Thailand aims to lower road fatality rates by 80%

[zyphodb]

Lower by 80%?

What are they going to do? ban cars in Thailand???

[wicketkeeper]

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) in the UK has dozens of extremely useful info-mercials concerning the various skills and safe practices of driving. For example - how to join and leave a motorway, signalling, use of lights, reversing, parking, and so on, for cars and motorbikes. Since both Thailand and the UK drive on the left they would be perfect for immediate use and cost little, if anything at all. I would be happy to investigate further should a corporate sponsor such as an oil company or motor manufacturer, or the Government be interested in reducing the death rate and improving driver skills on Thailand's roads.

[lvr181]

All of us farang (?) posters know the answers BUT the Thai authorities are not going to read or take note of our comments!

However, TV provides a forum for us to get these "grievances" off our chests when in reality most do doubt that anything meaningful and ongoing will happen (based on history), sadly.

"All of us farang (?) posters know the answers: - I'd say that the posts on this thread would indicate quite the opposite - just like the Thai authorities their ideas on Road safety are based purely on perception, assumption and a large dash of confirmation bias.

i.e. it becomes a litany of descriptions of anecdotes that simply confirm the posters preconceptions about road safety in Thailand - or rather "driving" as they see it.

.........the plural of anecdote is not data

Criticism is good if it is constructive and your workable solution is??

[Kaalle]

Zero tolerance and harsh punishments such as immediate impounding for speeding. A special force dedicated to road rule enforcement would pay for itself.

In conjunction with that, instead of several hours of "culture" at every school, a couple of hours of driving home the road safety message would be a good start.

Then tackle the karma/bad luck myth. Get all the wats to preach road safety and dispel the "If my karma is good, I can speed through a stop sign" myth. This sermon does not have to run counter to the normal teachings if it is seen as "Don't tempt fate".

THEN, of course, have a serious crackdown on unlisenced drivers, and a serious approach to new licenses with a comprehensive test on road rules.

In my city, it seems as if 90% of drivers do not know what a stop sign is for. As a result, the through traffic stops out of caution, because nobody stops for the stop sign!

Which would in turn require a police force which isn't a corrupt mafia.

Like building a house and starting with the wallpaper before the walls are up.

[steve73]

Given sufficient time "Darwinism" will eventually lead to safer overall driving standards and a subsequent reduction of deaths.....!

[Artisi]

All of us farang (?) posters know the answers BUT the Thai authorities are not going to read or take note of our comments!

However, TV provides a forum for us to get these "grievances" off our chests when in reality most do doubt that anything meaningful and ongoing will happen (based on history), sadly.

"All of us farang (?) posters know the answers: - I'd say that the posts on this thread would indicate quite the opposite - just like the Thai authorities their ideas on Road safety are based purely on perception, assumption and a large dash of confirmation bias.

i.e. it becomes a litany of descriptions of anecdotes that simply confirm the posters preconceptions about road safety in Thailand - or rather "driving" as they see it.

.........the plural of anecdote is not data

Criticism is good if it is constructive and your workable solution is??

The 5E's, it cures everything.

[jaywalker]

Definitely need 'awareness programs' on TV, re: motorcycle helmets, texting and driving, etc.

That would probably work if it included boings and whistle noises every 10 seconds.

[Artisi]

Definitely need 'awareness programs' on TV, re: motorcycle helmets, texting and driving, etc.

That would probably work if it included boings and whistle noises every 10 seconds.

Don't forget guns, sly looks and canned laughter - all just for effect of course.

[CarolJadzia]

Copy of a recent blog post of mine:-

Since starting to research improving Motorcycle Safety in Thailand, I have met and discussed the situation with many people from a wide range of interests. Road Safety Professionals who have put a lot of work into ways to improve road safety around the world, right through to young high risk riders on scooters in Thailand. A recurring theme across all conversations is a constant referral to ‘you cannot change Thailand’ or ‘we are having difficulties in making progress in Thailand’. It can almost sometimes feel like a lost cause. I can understand the frustration, here is a paper from ten years ago – IATSS Research Volume 29, Issue 1, 2005, but improvements have been slow since then.

When I first got asked for my advice, I had spent many of my years teaching people ride motorcycles upto the standards required in the UK. Be that ‘Compulsory basic training’, UK Full Motorcycle licence test training, or post test advanced training in line with UK Police Roadcraft. So my first response was to suggest the application of a Training scheme with Basic through to advanced Roadcraft Riding Skills in Thailand.

However, the approach I had spent many years perfecting in the UK was counterproductive when applied to Thailand. The first issue is one of ‘losing face’. Now that might sound very insignificant to someone from a western cultural background but it is very important to a Thai, it makes up the backbone of Thai society, their interactions with others are built around it. You could compare it to someone’s reputation being at stake. So just the basic teaching approach of explain-demonstrate-practice could cause an issue if it was suggested someone’s skills were inferior to another.

This can also be seen in the way the Police address situations, they will try to avoid confrontation. Thai Police are low paid and often have to face violent situations or vehicles with armed occupants as well. They often do not understand the things that we in the west take for granted, such as wearing a helmet or going against the traffic. No surprise that they have issues with the standard approach to enforcement.

Drivers and Riders who are trying to eschew confrontation will try to avoid making eye contact by deliberately not turning their heads and looking. It is common to see people emerging from side roads without a glance to the right for example. They do not understand the dangers of their actions and instead act on their cultural norms, which will then often lead them into the very same conflicts that they are trying to avoid.

Status also plays a big part in Thailand, similar to the caste system in India . Thais will consider your status or even your perceived status ‘*’ when they interact with you. On the roads this can lead to people assuming a right of way over others, simply because of their assumed status. ‘*’– it is well reported that sometimes the person blamed for an accident is the one who is seen as the most wealthy, rather than the one who caused the incident.

The Thai’s have a another common term : Pee (Younger) – Nawng (Elder). They respect their elders to a point that even if the older person can be seen to be doing something wrong, it would be a greater wrong to chastise him for what he is doing rather than the actual fault itself. So the wrongdoing will continue unaddressed. This concept is discussed further here – The Thai concept of Pee-Nawng

The Thai Motorcycle test does have a Theory part and a riding assessment, although this only requires a very basic standard of riding. The test has been reported as open to corruption and can also suffer from some of the factors mentioned above. The Car test is similar in standards to the motorcycle test, but no further test is required for larger vehicles. So with only the limited guidance offered and most people having had little or no proper on road defensive driving tuition, it is not surprising that they go back to the ways they know and have grown up with. If you apply the same rules that we use when on foot to the way people in Thailand and Asia drive it makes far more sense.

Thailand is known as the land of smiles and the Thais have some other words that require consideration ‘Mai pen rai’ (let it go, take it easy), ‘Sabai- Sabai (Comfortable – comfortable)’ and others describe the laid back ways of the country’s population. Rather than confront someone or show anger or a lack of understanding, they prefer to ignore or even tell a lie to keep the peace and avoid losing face.

Many in Thailand have been working for years to address the situation on Thai roads. The Land Traffic Act reads like a poorly translated British highway code (Click here for an English translation) and when studied in detail contains conflicting and confusing information. E.g. give way to the left except on roundabouts where you give way to the right. An issue is that the current way is to try and apply Western based standards on a system that plays by different rules.

The Kawasaki ZX10R, a 200 mph sports bike, has just created interest on many Thai facebook biker pages because of its relatively low price, due mainly to it being built by Kawasaki in Thailand in order to bypass the tax duties imposed on imported bikes. Most of the big bike manufacturers from around the world have been doing similar things in order to feed the growing Thai big bike market. It could be assumed that the huge amount of large motorcycles flooding Thailand is a major contributor to the large motorcycle fatality rate. However, although they certainly do contribute to the statistics, by far the majority of motorcycle casualties are from people riding small ‘scooter’ style bikes. Recently when I have heard of an accident involving a larger motorcycle in Thailand, is a very high chance that the casualty was a tourist riding a hire bike.

These days, many accidents do not get reported due to the amount of them happening each day. However the emergency responders from around the country tend to report accidents so you can build a picture of the current situation from them. Of the five to ten accidents I regularly see reported every day happening on Thailand’s roads, it is the Mini buses that are by far the most regularly reported vehicles. About the same number of accidents involve scooters, although the scooter crashes have a far greater chance of involving a fatality. Next on the list are coaches and other commercial vehicles.

Something else to note is that not everybody agrees with the W.H.O. figures on the deaths per 100000 reported. The claims of a group called Thai Websites.com (http://www.thaiwebsites.com/caraccidents.asp) suggest that the figures are lower. The current W.H.O. data for 2015 is estimated from the 2013 results. However, simply discussing the problem of road safety situation in Thailand causes an extra issue with the loss of face to the Thai’s who has been tasked with addressing Thailand road safety, making discussing the issue extremely complicated.

No Surprise / No Accident suggests a new approach to addressing the situation – Safety II. Here is Steven Shorrock discussing the approach – Safety-I and Safety-II

Rather than trying to change the current ways it would be better to work with the Thai’s on a new approach. Thailand has over 19 000 000 motorcycles compared to the UK with a similar population which only has 125 102 Motorcycles (W.H.O. Estimates). Most Thai scooter users use the roads as Pedestrians or Cyclists do in Western countries. Any approach to addressing the situation needs to work with the Thais on finding a way to make their current ways safer. Trying to change them will only meet with continued resistance, but working with them on a new approach is starting to make progress.

https://thairoadcraft.wordpress.com/

[lvr181]

All of us farang (?) posters know the answers BUT the Thai authorities are not going to read or take note of our comments!

However, TV provides a forum for us to get these "grievances" off our chests when in reality most do doubt that anything meaningful and ongoing will happen (based on history), sadly.

"All of us farang (?) posters know the answers: - I'd say that the posts on this thread would indicate quite the opposite - just like the Thai authorities their ideas on Road safety are based purely on perception, assumption and a large dash of confirmation bias.

i.e. it becomes a litany of descriptions of anecdotes that simply confirm the posters preconceptions about road safety in Thailand - or rather "driving" as they see it.

.........the plural of anecdote is not data

Criticism is good if it is constructive and your workable solution is??

The 5E's, it cures everything.

Don't tell us - tell it to the PM!

Then come back here and tell us it worked.

[thailand49]

CarolZ,

Like you I have a number of qualification, one been driving for near 50 years, within those years I have obtained a license to drive, teach and certify commercial drivers, obtain my Motorbike training and license from the California Highway Patrol unit, also have a number of endorsement to operate and teach heavy equipment including moving Aircrafts for a number of US Airlines for their employees. Includes years of seminars with Department of Transportation.

As you noted with all the cultural aspect of Thailand but it should have no baring on operating a vehicle. Motor vehicles were invented in the West, all the rules they place in their system test all come from the West. But big problem like many things they took the laws and no one actually explain to the proper application. If they were, some how through the years the laws/rule have been transform to what they are doing today by the share lack of enforcement. Today driver have been so condition and disensatize to their own method it is killing the greatest resource in their country and that is Thai lives! If you confronted a Thai to their reckless driving they as you say lose face because they have nothing to compare it with so saying they are wrong would only set up a confrontation. How do the leaders of this country solve the problem, how do school teach, when the leaders and teachers are doing the same thing everyone drives in the same manner. You just can't apply rules and test on paper it takes a number of things. Enforcement, Education, Penalty. It does not work if you have nothing to lose. When Thais view driving as a Privilege and Not a Right that is a problem. A vehicle is no different than Gun it is a weapon! You abuse the right you lose it plain and simple. And when their leaders throw out the culture stuff and all the excuses including deciding how much are they willing to give up in money to reduce the problem only then will they be able to make headwave. The first thing W.H.O. is stop giving them or make them accountable where the money is going every baht of it

It is not Thai can't drive they are just so condition that the way they are doing it is the right way! Well, This is Thailand doesn't mean you got to kill yourself needlessly. Driving is a luxury, should be pleasant not pedal to the metal! When Thais, do not fully understand what a Stop means, A solid yellow or double solid line, proper use of Both mirrors, unable to make a proper right or left turn, definition of Righ of way, Stop and proceed with caution, adjust your driving to the condition of the road, allow right way for Emergency vehicles, do not park your vehicle on the train tracks, do not block a intersection with or with a X MARKING. The answer has always been at the Thai leader finger tips and it starts with Enforcement. What is lacking is fortitude to do the right thing instead they make excuses using first their culture!

For a country who so prides itself on " Mai Pen Rai " once behind the wheel , they show no patients, no courtous or consideration for other drivers there is a thing call sharing the road, not using your larger vehicle to intimated smaller vehicles, not using a larger vehicle and speed to determine who has the right way in a intersection. And motorbike drivers need to learn right or wrong you can't win against a Kilo of steel.

The fix is easy but what isn't there is the will to do it. Meantime majority of the accidents and traffic problems are self created! When the car and the rules and laws were invented there is nothing about culture in the equation. Working with the Thais would be great but it is their culture and the lost of face preventing them from asking for outside advice but have no problem accepting the millions USD year after year from the W.H.O. That is the reason year after year there is no progress.

[ianf]

Zero tolerance and harsh punishments such as immediate impounding for speeding. A special force dedicated to road rule enforcement would pay for itself.

In conjunction with that, instead of several hours of "culture" at every school, a couple of hours of driving home the road safety message would be a good start.

Then tackle the karma/bad luck myth. Get all the wats to preach road safety and dispel the "If my karma is good, I can speed through a stop sign" myth. This sermon does not have to run counter to the normal teachings if it is seen as "Don't tempt fate".

THEN, of course, have a serious crackdown on unlisenced drivers, and a serious approach to new licenses with a comprehensive test on road rules.

In my city, it seems as if 90% of drivers do not know what a stop sign is for. As a result, the through traffic stops out of caution, because nobody stops for the stop sign!

The main problem, as I see it, is that Thai drivers are not taught how to drive cars and then take their test in a sterile environment. I'm on the road every day and the dangers that I see are:

1. Blacked out windows - these should be banned as you cannot see the driver and at night time he really cannot see his rear view mirrors properly;

2. No one learns how to drive : they can move their vehicle, but they seriously can't drive. teach them using the UK/Australian model.

3. Kids and whole families on motorbikes, no helmets and no road sense.

4. Overtaking on the nearside : Against Thai law and very dangerous especially given the number of scooters weaving about all over the place.

5. Badly designed road systems

6. Driving on the wrong side of the road

7. Not stopping at junctions

8. Jumping traffic lights

9. No law enforcement

etc etc etc

Added to this a few years ago when they wanted to reduce the figures of fatalities, they managed to do that: By only counting people who die on the road as a fataligt. If you died in the ambulance or hospital that no longer counted.

[ianf]

CarolZ,

Like you I have a number of qualification, one been driving for near 50 years, within those years I have obtained a license to drive, teach and certify commercial drivers, obtain my Motorbike training and license from the California Highway Patrol unit, also have a number of endorsement to operate and teach heavy equipment including moving Aircrafts for a number of US Airlines for their employees. Includes years of seminars with Department of Transportation.

As you noted with all the cultural aspect of Thailand but it should have no baring on operating a vehicle. Motor vehicles were invented in the West, all the rules they place in their system test all come from the West. But big problem like many things they took the laws and no one actually explain to the proper application. If they were, some how through the years the laws/rule have been transform to what they are doing today by the share lack of enforcement. Today driver have been so condition and disensatize to their own method it is killing the greatest resource in their country and that is Thai lives! If you confronted a Thai to their reckless driving they as you say lose face because they have nothing to compare it with so saying they are wrong would only set up a confrontation. How do the leaders of this country solve the problem, how do school teach, when the leaders and teachers are doing the same thing everyone drives in the same manner. You just can't apply rules and test on paper it takes a number of things. Enforcement, Education, Penalty. It does not work if you have nothing to lose. When Thais view driving as a Privilege and Not a Right that is a problem. A vehicle is no different than Gun it is a weapon! You abuse the right you lose it plain and simple. And when their leaders throw out the culture stuff and all the excuses including deciding how much are they willing to give up in money to reduce the problem only then will they be able to make headwave. The first thing W.H.O. is stop giving them or make them accountable where the money is going every baht of it

It is not Thai can't drive they are just so condition that the way they are doing it is the right way! Well, This is Thailand doesn't mean you got to kill yourself needlessly. Driving is a luxury, should be pleasant not pedal to the metal! When Thais, do not fully understand what a Stop means, A solid yellow or double solid line, proper use of Both mirrors, unable to make a proper right or left turn, definition of Righ of way, Stop and proceed with caution, adjust your driving to the condition of the road, allow right way for Emergency vehicles, do not park your vehicle on the train tracks, do not block a intersection with or with a X MARKING. The answer has always been at the Thai leader finger tips and it starts with Enforcement. What is lacking is fortitude to do the right thing instead they make excuses using first their culture!

For a country who so prides itself on " Mai Pen Rai " once behind the wheel , they show no patients, no courtous or consideration for other drivers there is a thing call sharing the road, not using your larger vehicle to intimated smaller vehicles, not using a larger vehicle and speed to determine who has the right way in a intersection. And motorbike drivers need to learn right or wrong you can't win against a Kilo of steel.

The fix is easy but what isn't there is the will to do it. Meantime majority of the accidents and traffic problems are self created! When the car and the rules and laws were invented there is nothing about culture in the equation. Working with the Thais would be great but it is their culture and the lost of face preventing them from asking for outside advice but have no problem accepting the millions USD year after year from the W.H.O. That is the reason year after year there is no progress.

True:But when you say "they show no patients" you should have said they often become patients because they show no patience ......

[soalbundy]

I'll drink to that.

[Robbie Dye]

In their dreams! Total attitude adjustment just cannot happen. Let's keep kids off motorbikes for a starter

[CarolJadzia]

In reply to Thailand49:

Thank you for your constructive reply, I understand your approach fully, we come from similar backgrounds and until two years ago I would have agreed with you.

But my opinions have changed. Two years ago or so I was arguing that the British Police Roadcraft approach to Advanced Rider Training (PDF excerpt Cornering and avoiding skids) was the best in the world. I still rate it as a training manual, it has a lot of good advice in it. Only with better understanding of how the human brain works we are now finding limitations in it's approach that as long as you play by the rules then you will be safe.

When we look at the Road Accident Statistics by 100000 inhabitants then Thailand is 38.1, The UK is 3.5 and the USA 11.6 it suggests that in the UK we are doing pretty well. Only unfortunately Motorcyclists are disproportionally high in those figures. We have huge amounts of investment in enforcement here, Average speed cameras covering large stretches of motorways. Well trained traffic police officers who focus on road traffic offences. Scores of advanced rider and driver training schools and institutions like the 'Institute of Advanced Motorists' and the 'Royal Society for the prevention of Accidents'. We also have the internationally respected Transport Road Research Laboratories' and the Driver and Vehicle Standards agency all focused on improving road safety. Only the accident rates for motorcyclists keeps rising and pedestrians in cities keep dying. Why?

My son is third generation Biker. My father had a Royal Enfield constellation 650 in the 50's and 60's, I always got the blame for forcing him to have to sell it and get a car! He was a Cafe Racer that legends are made from. My bike can exceed the UK national speed limit in first gear. My son rides a big bike as well. I have friends in the UK and Thailand who ride big fast motorcycles. A mate on Samui owns a shop where he has Thais and others come from all over because he specialises in Honda Blackbirds. Here in my local town through the summer we hold a weekly bike night in support of the Royal British Legion Riders Branch, on a dry night we will have between 600 and a 1000 motorcycles turn up. The police turn up as well, they are trying a new approach these days of trying to interact with the public more. Six Police officers and two camera vans are usually deployed to police the event. It is naive to assume that handing out speeding tickets to the few riders they catch will actually stop bikers from speeding. Locations of speed checks are openly discussed and riders look at different ways to avoid them every week. It's a game of cat and mouse. Common in Thailand is the Police Road Block style checks. Also just as common is the locals posting routes to avoid the spot checks. Fact of life.

Heres something else to think about, The Majority of Pedestrian fatalities on UK roads are caused by normal every day drivers doing normal every day things. Not speeding drivers, but normal people. However much you want to take the easy option and say speed kills the evidence that the UK.Gov has shared proves that it is simply not the case. The preoccupation with speed is an easy thing to get hung up on. But it masks the reality of the situation.

In Thailand the majority of motorcycle accidents are small motorcycles, not Big Bikes. I can post a list of reported fatal accidents from the last few days collected from the first responder sites. The majority of accidents are normally Small Bikes, Minibuses and coaches. Followed by pick-ups and then big bikes and cars. Whereas it's the Big bikes and Cars normally speeding. Now not doing the right speed for the conditions or going faster than what is safe for the vehicle could be argued as applying to many drivers in Thailand. However they have never been taught or shown any differently so fining them for speeding is pointless and will only raise animosity toward the police. It will not stop them from speeding, I have 50 years and three generations of family and friends as evidence of that. It's human nature.

I have had my opinions changed on how to approach road safety changed when I first met the guys behind the No Surprise / No Accident approach. They are working on improving the situation in the UK not Thailand. I argued with them at first, in exactly the same way as you and others have argued with me. When we have spent many years learning a particular system and approach we are used to arguing our corner. I can assure you I took a lot of convincing that there were limitations with the 'Roadcraft' approach. However there is plenty of evidence that proves it works. New research into how the human brain works, how we see things and human nature. It is very easy to get stuck in the old enforcement and blame ways, but as our worlds have been changed with computers and the internet, can old ways of addressing Road Safety not be addressed as well?

I am pleased to say that although progress is slow the 'safety II' approach is gathering momentum with Road Safety Professionals around the world. If you look at the mounting evidence it is hard to contest. I always used to play the blame game, looking to find who caused an accident rather than why the accident happened. As traditionally road accidents have tended to be addressed by Police Officers and Insurance Companies it is easy to see why. Only it normally 'Takes two to tangle'. Accidents are rarely caused by one thing. Normally there are many factors involved. Now when I ride or Drive, or teach others to, I teach different.

Most accidents are caused when people are 'surprised' by a different set of circumstances to what they are used to. This is why experienced drivers and riders have fewer accidents than novices. Accidents are caused by prediction failure, if we get better at predicting what happens next then we can also learn ways to avoid the situations that lead to accidents. When I ride my motorcycle I do not want to have an accident, sounds obvious but for years I tried to apply Roadcraft to the way I rode or drove only to have others brake the rules and hit me. Now I do not give them chance, this approach worked just as well in Thailand as it does in England.

Funny enough your arguments against the new approach are also being discussed on international forums -

Why do we resist new thinking about safety and systems?

When I read the posts here about how corrupt the Thai Police are I only think of my friends in Thailand who are Bikers and Thai Police officers. Now I am not trying to suggest they are all angels, however neither are they all corrupt. They are just people trying to do a job. To assume that they do not enforce laws because they cannot be bothered is totally wrong. Try to understand the deeper cultural differences and the true reasons become a lot more apparent. What the 'safety II' approach does is actually stand back to see the facts rather than just assume that old ways that have proved to have limitations elsewhere will suddenly work wonders in Thailand.

[AloisAmrein]

When it comes to road accidents and fatalities, Thailand is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. In earler days, I drove a lot in Thailand, today I prefer to take the bus or train (also not very safe) or to fly (also not very safe). About 71 people are killed EVERY DAY on Thai roads. In comparison: In Switzerland about 160 deaths PER YEAR. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Road-death-toll-in-Thailand-among-highest-in-the-w-30202066.html

[lvr181]

When it comes to road accidents and fatalities, Thailand is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. In earler days, I drove a lot in Thailand, today I prefer to take the bus or train (also not very safe) or to fly (also not very safe). About 71 people are killed EVERY DAY on Thai roads. In comparison: In Switzerland about 160 deaths PER YEAR. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Road-death-toll-in-Thailand-among-highest-in-the-w-30202066.html

Sorry, but your comment is comparing apples with oranges. And on a more humorous note - how many own and ride motorcycles every day in Switzerland?

The national psyche of Thai peoples needs to change before any meaningful decrease in road deaths will take place, from not only a personal responsibility perspective but also from the authorities ongoing will to educate and continually enforce regulations. Otherwise nothing will change.

Edit: Spelling error

[Langsuan Man]

Thailand aims to lower road fatality rates by 80%

Of course they will be able to do it, they will cook the books like they do everything else

[newnative]

Thailand could certainly work towards reducing the number of deaths but as some have already posted, there is no will to do it. And, there seems to be no will to do things better even when things are being done. Example: A new U Turn lane is now being constructed on Sukumvit Road in the Jomtien area. It looks like it is replacing a U Turn lane already there as it is being built nearby. Already, I can see that the new turn lane is not wide enough for good safety and buses and cars making U turns will not be far enough out of the high speed lane. There was plenty of room to make it wider and safer but it looks like they didn't want to remove a few trees in the median--even though there are thousands of palms on Sukumvit and a few could be lost for better safety. As an aside, the old U turn lane should have been left open while the new one was being built as it adds congestion at the next available U turn. So many small things could be done to improve safety like improving intersections but just no will to do it.

[thailand49]

CarolJ,

I agree and disagree, not taking anything away from UK, or you. Not bragging, I've lived here for near ten years and been told I'm more Thai than a Thai, I'm Asian and have done my share of Asian studies.and regardless of all the stats it is a whole different story here.

Yes, you say small bikes and I shake when I see more Thais move up to bigger bikes just like cars and buses etc.. with the same bad driving habits. I could suggest a list from top to bottom as to what this country needs to do to reduce the numbers which would take minimum of 10 years to really address the problem and that would include enforcing the laws on the books within every inch of this country and firing Government officier who do not comply. Enforcement is 24/7 by all not just when you are on duty, and once off do not wear your helmet or follow the rule which you just spent hours preaching to others.

You look at some of the main influnences in Thailand who has the greatest influnence to change things but do not practice what they preach. Government leaders, police, hospital employees, EMS, employees, Commercial drivers, teacher, who preach but once off work do the same thing that add to the problem. Basically they are part of the problem. I 've been to everyone of these facilites and watch people come and go without helmet as a example.

In the end, they purpose many rules and laws, even the government omit they have more rules than most countries but do not enforce them. Enable to fix the problem you must have a alternative something to measure too but many of the leaders have never been outside of the country to study. I met, a Thai official recently who is in the traffic control in Pattaya, many of the things I mentioned in the West he never heard about they are 50 years behind in that department. I fully understand their culture and know regardless of what I'm saying they are doing the best with what they got.

When I say in my other post.. just define and apply some of the laws they already have on the books. Aside from the main roads you see stop signs posted everywhere but how often especially in Pattaya have you seen anyone actually stop before they enter into main road especially a motorbike. Whenever you have law enforcement who uses culture to determine a accident instead of a actual law you have what you have today. You can't make excuses, you can't have a law to wear your helmet but enforce it only in part of Bangkok. You can't allow a Porsche drive down a small Soi, at 120 KM/H cut a 16 year girl in half and blame the car, you can't have a modified tour bus tip over in a turn due to the extra height and blame the driver, You can't have a written driving test that ask the same question 4 times, as to what the answer is when you see a flashing red light, what does one do. Everyone knows the answer should be -- stop and proceed with caution. But only once is the answer correct the other three times the answer is different. Everyone one of us know the faster you go the longer it takes to stop, everyone knows when it rains it is slippery so slow down. But here it is go faster so as to get there and less wet?

Here it is just a backward thinking to fix the problem.. it is blame someone else for the problem. As the report stated they are spending something like 200 billion all wasted due to their driving. A report a few years back stated Thailand loses in revenue about 200 billion, I wonder what it is here today. Regardless of all the stats they can reduce the rate.. just apply their own law culture has no business in this..

[CarolJadzia]

I do understand what you are saying, I have friends in Thailand that I have been working with and we all know the current state of play. Thing is that the enforcement option has been on the cards for years. In a previous post I shared a paper on this argument that was proposing the same enforcement approach as you do. But nothing ever changes.

I know that what is probably going to happen at the moment is that the law enforcement option is going to be played out. The PM is under a lot of international pressure to address road safety and he has promised to do it with enforcement. How far he gets we will see. But without proper rider and driver training then what use are laws that people do not know how to follow?

The No Surprise / No Accident approach comes from a different angle, it's not about finding fault after an accident, it's about avoiding accidents in the first place. We know vehicles will pull out on us without looking. So predict that is what they will do so it is not an issue. We know vehicles will run red lights so allow for that too. It's not about finding fault with others, it is about avoiding confrontation. As that is a fundamental part of Thai culture the approach works far better than trying to find blame where nobody wants to loose face.

[newnative]

Driver training/education is important but directing traffic behavior is more important--especially in Thailand where enforcement is either lax or non-existent. Thailand could certainly learn from Singapore. Singapore recognizes that people are going to do what people are going to do. Like crossing the street wherever they feel like--even if it is dangerous. Solution? Decorative iron fences about 4 feet tall that prevent crossing the street except at designated areas. Motorcycles and cars ignoring the yellow line and driving the wrong way and turning wherever they want? Put up a narrow center median to maintain order and keep the traffic flowing properly with designated turning points out of the traffic flow. Thepprasit Road in Pattaya is just one example of a busy road that would greatly benefit from a center, fenced median with proper turning lanes and crossing points to help manage the chaos. Cars cutting in line at turning lanes on major roads, creating a hazard and disrupting traffic flow by stopping in the fast thru lane? Create barriers at turning lanes so you have to get into the turning lane to turn. Just some examples. There needs to be much more of this.

[thailand49]

This is where we part ways, In my training and teaching before retiring and all the large commercial business like U.P.S. FedEx, and the largest trucker Union who are professionally trained which I have been a instructor and certified tester is get the " Big Picture " when you drive. The reason for this is if you can't get the big picture try stopping a 18 wheeler going down a road at 90KM/H. So every second you got to know who is ahead, who is along side of you, and who is behind you.

The suggestion you suggest like since you know they run red lights account for that, yes we can do and teach that and if we do what good are the laws and what good is it providing it in a test if you do not apply it? Basically you are allowing and suggesting just do what they have been doing except beware. As we know it is not working!

You got laws, enforcing it is the only way to curtail the human nature to want to break them especailly when you the % is very low you will get caught. I will be the first to tell you because I do it all the time that is why I rather drive a bike than a car. When traffic is heavy and at a stand still I do what Thais do, weave through the traffic even go down the wrong way up sidewalk, why because I know the % of chance is slim and none plus I look Thai and rarely get stopped while the Farang does. The biggest difference is I do it responsibly and recklessly at high speed.

In all my long post... everything you say makes sense from the West but as soon as you start to throw it mold to their culture to avoid confrontation everything goes out the window. The reason everything works in the U.K. regarding your programs is enforcement knowing you got something to lose! Here what are you losing?

Here is a true story... a year ago in a very heavy intersection in Pattaya on the Darkside. I stopped in this intersection and waiting for the traffic to ease up before movement. The other side of me the traffic had stopped the vehicles as always was blocking the majority of the intersection but there was a small opening. I could see a vehicle was coming instead of him slowly down he use the size of his vehicle to speed up to make sure he could demand the right of way. I could see and hear his engine speed up so I decided not to cross the intersection even though the other side had a small opening. Everyone saw me stopped so they copy and waited.. all of a sudden I see on my right mirror and Thai guy weaving through the other motorbikes and shot right past and through us without ever looking or even thinking why everyone was stopped. The speeding car who the drivers was thinking I'm going to blast right through that small opening at the last minute saw the motorbike slam on his brakes but clip the back wheel. I sat there thinking this guy got to be dead, when the cars cleared I saw him get up people came running to help him when things settle I pull my bike up to him and said in Thai, you are so lucky, why did you not stop when everyone else did. The people was going to string me up because I came across if I didn't care because of their culture.

t the

There is got to be enforcement, take away their property the car the motorbike. You got to take repeat offenders off the road not deviated because of their culture. So if a guy carries a gun shoot someone we should have adjusted and accounted for someone carrying a gun and shooting someone. Do we make allowances for driver who drink, do we make allowance for driver who talk on the phone and text we are talking about lives here there is no time to waste. Instead of allowing them to put the foot to the metal it is time to put the foot down on the system. Thais, will follow and adjust this is also in their culture.The lost is Jail time pure and simple. Enforce, re-educate, and something to lose if the first two doesn't work!

[mojorison]

Near my house there is a long easy curve, meaning that is can be approached at normal speed and not be given a second look. It is right at the entrance to the primary school. Late at night (nothing good happens in Thailand late at night), after drinking 60 beers, 13 Red Bulls, smoking 8 ice pipes, and operating the vehicle at 230 kmh, some cars tend to miss this unmissable curve (?) , and careen into the power pole on it's apex, usually killing 3 or 4 or 5 at a time. It happens regularly, and always without exception involves (excessive, even exceptional) alcohol and speed. So the local authorities in their typical moment of astute calculation, wisdom and understanding put red and white tires around the pole, and erected a sign 5 meters before it saying "Dangerous Curve". I don't like to use this expression in Thailand, but these people are stupid. The police for their part are worse than bumbling fools. Crime pays. Death and despair pay. With no crime, no death, or despair and other peoples grief.... then they don't get their paycheck. This is the root of the problem. (Apart from the elephant in the room).

[kannot]

How???? are they going to properly repair all roads ONCE

[kannot]

Thailand could certainly work towards reducing the number of deaths but as some have already posted, there is no will to do it. And, there seems to be no will to do things better even when things are being done. Example: A new U Turn lane is now being constructed on Sukumvit Road in the Jomtien area. It looks like it is replacing a U Turn lane already there as it is being built nearby. Already, I can see that the new turn lane is not wide enough for good safety and buses and cars making U turns will not be far enough out of the high speed lane. There was plenty of room to make it wider and safer but it looks like they didn't want to remove a few trees in the median--even though there are thousands of palms on Sukumvit and a few could be lost for better safety. As an aside, the old U turn lane should have been left open while the new one was being built as it adds congestion at the next available U turn. So many small things could be done to improve safety like improving intersections but just no will to do it.

Those U turns are death traps, least they could do is stagger the U turns not have them both together so your view isnt blocked by oncoming traffic U turning also when trying to do one.................to simple for them to figure out I guess

[FritsSikkink]

1) fix potholes / mark them before that

enforce :

2) no more then 2 people on a bike

3) no underaged driving

4) everybody wearing a helmet on a bike

5) a proper driving and theory test before getting a licence

6) less u-turns on the road

7) more lights on the roads

8) better checks on quality of vehicles

should get them in there in a couple of years

[cumgranosalum]

Thailand could certainly work towards reducing the number of deaths but as some have already posted, there is no will to do it. And, there seems to be no will to do things better even when things are being done. Example: A new U Turn lane is now being constructed on Sukumvit Road in the Jomtien area. It looks like it is replacing a U Turn lane already there as it is being built nearby. Already, I can see that the new turn lane is not wide enough for good safety and buses and cars making U turns will not be far enough out of the high speed lane. There was plenty of room to make it wider and safer but it looks like they didn't want to remove a few trees in the median--even though there are thousands of palms on Sukumvit and a few could be lost for better safety. As an aside, the old U turn lane should have been left open while the new one was being built as it adds congestion at the next available U turn. So many small things could be done to improve safety like improving intersections but just no will to do it.

Those U turns are death traps, least they could do is stagger the U turns not have them both together so your view isnt blocked by oncoming traffic U turning also when trying to do one.................to simple for them to figure out I guess

Unless the driving ENVIRONMENT is attended to, it really doesn't matter how much "eduction or Enforcement you have it won't make a huge difference - deaths occur AFTER the collision as a result of the poor roads and car construction...etc etc.....

i the end almost every road, junction etc in Thailand needs to be re-built and redesigned.

[cumgranosalum]

1) fix potholes / mark them before that

enforce :

2) no more then 2 people on a bike

3) no underaged driving

4) everybody wearing a helmet on a bike

5) a proper driving and theory test before getting a licence

6) less u-turns on the road

7) more lights on the roads

8) better checks on quality of vehicles

should get them in there in a couple of years

Half of that is enforcement and the rest is engineering.