NRC votes No against draft charter

[DKUNPUTAF713]

It is about time we and the sheeple have a nice day too!!!

[Wilsonandson]

Is there an another reason that elections are being delayed? Maybe the current government wants the high profile trial of Yingluck over first or could it be the recent bombing in Bangkok has brought back fears of civil war, even though it was maybe relateg to Uyghur terrorists and not red shirts.

[dageurreotype]

Nice article explaining all about the constitutions and Thailand. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34149522

particularly liked this bit about being able to stage a coup whenever they felt like it:

The chairman of the drafting committee Borwornsak Uwanno defended it as a "special tool" essential to ensure a smooth transition. It is a way to prevent future coups, he said.

[baboon]

So now what? Despite publicly stating he was for the Charter I wouldn't be surprised if this is what the PM really wanted, a furtherance of the status quo with him at the helm.

Yes, but still it is kicking the can down the road. People's patience is finite and once they feel they are simply having the p!ss taken out of them...

....................having the p!ss taken out of them... ???

A

And then what Babs ? You keep making these subtle suggestions about something happening without ever revealing what it is. Be careful what you wish for.

Sounds like the PM and his crew are going to be around for a long time ! They won't have to worry about disbanding the reds and their employers, they will have died of old age by the time elections are held !

I shall be less subtle then, Mods permitting.

It dawns on the people that once again the country is being run by a clique of self-serving Generals and their buddies who have no intention of conceding any meaningful power whatsoever to the working class and rise up in anger, like they did in 1973, 1976 and 1992. The army butcher a load of them but end up retreating temporarily after an intervention at the highest level.

Any better an answer?

[Jon Wetherall]

So now what? Despite publicly stating he was for the Charter I wouldn't be surprised if this is what the PM really wanted, a furtherance of the status quo with him at the helm.

Yes, but still it is kicking the can down the road. People's patience is finite and once they feel they are simply having the p!ss taken out of them...

....................having the p!ss taken out of them... ???

A

And then what Babs ? You keep making these subtle suggestions about something happening without ever revealing what it is. Be careful what you wish for.

Sounds like the PM and his crew are going to be around for a long time ! They won't have to worry about disbanding the reds and their employers, they will have died of old age by the time elections are held !

I shall be less subtle then, Mods permitting.

It dawns on the people that once again the country is being run by a clique of self-serving Generals and their buddies who have no intention of conceding any meaningful power whatsoever to the working class and rise up in anger, like they did in 1973, 1976 and 1992. The army butcher a load of them but end up retreating temporarily after an intervention at the highest level.

Any better an answer?

All except the last bit.

[bkkcanuck8]

In the private world - when you fail that miserably.... you are fired.... here they get to do it all over again.

[Baerboxer]

So now what? Despite publicly stating he was for the Charter I wouldn't be surprised if this is what the PM really wanted, a furtherance of the status quo with him at the helm.

Yes, but still it is kicking the can down the road. People's patience is finite and once they feel they are simply having the p!ss taken out of them...

Oh I think they've had that feeling for a while now...

Do you mean since 2011 when Yingluck pretended to be PM?

[joebrown]

This could be the result the PM wanted.

No doubt... another 2 years to "sort the country out", is what this means...

The junta would still have maintained power, given the clause legitimising their being able to step in at any time during any elected government's tenure if said government were to do anything they didn't like, thus creating for a state within a state ad infinitum. At least this way voices against this preposterous

constitution' have been raised, causing the junta to have to eliminate any such similar clause in any re-draft. Hobson's Choice.

Good point. At least now they cannot remain in power covertly and will have to be seen as what they are.

I think you'll find that whatever else in the draft constitution is amended (prior to referendum) it won't be the 'coup within a coup' section. I think I read somewhere that the PM, and presumably Suthep want this included , no matter what.

IMHO the country is faced with 2 choices, the first being to accept the new constitution for the 5 years that the 'coup wiithin a coup' section is slated to exist. PTP and it's supporters acceptance of this would be a bitter pill to swallow, with no absolute guarantee of a totally non-military government thereafter. If the military contrived constitution isn't amended to such an extent that PTP can recommend it to their supporters, the second choice might be a catastrophic situation that surpasses all previous political unrest seen in Thailand.

[jayboy]

My hunch is that the Junta is perfectly satisfied with this outcome as it keeps them in power longer and delays elections.Additionally it may feel it will be easier to sell a rigged constitution if an even more appalling one has been shot down.

[rubl]

Now imagine what would have happened if the draft constitution was rejected in a referendum.

So, back to square one. Personally I would recommend to start with the last charter (from 2007) and use all input (like attempts to modify) to strengthen the charter and make it more democratic.

Of course, being a foreigner no one will listen to my voice of reason, least of all TVF members I'm afraid.

[Srikcir]

Prayut is not out of options to still pass the draft 2015 constitution within the next 30 days. No NRC or referendum approval required.

In no order of importance:

- use the NLA to get a majority vote of approval as was done with the 1997 Constitution.

- invoke Article 44 to legalize it.

- resubmit draft to NRC with some band-aid revisions if majority approval can be guaranteed

- extend the Interim Charter indefinitely

Time is not on Prayut's side to redo the NRC and CDC process over another 6 months.

[lucky11]

This could be the result the PM wanted.

It's the vote I wanted!!

Let democracy take the back seat for longer and make sure that they have got it right this time. They need to shut out incompetent people voted in by ignorant and gullible people. Thaksin rigged it his way and look where that got us, it needs to be changed to avoid serious mistakes from being made again whether it is democratic or not. Of course, if they have an election then that is democracy, so simply make it so that they vote in the right people this time by whatever means necessary.

[rubl]

Prayut is not out of options to still pass the draft 2015 constitution within the next 30 days. No NRC or referendum approval required.

In no order of importance:

- use the NLA to get a majority vote of approval as was done with the 1997 Constitution.

- invoke Article 44 to legalize it.

- resubmit draft to NRC with some band-aid revisions if majority approval can be guaranteed

- extend the Interim Charter indefinitely

Time is not on Prayut's side to redo the NRC and CDC process over another 6 months.

Prayut also has other options. Like start allover again, ask for cooperation and actually get it, start with the 2007 charter.

Of course in the mean time the Interim charter is still in place. We can't do without a charter, now can we ?

As for time on one's side. What is more important than a charter? People here have been demanding one.

[smutcakes]

Prayut is not out of options to still pass the draft 2015 constitution within the next 30 days. No NRC or referendum approval required.

In no order of importance:

- use the NLA to get a majority vote of approval as was done with the 1997 Constitution.

- invoke Article 44 to legalize it.

- resubmit draft to NRC with some band-aid revisions if majority approval can be guaranteed

- extend the Interim Charter indefinitely

Time is not on Prayut's side to redo the NRC and CDC process over another 6 months.

Prayut also has other options. Like start allover again, ask for cooperation and actually get it, start with the 2007 charter.

Of course in the mean time the Interim charter is still in place. We can't do without a charter, now can we ?

As for time on one's side. What is more important than a charter? People here have been demanding one.

I know this is going to divert attention, but why should groups of people who don't agree or see the coup as illegitimate 'cooperate' with them?

[phoenixdoglover]

Fortunately, the NCPO Roadmap is still available.

[halloween]

So now what? Despite publicly stating he was for the Charter I wouldn't be surprised if this is what the PM really wanted, a furtherance of the status quo with him at the helm.

Yes, but still it is kicking the can down the road. People's patience is finite and once they feel they are simply having the p!ss taken out of them...

....................having the p!ss taken out of them... ???

A

And then what Babs ? You keep making these subtle suggestions about something happening without ever revealing what it is. Be careful what you wish for.

Sounds like the PM and his crew are going to be around for a long time ! They won't have to worry about disbanding the reds and their employers, they will have died of old age by the time elections are held !

I shall be less subtle then, Mods permitting.

It dawns on the people that once again the country is being run by a clique of self-serving Generals and their buddies who have no intention of conceding any meaningful power whatsoever to the working class and rise up in anger, like they did in 1973, 1976 and 1992. The army butcher a load of them but end up retreating temporarily after an intervention at the highest level.

Any better an answer?

Well it continues on the continuous red theme that "There Will Be Blood!" The trouble is that most people seem completely indifferent to the current government and the reform process, are getting on with their lives, and quietly approving of the number of formerly exempt corrupt politicians and cronies being brought to book.

BTW the old red tactic of an occasional loud bang or two best have a rethink, lest they be associated with the Erewan mess..

[NoBrainer]

This will give them more time to repair the damage caused by the last 4 or 5 governments before they let them have another go at screwing things up again.

Probably the best outcome anyway.

Seems to me that the current government has accomplished more good since they took power, than any other government in the past 20 years.

[Jon Wetherall]

Now imagine what would have happened if the draft constitution was rejected in a referendum.

So, back to square one. Personally I would recommend to start with the last charter (from 2007) and use all input (like attempts to modify) to strengthen the charter and make it more democratic.

Of course, being a foreigner no one will listen to my voice of reason, least of all TVF members I'm afraid.

You're probably right.

[smutcakes]

Now imagine what would have happened if the draft constitution was rejected in a referendum.

So, back to square one. Personally I would recommend to start with the last charter (from 2007) and use all input (like attempts to modify) to strengthen the charter and make it more democratic.

Of course, being a foreigner no one will listen to my voice of reason, least of all TVF members I'm afraid.

You're probably right.

Lol, voice of reason. I just sincerely hope Rubl has more self awareness in real life than on TVF. Such a discourse in how he perceives himself compared to what others see.

[LannaGuy]

So the Junta appointed NRC vote down the Junta appointed CDC, which wrote the constitution the Junta themselves wrote in 2007.

Seems unlikely but there are those who think it was a resounding victory for Mr P.

Not sure I quite see how...

Because he stays in power. I have always said, and posted, he cannot lose with the charter because it's Hobson's Choice as will be the next 'version'

[Lite Beer]

Two reasons cited for most NRC members to reject the draft charter

BANGKOK: -- Certain provisions in the draft charter and external factor are believed to be the main reason for most of the members of the National Reform Council to reject the draft, said Mr Seri Suwanpanont, chairman of the legal and justice reform committee of the NRC, on Sunday.

He cited the sections on the creation of the National Strategic and Reconciliation Committee or the crisis panel and the provision regarding the mixed election system for the election of House representatives.

As for the external factor, he pointed out at the widespread opposition to the draft which, he said, would lead to more conflict if the draft is allowed to go through.

“When we saw there is a ravine before us, shall we plunge into it?” asked Mr Seri, adding that rejecting the draft charter does not constitute a slap on the face of the Constitution Drafting Committee “because we have different duties to perform.”

“The CDC is like a cook preparing food for the NRC. The NRC tasted the food and it was found to be not delicious. So it was difficult for the NRC to give the CDC a pass,” Mr Seri explained.

Meanwhile Mr Paiboon Nititawan, a strong critic of the draft, reasoned that most NRC members felt that the country was still mired in deep political conflict and confronted by economic problem and should not allow the draft to go through as it would worsen the situation.

He didn’t think the crisis panel was one of the main reasons for most council members to reject the bill but because of the content of the draft in general which were unacceptable.

CDC chairman Bowornsak Uwanna told the press after the vote that he felt relieved because he would not take any more responsibility; would not have to

explain about the referendum and would not have to draft charter-related organic laws.

“Everyone just pack up and go homes separately,” he said, adding he will no longer involved in the drafting of any more constitutions.

He declined to comment when asked by reporters whether the rejection of the draft was the result of intense lobbying. However, he thanked three military officers namely Admiral Pajoon Tarmprateep, General Lertrat Rattanavanich and General Nakorn Sukpraserrt who voted for the draft.

The rest of the military officers in the NRC voted against the draft.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/two-reasons-cited-for-most-nrc-members-to-reject-the-draft-charter

-- Thai PBS 2015-09-06

[lildragon]

This could be the result the PM wanted.

It's the vote I wanted!!

Let democracy take the back seat for longer and make sure that they have got it right this time. They need to shut out incompetent people voted in by ignorant and gullible people. Thaksin rigged it his way and look where that got us, it needs to be changed to avoid serious mistakes from being made again whether it is democratic or not. Of course, if they have an election then that is democracy, so simply make it so that they vote in the right people this time by whatever means necessary.

Prey tell, who are the 'right' people? The democrats?

[lildragon]

This will give them more time to repair the damage caused by the last 4 or 5 governments before they let them have another go at screwing things up again.

Probably the best outcome anyway.

Seems to me that the current government has accomplished more good since they took power, than any other government in the past 20 years.

I keep seeing these 'best government in 20 years' nonsense posts.

Please give me a full and comprehensive list of at least 20 things they have done that have 'fixed' the country.

[rubl]

Now imagine what would have happened if the draft constitution was rejected in a referendum.

So, back to square one. Personally I would recommend to start with the last charter (from 2007) and use all input (like attempts to modify) to strengthen the charter and make it more democratic.

Of course, being a foreigner no one will listen to my voice of reason, least of all TVF members I'm afraid.

You're probably right.

Lol, voice of reason. I just sincerely hope Rubl has more self awareness in real life than on TVF. Such a discourse in how he perceives himself compared to what others see.

Interesting these personal attacks, as if that's the only thing left to kill the voice of reason.

BTW this is not about me, not about you, it's about a new charter for Thailand.

Unlike the UDD I would recommend starting with the 2007 version again and work from there.

[rubl]

"As for the external factor, he pointed out at the widespread opposition to the draft which, he said, would lead to more conflict if the draft is allowed to go through."

Sounds almost democratic, what's wrong with him. Doesn't he know the NRC has been declared a mouthpiece for a fascist junta, and a few more lovely, endearing terms.

[lucky11]

This could be the result the PM wanted.

It's the vote I wanted!!

Let democracy take the back seat for longer and make sure that they have got it right this time. They need to shut out incompetent people voted in by ignorant and gullible people. Thaksin rigged it his way and look where that got us, it needs to be changed to avoid serious mistakes from being made again whether it is democratic or not. Of course, if they have an election then that is democracy, so simply make it so that they vote in the right people this time by whatever means necessary.

Prey tell, who are the 'right' people? The democrats?

Not necessarily, simply anyone but the PTP as they are a bunch of dishonest thieves!!

[BoristheBlade]

This could be the result the PM wanted.

Everything going as planned......and acording to the BBC a rumour Elvis is departing at any moment.

[smutcakes]

Now imagine what would have happened if the draft constitution was rejected in a referendum.

So, back to square one. Personally I would recommend to start with the last charter (from 2007) and use all input (like attempts to modify) to strengthen the charter and make it more democratic.

Of course, being a foreigner no one will listen to my voice of reason, least of all TVF members I'm afraid.

You're probably right.

Lol, voice of reason. I just sincerely hope Rubl has more self awareness in real life than on TVF. Such a discourse in how he perceives himself compared to what others see.

Interesting these personal attacks, as if that's the only thing left to kill the voice of reason.

BTW this is not about me, not about you, it's about a new charter for Thailand.

Unlike the UDD I would recommend starting with the 2007 version again and work from there.

Why not start with the 1997 Constitution, one which was widely acclaimed by most persons, rather than one which was written after yet another Coup.

[rubl]

Prayut is not out of options to still pass the draft 2015 constitution within the next 30 days. No NRC or referendum approval required.

In no order of importance:

- use the NLA to get a majority vote of approval as was done with the 1997 Constitution.

- invoke Article 44 to legalize it.

- resubmit draft to NRC with some band-aid revisions if majority approval can be guaranteed

- extend the Interim Charter indefinitely

Time is not on Prayut's side to redo the NRC and CDC process over another 6 months.

Prayut also has other options. Like start allover again, ask for cooperation and actually get it, start with the 2007 charter.

Of course in the mean time the Interim charter is still in place. We can't do without a charter, now can we ?

As for time on one's side. What is more important than a charter? People here have been demanding one.

I know this is going to divert attention, but why should groups of people who don't agree or see the coup as illegitimate 'cooperate' with them?

Indeed, indeed, especially since it's so much easier to complain afterwards about the result, say 'if only we could have participated'', 'if only someone asked', 'if only someone hadn't advocated non-obstruction by non-cooperation.

[smutcakes]

Prayut is not out of options to still pass the draft 2015 constitution within the next 30 days. No NRC or referendum approval required.

In no order of importance:

- use the NLA to get a majority vote of approval as was done with the 1997 Constitution.

- invoke Article 44 to legalize it.

- resubmit draft to NRC with some band-aid revisions if majority approval can be guaranteed

- extend the Interim Charter indefinitely

Time is not on Prayut's side to redo the NRC and CDC process over another 6 months.

Prayut also has other options. Like start allover again, ask for cooperation and actually get it, start with the 2007 charter.

Of course in the mean time the Interim charter is still in place. We can't do without a charter, now can we ?

As for time on one's side. What is more important than a charter? People here have been demanding one.

I know this is going to divert attention, but why should groups of people who don't agree or see the coup as illegitimate 'cooperate' with them?

Indeed, indeed, especially since it's so much easier to complain afterwards about the result, say 'if only we could have participated'', 'if only someone asked', 'if only someone hadn't advocated non-obstruction by non-cooperation.

So no answer then?