Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[flyingdoc]

Bad, but let's wait for some real facts!

[aslimversgwm]

As I recall , the sperm in the vagina of Miss Witheridge did match the defendants .

The bone of contention here is that this has not been categorically proven using proper chain of custody. It has only been verbally stated in court by an investigating officer.

The word of a cop won't go far in this forum.

Also, the collection of samples has been criticised and no forensic pathologist was present to do it.

Has Toscano and others on a similar tack not been following this? It's the chain of custody that's in question as Rykbanlor has stated. The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with, hence the so-called B2's 'sperm' could have been planted at several stages be4 it was tested and as he also says the samples weren't collected by a forensic pathologist in the 1st place!

[thailandchilli]

Perfect example of non-event.

The police never said that DNA of the hoe to substantiate charge. Instead they declared that this hoe was washed and then manipulated by several people making impossible the exploitation.

Only DNA cigarette, the condom and especially sperm collected to inside the body of H. Witheridge correspond to those of two accused .

So needless to shake you like old flies on a fresh crap. This announcement is a blaring false news propageted by the defense that has so far no really convincing element to support 2B.

The defense so far seems preoccupied with beating around the bush in regards to the most relevant evidence and generating sensationalist headlines.

The only substantial rebuttal to the prosecution that I have seen so far is when they contested the illegal entry charges against one of the defendants by producing his passport in court.

Their alibi and account of the defendants actions on the day of the murders and after are still suspicious to say the least, they refused to contest the main DNA evidence and have so far resorted mainly to point claim that the physical evidence may be wrong without actually demonstrating so.

I disagree, the substantial rebuttals I've seen so far come directly from the prosecution witnesses who are falling over themselves in contradictions to put it polite. But this is obviously a fair trial in your eyes and we can all trust the outcome verdict by the judges, carry on the faith AleG, second day into the defense and the truth is beginning to slowly come out ha ha

[sweatalot]

I've felt this from the very beginning. This was done, not by a Thai or even a Burmese criminal. The ones involved skipped town quickly and are back in their home country.

trolling, I guess

[Rykbanlor]

As I recall , the sperm in the vagina of Miss Witheridge did match the defendants .

The bone of contention here is that this has not been categorically proven using proper chain of custody. It has only been verbally stated in court by an investigating officer.

The word of a cop won't go far in this forum.

Also, the collection of samples has been criticised and no forensic pathologist was present to do it.

Has Toscano and others on a similar tack not been following this? It's the chain of custody that's in question as Rykbanlor has stated. The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with, hence the so-called B2's 'sperm' could have been planted at several stages be4 it was tested and as he also says the samples weren't collected by a forensic pathologist in the 1st place!

Yes, all of which is glossed over or deflected by some on the forum.

[phuketandsee]

Interesting snippet from Asian Correspondent (http://asiancorrespondent.com/135411/bangkok-bombing-why-are-thai-police-still-holding-crime-reenactments/?utm_source=Asian+Correspondent+Newsletter&utm_campaign=bdc5b12c44-AC_Newsletter_11th_September_9_11_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7177427db2-bdc5b12c44-281951621)

"For criminal cases liable to over five years imprisonment, the court will not consider suspects’ testimony during police investigations, whether confessions or denials. A confession is not enough for conviction and police must provide evidence to prove that suspects committed a crime. If a suspect reverses his confession during a trial, then the re-enactment is meaningless […]"

[pgangeles]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

[ChrisY1]

Perfect example of non-event.

The police never said that DNA of the hoe to substantiate charge. Instead they declared that this hoe was washed and then manipulated by several people making impossible the exploitation.

Only DNA cigarette, the condom and especially sperm collected to inside the body of H. Witheridge correspond to those of two accused .

So needless to shake you like old flies on a fresh crap. This announcement is a blaring false news propageted by the defense that has so far no really convincing element to support 2B.

The Police claimed the Hoe had been washed and manipulated by several people???

And yet they don't question the motive of whoever did this? It obviously wasn't the B2 who did this.

IMO, if the DNA on the hoe does not match the defendents, and is quite the opposite of the RTP statement, then the validity of all DNA could well be disallowed by the court as the prosecutions evidence.....then the case would likely collapse.

[SOTIRIOS]

...welcome to Thailand...

[Dogmatix]

I remember the police pathologist saying on camera very unconvincingly that they couldn't find any DNA on the condom. So why are people now saying there was DNA on the condom and, if so, whose? The most credible theory at the time was that there were three rapists, one of whom came prepared and used a condom and the other two didn't.

Hanna's top and skirt presumably had traces of DNA that were inconsistent with the desired outcome of the case and were expediently destroyed.

There was no mention of any traces of the rapists' pubic hair that is commonly found on rape victims or of the 'blond' hair found in Hanna's hand. Presumably the same problem as the top and skirt and cleaned away before the body was sent to the UK.

There has been no attempt by the prosecution to even attempt to explain how David was killed. His blood was not found on the hoe and his wounds are utterly inconsistent with the hoe as a murder weapon. Yet the police pathologist insisted on camera that the wounds were made by a hoe without bothering to even try to explain how that could be possible.

[AleG]

Has Toscano and others on a similar tack not been following this? It's the chain of custody that's in question as Rykbanlor has stated. The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with, hence the so-called B2's 'sperm' could have been planted at several stages be4 it was tested and as he also says the samples weren't collected by a forensic pathologist in the 1st place!

"The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with"

Haven't them or is it just something people say, the often quoted "everybody knows"?

As for your theories regarding the DNA evidence it is dead simple to validate them, get documentation showing the DNA typing as used during the first days of the investigation, compare it with the DNA typing from the defendants and if it doesn't match then there's grounds to dismiss the evidence as being altered to frame the accused after their arrest.

My guess is that the defense will not do that; because while having such theories bouncing around the media (social or otherwise) may be good from a marketing point of view, they have already shown not to be interested in directly refuting the inculpatory DNA evidence.

[lucaswallachia]

So i wonder does the prosecution have any of these items still:

[captspectre]

Let them go now, it is plain as day that these two Burmese lads are just scapegoats, the sad thing is the real killers are still out there.

another great peformance by the keystone cops! do they not realize that they are the laughing stock of he free world? the face loss has been amazing!

[KunMatt]

Has Toscano and others on a similar tack not been following this? It's the chain of custody that's in question as Rykbanlor has stated. The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with, hence the so-called B2's 'sperm' could have been planted at several stages be4 it was tested and as he also says the samples weren't collected by a forensic pathologist in the 1st place!

"The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with"

Haven't them or is it just something people say, the often quoted "everybody knows"?

As for your theories regarding the DNA evidence it is dead simple to validate them, get documentation showing the DNA typing as used during the first days of the investigation, compare it with the DNA typing from the defendants and if it doesn't match then there's grounds to dismiss the evidence as being altered to frame the accused after their arrest.

My guess is that the defense will not do that; because while having such theories bouncing around the media (social or otherwise) may be good from a marketing point of view, they have already shown not to be interested in directly refuting the inculpatory DNA evidence.

So after everything that has come out during the trial are you still really of the belief that the RTP's case is solid against the B2??

So far there has been no inconvenient truths for the defense and just more and more wins for them on a daily basis. And I know you are gonna say that the defense are controlling the media and the news but the EDP (which is a local newspaper in Norfolk) has a reporter in the trial and they are reporting different things than the defense are reporting and the EDP also has nothing but good news on the side of the defense and total embarrassments for the prosecutions case on every day that the trial continues.

So what is your position now the trial is well underway and we are starting to get some facts out of it?

[spidermike007]

Of course it does not match. This will come as a surprise to very few. Wrong guys. Stooges. Stooge trial. Stooge cops. A travesty all the way around. Another boil on the face of Thailand.

[sambum]

Perfect example of non-event.

The police never said that DNA of the hoe to substantiate charge. Instead they declared that this hoe was washed and then manipulated by several people making impossible the exploitation.

Only DNA cigarette, the condom and especially sperm collected to inside the body of H. Witheridge correspond to those of two accused .

So needless to shake you like old flies on a fresh crap. This announcement is a blaring false news propageted by the defense that has so far no really convincing element to support 2B.

The defense so far seems preoccupied with beating around the bush in regards to the most relevant evidence and generating sensationalist headlines.

The only substantial rebuttal to the prosecution that I have seen so far is when they contested the illegal entry charges against one of the defendants by producing his passport in court.

Their alibi and account of the defendants actions on the day of the murders and after are still suspicious to say the least, they refused to contest the main DNA evidence and have so far resorted mainly to point claim that the physical evidence may be wrong without actually demonstrating so.

So Dr Porntip's evidence is "beating around the bush in regards to the most relevant evidence" ?

Are you deliberately posting inflammatory messages or trolling? Forum Rules:-

"9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

[Aj Mick]

Perfect example of non-event.

The police never said that DNA of the hoe to substantiate charge. Instead they declared that this hoe was washed and then manipulated by several people making impossible the exploitation.

Only DNA cigarette, the condom and especially sperm collected to inside the body of H. Witheridge correspond to those of two accused .

So needless to shake you like old flies on a fresh crap. This announcement is a blaring false news propageted by the defense that has so far no really convincing element to support 2B.

The defense so far seems preoccupied with beating around the bush in regards to the most relevant evidence and generating sensationalist headlines.

The only substantial rebuttal to the prosecution that I have seen so far is when they contested the illegal entry charges against one of the defendants by producing his passport in court.

Their alibi and account of the defendants actions on the day of the murders and after are still suspicious to say the least, they refused to contest the main DNA evidence and have so far resorted mainly to point claim that the physical evidence may be wrong without actually demonstrating so.

The prosecution, the RTP and AleG (among others), seem preoccupied with beating about the bush with regards to irrelevant evidence, and limitation of headlines.

The only substantial thing they are after achieving is to take the heat off those who should be on trial.

[Rykbanlor]

Has Toscano and others on a similar tack not been following this? It's the chain of custody that's in question as Rykbanlor has stated. The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with, hence the so-called B2's 'sperm' could have been planted at several stages be4 it was tested and as he also says the samples weren't collected by a forensic pathologist in the 1st place!

"The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with"

Haven't them or is it just something people say, the often quoted "everybody knows"?

As for your theories regarding the DNA evidence it is dead simple to validate them, get documentation showing the DNA typing as used during the first days of the investigation, compare it with the DNA typing from the defendants and if it doesn't match then there's grounds to dismiss the evidence as being altered to frame the accused after their arrest.

My guess is that the defense will not do that; because while having such theories bouncing around the media (social or otherwise) may be good from a marketing point of view, they have already shown not to be interested in directly refuting the inculpatory DNA evidence.

Your condescending tone and allusions to "marketing" on the part of the defence display the kind of disregard you obviously have for this whole trial.

[Madaussie]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

Why??

Didn't you think this was going to happen. I don't have a crystal ball but when a prosecutor sends a case back 3 times to get more evidence and they end with a pile of maybe's Losts, cant finds, didn't bothers, cant remembers, not sures, didn't think it was relevant, finished in testings, didn't have budgets for photos, wasn't trained in DNA's, Pancake seller translators, cant read Thai, cant speak Thai, didn't check cctv's, cameras not working, ermmmm I am sure theres lots more.

And your shocked.... Really?

A lot of us aren't. We aren't even surprised. In fact I bet a majority of the population of Koh Tao aren't shocked either as well as the rest of Thailand. It happens all the time.

[Madaussie]

Its easy to find if the DNA on the Hoe was the gardeners or the police man. Just test them... RTP get results very quickly...LOL 3 hours and you will get your answer...

[boomerangutang]

With so much hanging on scientific evidence, which now seems to have been discredited, this case would seem to be at a state of abandonment.

Don't take bets on it though. That Thailand has a largely dysfunctional legal system and a Police Force which treats forensic science as seriously as a Hollywood movie, then anything is possible.

....hanging on scientific evidence.... a key phrase in this case, and a way to segue to a topic which hasn't yet been mentioned: The fact that most students in Thailand don't get exposure to much science while in school, and nearly none around the home. They get truckloads of exposure to hocus pocus. Any Thai can tell you dozens of stories and taboos about ghosts/bad omens/nagas/voodoo spells/talismans/protective deities - all similar to what you'd hear in Haiti or Uganda if you went and spoke with natives. I submit that the lack of exposure to realms of science is partly to blame for why Thais are flummoxed by the science which could shed light on the investigation - and it also explains why they're so subjective about it. In other words, if the science fits their preconceived notions (and/or the person giving the science assessment is uniformed) then Thais will lap it up. If, on the other hand, if the science is contrary to social dictates or is presented by a person with scruffy clothes, then it can be dismissed. When top Thai gov't officials said placing boats in the Chao Praya facing upstream with their motors running would lessen the floods, the Thai populace took it in stride. If a scruffy hippie on Kao San road recommended building houses on higher ground, he'd be scoffed.

[Madaussie]

In fact I heard a rumour when they chose the B2 they were seen with a desk covered in migrant photos with one officer doing eeny meeny miny mo.

[Reigntax]

I don't believe it !

I believe it and most people knew this was a cockup from the beginning. If it ends up being the attempted framing of innocent persons, those involved should face the death penalty.

[ukrules]

I'm going to be very surprised if these two aren't convicted regardless of any evidence presented to the court.

[nithisa78]

You could look at the photos and see these weren't the perps. They have all to do to stay alive. Now the trail is very cold.

This is another good reason to eliminate the death penalty.

[nithisa78]

I'm going to be very surprised if these two aren't convicted regardless of any evidence presented to the court.

Good. You sound like you could use some surpizes in your life. Like getting one.

[RBOP]

It only means the DNA they were able to retrieve on the hoe doesn't match the defendants. My bet the DNA matches the gardener's DNA but that doesn't mean the gardener is the murderer either. Have they released the results of the saliva from the victims nipples yet or sperm?

[Aj Mick]

Has Toscano and others on a similar tack not been following this? It's the chain of custody that's in question as Rykbanlor has stated. The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with, hence the so-called B2's 'sperm' could have been planted at several stages be4 it was tested and as he also says the samples weren't collected by a forensic pathologist in the 1st place!

"The RTP have not been able to provide evidence that a proper chain of custody was complied with"

Haven't them or is it just something people say, the often quoted "everybody knows"?

As for your theories regarding the DNA evidence it is dead simple to validate them, get documentation showing the DNA typing as used during the first days of the investigation, compare it with the DNA typing from the defendants and if it doesn't match then there's grounds to dismiss the evidence as being altered to frame the accused after their arrest.

My guess is that the defense will not do that; because while having such theories bouncing around the media (social or otherwise) may be good from a marketing point of view, they have already shown not to be interested in directly refuting the inculpatory DNA evidence.

Your condescending tone and allusions to "marketing" on the part of the defence display the kind of disregard you obviously have for this whole trial.

Oh, AleG and his ilk, in their support of the RTP and others of high standing in the community, display a very high regard for this trial. It is the ersatz sideshow that keeps the heat off those who should be on trial.

[kannot]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

Now, run, run, run for your life, Dr. Porthip,... the mafia is gonna witch hunt you now....

She's too famous

Car crashes happen you know

[Rykbanlor]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

As good a breakdown as any as to the mistakes in this case.

Without a forensic team present during the initial crime scene cleanup it seems there could be whole series of errors in the crucial DNA sample collecting, evidence collecting and general interpretation of the crime scene which could have yielded more clues about the attackers (dominant hand of attacker as deduced from blood spatters etc)

Or, according to other posters this is probably just considered "media marketing" and I'm waiting for a deflector to come along and say something to that effect.