Enormous Shakeup Of Visa And Immigration Rules

[Eff1n2ret]

I've just returned from Thailand after my 3rd short (1-3week) visit this year. The entry stamp on this last occasion appears little different from those of previous visits. On the line where it says "Visa Class" there is an indecipherable squiggle + 30. On previous occasions that has been left blank, or had just the figure 30, or last year a bit of scribble. Seems to be at the whim of the IO. If they're adding other endorsements, either to the stamp or on the back page, they're obviously trying to identify the "visa runners". Unless they use a commonly agreed system, it won't be very effective.

They can put what they like in your passport, it doesn't belong to you

[Tolley]

The fact that they are scribbling stuff on the passport leads me to believe that if you want to circumvent the new rules you could just get a new passport.

[realthaideal]

... they're obviously trying to identify the "visa runners". Unless they use a commonly agreed system, it won't be very effective.

They can put what they like in your passport, it doesn't belong to you

Why yes, indeed, it doesn't belong to me; it belongs to the US gov't. It is for official uses which includes proper entry n exit stamps, and visas, not exactly whatever they feel like. It is not, IMHO, for marking up with temporary fixes or approaches to help them have a system that lets them track things. They have computers, they have many systems at their dispense. What I dislike there - and let's face it, I'm being a little petty - is that they muck up a pg in my passport for their own shorthand tallying technique. I just want everything to look official in there. Not all kinds of silly tallying and marks from various pens. This is not a standardized policy on their part, it's simply graffiti in my book. That's all.

[tropo]

The fact that they are scribbling stuff on the passport leads me to believe that if you want to circumvent the new rules you could just get a new passport.

Getting a new passport every 3 months might become a little tedious.

[Neeranam]

What I dislike there - and let's face it, I'm being a little petty - is that they muck up a pg in my passport for their own shorthand tallying technique.

Why yes, indeed, it doesn't belong to me; it belongs to the US gov't.

Make up your mind.

They can do what the ###### they want - accept it.

[JR Texas]

What I dislike there - and let's face it, I'm being a little petty - is that they muck up a pg in my passport for their own shorthand tallying technique.

Why yes, indeed, it doesn't belong to me; it belongs to the US gov't.

Make up your mind.

They can do what the ###### they want - accept it.

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to all posters: Just leave........get out......live in another place.....it is a big world.......there are great places out there (China is one of them). You do not need Thailand.

Leave for 6 - 12 months and spend your money in another country. And tell every person you know not to come or invest one baht in Thailand. Send them a message they might understand. If you do this, the rules and regulations will change for the better.

[tropo]

What I dislike there - and let's face it, I'm being a little petty - is that they muck up a pg in my passport for their own shorthand tallying technique.

Why yes, indeed, it doesn't belong to me; it belongs to the US gov't.

Make up your mind.

They can do what the ###### they want - accept it.

Congratulations, you were the 666 th post in this super-thread and in keeping with the image, you swore!

Edited November 17, 2006 by tropo

[tropo]

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to all posters: Just leave........get out......live in another place.....it is a big world.......there are great places out there (China is one of them). You do not need Thailand.

Leave for 6 - 12 months and spend your money in another country. And tell every person you know not to come or invest one baht in Thailand. Send them a message they might understand. If you do this, the rules and regulations will change for the better.

JR Texas, apparently the revenue from tourists is quite substantial. Here is something I found (circa 2001) to indicate the level of money we people donate to the economy. This is only for Pattaya, and these figures don't include benefits gained from expats, only tourism and they are 5 years old:

"The city’s (Pattaya) income is derived almost exclusively from tourism and, according to Tourism Authority of Thailand figures, in 2001 the resort city received a total of 3.86 million visitors staying an average of 4.33 days and spending an average of 3,016 baht (about US$75) per person per day. This contributed a total of about 32.72 billion baht (US$815 million) to the vibrant Thai economy."

[dsfbrit]

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to all posters: Just leave........get out......live in another place.....it is a big world.......there are great places out there (China is one of them). You do not need Thailand.

I have never been to China, but a friend of mine who loves Thailand has a Chinese wife and got married over there recently. He has been there now several times with his wife and I asked him why he does not try living there.

He has enough money and spare time to try most places in the World. He currently lives in the UK.

He said quite simply he does not like it at all there, it may be a 'great place', but he tells me that all the things that he and I love about Thailand are totally missing in China.

I wont start tto list all the things here, I am off out soon, but the weather for a start is awful compared to LOS.

I believe that Thailand, with all its 'problems' is still a fantastic place to live if you have enough money to be able to adapt to the visa rules changes mentioned in this thread and inevitable changes in the future.

Having read some of your other interesting and sometimes lengthy posts on various subjects and the quite substantial amount of time you spend on this forum - I have a sneeky feeling you will return here when you can as well!!

Anyway hope you have a nice day over there in China.

Edited November 17, 2006 by dsfbrit

[Steph1012]

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to all posters: Just leave........get out......live in another place.....it is a big world.......there are great places out there (China is one of them). You do not need Thailand.

Leave for 6 - 12 months and spend your money in another country. And tell every person you know not to come or invest one baht in Thailand. Send them a message they might understand. If you do this, the rules and regulations will change for the better.

JR Texas, apparently the revenue from tourists is quite substantial. Here is something I found (circa 2001) to indicate the level of money we people donate to the economy. This is only for Pattaya, and these figures don't include benefits gained from expats, only tourism and they are 5 years old:

"The city’s (Pattaya) income is derived almost exclusively from tourism and, according to Tourism Authority of Thailand figures, in 2001 the resort city received a total of 3.86 million visitors staying an average of 4.33 days and spending an average of 3,016 baht (about US$75) per person per day. This contributed a total of about 32.72 billion baht (US$815 million) to the vibrant Thai economy."

It would be interesting to see some more figures like this. Add to that, the black economy which is massive due to Thais not forming companies or paying taxes.

Whilst the moral panic brigade know the areas of Pattaya, Nana, Cowboy etc. These actual areas are almost totally dependent on the Entertainment Industry. The people on the ground accept this as its their income.

Quite why Thailand, which truly is a "Hub" of corporate entertainment and the like, want to change track when they don't do anything else nearly half as well, has aways been beyond me. It's usually face, walk tall and carry a little stick and nothing new. The country has moved so fast in recent years, that it has shocked a lot of the older generation.

Next up:

Visa shake-up.

The Ministry for milking falangs have cut back the 30 day VOA to 14 days.

An on-going 10 year study of holiday makers behaviour in Thailand found that many falangs spend as much as 25% of their holiday time relaxing, sunbathing, swimming in the sea and other "Free" activites. This time is wasted and these people should be encouraged to spend more time shopping, visiting expensive parks and paying tuk tuk drivers exhorbitant fees to go to places they don't want to go eg. gem stores, tailors shops, back street gambling dens.

Busses are also to be out of bounds to falangs as many use them to bypass the carefully prepared taxi scam system we have set up at all airports and tourist hot spots.

It's simple, said a spokesman. If they spend 5k per day for a month, they will spend 10k per day over a 15 day period A committee has been set up to ensure all falangs comply by the end of the month. "this is blatent economising and it must stop" explained the airports taxi driver commissioner.

Another committe has been set up to look at ways of saving face if this policy fails and a further "blaming the falangs" committee with a budget of 100million baht has been asigned the task of turning Thailands beaches into National Parks and charging 400 baht per visit. It's good value for money and we have already orderd 15 waste bins and a team of 30 Burmese immigrants to ensure our ten top beaches remain spotless and free of polution.

We'll get em grinned khun Jaideemaimeepanhaa Phommeegnanmakmaklao. We'll get em!

Is it me or is it a slow news day.

[Firefan]

He,he -good one Steph! Cheers!

[lopburi3]

He,he -good one Steph! Cheers!

Not so hard to imagine as 14 days was the rule 15 years ago for visa free entry.

[JR Texas]

He,he -good one Steph! Cheers!

Not so hard to imagine as 14 days was the rule 15 years ago for visa free entry.

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Tropo, DSFBRIT, and Steph1012 with most quotes removed:

To Tropo: Thanks for the info. on tourism $$$ spent in Pattaya. I think tourism is Thailand's #1 source of income. Why they would want to mess with such an important source of revenue is beyond my ability to understand.

Of course, all of the expats are not going to leave and spend their money in other places. But if they keep pushing us..........who knows what will happen. I am wondering how many expats have already left and how many are preparing to leave and how much money they are going to take with them.

I am hoping that the new govt. makes some positive visa/business rule changes in the near future.

To DSFBRIT: People have different views about China. In large part it has to do with where you live. I am in a great spot...it is very modern...and there is nothing in Thailand that I can't get here. And there are lots of things here that I can't get in Thailand. Ooops, just thought of one thing: the Thai holidays....I really missed Loy Kratong.

Also, the weather is fantastic here........cool breeze and the air is clean. Yes, there is much that I like about Thailand. And yes, I will return (I have a house there and relationships with Thais). But now I know there are other, in some cases, better places to live in this region. What will happen when other expats discover this to be true? Now, most of us are addicted to Thailand...we are acting like heroin addicts......take the pain for some perceived/real sense of pleasure.

To Steph1012: It just seems nuts....what they are doing, that is. I think, perhaps, it seems even more nuts when you are looking at it from on the outside. On this forum, I read about what people are having to do to get visas and it just seems freakin' nuts. I hope things change soon. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next two months. I am worried that things will simply get worse.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

These changes only reflect cleaning up the visa walkers ( the non compliers with Immigration regulations ) and that is well overdue IMO.

[JR Texas]

These changes only reflect cleaning up the visa walkers ( the non compliers with Immigration regulations ) and that is well overdue IMO.

JR Texas (51, USA): Reply to Dr. Pat Pong: I disagree with you. Until Thai Immigration decided to make it a problem, Thailand had no problem with people getting visa exempt stamps in their passports.

Each time these people obtained a visa exempt stamp they were checked for possible criminal behavior (4 times if you cross into Cambodia and back). They spent money in Thailand. They paid taxes when they purchased various products in Thailand. Many were supporting Thai citizens.

No, there was really no problem until they made it a problem. The changes had virtually nothing to do with crime, which was the original stated reason for the changes.

Your usage of words like "cleaning" and "overdue" tell me a lot about your thinking. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. I do not intend on getting into a debate with you.

[BlackJack]

I thought it all started as there were to many Chinese and Indian over stayers.

I thought farangs just got caught in the wide net

[JR Texas]

I thought it all started as there were to many Chinese and Indian over stayers.

I thought farangs just got caught in the wide net

JR Texas (51, USA, in China, Thaksin's best friend....NOT!): Reply to BlackJack:

They (i.e., immigration police, retired and active) had a good thing going with the old visa rules and regulations. They were making lots of money, especially off an army of border runners. 99.9 percent of those "runners" never thought of themselves as doing anything illegal. Why should they when what they were doing was being encouraged by the immigration police.

They were not criminals or anything close to being criminals. They were playing the game by the rules as they existed at that time.

Over the past six years, under Thaksin's xenophobic leadership, they raised the visa rules and regulations bar many times.........that caused many people to shift their visa status from "tourism proper" to "border runner tourist." Neither one of these categories was a problem for Thailand. Both spent money. Both paid taxes when they purchased something. Both were checked for criminal activity when they crossed the border or reported to immigration.

Now it seems the govt. is trying to create a myth that both are problems for Thailand. And, unfortunately, some foreign expats are swallowing the myth.

[CCmonster]

I was wondeirng if anyone (SunbeltAsia perhaps?) can refer me to a website that has the most up-to-date information on the visa requirement status for real tourists who really just want to travel in Thailand on the 30 day transit visa.

...coz i heard that the "90 days in 90 days out" rule was altered to... "as many 30 day visas you want as long as you spend a full day out of Thailand" each time....is this true??

[Lite Beer]

I was wondeirng if anyone (SunbeltAsia perhaps?) can refer me to a website that has the most up-to-date information on the visa requirement status for real tourists who really just want to travel in Thailand on the 30 day transit visa.

...coz i heard that the "90 days in 90 days out" rule was altered to... "as many 30 day visas you want as long as you spend a full day out of Thailand" each time....is this true??

Not true

[Bagwan]

As British Consul in Pattaya, Barry Kenyon provides pension letters under the authority of the embassy.

The "large amount of dosh" is the standard fee of 1,763ht for which a receipt is issued. The evidence required in support of the letter is the same as required by the embassy; the advantage is that you do not need to trail up to BKK and queue up at the embassy.

Barry provides a great service to Brits in Pattaya, there is certainly no deviation from UK embassy rules when it comes to pension letters, and it does Barry a dis-service to imply otherwise.

I fully agree; it was my understanding that Barry has and continues to do a 'sterling' job.

Perhaps 'Bagwan' would like to explain as to why he clearly implied otherwise... ?

I made no such implication and you have made an incorrect assumption. I have no reason to suspect that Barry Kenyon is anything less than 100% kosher. Furthermore I am not so stupid as to attempt to finagle around Thai law, even the ones that appear to be made on the fly.

Where does one contact Barry Kenyon to obtain such a letter? Does he have any sort of office or contact number in Pattaya?

Fax 038 425180 Mobile 01 7827363 *email removed as per forum rules; PM poster for email*

The impossible takes a little longer

[dr_Pat_Pong]

These changes only reflect cleaning up the visa walkers ( the non compliers with Immigration regulations ) and that is well overdue IMO.

JR Texas (51, USA): Reply to Dr. Pat Pong: I disagree with you. Until Thai Immigration decided to make it a problem, Thailand had no problem with people getting visa exempt stamps in their passports.

Each time these people obtained a visa exempt stamp they were checked for possible criminal behavior (4 times if you cross into Cambodia and back). They spent money in Thailand. They paid taxes when they purchased various products in Thailand. Many were supporting Thai citizens.

No, there was really no problem until they made it a problem. The changes had virtually nothing to do with crime, which was the original stated reason for the changes.

Your usage of words like "cleaning" and "overdue" tell me a lot about your thinking. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. I do not intend on getting into a debate with you.

Nor I with you. The non compliants have just beome compliers.

[tropo]

I was wondeirng if anyone (SunbeltAsia perhaps?) can refer me to a website that has the most up-to-date information on the visa requirement status for real tourists who really just want to travel in Thailand on the 30 day transit visa.

...coz i heard that the "90 days in 90 days out" rule was altered to... "as many 30 day visas you want as long as you spend a full day out of Thailand" each time....is this true??

Not true

This website has the most up to date information available anywhere gleaned from personal experiences of 1000's of members.

Ask specific questions and you'll get specific answers. Anything that can't be answered on here is unanswerable at this stage by anyone including the Thai Immigration officials that still don't seem to have a clue.

Edited November 18, 2006 by tropo

[bkkandrew]

I had the chance on leaving Los at the new airport on Thursday to talk at some length to the immigration official regarding the new 90-day rule. The airport was quiet and my Thai is good, so the conversation was as accurate as anyone has had thus far.

Since Oct 1, I was in Thailand for three weeks exactly, arriving a few days after the 1st. Nothing unusual was done. On re-arrival on the 6th Nov., I was "awarded" a yellow highlighter mark against the entry stamp.

The subject of my conversation was therefore centred on the meaning of this highlighting. She provided the following answers:

Why have I got the yellow mark?

"Because of the rule that says foreigners cannot stay for more than 90 days in 180".

But how does marking my passport help in this?

"Well, it doesn't, but we have been told to mark all passport entry stamps since 1st October like this".

But you haven't marked the first one after October 1st?

"I think we were told to do it after the new rules started"

But surely it will make it far too slow at immigration to count all of these marked stamps and in any case, you have got mine wrong?

"No the computer tells us if you cannot come in because you have been here too long".

But I won't have a problem if I am here less than 90 days in any 180?

"No problem, Khun Andrew"

With that, I have some pleasant small talk and on I went. It does seem that some interesting points are raised:

The marks in the passports are not really relevant, unless the office is non-computerised, or if there is some computer malfunction, or some dispute.

They are real serious about applying this new rule and it does not matter where you have entered and from where.

Jan 1st should be interesting for some/many...

[eugene777]

It's all about discretion at the embassies and borders. Everyone is NOT treated equally.

My story: 2 1/2 years with work permit and Non-imm B. Then I quit my job teaching as it doesn't pay enough money to live here. So I went to Singapore at the end of September, and I asked for a dual entry tourist VISA. They gave me a single entry; they gave my friend a single entry with the remark in his passport "This time only at Royal Thai Embassy Singapore"--they told us he can't get another Tourist VISA from Singapore after this one runs out. (As for me, who knows? no message in my passport.)

Meanwhile, another guy I know went to Penang Oct 3 and asked for triple entry. They gave him a dual entry after he complained that he needed one as he is in love with a Thai girl. But his friend, and everyone else who posted here only got a single entry. (Meanwhile he's running a bar on the beach with his thai girlfriend and he hired a farang to work evenings for him!) Nobody has a work permit where he works and lives, but he's safe??!!

Then, two days ago (nov 18) an American friend went to Singapore for a Tourist VISA as the single entry tourist VISA he got in the US ran out. They gave him another Tourist VISA (back-to-back) single entry with no remark. He has been on tourist VISAs and 30-day visa exemptions for years.

So what do I conclude: each embassy will give out VISAs based on discretion of the officer. The rules will be applied as they see fit. You MAY be able to stay on tourist VISAs if they like you. If they don't, you can't.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It is always down to the individual officer's discretion.

[keekwai]

Anything that can't be answered on here is unanswerable.

I'll delete all my other bookmarks right now

[fishhooks]

Extremely pleasant experience just 10 hours ago, obtaining a double entry Tourist Visa in Australia, with a very helpful and detailed explanation on how to apply for a Non Imm O-A Visa, which I asked about, wanting to go that path after the forth-coming trip!

[tim77]

These changes only reflect cleaning up the visa walkers ( the non compliers with Immigration regulations ) and that is well overdue IMO.

JR Texas (51, USA): Reply to Dr. Pat Pong: I disagree with you. Until Thai Immigration decided to make it a problem, Thailand had no problem with people getting visa exempt stamps in their passports.

Each time these people obtained a visa exempt stamp they were checked for possible criminal behavior (4 times if you cross into Cambodia and back). They spent money in Thailand. They paid taxes when they purchased various products in Thailand. Many were supporting Thai citizens.

No, there was really no problem until they made it a problem. The changes had virtually nothing to do with crime, which was the original stated reason for the changes.

Your usage of words like "cleaning" and "overdue" tell me a lot about your thinking. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. I do not intend on getting into a debate with you.

JR . . . I very strongly agree with you. Even concepts such as "non-compilers" and "tip toeing" around the law are just plain silly. How can a person who shows up at a valid immigration check point, at noon, in a big bus, who twice walks up to a valid immigration official and presents his passport with his photograph on it - all in compliance with the law - be a "non-compiler" or "tip toeing"

The sad fact is that the application and the definition of the applicable law can not be relied on. There are no more 3 million baht investment visas because, allegedly, it is too easy for mafia influences to get a 3 million baht investment visa. A few Thai Embassies in some neighboring countries are clearly insulting or intimidating people who apply for tourist visas. The financial requirements for both retirement and marriage are changing. The 30 day visa exemption process (apparently made in 1979) has gone through so many clarifications and changes since mid-September that it is mind numbing.

And good luck to those who have bought houses using the corporate scheme that has been used for at least 15 years. Now all the Thai shareholdings in these companies may be subject to scrutiny. Oh yes, if the land is under 1 rai, the scrutiny will not be too strict for now. It is not even possible to guess if or when this scrutiny level will change. Then all of these compilers will become non-compilers, who should have know better.

I have just rented a home in another country. Sure I may come back for a visit. The truth is I like Thai people and I like Thailand, but I can not rely on the law here.

Edited November 20, 2006 by tim77

[BlackJack]

THIS IS A FAIRLY GENERAL STATEMENT

So dont flame me

but have a look around and 95% of the time no one really cares.

I am thinking of making a t-shirt for sale that simply says " whats in it for me"

If you keep this logic then you can navigate Thailand with ease

All this talk, huff and puff - just wait till Toxsins back with his famous counter coup

all will change again

[Maestro]

Then, two days ago (nov 18) an American friend went to Singapore for a Tourist VISA as the single entry tourist VISA he got in the US ran out. They gave him another Tourist VISA (back-to-back) single entry with no remark. He has been on tourist VISAs and 30-day visa exemptions for years.

It looks like we need to add Singapore to the list of countries where a “tourist” who has lived in Thailand for many years risks to get a single-entry tourist visa only, possibly with the addition of the stamp “this time in Singapore only”.

The signs are on the wall, the trend is becoming increasingly clear: consulates are looking at the history of Thai stamps in the applicant’s passport to see whether he is a genuine tourist in their eyes.

---------------

Maestro