit the side of his (Win Zaw) face and the interpreter also hit him four times. Then police threatened to electrocute them", five hits that left no mark to one of the accused, that's what the torture allegations are, no wonder they don't go into detail, better to leave the prospective donors to use their imaginations when thinking about torture.

Oh yes, the defense also counts on the “It would have been hard to a find a more cherubic looking diminutive duet of killer rapists. But stranger things have happened,”.

This is a solid case, and the evidence as it stands now points at the two Burmese men having raped and murdered the victims, evidence that will be available at the trial to be examined and contested by the defense; the only farce here is the misinformation, ignorance, pettiness and peddling of outright lies from people that are against that scenario because it doesn't fit with their prejudices.

[seahorse]

Three male Myanmar migrant workers were held for questioning but ruled out of the probe on Tuesday afternoon, southern regional police commander Panya Maman told AFP. "They were very far from the scene... it was probably not them," he said, adding DNA samples had been collected from the men.

http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/south-east-asia/story/thailand-rules-out-myanmar-suspects-murder-2-british-tourists-201409#sthash.4C9e1SZs.dpufWhat%20the?!

[AleG]

The direct involvement of a UK forensics expert (assisting the defense) offers a glimmer of hope to those of us who seek truth and justice. However, we've had our hopes dashed many times in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Moulden (or whomever else might be able to shed light on this case) is found to be 'working without a work visa' ....or some such crap. Thai officialdom has battened down the hatches with this case, and doesn't want anything or anyone to interfere with their bee-line for conviction of the scapegoats.

Less desirable, for Thai officials, would be dropped charges for the B2, but officials could handle that. What spooks Thai officials and the Headman's people most of all is if the original suspects get scrutinized again - to see whether they were involved. That won't and can't happen. The original suspects are related to the rich and powerful headman. They're off the hook, and nothing can change that. It's not like the US, for example, where a 'cold case' can be looked at, sometimes years later. This is Thailand - and besides VIP's being untouchable, there is not one official who would dare lift a finger to take a new look at a 'cold case.'

"us who seek truth and justice"

You think if you keep telling that it becomes true? Here's how much you care about the truth (let alone justice):

"What spooks Thai officials and the Headman's people most of all is if the original suspects get scrutinized again"

Why would they be spooked to scrutinize three Burmese men?

"Police today (September 16) were questioning three Burmese men over the murder of two British tourists on Koh Tao"

“Three male Myanmar migrant workers are under police detention for investigation,” southern regional police commander Lt Gen Panya Maman said"

“We are focusing on migrant workers because of the surrounding witnesses and evidence, including the video footage,” Major General Kiattipong Khawsamang said in a public statement yesterday (Sept 16)"

Is it something special about this case or is it a hobby of yours to muck up the actual historical record of other murders and rapes by constantly peddling false information?

[jackanapes]

I have very strong doubts about this case I think these two boys are innocent and the real killers are on the loose the police should have checked up on the two foreigners who disappeared very quickly after the murder so called friends of david .

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to Drummond's site has been removed as well as the replies. Please understand Thai Visa is not employed as a tool to obtain information for Andrew Drummond nor do we use material from his web site.

Another post in violation of fair use policy has been removed as well as the replies.

[mcm991]

The direct involvement of a UK forensics expert (assisting the defense) offers a glimmer of hope to those of us who seek truth and justice. However, we've had our hopes dashed many times in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Moulden (or whomever else might be able to shed light on this case) is found to be 'working without a work visa' ....or some such crap. Thai officialdom has battened down the hatches with this case, and doesn't want anything or anyone to interfere with their bee-line for conviction of the scapegoats.

Less desirable, for Thai officials, would be dropped charges for the B2, but officials could handle that. What spooks Thai officials and the Headman's people most of all is if the original suspects get scrutinized again - to see whether they were involved. That won't and can't happen. The original suspects are related to the rich and powerful headman. They're off the hook, and nothing can change that. It's not like the US, for example, where a 'cold case' can be looked at, sometimes years later. This is Thailand - and besides VIP's being untouchable, there is not one official who would dare lift a finger to take a new look at a 'cold case.'

"us who seek truth and justice"

You think if you keep telling that it becomes true? Here's how much you care about the truth (let alone justice):

"What spooks Thai officials and the Headman's people most of all is if the original suspects get scrutinized again"

Why would they be spooked to scrutinize three Burmese men?

"Police today (September 16) were questioning three Burmese men over the murder of two British tourists on Koh Tao"

“Three male Myanmar migrant workers are under police detention for investigation,” southern regional police commander Lt Gen Panya Maman said"

“We are focusing on migrant workers because of the surrounding witnesses and evidence, including the video footage,” Major General Kiattipong Khawsamang said in a public statement yesterday (Sept 16)"

Is it something special about this case or is it a hobby of yours to muck up the actual historical record of other murders and rapes by constantly peddling false information?

AleG, you are deflecting from the issue of this thread which is that the defence has no access to the evidence in order to form a defence.

Although you pointed out that discovery is not part of the Thai fairness system ....... the fact that the judge originally granted the request only to later deny it makes a smelly situation stink even more.

Although it does seem consistant in the official determination - despite many, many doubts to find the 2 guilty.

[JonnyF]

Very disappointed to read this, but not surprised.

It just lends more weight to the theory that the evidence is weak (or non existent) and they don't want it pulled apart by independent specialists. Seems like the outcome of the trial is decided already. Sad.

[akampa]

^{Do you think the Thai authorities care what the international community says or the international press print, they will wait it out and everyone will forget and life goes on, it is not fair but then what is . sad.}

Edited June 1, 2015 by akampa

[MockingJay]

Let's face it - they'll convict and execute the two patsies and that'll be the end of it

"Amazing Thailand", "Discover Thainess" and whatever stupid slogans the TAT came up with in the past, my sphincter muscle

Edited June 1, 2015 by MockingJay

[Happy Grumpy]

The only thing that will happen, is that the panel of judges that 'decide' their guilt will tell the prosecution and police to make it seem as plausible as possible, by any means, so that their decision of guilty isn't too embarrassing for panel of judges (not a jury)

[Nobb]

If the DNA matches the rest is Bull Sh-t!

[BoristheBlade]

A quote from the BBC Web site....

The victims' families have said they are keen to see the "right people" convicted.

These are not the "right" people, and everyone knows that.

But are the Thai authorities going to take two more innocent lives?

Over to you General......

[stephenterry]

Seems like this court will find the B2 guilty if the defence are not permitted to independently test the DNA 'evidence' before the trial commences. If they are permitted at a later stage, following the disclosure by the prosecution, they could take the case to the Appeals court. Should the DNA be discredited it is possible the Appeals court would overturn the verdict. Then it's up to the prosecution to refer the case to the Supreme court for a final verdict.

All this could take years, and it would be likely the defence would run out of the funds needed to keep the case active. Doesn't look promising for either the B2 or the victims families, does it?

[Travelman868]

Judges in Thailand are political appointees, as is the much-touted head of the Thai Forensic Institute, who will remain amazingly silent on this issue. There are no juries.

In a multiple rape and murder, happening within a few minutes of each other, the rapists are guilty of the murder. DNA evidence from a rape is not trace evidence but massive, and easy to analyse. The DNA evidence is all there is in this case.

Even if the judge were remarkably unbiased and completely indifferent to the effect of his court decisions in this case on his future career, how can the defense adequately contest DNA evidence with their own experts if they are not given access to it? Their job is to raise reasonable doubt, and they are being prevented from doing it.

It seems that the Thai authorities don't care at all that refusing to let the defence examine the DNA evidence looks to international observers exactly like an attempt to pervert the course of justice. Even if you assume the evidence is watertight, the crime occurred as stated, and the defendants are guilty, this refusal looks odd. It actually points you to the conclusion that the evidence is no good, or why would they fear its examination? This is also suggested by the massive delays in trying to acquire new evidence for months after the original DNA evidence was apparently successfully analysed.

The BBC World TV news has mentioned the judge's incredible revocation of his April decision, pointing out that the original reason given for the seven month delay after the trial started in January was ostensibly to give the defence time to examine the evidence!

However without serious external political pressure this trial seems already over.

In my experience when important information is witheld then it is usually because the information is a lie.

[Ducking and]

If the poster who said that the Thai system does not allow for pre-trial discovery knows what he is talking about, and I see no reason to doubt it, the Thai judicial system has had less than a century to get fine-tuned, I cannot see the reason for this thread continuing at the present time. It is only of use to people who like to hurl insults at Thais in general and who doubt the basic goodness of the Thai people. The issue is simple, as I indicated in my last post, and these TV posters have just ignored it. Why is thoughtless abuse like this allowed on this site?

[AleG]

Judges in Thailand are political appointees, as is the much-touted head of the Thai Forensic Institute, who will remain amazingly silent on this issue. There are no juries.

In a multiple rape and murder, happening within a few minutes of each other, the rapists are guilty of the murder. DNA evidence from a rape is not trace evidence but massive, and easy to analyse. The DNA evidence is all there is in this case.

Even if the judge were remarkably unbiased and completely indifferent to the effect of his court decisions in this case on his future career, how can the defense adequately contest DNA evidence with their own experts if they are not given access to it? Their job is to raise reasonable doubt, and they are being prevented from doing it.

It seems that the Thai authorities don't care at all that refusing to let the defence examine the DNA evidence looks to international observers exactly like an attempt to pervert the course of justice. Even if you assume the evidence is watertight, the crime occurred as stated, and the defendants are guilty, this refusal looks odd. It actually points you to the conclusion that the evidence is no good, or why would they fear its examination? This is also suggested by the massive delays in trying to acquire new evidence for months after the original DNA evidence was apparently successfully analysed.

The BBC World TV news has mentioned the judge's incredible revocation of his April decision, pointing out that the original reason given for the seven month delay after the trial started in January was ostensibly to give the defence time to examine the evidence!

However without serious external political pressure this trial seems already over.

In my experience when important information is witheld then it is usually because the information is a lie.

The defense claims they have evidence that proves the men are innocent, they are withholding it...

So, why no complains about the defense withholding evidence from the prosecution?

[stephenterry]

Seems to me the police and their (business as usual murder case) have damaged the reputation of Thailand.

And now, the suspicious behavior of the prosecutors will further damage the reputation of Thailand.

I don't believe for one minute this farce is the fault of the police. For a change. The initial police captain immediately identified the suspect/s as being Thai and were being pursued in Bangkok. Very soon after that he was supplanted by 'whomsoever' wanted this covered up to protect their precious tourism. Well guess what? That's come back to bite him in the ass big time with tourism having nosedived for other reasons, leaving only busload after busload of Chinese. Karma.

I can see that you have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Junta so you rather believe it's all a vast conspiracy by them to hide the truth rather than let the facts tell the story; is it too much to ask to leave politics out of the victim's family right for justice?

But just for your education "The initial police captain immediately identified the suspect/s as being Thai and were being pursued in Bangkok. Very soon after that he was supplanted by 'whomsoever'"

None of that is true, the suspects you mention were identified on the 23nd of September, (over a week after the murders and after at least 6 or 7 other suspects, Thai, Burmese and English had come and gone), he was cleared by the 25th and Panya Mamen was promoted (as scheduled since before the murders) on the 30th of September. By that time the police were already focusing on the two men now on trial which:

A- Were near the scene of the murder on the night it happened.

B- Had no alibi placing them anywhere else at the time of the murders.

C- Have already admitted of being in possesion of David Miller's phone since that night (and possibly sunglasses).

D- DNA from inside the rape victim has been matched to them,(rendering all innuendo about crime scene contamination moot). There's also DNA evidence in cigarette butts found at the crime scene, the same brand they were caught on CCTV some hours before the murders.

E- Have confessed in three different occasions of the murder, including to their own lawyer and Myanmar officials ("Kyaw Thaung, a representative of the Myanmar Association in Thailand, who attended the interview with the defendants, said, “We went to the prison [on Koh Samui] and were allowed to meet with the two freely.")

F- One of them was caught when trying to flee the island.

G- Their defense amounts to "We were drunk, we don't remember anything"; however they seem to remember that they just happened to find Miller's phone on the night of the murders (stellar civic work there not coming forward with that finding during the course of the investigation), that someone stole their clothes and guitar when they went for a swim, that they took the guitar (that was stolen?) to the bar were they worked; besides that the third man that was drinking with them didn't seem to have problems with his memory regarding the events of that night. The defense counter that saying they were tortured (specially when asking for donations), they don't go in detail over what that torture was, how did the defendants described this "torture"?: "A police officer hit the side of his (Win Zaw) face and the interpreter also hit him four times. Then police threatened to electrocute them", five hits that left no mark to one of the accused, that's what the torture allegations are, no wonder they don't go into detail, better to leave the prospective donors to use their imaginations when thinking about torture.

Oh yes, the defense also counts on the “It would have been hard to a find a more cherubic looking diminutive duet of killer rapists. But stranger things have happened,”.

This is a solid case, and the evidence as it stands now points at the two Burmese men having raped and murdered the victims, evidence that will be available at the trial to be examined and contested by the defense; the only farce here is the misinformation, ignorance, pettiness and peddling of outright lies from people that are against that scenario because it doesn't fit with their prejudices.

I am only going to address above what is relevant in this thread i.e. the fact that the defence may not be permitted to independently test the DNA evidence before the trial starts. The point D above is what the prosecution alleges, the matching has yet to be substantiated because the defence has had no opportunity to accept or challenge its veracity.

As a general aside, if we are privy to only what's been reported by the RTP in the media, it's not a complete picture to base any conclusion as we haven't had privy to the defence's case. So the statement - this is a solid case (albeit from the RTP's perspective), and the evidence as it stands (albeit from the RTP's perspective) now points at the two Burmese men having raped and murdered the victims - is an opinion, not a fact.

And like many posters, I find the judge's changed decision does not signify that a fair trial is envisaged, despite empty words to the contrary.