Yeah nobody wants to hear anti Semitic drivel.

But why is it that some countries, make it a point to want people to respect their customs/culture and religious beliefs.

Yet couldn't care less and have no interest in other peoples customs/culture and religious beliefs, even going as far as giving foreigners racist tags, and religious bigotry for their own people.

Seems whats good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

Racial and religious tagging and discrimination is against the law in my country.

" Racial and religious tagging and discrimination is against the law in my country."

That's in my opinion just another form of censorship and violation of freedom of speech.

As I mentioned before freedom of speech and racism should not be confused. Criticising or mocking opinions, ideas, religions, policies is OK in term of freedom of speech. Now when you target a group of people as a whole because of ethnicity or religion, that's racism.

In this particular case, there's a difference between criticising zionism, and inciting hate against jewish people.

In France, failing to make this distinction has resulted recently in Jews being beaten or even killed, only because they were Jews.

So derogatory cartoons make false propaganda against 1.8 billion Muslims are OK, but nobody should say anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of some little Jew girl... What kind of logic is this?

It is disgusting to have double standards...

I have never heard of this man and am not really interested but I guess the phrase "Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones But Names Will Never Hurt Me" is now obsolete thanks to people who are "offended" or by people who think someone else may be offended by one persons voice. Never mind - Mai Pen Rai!

Maybe all the people who used to watch "Love Thy Neighbor" on TV years ago and laughed at it should be arrested and charged now! and as for the actors ...well... they should be hanged!

Alf Garnet - 20 years in solitary.

Jim Davidson - Firing squad.

Benny Hill - Death of a thousand cuts.

Murderers under 18 years old - No Charges.

Muggers and Thieves - 500 THB fine.

So derogatory cartoons make false propaganda against 1.8 billion Muslims are OK, but nobody should say anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of some little Jew girl... What kind of logic is this?

It is disgusting to have double standards...

Mocking a religion is not racism, in particular if the media involved has a record of mocking all religions without discrimination (in the case of Charlie Hebdo, there has been about ten times more caricatures related to the Christian religion than the Moslem religion).

Up to my knowledge, nobody has been allowed to make statements justifying an eventual mass-killing of moslems just because they are moslem, without being charged with racism .

Just as nobody is allowed to approve the killings of african slaves in previous centuries without being charged with racism.

That's the logic, if you have any

He's making fun of all religions!! Not only Judaism! He's an advocate for peace and openly condemns the Palestinian genocide... that gives you an idea why Israel wants to shut this guy up! They don't want the world to realize that they are doing the same thing that was done to their people!

What Palestinian genocide? You mean that when Israel takes maximum precautions to prevent civilian casualties when retaliating to rocket attacks, that is genocide? Or do you mean that the Muslims in general and the Palestinians in particular want to kill every single Jew and annihilate Palestine? They say so quite openly and they don't have a sense of humour. The fact taht Palestine has refused a two state solution with Israel more than once isn't a coincidence.

( https://www.facebook.com/StandWithUs/videos/10153386788027689/ )

I guess that this is the Israeli side of the story... and that's the one you decided to believe (or were thought to believe)... nonetheless this is very sad...

Did you actually watch all of it? Abbas himself admits that he refused this solution and it is documented elsewhere.

I suggest that you do a bit of reading about why the deal was rejected.

Multiple off topic and conspiracy troll posts have been removed

So derogatory cartoons make false propaganda against 1.8 billion Muslims are OK, but nobody should say anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of some little Jew girl... What kind of logic is this?

It is disgusting to have double standards...

I think the description of a Jewish woman as a Jew girl is a derogatory term of the lowest order, that of a rampant racist and Jew hater. I wonder how you describe Thais and other people you probably consider as inferior races?

I`m getting out of this thread, too heavy for me.

So derogatory cartoons make false propaganda against 1.8 billion Muslims are OK, but nobody should say anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of some little Jew girl... What kind of logic is this?

It is disgusting to have double standards...

I think the description of a Jewish woman as a Jew girl is a derogatory term of the lowest order, that of a rampant racist and Jew hater. I wonder how you describe Thais and other people you probably consider as inferior races?

I`m getting out of this thread, too heavy for me.

Wise move.

This thread has (predictably) become a Bucket of Hatred.

The last thing zionists want is for the truth and all of their lies to be exposed. Always playing the victim but responsible for most of the hate and murder that's gone on in the world for the last 150 years. Who controls the world banking system, mass media, US foreign policy and who were the bolsheviks that were responsible for the genocide of countless millions of Russian and Ukranian christians? Wake up and stop listening to their drivel and please no accusations or lectures about me being an anti semite. Plenty of jews are anti zionist.

Don't believe me? Click on the video link for a good short film.

^^ these type of jewis are against zionism and the state of israel because of radical religious reasons, ie. god did not choose the state of israel, people did. therefor according to them zionism and the state of israel are evil.

this been said: imo denying the holocaust should be allowed, same as insulting jesus or mohammed. sure, it's stupid and provocative to deny the holocaust but if that is the guy's opinion. opinions don't kill people......

Opinions certainly do kill people. Hitler's opinions caused the death of 6 million Jews, 2 million gypsies and million upon millions of young men around the World. The opinion of a few Muslims caused the death of Charlie Hebdo.

No, these are opinions made actions.

Cause and effect. The cause for the actions were his opinions, if you don't see how that works there is something wrong with you. Let me put it to you; If somebody had acted on Hitler's opinions, if he'd been closed down for spouting his vile rhetoric, then countless millions would not have been put to death nor perished fighting because they didn't agree with his opinions.

If he is not funny and nobody wants to see him then it should not matter as nobody would turn up for his show, right?

I know nothing about this guy, but censorship is always wrong.

Thailand, the hub of censorship.

So you openly support people who promote terrorism and hatred. What a nice person you are.

No he doesn't. He points that that censoring someone just because you disagree with them is not what free speech means.

Do you understand why?

You just wrote an example of how those who wish to muffle views they don't like attempt to accuse someone of something different.

You and the General have a lot in common

So derogatory cartoons make false propaganda against 1.8 billion Muslims are OK, but nobody should say anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of some little Jew girl... What kind of logic is this?

It is disgusting to have double standards...

I think the description of a Jewish woman as a Jew girl is a derogatory term of the lowest order, that of a rampant racist and Jew hater. I wonder how you describe Thais and other people you probably consider as inferior races?

I`m getting out of this thread, too heavy for me.

Wise move.

This thread has (predictably) become a Bucket of Hatred.

More like a bucket of sh*t. Amazes me why this sort of thing is allowed to continue on? It`s getting almost as bad as the comments on Youtube.

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Petchou

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

What is wrong? only facts count. Show them if you have any and put references. Without that, your opinion have no value.

BTW, you should say what I wrote is maybe wrong, it has nothing about me. Why you personalize this discussion?

Your previous posts don't bring any specific facts about dieudonne case. Just generalities and opinions that are yours. Facts or nothing and references please

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Petchou

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

That's because they are the people who believe what they read and watch from the mainstream media. We need those, or else who would vote and pay taxes? Somebody's got to be the donkey or the chariot won'd budge.

More like a bucket of sh*t. Amazes me why this sort of thing is allowed to continue on? It`s getting almost as bad as the comments on Youtube.

Really great click bait, innit?

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

Your post didn't address the long history of political satire in French culture. Some are really brilliant, and yes, they're part of a democratic apparatus.

Dieudonnee is anti establishment. Nothing more...

From a logic point of view: if someone is named falsely 'anti semitic' while he isn't, is in fact applying a subtile form of anti semitism...

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Thorgal

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

Your post didn't address the long history of political satire in French culture. Some are really brilliant, and yes, they're part of a democratic apparatus.

Dieudonnee is anti establishment. Nothing more...

From a logic point of view: if someone is named falsely 'anti semitic' while he isn't, is in fact applying a subtile form of anti semitism...

Wow, I am always amazed by the creativity of fear mongers. New concept "subtle antisemitism". You are too subtle too. :-)

Can you show me one situation where he was subtlety antisemitic?

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Petchou

Next concept is "invisible to you antisemitic" concept :-)

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Petchou

Really Dieudonné is denouncing this kind of thing:

And it's bringing him a lot of trouble, but also a lot of support.

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by reggaebkk

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

What is wrong? only facts count. Show them if you have any and put references. Without that, your opinion have no value.

BTW, you should say what I wrote is maybe wrong, it has nothing about me. Why you personalize this discussion?

Your previous posts don't bring any specific facts about dieudonne case. Just generalities and opinions that are yours. Facts or nothing and references please

OK, sorry about personnalisation. Your perception of Dieudonné correspond to how he was maybe 10 years ago, not what he has become since. He started by being antizionist and ended up being antisemitic. I brought some facts in a post I made before and was lazy to repeat again (see previous page of this thread), stating:

"No! This guy has crossed the border between free speech (antizionism) and racism (antisemitism) more than 10 years ago. He has since continuously targeted a group of people (the Jews), not only a state (Israel) and its policy. He has been condemned several times for inciting racial hate, has developped relationships with extreme-right racist movements, etc... For example he has been long linked to Alain Soral, who is famous for doing a "quenelle" (a gesture widely interpreted as: "you have it in the ass"), in front of the Shoah memorial in Berlin When you look at his sketches and the reactions of his public, the tone is clearly racist.

Just a few eloquent cases (From a French court judgment):

About Holocaust:

Dieudonne claimed to know nothing about the gas chambers but said he can organize a meeting for anyone interested with Robert (Rober Faurisson, a well-known negationist in France)

Additionnally, he also declared that he shouldn't be required to judge between "the Jews and the Nazis.", and also: "I don't know what happened, who provoked whom, who stole from whom, I've got my little idea, but... you know."

If you have information showing that what I wrote is innacurate, please bring them to our knowledge (remember I don,t say he's not antizionist, I say he is antizionist + antisemitic. Even pro-palestinian organisations in France have disaproved him.

If you want to refresh your information on him, see:

http://www.lemonde.fr/police-justice/article/2015/01/29/dieudonne-huit-proces-perdus-depuis-2007_4565466_1653578.html

In particular:

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/societe/20140212.AFP9916/la-justice-ordonne-a-dieudonne-de-retirer-deux-passages-d-une-video.html

Antisemitism..Amtischmemitism. Watch the documentary "Defamation".

https://youtu.be/pJo7LhSPJaY

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

What is wrong? only facts count. Show them if you have any and put references. Without that, your opinion have no value.

BTW, you should say what I wrote is maybe wrong, it has nothing about me. Why you personalize this discussion?

Your previous posts don't bring any specific facts about dieudonne case. Just generalities and opinions that are yours. Facts or nothing and references please

OK, sorry about personnalisation. Your perception of Dieudonné correspond to how he was maybe 10 years ago, not what he has become since. He started by being antizionist and ended up being antisemitic. I brought some facts in a post I made before and was lazy to repeat again (see previous page of this thread), stating:

"No! This guy has crossed the border between free speech (antizionism) and racism (antisemitism) more than 10 years ago. He has since continuously targeted a group of people (the Jews), not only a state (Israel) and its policy. He has been condemned several times for inciting racial hate, has developped relationships with extreme-right racist movements, etc... For example he has been long linked to Alain Soral, who is famous for doing a "quenelle" (a gesture widely interpreted as: "you have it in the ass"), in front of the Shoah memorial in Berlin When you look at his sketches and the reactions of his public, the tone is clearly racist.

Just a few eloquent cases (From a French court judgment):

About Holocaust:

Dieudonne claimed to know nothing about the gas chambers but said he can organize a meeting for anyone interested with Robert (Rober Faurisson, a well-known negationist in France)

Additionnally, he also declared that he shouldn't be required to judge between "the Jews and the Nazis.", and also: "I don't know what happened, who provoked whom, who stole from whom, I've got my little idea, but... you know."

If you have information showing that what I wrote is innacurate, please bring them to our knowledge (remember I don,t say he's not antizionist, I say he is antizionist + antisemitic. Even pro-palestinian organisations in France have disaproved him.

If you want to refresh your information on him, see:

http://www.lemonde.fr/police-justice/article/2015/01/29/dieudonne-huit-proces-perdus-depuis-2007_4565466_1653578.html

In particular:

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/societe/20140212.AFP9916/la-justice-ordonne-a-dieudonne-de-retirer-deux-passages-d-une-video.html

DELETED

Can you bring tangible proof of him saying anything antisemitic? Vidéo for exemple.

Btw, valls prime minister déclarés recently, hé will pass a law to make any criticism of Israel forbidden and punished. Not because it's France, everything is right neither good.

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by seedy
non English

I read that under Stalin and the Jewish Bolshevik Russian mafia, I mean government, anti semitism was treated to the death penalty.

Antisemitism..Amtischmemitism. Watch the documentary "Defamation".

Great documentary.

OP is similar with the part of ADL visit in Ukraine : from YouTube: past header...

"Defamation - ADL bullying Ukraine into downplaying the Holodomor as serious as ...

Sorry, can't copy the direct link from YouTube...

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Thorgal

Interesting case. Thailand does give a s%$* about antisemitism. There must been pressure from very very very high to kick him out. Think about all the Hakenkreuz shirts and tatooes around the country. I have meet a Thai guy around 21 year of age who had many Hitler based tattoos on his body and was very proud of it. I spared my time to explained him that his would probably get in trouble if he trouble with this in Europe.

Yes, I'm a little surprised that this was taken seriously at a high level and acted on in a short space of time.

Something's changed, I'm sure we all remember the 'Hitler Fried Chicken' incident from a few years back.

I don't recall that the Israeli embassy got involved in that one, but I know you're totally wrong, nothing's changed. Israel and Thailand have decent relations, simple as that.

So nothing's changed in Thailand about that.

But a place that has changed is in FRANCE.

The antisemitism there is as bad as its been since World War 2 and a significant percentage of French Jews don't feel safe living there anymore.

There are almost no Thai Jews, but France includes the third most populous Jewish population in the world, after the USA and Israel.

Interestingly a country doesn't need to have any or many Jews for there to be rampant anti-semitism (neighboring Malaysia is a classic example of that) but antisemitism in Thailand (among Thais) is not at all severe.

Did it ever cross your mind that distain can come from a valid place? Not choosing sides here but feelings and opinions are always valid and often based on truths. You have shown your allegiance and your truths are your truths but just because you say "Jews are great because of this or that" doesn't make it anymore valid than people who hold an opposing view. Free speech includes distain and even hate, valid or not. Silencing those who you say should be silenced makes you just as guilty and those you claim should be silenced. I agree with your posts on TV a vast majority of the times but you may have lost your objectivity due to your overwhelmingly obvious allegiances in this case. Let's keep it "jing" Jingthing.

Hello

Being french I am very happy this ars... has been thrown out.. I only deeply regret he is not thrown out from France... I read somebody here saying he is supposed to be one of the best french humorists.. Sorry this piece of sh.. doesn't make me laugh and I think he is far from being the best humorist or even a decent level one.. I remind he also for years had a jew as a partner.. it was Elie and Dieudonné (for Elie Semoun).. Of course they split and when they were together, yes they were humorists....

I just remind he also has in France a case for tax evasions and not only for 1000 euros but huge amounts.. etc.. I wish he would have been kept here in BGK Hilton where conditions are not as good as they are in France and would rot her\e in jail till he burns in hell..

If our government was good he would be in jail already and for a good quantity of years..

Regarding the jews condition in France, a lot already left due to security reasons and a lot are decided to leave ASAP.. Lately the Marseille's rabin called the jews not to wear the kippa any more as a jew teacher had been stabbed in the back and nearly killed by a 16 years old arab when going to school.. He was saved only because he managed when falling down to protect himself with his bag and holly book.. !!

Have a nice day

Yes, he is recognized by a fast majority of people in his industry and the public to be the best.

You don't like his humour, so what?

Many more appreciate his performances, without necessary approving all of his public declarations.

Elie, unfortunately, does not have the same talent.

As for his problem with the justice system in France, it's another discussion.

Yeah, I downloaded all he's shows from the net. and watched them on my own....he is very funny and says a whole lot of inconvenient truths about the Zionists.

Now ?.. if all the Jews assimilate them selves with Zionists it is there problem. If they can not make the difference ?!?!?

Diedonne sometimes pushes the limits (like did Coluche and others)....but never falls into anti Semitism. On the other hand, the world would never improve if people like him didn't pushed the limits...a bit.by a bit..???

Dieudonne has powerful enemies, and they use every thing they can to brake him....and the law and the media are always on there side....

Best regards.

Wow. Amazing how people here who don't speak french and have never even heard of him or his work can react, judge etc....

Dieudonne is not Holocaust denier, not anti semitic, he clearly denounced Israel and Zionism. Anyone who criticize Israel is called antisemitic. He is one of the victims of this vendetta.

He worked for long time as duo on with a Jew partner, which shows the big lie about his antisemitic position.

Sorry you're wrong. See my previous posts.

Your post didn't address the long history of political satire in French culture. Some are really brilliant, and yes, they're part of a democratic apparatus.

Dieudonnee is anti establishment. Nothing more...

From a logic point of view: if someone is named falsely 'anti semitic' while he isn't, is in fact applying a subtile form of anti semitism...

Wow, I am always amazed by the creativity of fear mongers. New concept "subtle antisemitism". You are too subtle too. :-)

Can you show me one situation where he was subtlety antisemitic?

In the judicial case against Jewish French reporter Patrick Haziza.

Average person with basic knowledge of French history knows that decret Cremieux was implemented and it's not anti semitic to ask whereabouts of any grandparents during WW2...

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by Thorgal

What is wrong? only facts count. Show them if you have any and put references. Without that, your opinion have no value.

BTW, you should say what I wrote is maybe wrong, it has nothing about me. Why you personalize this discussion?

Your previous posts don't bring any specific facts about dieudonne case. Just generalities and opinions that are yours. Facts or nothing and references please

OK, sorry about personnalisation. Your perception of Dieudonné correspond to how he was maybe 10 years ago, not what he has become since. He started by being antizionist and ended up being antisemitic. I brought some facts in a post I made before and was lazy to repeat again (see previous page of this thread), stating:

"No! This guy has crossed the border between free speech (antizionism) and racism (antisemitism) more than 10 years ago. He has since continuously targeted a group of people (the Jews), not only a state (Israel) and its policy. He has been condemned several times for inciting racial hate, has developped relationships with extreme-right racist movements, etc... For example he has been long linked to Alain Soral, who is famous for doing a "quenelle" (a gesture widely interpreted as: "you have it in the ass"), in front of the Shoah memorial in Berlin When you look at his sketches and the reactions of his public, the tone is clearly racist.

Just a few eloquent cases (From a French court judgment):

About Holocaust:

Dieudonne claimed to know nothing about the gas chambers but said he can organize a meeting for anyone interested with Robert (Rober Faurisson, a well-known negationist in France)

Additionnally, he also declared that he shouldn't be required to judge between "the Jews and the Nazis.", and also: "I don't know what happened, who provoked whom, who stole from whom, I've got my little idea, but... you know."

If you have information showing that what I wrote is innacurate, please bring them to our knowledge (remember I don,t say he's not antizionist, I say he is antizionist + antisemitic. Even pro-palestinian organisations in France have disaproved him.

If you want to refresh your information on him, see:

http://www.lemonde.fr/police-justice/article/2015/01/29/dieudonne-huit-proces-perdus-depuis-2007_4565466_1653578.html

In particular:

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/societe/20140212.AFP9916/la-justice-ordonne-a-dieudonne-de-retirer-deux-passages-d-une-video.html

Les deux articles ne prouvent absolument rien. À part le fil des événements de ses procès avec la justice et l'acharnement des puissantes organisations sionistes de France contre toute voix discordante.

Can you bring tangible proof of him saying anything antisemitic? Vidéo for exemple.

Btw, valls prime minister déclarés recently, hé will pass a law to make any criticism of Israel forbidden and punished. Not because it's France, everything is right neither good.

So you consider the quotes I made are not antisemitic? (they come from his videos on Youtube, and quoted in the minutes of the court ruling)

Dieudonne claimed to know nothing about the gas chambers but said he can organize a meeting for anyone interested with Robert (Rober Faurisson, a well-known negationist in France)

Additionnally, he also declared that he shouldn't be required to judge between "the Jews and the Nazis.", and also: "I don't know what happened, who provoked whom, who stole from whom, I've got my little idea, but... you know."

Do you also consider that this is not antisemitic(from one of his show, and also cited in the minutes of the court ruling) « Tu vois, lui, si le vent tourne, je ne suis pas sûr qu'il ait le temps de faire sa valise. Moi, tu vois, quand je l'entends parler, Patrick Cohen, j'me dis, tu vois, les chambres à gaz... Dommage » I explain for non-French, this one: Patrick Cohen is a jewish French journalist he hates and Dieudonné declared: "You see, if tide turns, I am not sure he would have time to pack a suitcase. Me, you know, when I hear Patrick Cohen talking, I tell to myself, you know, gas chambers....too bad" (In case some of you had some doubt about the meaning, any French people understands he means "too bad there are no gas chamber any more to put him in)

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/01/28/01016-20150128ARTFIG00179-dieudonne-juge-pour-des-propos-antisemites-visant-un-journaliste.php

Edited February 1, 201610 yr by candide

Never heard him, and never heard of him, but is he anti-semitic, as in anti-Jewish? Or anti-Israel? While there is no doubt that either would get the Israeli ambassador's knickers in a twist, there is a huge difference.