Grass for cattle

[cooked]

As you will gather, I am a novice at cattle rearing, my son in law does all the work. I was naively wondering if it would be worthwhile planting a couple of rai with napier grass instead of rice. Would this survive the annual transformation of the rice fields into concrete? Some water would be available. I was thinking of grazing rather than cutting and carrying.

Where would I find napier grass for planting?

[kickstart]

As you will gather, I am a novice at cattle rearing, my son in law does all the work. I was naively wondering if it would be worthwhile planting a couple of rai with napier grass instead of rice. Would this survive the annual transformation of the rice fields into concrete? Some water would be available. I was thinking of grazing rather than cutting and carrying.

Where would I find napier grass for planting?

Hi cooked.

Good question, first off Napier is not a grazing grass ,as you know Napier grows like sugar cain ,cattle walking on the crowns will kill the crowns I know farmers who plant Napier ,then can not be bothethed to cut it ,turn they cattle out to graize ,by then the grass is 5 ft tall all stork ,cattle will only eat the leaves ,leaving all the storks ,up to 70% ,which will have to be chopped down ,with a strimer to ground leavel , then the grass will grow again .it is when the grass is more like grass sward ,1 foot high all leaf, then cattle grazie it ,they will walk on the crowns ,and crush them , cattle will pull at the crowns when graizing and pull out roots out , you might be able to graize cattle,on Nappier now and then , but on a 24/7 system ,will not work .

Nappier grass is drought resistant , and can stand some water logging ,it grows on my land ,like yours, porridge in the wet season ,and concrete like in the dry season ,but our Naiper grass ,with it root system ,has opened the land ,like now trying to knock a fencing post in to my graizing land hard work ,but try it on the Napier grass a lot easyer, but we also aply a few tones of manure per year ,which as you know ,helps a great deal ,with everything .

Napier grass is becoming popular , in Issan one TV member ,is growing it ,and said a lot of farmers are growing it in his area ,when it first become popular 10 years ago, a lot of farmers grew it ,to sell for root stock ,more than for cattle feed ,then it was 5 Bart/ stem ,you needed 1600 stems /rie ,planting on a meter x meter system , times that by a few rie ,nice income.

If you have a dairy co-op near you or some dairy farms , ask there,you could get a few stems plant as a nursery bed ,if fed and watered well , at 60-70 days ,should be able to cut for root stock ,

[Allgeier]

Where would I find napier grass for planting?

I live in Roi Et. If you need some, you are welcome.

If Roi Et is to far then try this

หญ้าเนเปียร์

together with your Provincename in Thai.

[cooked]

Where would I find napier grass for planting?

I live in Roi Et. If you need some, you are welcome.

If Roi Et is to far then try this

หญ้าเนเปียร์

together with your Provincename in Thai.

My brain needs time to work this out, meanwhile I'll go have a beer. It is not just me that has to be convinced as I'm sure you will appreciate.

[CLW]

Might be interesting for the cattle farmers

[cooked]

Is this napier grass? I have been stupidly looking at this for a year and just found out that they let the cattle graze on it when rice land is planted.

[JungleBiker]

Hi Cooked, It's not napier. I think it is either paspalum atratum or guinea. Michael Hare will know.

[Michael Hare]

It looks a very ugly grass to me. Old and rank. At first guess I would say the diploid Paspalum plicatulum. Paspalum plicatulum grows well on wet soils. A low quality grass. DLD used to have seed a few years ago. A smaller relative of tetraploid Paspalum atratum. But then the old seedheads in the photo are not what P. plicatulum would have. More like Jarra digit grass or even Rhodes grass. For sure, definitely not napier grass. Leaves are too narrow to be a guinea grass. With a clearer photo I may be able to give a more educated guess.

[cooked]

It looks a very ugly grass to me. Old and rank. At first guess I would say the diploid Paspalum plicatulum. Paspalum plicatulum grows well on wet soils. A low quality grass. DLD used to have seed a few years ago. A smaller relative of tetraploid Paspalum atratum. But then the old seedheads in the photo are not what P. plicatulum would have. More like Jarra digit grass or even Rhodes grass. For sure, definitely not napier grass. Leaves are too narrow to be a guinea grass. With a clearer photo I may be able to give a more educated guess.

Ok, it's not Napier grass, that's good enough for me, thanks. I will take measures to get some Napier grass nearer to the rainy season.

[cobbler]

Love this. This is definitely a much more economical way to farm. 10 rai of napier ,a cutting blade similar to a hay cutter in oz. Pull it behind a very small tractor and your done.minimal labor and no more buying food ,much. U can silage when u have volume for your lean months. Simple. Its standard farming commonsense. If napier doesnt have enough goodies in it. Well,mix your seed before planting it.
How many head of breeders of Brahman could you possibly run this way?
Cheers cobbler

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[Issangeorge]

What is this grass called?

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[cobbler]

Food for thought.I grew up on the land in australia. My idea to simplify silage. We used to cut the oats same as u do your napier. Let it dry a bit. Then bury it. Cover it with dirt. Then open it and use it in the dry time. Then hiring the bulldozer became too expensive,so built walls from old railway sleepers and put silage inside. Then covered top with dirt using our tractor and bucket.
So im thinking .in stead of using bags and all the labor involved. Why not put the cut grass into a shed and cover it with black or some other color poly pvc sheeting. This should have the same effect and give u the same result .Silage. please let me know your thoughts?

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[kickstart]

@issan george

That grass is  Napier almost looks like   Packchon  2 verity ,looks young  and not bad quality ,but with those thick storks  cattle will still waist up to 40 %,just to hard to eat ,If you want to feed Napier  grass best  chop it first ,then cattle will eat  nearly all the grass.

@ cobbler

The idea of making silage in a clamp has been on the back of my mine for some time ,but it is not easy .

You have got your silage in the clamp ,how are you going to get it out?. Never seen a fork tine in Thailand  to fit on to a for -end loader, one could be made up with out any problem ,that is if you have  a tractor and  loader to start with.

You could use a  buck rake ,Google one  ,and again have it made up ,none are available  over here ,made by a company ,a push off buck rake would be good ,but that needs hydraulic spool valves ,and here in Thailand ,only Fords  and JD's have  spool valves  fitted  as standard ,another  makes it can be done but a hassle .

In the uk  we use to feed silage to dairy cows ,we had a feed company  formulate a ration  for us ,but cows never milked to they full potential ,problem was the face of the silage clamp ,being exposed the whole time silage  quality  dropped ,here in Thailand ,with the heat ,an open face on a silage clamp for say 2 days  you will be feeding  fermented hay .it will just dry up ,and quality  will suffer, you  could cover and seal the clamp after every opening  ,but a lot of hassle ,or have a very narrow face on the clamp that gets used up quickly so not exposed to the  elements .Or if you only have a few cattle ,how about  2 meter wide concrete pipes, 2 stacked up would take a lot of silage ,with out any wastage. could use the smaller ones ,but you might need 2-3  sets to make enough silage for any length of time  I like and have seen, the blue 200 lt plastic drums ,they make very good silage with out any wastage ,but were to stack say 100 ?plastic drums of silage ,also at about 500 baht each they are expensive . One farmer near me used the big stone water butts ,he said they where the same as 20 -25 bags of silage ,a good idea ,but with the narrow opening not easy getting the silage out ,have visions of a fork  being stabbed in the foot.

Also clamp silage needs a plastic sheet ,not easy to find in Thailand ,have seen the black plastic ,from the sides  of chicken  sheds used ,works well to  .

We use bags .have used one bag 2,maybe 3 time ,keeps cost down , we use 2 bags ,less chances of punchers in the bags  and spoiled silage ,we have kept  Napier grass silage up  to  8 months  in bags ,with out any  wastage, but we do wilt the grass for silage for  30 hours ,increases the dry matter ,and improves the keeping time.

\

[Michael Hare]

On 26/02/2017 at 1:39 PM, Issangeorge said:

What is this grass called?

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Definitely hybrid napier grass. Farmers still persist in planting it. It is over-promoted by government departments in Thailand which it is not. Even with the stems chopped there is still a lot of wastage. livestock always select leaf over stem. Livestock waste valuable time and energy trying to select the leaf from the feed on offer. Stems are consumed but because of the high lignin content it is digested. In addition, hybrid napier fields do not seem to persist much longer than 2-3 years due to crown death. Fields then have to be replanted.

 

Mombasa guinea grass is a much superior forage. fields can persist for 5-7 years even with frequent cutting every 30-40 days. See photos.

[CLW]

1.) I think I read some posts here about hydroponic green fodder.
What is your opinion about it?
Even scientists are debating about it very controversial.
In my opinion, it's just a hype and good for the company who sells the equipment. I give you my very own reason: This Green fodder is basically sprouted seeds, so how can the total energy be higher than in grain if the germ uses some of it the germinate. There is no photosynthesis that could add some energy to it. And the structure is still more similar to grain, no fibre added or developed. So anyway you should supply some roughage to your animal.

2.) Why not thinking further and grow real, mature grass hydroponically in a modified system?

3.) Is there a reason why you can't (or maybe can) grow Alfalfa / Lucerne in Thailand?

[Michael Hare]

14 hours ago, CLW said:

1.) I think I read some posts here about hydroponic green fodder.
What is your opinion about it?
Even scientists are debating about it very controversial.
In my opinion, it's just a hype and good for the company who sells the equipment. I give you my very own reason: This Green fodder is basically sprouted seeds, so how can the total energy be higher than in grain if the germ uses some of it the germinate. There is no photosynthesis that could add some energy to it. And the structure is still more similar to grain, no fibre added or developed. So anyway you should supply some roughage to your animal.

2.) Why not thinking further and grow real, mature grass hydroponically in a modified system?

3.) Is there a reason why you can't (or maybe can) grow Alfalfa / Lucerne in Thailand?

 

1 Too expensive for the average Thai farmer  consider hydroponic green forage. 

 

2 Thailand's climate is far too hot and humid for alfalfa. Alfalfa will grow for a short time and then succumb to diseases and pests. Alfalfa grows best in hot, dry environments with low humidity.

 

3 But here in Thailand we have the Tropical lucerne called Ubon stylo. Grows extremely well and very well adapted to northeast Thailand. I will attach a few photos. 

 

 

[kickstart]

@ ClW

         Some where from last year  ,I think on a cattle thread  is a  few post about  hydroponic green fodder ,one TV member put up a few  reference  web sites ,one in particular , said what you said  the energy  values  can not be reached ,and  the DMI, dry matter intake , of the cow can not be reached ,the cow will be in a negative  energy  balance ,meaning when she has calved ,or is in peak production ,she will not be getting enough to eat ,resulting  in weight loss , reduced milk yield ,and more important ,she will not come on  heat ,or she will have  an infertility  problem .

You could say ,with Thai cows  only producing  ,say 12 kg /milk /day ,on a  low energy concentrate feed ,and rice straw , any green feed would do them some good , and would push up  the   milk yield  a bit ,but I would say  of the  few dairy herds  I know of   that are producing a lot of milk  ,I would say  milk yield would be about the same ,what it would  do to the milk quality ,BF, butter fat and milk  protein ,and to the cows overall  fertility .

[New Cowboy]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 8:08 PM, kickstart said:

@ ClW

         Some where from last year  ,I think on a cattle thread  is a  few post about  hydroponic green fodder ,one TV member put up a few  reference  web sites ,one in particular , said what you said  the energy  values  can not be reached ,and  the DMI, dry matter intake , of the cow can not be reached ,the cow will be in a negative  energy  balance ,meaning when she has calved ,or is in peak production ,she will not be getting enough to eat ,resulting  in weight loss , reduced milk yield ,and more important ,she will not come on  heat ,or she will have  an infertility  problem .

You could say ,with Thai cows  only producing  ,say 12 kg /milk /day ,on a  low energy concentrate feed ,and rice straw , any green feed would do them some good , and would push up  the   milk yield  a bit ,but I would say  of the  few dairy herds  I know of   that are producing a lot of milk  ,I would say  milk yield would be about the same ,what it would  do to the milk quality ,BF, butter fat and milk  protein ,and to the cows overall  fertility .

Hi Kickstart....  This link has really detailed comments regarding hydroponics. It seems more negative on the benefits of hydroponic fodder over normal feed stuffs but there are also some very interesting points that cannot be ignored. Though I think the writer is on auto pilot to dismiss any positive aspects of hydroponic fodder. The jury is still out for me. I will think about doing some type of trial when I get back to Thailand. https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=11721

[kickstart]

10 hours ago, New Cowboy said:

Hi Kickstart....  This link has really detailed comments regarding hydroponics. It seems more negative on the benefits of hydroponic fodder over normal feed stuffs but there are also some very interesting points that cannot be ignored. Though I think the writer is on auto pilot to dismiss any positive aspects of hydroponic fodder. The jury is still out for me. I will think about doing some type of trial when I get back to Thailand. https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=11721

Hi New Cowboy.

                             Thanks for that link, interesting read, about the same what I read and posted about.

What I can remember, the guy in your link was feeding his barley  hydroponic at 6-7 days ,I think what I read he was feeding his hydroponic crop at 10 days ,those few extra days would push up the DM a few points ,but he still said, this  guy with the low DM cows would be in a negative energy balance, they just can not get enough DMI, Dry Matter Intake, to maintain production .

But, the paper I read, and your link where talking about milking cows in the  USA where, they are on high energy and high protein diet's  producing a lot of milk, a system like this would reduce production ,but here in Thailand with your beef  cattle on a lower  production  system it might just work . But as was said before, in the USA they have cheap wheat and barley, which we do not have over here, it is imported in to Thailand but finding the sauce ,I would say it would be  CPF or Betagrow the importers and I can not see them selling it to a third party, if it was done in Thailand, you would have to use maize, which here would cost a lot more than in the USA, maybe mung beans could be used, certainly not cheap .

I agree, a lot of interesting points, like you the jury is out.

On Youtube they are some videos of substance farmers in India, use a hydroponic system for them it seems to work.

[New Cowboy]

41 minutes ago, kickstart said:

Hi New Cowboy.

                             Thanks for that link, interesting read, about the same what I read and posted about.

What I can remember, the guy in your link was feeding his barley  hydroponic at 6-7 days ,I think what I read he was feeding his hydroponic crop at 10 days ,those few extra days would push up the DM a few points ,but he still said, this  guy with the low DM cows would be in a negative energy balance, they just can not get enough DMI, Dry Matter Intake, to maintain production .

But, the paper I read, and your link where talking about milking cows in the  USA where, they are on high energy and high protein diet's  producing a lot of milk, a system like this would reduce production ,but here in Thailand with your beef  cattle on a lower  production  system it might just work . But as was said before, in the USA they have cheap wheat and barley, which we do not have over here, it is imported in to Thailand but finding the sauce ,I would say it would be  CPF or Betagrow the importers and I can not see them selling it to a third party, if it was done in Thailand, you would have to use maize, which here would cost a lot more than in the USA, maybe mung beans could be used, certainly not cheap .

I agree, a lot of interesting points, like you the jury is out.

On Youtube they are some videos of substance farmers in India, use a hydroponic system for them it seems to work.

Hi Kickstart. I actually spend most of the year in Goa India since 2003. I have been reading about these hydroponic systems in India. I think they mostly use them because they cannot get a better option or cannot grow grass in they're locality. I have read seperate reports that say they provide green  nutritious fodder at 4 rupees(2 baht) a kilo...Now that sounds cheap...But as with all things Indian you just cannot take it as gospel until you try it/see it/use it yourself... and usually there will be  X factor not included. But they reckon you can make 250kg of fodder a day from a 250,000bht system. Enough for16 cows apparently....  

http://www.foddermachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/240kg-FodderFarm.pdf    

worth a look...

Yes, I understand the earlier link I sent was primarily for dairy cows and I guess fattening beef cows needs a different diet... but I think I will see what seeds I can get for a trial when I next get back to Thailand....

 

However, is it all about the DMI when fattening bulls ????

 

I see that you are mostly dairy and rearing so you need quality nutritious feed. But as it's all about weight for fattening beef cows in Thailand would it not be better to follow the Thai philosophy of mass over quality????..

 

I have a lot to learn about feeding as that is the crux to all things cow.... I could of course try to produce the best fed cows in Thailand,,,,,, but who would pay for  them,, ultimately it is a business and things need to be balanced... Finding a system that works is the goal....

 

Mombassa grass seems interesting and popular for the more experienced Cow farmers..

 

 

Your advice, suggestions and insight are invaluable and very much appreciated

 

Best Regards

 

Joe

 

[JungleBiker]

On 9/6/2018 at 11:38 PM, New Cowboy said:

 

Mombassa grass seems interesting and popular for the more experienced Cow farmers..

 

Michael Hare, who posted at the top of this page 3 March 2017, is the man to talk to about Mombassa Guinea. He can supply you the seed and give info. 

 

I have some Mombasa growing in my garden. It grows upright which makes it easy to cut, similar to Napier. But it is more leafy and less stemmy than napier. 

[kickstart]

11 hours ago, New Cowboy said:

Hi Kickstart. I actually spend most of the year in Goa India since 2003. I have been reading about these hydroponic systems in India. I think they mostly use them because they cannot get a better option or cannot grow grass in they're locality. I have read seperate reports that say they provide green  nutritious fodder at 4 rupees(2 baht) a kilo...Now that sounds cheap...But as with all things Indian you just cannot take it as gospel until you try it/see it/use it yourself... and usually there will be  X factor not included. But they reckon you can make 250kg of fodder a day from a 250,000bht system. Enough for16 cows apparently....  

http://www.foddermachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/240kg-FodderFarm.pdf    

worth a look...

Yes, I understand the earlier link I sent was primarily for dairy cows and I guess fattening beef cows needs a different diet... but I think I will see what seeds I can get for a trial when I next get back to Thailand....

 

However, is it all about the DMI when fattening bulls ????

 

I see that you are mostly dairy and rearing so you need quality nutritious feed. But as it's all about weight for fattening beef cows in Thailand would it not be better to follow the Thai philosophy of mass over quality????..

 

I have a lot to learn about feeding as that is the crux to all things cow.... I could of course try to produce the best fed cows in Thailand,,,,,, but who would pay for  them,, ultimately it is a business and things need to be balanced... Finding a system that works is the goal....

 

Mombassa grass seems interesting and popular for the more experienced Cow farmers..

 

 

Your advice, suggestions and insight are invaluable and very much appreciated

 

Best Regards

 

Joe

 

 

Hi Jo

        Dairy and beef are much the same, you feed a dairy cow on a 14% feed and rice straw, she will not milk, and will have an infertility problem, especially 1st calving heifers.

You feed a 14% feed and rice straw to some beef cattle, and they will not grow/ fatten, some Thai Native x Brahman will grow, but not at a good rate, a Charolais xBrahman would struggle to grow. , especially the Charolais, being an intensive breed, or any Europen breed for that matter. 

You look at any book about cattle feeding, all will say energy is the limiting factor, in milk production or beef cattle and the DM of a feed ( just look at the link you posted on hydroponics  all that was to do with DM ).and DMI, dry matter intake, if an animal eats a lot of low DM food he or she will be full up with water, not food and will not grow or milk.

Or the food is too bulky  ie rice straw, or old nappier grass cattle, eat the straw/ grass, then the ,

stomach is full, but on a feed value basis, DMI they are only 50% full, this is a big problem with dairy cattle and will cause low milk yields and an infertility problem, with beef cattle you will get low growth rate.

You do not need to be experienced  to grow Mombassa,like all grasses good managemet,is more important Mombassa again, when cut young it  will have a high protein, up to 15% ,but when it gets to 12 weeks old protine is only 5-10% , and again like all grasses it needs regular applications of urea.