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Trump reverses position on torture, targeting civilians


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Trump reverses position on torture, targeting civilians

ROBERT BURNS, AP National Security Writer


WASHINGTON (AP) — Donald Trump retreated Friday from his promise that if elected president he would order the military to kill family members of militants who threaten the United States.

Trump's campaign issued a statement quoting him as saying he would not order the military to take actions contrary to international or U.S. law.

But fewer than 24 hours earlier, in Thursday's GOP debate, Trump stuck to his position on targeting family members of militants and on an expansive use of torture against captured militants. When a debate moderator asked him what he would do if the military refused to carry out such orders, Trump replied: "They're not going to refuse me. Believe me."

The use of torture and the killing of civilians are barred by the Geneva Conventions, to which the United States is a signatory. Congress outlawed waterboarding and any so-called enhanced interrogation techniques after the administration of George W. Bush carried out such acts against suspected al-Qaida fighters. Members of the U.S. military are bound by duty and tradition to refuse orders they know to be illegal. This includes intentionally targeting civilian noncombatants.

The issue drew additional attention this week when more than 100 Republican defense and national security figures, including former senior Pentagon officials, issued a statement blasting Trump's foreign policy positions and calling his embrace of the expansive use of torture "inexcusable."

Defining when aggressive interrogation techniques such as waterboarding amount to torture is a matter of debate, but Trump had made clear that as president he would not hesitate to go beyond waterboarding.

"We should go for waterboarding and we should go tougher than waterboarding," he said at Thursday's debate.

He also had defended his position on targeting the family of militants, which he first raised in a "FOX and Friends" interview last December. "The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families. When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families."

On Friday, however, Trump reversed course.

"I will use every legal power that I have to stop these terrorist enemies," the statement issued by his campaign said. "I do, however, understand that the United States is bound by laws and treaties and I will not order our military or other officials to violate those laws and will seek their advice on such matters. I will not order a military officer to disobey the law. It is clear that as president I will be bound by laws just like all Americans and I will meet those responsibilities."

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-- (c) Associated Press 2016-03-05

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"..he would not order the military to take actions contrary to international or U.S. law." Perhaps he'll have CIA do it. More experience and all. Does Trump ever think thing through? Sure fanboys will say "shows he can be flexible" or some such balderdash. Dare we use the term so popular among repubs "flip flop"?

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I think it is encouraging that he shows the ability to back off stupid statements. He certainly isn't the first candidate to flip-flop on an issue. Just a reminder, in 2008 Obama & Hillary both opposed same sex marriage. I don't think they changed until as late as 2012.

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Maybe Trump's realized that he needs to take away the GOP "Stop Trump" movement's selling points to others in the party and to appear more presidential...or less unpresidential (if that's a word).

He doesn't need military and other security types coming up with valid reasons why they would not listen to him as their CINC. That has to at least be weakening his image with his base, who are still supporting him for now, and he needs to be at least palatable to some of his current non-base who are leaning to endorse him.

Maybe he's at the point where he'll start dialing back some of the rhetoric for the sake of appearing presidential. I am not so sure about that, but there's always hope (not that I support him).

I agree with Emster23 above. Trump doesn't seem to think these things through very well, if at all.

Edited by helpisgood
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"..he would not order the military to take actions contrary to international or U.S. law." Perhaps he'll have CIA do it. More experience and all. Does Trump ever think thing through? Sure fanboys will say "shows he can be flexible" or some such balderdash. Dare we use the term so popular among repubs "flip flop"?

So now people are concerned with what Trump's positions are. He won't be the Republican nominee, they said. Then it was he won't be president, Obama said. Gee for someone who has zero chance of becoming president, people sure are interested in his positions.

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"..he would not order the military to take actions contrary to international or U.S. law." Perhaps he'll have CIA do it. More experience and all. Does Trump ever think thing through? Sure fanboys will say "shows he can be flexible" or some such balderdash. Dare we use the term so popular among repubs "flip flop"?

So now people are concerned with what Trump's positions are. He won't be the Republican nominee, they said. Then it was he won't be president, Obama said. Gee for someone who has zero chance of becoming president, people sure are interested in his positions.

Gee, for someone who has garnered a lot of support for being blunt, outspoken and not behaving like a politician he sure is acting like one now.

If I was a Trump supporter I would feel betrayed as well as feeling very, very st "less than bright".

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I think it is encouraging that he shows the ability to back off stupid statements. He certainly isn't the first candidate to flip-flop on an issue. Just a reminder, in 2008 Obama & Hillary both opposed same sex marriage. I don't think they changed until as late as 2012.

They merely changed their stand on a emotive subject, unlike Trump who has now retracted his brash, declared illegal intentions.

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I think it is encouraging that he shows the ability to back off stupid statements. He certainly isn't the first candidate to flip-flop on an issue. Just a reminder, in 2008 Obama & Hillary both opposed same sex marriage. I don't think they changed until as late as 2012.

They merely changed their stand on a emotive subject, unlike Trump who has now retracted his brash, declared illegal intentions.

They changed their stance to get votes, just like Trump.

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Come on this is Trump waffle.

Nothing has changed apart from the packaging.

The contents are still the same toxic political candy product of a dubious political character.

Trump and his like should like cigarettes come with a government health warning.

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If you get a chance, watch the BBC's "Newsnight" program aired last night which highlights Trumps past association with organized crime in the US.

He changes his position on most things when it is pointed out to him that his policies would be illegal, impractical or idiotic.

Oh, I almost forgot, he also has been reported as having a very small "member". I find this surprising, as I thought he was a big d*ck.

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If I was a Trump supporter I would feel betrayed as well as feeling very, very st "less than bright".

As long as we are talking about being betrayed by a politician running for president...

if I were one of those millions of hopefuls who donated to Bernie's presidential campaign I would certainly feel betrayed and would even start a class-action suit against him if I knew how.Why the feeling of betrayal? It borders on fraud...he asks people to give him money to run for president then he doesn't even try to win. Even though he is behind in delegates and in the polls, he refuses to confront his only opponent with some uncomfortable facts regarding the investigations into her email server and the Clinton Foundation. Feel the Burn? Yeah, those who supported him with donations sure got burned.

Bernie doesn't say stupid/illegal things like torture or targeting civilians...and he hasn't done anything illegal that I know of like Clinton. But we all know that if Berne had a chance at winning the nomination, he would reverse his position on some of his more radical/socialist statements in order to move more towards the center. But as it is, he can appear principled because he doesn't really want the nomination anyway.[edit...just your money]

Edited by mopar71
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The flip flip is normal for any politician yet he ingenuously claims not to be a politician.

Anyway, the disturbing thing about this position change is that Trump's base was very happy to enthusiastically support a candidate openly promising to commit war crimes.

That says a lot about his base.

It's a classic fascist base.

He knows it but with a position change like that he's trying to expand his base and figures his true believers don't care what he says anyway.

They like his hateful style.

This also speaks to Trump's character and presidential temperament suitability.

He said that stuff before. Now he retracts. Did he really want to commit the war crimes when he said it before or was it just a game to attract the large fascist base?

Face, nobody really knows this man's core ideology. He probably doesn't even have one or know himself. That's why he is properly attacked from his left and right.

He's a disaster. Hopefully the American people will realize that before it's too late.

Edited by Jingthing
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Good. No one should consider such things in the first place, much less say them out loud, and I appreciate Trump's willingness to acknowledge he was wrong.

I think "desperation" is a better word than "willingness" in this context.

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I had not seen this video before, nor the clips. It makes me wish he did not reprimand Fox for Fox's language. Instead, I applaud Trump to use more of the visceral language that percolates in all Americans now daily. youtube search "Origin of the word F--- ."

I have no objection to the concern regarding the targeting of civilians, discussion on the conduct of war, etc., but its all made pointless while a pass is given to the current executive who actually does murder people, Americans, civilians, children, women, wedding goers, mourners, schools, hospitals, etc. How is it possible to have any discussion on those who say they would do this, or that, before first stopping the hemorrhaging of those who really are murdering human beings- Obama.

Arab allies, muslim allies, honest people, muslim people, non muslim people, most... have rarely seen examples where terrorists operated in a total vacuum without local aid and abetting. Don't like that fact? Its an overwhelming, terrifying reality. Islamic jihadist are almost always the tip of a spear. While the discussion should be had, positions staked out and argued for and against such policies, doing it while Obama murders people around the world in much the same way is simply degrading to the intellect.

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I had not seen this video before, nor the clips. It makes me wish he did not reprimand Fox for Fox's language. Instead, I applaud Trump to use more of the visceral language that percolates in all Americans now daily. youtube search "Origin of the word F--- ."

I have no objection to the concern regarding the targeting of civilians, discussion on the conduct of war, etc., but its all made pointless while a pass is given to the current executive who actually does murder people, Americans, civilians, children, women, wedding goers, mourners, schools, hospitals, etc. How is it possible to have any discussion on those who say they would do this, or that, before first stopping the hemorrhaging of those who really are murdering human beings- Obama.

Arab allies, muslim allies, honest people, muslim people, non muslim people, most... have rarely seen examples where terrorists operated in a total vacuum without local aid and abetting. Don't like that fact? Its an overwhelming, terrifying reality. Islamic jihadist are almost always the tip of a spear. While the discussion should be had, positions staked out and argued for and against such policies, doing it while Obama murders people around the world in much the same way is simply degrading to the intellect.

Meanwhile, in the real world......coffee1.gif

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I had not seen this video before, nor the clips. It makes me wish he did not reprimand Fox for Fox's language. Instead, I applaud Trump to use more of the visceral language that percolates in all Americans now daily. youtube search "Origin of the word F--- ."

I have no objection to the concern regarding the targeting of civilians, discussion on the conduct of war, etc., but its all made pointless while a pass is given to the current executive who actually does murder people, Americans, civilians, children, women, wedding goers, mourners, schools, hospitals, etc. How is it possible to have any discussion on those who say they would do this, or that, before first stopping the hemorrhaging of those who really are murdering human beings- Obama.

Arab allies, muslim allies, honest people, muslim people, non muslim people, most... have rarely seen examples where terrorists operated in a total vacuum without local aid and abetting. Don't like that fact? Its an overwhelming, terrifying reality. Islamic jihadist are almost always the tip of a spear. While the discussion should be had, positions staked out and argued for and against such policies, doing it while Obama murders people around the world in much the same way is simply degrading to the intellect.

Ah, we've got one. We have always known that a considerable percentage of the US populace were a bit unhinged but with the Trumpetings going on from the Republicans and the Clinterings from the Democrats, it's become obvious that there are many many Americans who are howling at the moon. When the abandonment of the Geneva convention is openly propounded and racism, sexism and torture promoted by politicians who are cheered off the stage by their supporters instead of being locked up by the authorities, I fear for America.

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I had not seen this video before, nor the clips. It makes me wish he did not reprimand Fox for Fox's language. Instead, I applaud Trump to use more of the visceral language that percolates in all Americans now daily. youtube search "Origin of the word F--- ."

I have no objection to the concern regarding the targeting of civilians, discussion on the conduct of war, etc., but its all made pointless while a pass is given to the current executive who actually does murder people, Americans, civilians, children, women, wedding goers, mourners, schools, hospitals, etc. How is it possible to have any discussion on those who say they would do this, or that, before first stopping the hemorrhaging of those who really are murdering human beings- Obama.

Arab allies, muslim allies, honest people, muslim people, non muslim people, most... have rarely seen examples where terrorists operated in a total vacuum without local aid and abetting. Don't like that fact? Its an overwhelming, terrifying reality. Islamic jihadist are almost always the tip of a spear. While the discussion should be had, positions staked out and argued for and against such policies, doing it while Obama murders people around the world in much the same way is simply degrading to the intellect.

Ah, we've got one. We have always known that a considerable percentage of the US populace were a bit unhinged but with the Trumpetings going on from the Republicans and the Clinterings from the Democrats, it's become obvious that there are many many Americans who are howling at the moon. When the abandonment of the Geneva convention is openly propounded and racism, sexism and torture promoted by politicians who are cheered off the stage by their supporters instead of being locked up by the authorities, I fear for America.

Post edited for space:

Yes. Your POV is valid, from a tortured point of view. Torture or interrogation is a slippery slope and made very palpable in the movie "Unthinkable." It remains unclear where "racism sexism" fit into the post, however.

The real issue is not whether America and the West can live and abide by their moral code while responding to the threats that face us today- We can! America can abide by a pretty solid moral code and war upon those who's aim is to destroy us. The issue is, America is not warring upon those who are at war with America. America is managing the appearance of war while it solidifies a police state at home (It doesn't matter if the police state is the goal or not, it is the fact).

No one who has actually been involved with these battles for x years this believes there is any resolve to win; certainly not so in the past 7 years. So, the urge to increase the results of this "war on terror" by accessing information from combatants is a valid and obvious first choice, but it misses the point. It is only necessary in extreme cases (Perhaps like the movie above, "Unthinkable"). The real problem is not the lack of interrogation results. The real problem is far more terrifying than that. The real problem is there is no desire... no plan... no strategy to win the war on terror. None at all. For crying out loud, the US cannot even define it and years into the Syrian/DAESH quagmire conceded it still had no strategy.

Were the West to have an actual plan, a rough outline of who the threat was, what it was, then the West could defeat its enemies and abide in its moral certainty. The race to increase interrogation is first glance appraisal because we are losing. But look closer: its not enhanced interrogation that is required. Its the will to win. There is zero.

(Note: No single terrorist in US custody has ever suffered more harm in interrogation than every single pilot and special forces soldier there is or has been since the 1960s. The entire argument against enhanced interrogation is so intellectually crippled it does not even arrive at a moral dilemma, just emotional appeal).

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The Trump fanboys should get used to these words:

Trump reverses his position on...

Because they're going to be hearing a lot over the next few months. And if he's able to get the nomination, they're going to hear it even more. He's said so many outlandish (and quite frankly, stupid) things that he'll have no choice but to walk them back. Eventually the media is going to get bored of his school yard tactics and they're going to put their sights on him and what he's said.

Trump knows nothing about domestic policy or foreign policy. He's a carnival barker who's running the Republican party into the ground for the sake of his own ego. And these dimwitted fanboys who like how he "isn't PC and speaks the truth" need to stop slurping and wake up, because we're on the express train to President Clinton cementing President Obama's legacy and stacking the Supreme Court.

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Just how high is the embarrassment level in the republican party at all of this? Now that everyone in contention has entered the mud slinging farce throwing playground insults do they not realise that they are becoming a laughing stock across the world. Anyone with integrity would have walked away long ago.

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Just how high is the embarrassment level in the republican party at all of this? Now that everyone in contention has entered the mud slinging farce throwing playground insults do they not realise that they are becoming a laughing stock across the world. Anyone with integrity would have walked away long ago.

I am a life-long Republican who comes from a long line or Republicans, and I can tell you unequivocally that the embarrassment level is extremely high. Trump and his fanboys are destroying they party and its reputation to stoke his ego and confirm their misguided ignorance. I genuinely fear for the future of the party. However, I won't walk away. It's the unwashed, mouth breathing interlopers who need to either walk away or be kicked out on their asses.

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Just looking for some clarification here. The Geneva Convention was created in 1949 with added protocols in 1977 and 2005 to govern the actions of 2 or more defined parties engaged in a war. NOT relevant in the fight against terrorism. War Crimes are defined as "an act that constitutes a serious violation of the law of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility". NOT relevant when defending yourself or your country against terrorism.

Examples of war crimes include intentionally killing civilians or prisoners, torture, wantonly destroying property, taking hostages,perfidy, rape, using child soldiers, pillaging, declaring that no quarter will be given, and using weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering.

Do any of you see ANYTHING on this list that has NOT been done by ISIS?!?!

​I say, Go Donald! Build the Safe Zones. Search and interrogate everyone wishing to enter and declare themselves as a non-combatants and then inilulate everyone who remains/refuses to be a non-combatant, as terrorists.

Just to be clear, rules of war do NOT apply when no war has ever been declared except by those wishing to commit crimes of terrorism.

​This is NOT the sole responsibility of the US. Every sitting member of the UN should be committing their armed forces to finding and eliminating the ISIS.

People around the world should be afraid of President Trump since he stands for the country and its people he's going to be elected to run and NOT for the financial interests of the few who are trying to stop him.

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Just how high is the embarrassment level in the republican party at all of this? Now that everyone in contention has entered the mud slinging farce throwing playground insults do they not realise that they are becoming a laughing stock across the world. Anyone with integrity would have walked away long ago.

I am a life-long Republican who comes from a long line or Republicans, and I can tell you unequivocally that the embarrassment level is extremely high. Trump and his fanboys are destroying they party and its reputation to stoke his ego and confirm their misguided ignorance. I genuinely fear for the future of the party. However, I won't walk away. It's the unwashed, mouth breathing interlopers who need to either walk away or be kicked out on their asses.

Expect the Republican Party to be completely restructured on a top-down basis once Trump is president.

Edited by mesquite
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