SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[Grouse]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

[cumgranosalum]

Copied from the 'Obama recommends UK stays in EU' thread:

I'm on the fence about the EU as I like some parts of it, whilst disliking other parts. I'm only different in that my dislikes have little to do with immigration (big companies realised that un-skilled jobs could be taken over by cheaper, ,foreign people a long time ago - and proceeded to do exactly that).

Obama is just saying what nearly all the wealthy say - stay in the EU, which makes me v suspicious about their motives for saying this as I don't think for one second they're saying this because it will benefit the poor in the UK.

Britain's obligations regrading immigration are for the most part outside the EU remit.........I'd hardly regard Corbyn & Co as lackeys of the rich

I thought I made it clear that my EU dislikes have little to do with immigration?

that is correct, and I thought I made it clear the immigration as little to do with UK membership of the EU.

[dick dasterdly]

Copied from the 'Obama recommends UK stays in EU' thread:

I'm on the fence about the EU as I like some parts of it, whilst disliking other parts. I'm only different in that my dislikes have little to do with immigration (big companies realised that un-skilled jobs could be taken over by cheaper, ,foreign people a long time ago - and proceeded to do exactly that).

Obama is just saying what nearly all the wealthy say - stay in the EU, which makes me v suspicious about their motives for saying this as I don't think for one second they're saying this because it will benefit the poor in the UK.

Britain's obligations regrading immigration are for the most part outside the EU remit.........I'd hardly regard Corbyn & Co as lackeys of the rich

I thought I made it clear that my EU dislikes have little to do with immigration?

that is correct, and I thought I made it clear the immigration as little to do with UK membership of the EU.

But why respond to my post (which stated that immigration had little to do with the things I dislike about the EU) with a comment about immigration being outside the EU remit?

And when I point this out - reply again about the EU and immigration??

[allanos]

DD - Clearly you do not understand the nature of critical thinking as espoused by

your antagonist in earlier posts

[Andaman Al]

Minimum qualifications to be a fighter pilot in the US Air force is a Bachelor's degree.

https://www.airforce.com/careers/detail/pilot

it is unfortunately a hallmark of those who didn't go to university they they don't actually appreciate what educated means. They frequently confuse training with education.

A degree is by no means guarantee against stupidity, and many without a University eduction learn in other ways....but those who haven't clearly show their lack of understanding by proclaiming irrelevancies such as income or training which they naively mistake for criteria of success.

However the one thing that really sticks out amongst those who went to the "University of Life" or "school of Hard Knocks" is that they are pretty much completely unaware of and unversed in the techniques of critical thinking. This is something that you are unlikely to pick up outside a tertiary educational establishment.

What a pretentious p****. Is that critical thinking enough for you. You display the most classic traits of an uneducated person that thinks they are educated. I need to leave, I want to throw up.

QED - your post perfectly encapsulates the points I was trying to make

It gets funnier. I saw the reply above when you first posted it. The reply was simply QED. You then felt the need to edit it to add " your post perfectly encapsulates the points I was trying to make" i guess just incase you thought anyone without a degree earlier in life may not have understood what QED meant. It drives home the absolute accuracy of my previous post to you.

[chiang mai]

A MUST read:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-the-verdict-on-both-sides-of-the-campaign-you-can-t-believe-either-of-them-a6999166.html

And this is quite refreshing on the Pound what if:

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/exchange-rate-forecasts/4361-ebury-forecast-for-the-pound-in-event-of-brexit

Edited April 24, 2016 by chiang mai

[Kwasaki]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

[cumgranosalum]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

"don't see what history has to do with it" - QED

[billd766]

I worked in a neighbouring country for a while last year and the paperwork etc was daunting, but worst of all I couldn't take my car and property with me.....I think that those who work in Europe don't realise how that door will close for many of them.

It must have changed since 1999 as I worked just outside Paris in 1999/2000 for 7 months and then moved on to Germany in 2000/2001 and I had no problems driving my UK registered car in either country.

I don't understand what you mean by property though.

I also paid income tax and had bank accounts in both countries as well.

My wife got a 3 month visitors visa for France but they wouldn't grant her a longer term visa, and and when I was in Germany she also registered for and got an ausweiss with no trouble at all.

Edited April 25, 2016 by billd766

[dick dasterdly]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Whether or not the UK will have trade problems if it leaves the EU is an unknown. Personally I suspect that if the UK leaves, other countries will follow, but again its an unknown.

The only good argument (and its a v good argument) IMO is that the Brit govt will have free reign to make conditions even harder for the poor, working class.

Edited April 25, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[elgordo38]

Copied from the 'Obama recommends UK stays in EU' thread:

I'm on the fence about the EU as I like some parts of it, whilst disliking other parts. I'm only different in that my dislikes have little to do with immigration (big companies realised that un-skilled jobs could be taken over by cheaper, ,foreign people a long time ago - and proceeded to do exactly that).

Obama is just saying what nearly all the wealthy say - stay in the EU, which makes me v suspicious about their motives for saying this as I don't think for one second they're saying this because it will benefit the poor in the UK.

Your exactly right. Even though Obama is a Democrat he is still in the pocket of the business cartel. In Hannover he as much as stated that free trade deals hurt the worker who is making a livable wage but he states we must all make sacrifices for the "greater good" and anybody with a grade 8 education knows what that is. He is on his way out trying to leave a legacy of good behind. His words now seem to ring truer and not so hollow as he longer gives a <deleted>.

[elgordo38]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Whether or not the UK will have trade problems if it leaves the EU is an unknown. Personally I suspect that if the UK leaves, other countries will follow, but again its an unknown.

The only good argument (and its a v good argument) IMO is that the Brit govt will have free reign to make conditions even harder for the poor, working class.

Congratulations Dick your only the 2nd one of the many comments to get it right. They will have free reign and access to all the immigrates flooding Europe to provide cheap labor for all their business buddies. Look at the US with people thinking the great white hope Trump is going to lead them into the promised land. There is no promised land only servitude at low wages till your dead as there will be no retirement just work work work.

[dick dasterdly]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Whether or not the UK will have trade problems if it leaves the EU is an unknown. Personally I suspect that if the UK leaves, other countries will follow, but again its an unknown.

The only good argument (and its a v good argument) IMO is that the Brit govt will have free reign to make conditions even harder for the poor, working class.

Congratulations Dick your only the 2nd one of the many comments to get it right. They will have free reign and access to all the immigrates flooding Europe to provide cheap labor for all their business buddies. Look at the US with people thinking the great white hope Trump is going to lead them into the promised land. There is no promised land only servitude at low wages till your dead as there will be no retirement just work work work.

But the thing is, its not only European immigrants - some service call centres have already been out-sourced to India.

The Brit government has made it v clear that it doesn't care about anything other than profits for big business and, of course, their own individual profits. At least the EU has dented this a little with maximum hours worked etc. Exceptions have been made to this rule...., but things could be a lot worse if the EU hadn't forced the UK into some sort of workers' rights.

Which is why I'm still on the fence about Brexit - especially in view of my previous post about those who think the UK should stay have come up with nothing other than scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave and sterling will fall - affecting income from the UK.

Edited April 25, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[rogeroc]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Probably like most posters on here i am no economist so i have to look at other reasons to come to a decision. Some of my reasons for remaining in are:.

Guaranteed freedom for UK citizens to be able to continue to move as they like in Europe

I am no great fan of politicians but both the main political parties recommend staying in.

The IMF recommend staying in

The massive bulk of UK industry recommend staying in.

Although 2 to 1 posters here are in favour of Brexit i believe their arguments are generally more emotive than of substance and are weaker.

These reasons are good enough for me.

[dick dasterdly]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Probably like most posters on here i am no economist so i have to look at other reasons to come to a decision. Some of my reasons for remaining in are:.

Guaranteed freedom for UK citizens to be able to continue to move as they like in Europe

I am no great fan of politicians but both the main political parties recommend staying in.

The IMF recommend staying in

The massive bulk of UK industry recommend staying in.

Although 2 to 1 posters here are in favour of Brexit i believe their arguments are generally more emotive than of substance and are weaker.

These reasons are good enough for me.

Thanks rogeroc and I appreciate your comments, but none of them benefit the average working person - and far less the poor, working class in any way. Unless of course, you believe in the 'trickle down' idea.

Politicians, bankers, big business and the like being in favour of staying 'in' are a negative for me - because I think they are only concerned with their own personal interests.

But I agree that those Brits working in the EU would suffer if the UK voted to withdraw.

[Linzz]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Probably like most posters on here i am no economist so i have to look at other reasons to come to a decision. Some of my reasons for remaining in are:.

Guaranteed freedom for UK citizens to be able to continue to move as they like in Europe

I am no great fan of politicians but both the main political parties recommend staying in.

The IMF recommend staying in

The massive bulk of UK industry recommend staying in.

Although 2 to 1 posters here are in favour of Brexit i believe their arguments are generally more emotive than of substance and are weaker.

These reasons are good enough for me.

Thanks rogeroc and I appreciate your comments, but none of them benefit the average working person - and far less the poor, working class in any way. Unless of course, you believe in the 'trickle down' idea.

Politicians, bankers, big business and the like being in favour of staying 'in' are a negative for me - because I think they are only concerned with their own personal interests.

But I agree that those Brits working in the EU would suffer if the UK voted to withdraw.

Not all business owners in that camp.

"THE European Union needs Britain more than we need them" according to eurosceptic business mogul Theo Paphitis.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/645539/European-Union-needs-Britain-more-than-we-need-them-Dragons-Den-Theo-Paphitis-blasts

British reliance on trade with the EU fallen to an all time low

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

Edited April 25, 2016 by Linzz

[dick dasterdly]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Probably like most posters on here i am no economist so i have to look at other reasons to come to a decision. Some of my reasons for remaining in are:.

Guaranteed freedom for UK citizens to be able to continue to move as they like in Europe

I am no great fan of politicians but both the main political parties recommend staying in.

The IMF recommend staying in

The massive bulk of UK industry recommend staying in.

Although 2 to 1 posters here are in favour of Brexit i believe their arguments are generally more emotive than of substance and are weaker.

These reasons are good enough for me.

Thanks rogeroc and I appreciate your comments, but none of them benefit the average working person - and far less the poor, working class in any way. Unless of course, you believe in the 'trickle down' idea.

Politicians, bankers, big business and the like being in favour of staying 'in' are a negative for me - because I think they are only concerned with their own personal interests.

But I agree that those Brits working in the EU would suffer if the UK voted to withdraw.

Not all business owners in that camp.

"THE European Union needs Britain more than we need them" according to eurosceptic business mogul Theo Paphitis.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/645539/European-Union-needs-Britain-more-than-we-need-them-Dragons-Den-Theo-Paphitis-blasts

British reliance on trade with the EU fallen to an all time low

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

Thanks for that. I ignored the business mogul's comments, but read the Telegraph comments - even though the Telegraph is more establishment than establishment itself .

[allanos]

Surely it is axiomatic that whichever way the voting goes, and from wherever the opinions

emanate regarding a "Brexit" or a "Bremain" (e.g. the Government, business, trade and economic

bodies' endorsements), that these are self-serving in some way. EVERYONE has some kind of

Agenda of their own; no one is recommending, or intending to vote, "stay" or "leave" for altruistic

purposes, but purely how they believe they, themselves (and perhaps their families) will fare or be

affected either by being "in" or "out" of the EU going forward.

Despite the media polls which are showing a strong lead for B-remain as opposed to Br-exit, one

wonders what the actual physical turn out of voters (other than postal votes, etc) will be on

Voting Day.

It is one thing to say to a telephone pollster how you "would" vote, but another altogether to

get off your butt and proceed to a voting station and put your "X" in your chosen "box" on Ballot Day.

The final result may come down to voter motivation. It is well known, for example, that Labour

Votes diminish if it is raining on a particular Election Day as opposed to Tory support which is

largely not similarly affected. Voter motivation, in one form or another, may be key to the final

outcome.

[Grouse]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

With respect, if you don't have a very good idea about 20th century European history it's impossible to make an informed decision

There are MANY issues involved, not least of which is the peace dividend since the coal and steel federation.

[dick dasterdly]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

With respect, if you don't have a very good idea about 20th century European history it's impossible to make an informed decision

There are MANY issues involved, not least of which is the peace dividend since the coal and steel federation.

Yes, coal and steel workers have thrived in the UK.

Although their demise has nothing to do with the EU - it was a Brit govt. that ensured this.

[Grouse]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Whether or not the UK will have trade problems if it leaves the EU is an unknown. Personally I suspect that if the UK leaves, other countries will follow, but again its an unknown.

The only good argument (and its a v good argument) IMO is that the Brit govt will have free reign to make conditions even harder for the poor, working class.

One of the big problems is the case on either side is not being explained fully

It's a complex issue in my opinion

EU and predecessors have provided peace. And, that for many is a key point

Trade these days is all about trading blocks. EU is the biggest

Being in any club confers benefits but also responsibilities. The NET fee is peanuts compared to benefits received

EU soft power is massive. We can face down anyone. Iran? Russia?

I agree the lack of democracy is a problem. We should take the whole of the Brussels team down to Runnymead and dictate terms

Finally, a key thing for me is European social democracy is MUCH nicer than American capitalism. I would not recommend raising a family in the USA, but Europe is much more civilised. Huglig, Gemutlicheit and so on, but that's just me

I think many of my compatriots have the wrong target. It's not a problem with Europe; it's a problem with multiculturalism

[Linzz]

Obama has used scare tactics to support Cameron's betrayal of the sovereignty of his own country to Brussels. Britain will be at "the back of the queue" if it leaves the EU according to Obama. No way would America surrender it's sovereignty to another jurisdiction like the United Nations

.

Actually Brexit would hurt Europe more than the other way around.there are more trade deals with the USA than with Europe. Obama wants to visit the Queen but does he really want to nullify her role as head of Parliament? Does Cameron even ask the Queen if she wants political surrender? The majority of laws come from Brussels and financial policy from Draghi's (ex Goldman Sach's) ECBank with low to negative interest rates which will wipe out savings and pensions while the smart banks are creaming it.

Brexit before a meltdown. There's friction already between ECB and Germany over negative interest rates

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21640360-tensions-are-rising-between-germany-and-european-central-bank-berlin-v-frankfurt

[dick dasterdly]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Whether or not the UK will have trade problems if it leaves the EU is an unknown. Personally I suspect that if the UK leaves, other countries will follow, but again its an unknown.

The only good argument (and its a v good argument) IMO is that the Brit govt will have free reign to make conditions even harder for the poor, working class.

One of the big problems is the case on either side is not being explained fully

Couldn't agree more, the arguments seem to be nothing more than scaremongering

It's a complex issue in my opinion

Agree again

EU and predecessors have provided peace. And, that for many is a key point

Not really, Yugoslavia springs to mind

Trade these days is all about trading blocks. EU is the biggest

An opinion - some small countries get by just fine without being part of a block

Being in any club confers benefits but also responsibilities. The NET fee is peanuts compared to benefits received

Precisely how?

EU soft power is massive. We can face down anyone. Iran? Russia?

We certainly faced down Iraq, which at the end of the day didn't help them or us. Afghanistan is another example as is Libya. Not convinced that this has achieved anything more than minor improvements in the lives of the citizens. They were all great politically though...

I agree the lack of democracy is a problem. We should take the whole of the Brussels team down to Runnymead and dictate terms

Finally, a key thing for me is European social democracy is MUCH nicer than American capitalism. I would not recommend raising a family in the USA, but Europe is much more civilised. Huglig, Gemutlicheit and so on, but that's just me

Agree with the preceding para

I think many of my compatriots have the wrong target. It's not a problem with Europe; it's a problem with multiculturalism

Disagree entirely, as its focusing on immigration again rather than the corruption and waste of money endemic in the EU

[dick dasterdly]

p.s. Even though I disagree with most of your points - thank you for putting forward reasons that can be debated rather than the drivel that has been spouted over the last couple of pages. I.e. 'those voting no are stupid/uneducated/unable to reason' etc. etc.

[nontabury]

I'm still searching for good arguments for the UK to remain in the corrupt, expensive EU - as opposed to scaremongering/only the stupid think the UK should leave/sterling will fall, affecting your pension payments.

Probably like most posters on here i am no economist so i have to look at other reasons to come to a decision. Some of my reasons for remaining in are:.

Guaranteed freedom for UK citizens to be able to continue to move as they like in Europe

I am no great fan of politicians but both the main political parties recommend staying in.

The IMF recommend staying in

The massive bulk of UK industry recommend staying in.

Although 2 to 1 posters here are in favour of Brexit i believe their arguments are generally more emotive than of substance and are weaker.

These reasons are good enough for me.

According to that very same IMF the EU banks have a massive 715Billion black hole in their books?just Waite while the s--t hits the fan.In the meantime the EU central bank are printing money ( quantities easing ) as if there will be no tomorrow.

Maybe a good idea for you, read up on what the Eurocrats in Brussel are dreaming up for the future of the EU.

[nontabury]

Surely it is axiomatic that whichever way the voting goes, and from wherever the opinions

emanate regarding a "Brexit" or a "Bremain" (e.g. the Government, business, trade and economic

bodies' endorsements), that these are self-serving in some way. EVERYONE has some kind of

Agenda of their own; no one is recommending, or intending to vote, "stay" or "leave" for altruistic

purposes, but purely how they believe they, themselves (and perhaps their families) will fare or be

affected either by being "in" or "out" of the EU going forward.

Despite the media polls which are showing a strong lead for B-remain as opposed to Br-exit, one

wonders what the actual physical turn out of voters (other than postal votes, etc) will be on

Voting Day.

It is one thing to say to a telephone pollster how you "would" vote, but another altogether to

get off your butt and proceed to a voting station and put your "X" in your chosen "box" on Ballot Day.

The final result may come down to voter motivation. It is well known, for example, that Labour

Votes diminish if it is raining on a particular Election Day as opposed to Tory support which is

largely not similarly affected. Voter motivation, in one form or another, may be key to the final

outcome.

There is also the fact that Postal voting is now being abused. I suspect this will benefit the remain camp. Another factor is the general publics apathy,many don't know of the consequences of what a remain vote will entail, the same as I and many others in 1975.

[Grouse]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

With respect, if you don't have a very good idea about 20th century European history it's impossible to make an informed decision

There are MANY issues involved, not least of which is the peace dividend since the coal and steel federation.

Yes, coal and steel workers have thrived in the UK.

Although their demise has nothing to do with the EU - it was a Brit govt. that ensured this.

The coal and steel federation was formed just after the war primarily to bind France, Germany and Italy together. It morphed eventually into the EU

As I say, how can anyone vote without understanding the history ?

[nontabury]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

With respect, if you don't have a very good idea about 20th century European history it's impossible to make an informed decision

There are MANY issues involved, not least of which is the peace dividend since the coal and steel federation.

Yes, coal and steel workers have thrived in the UK.

Although their demise has nothing to do with the EU - it was a Brit govt. that ensured this.

The coal and steel federation was formed just after the war primarily to bind France, Germany and Italy together. It morphed eventually into the EU

As I say, how can anyone vote without understanding the history [emoji55]

I cannot agree with your use of the word " morphed " it would have been more correct to say the politicians Deceived the people. In what is called called

Managed democracy. A bit like Thailand.

[Grouse]

Economist Brexit poll of polls reporting

Remain 51%

Out 40%

Undecided 9%

I give up trying to have a serious discussion here. Too much ill informed bile. Embarrassing that my countrymen know so little history

With respect don't see what history has to do with it, to me it's just a simply case of whether English people living in England want their country they live in to rule itself or belong to a sort of club.

With respect, if you don't have a very good idea about 20th century European history it's impossible to make an informed decision

There are MANY issues involved, not least of which is the peace dividend since the coal and steel federation.

Yes, coal and steel workers have thrived in the UK.

Although their demise has nothing to do with the EU - it was a Brit govt. that ensured this.

The coal and steel federation was formed just after the war primarily to bind France, Germany and Italy together. It morphed eventually into the EU

As I say, how can anyone vote without understanding the history [emoji55]

I cannot agree with your use of the word " morphed " it would have been more correct to say the politicians Deceived the people. In what is called called

Managed democracy. A bit like Thailand.

Ancient Greek morphe to shape or form. Sorry for the slang. I was referring to the fact that what we have today follows several changes since the post war years. IMHO it is important to understand the history so that one can understand why things are as they are ?

Edited April 26, 2016 by Grouse

[Grouse]

http://www.economist.com/Brexit

This gives pretty much all the info you need to make an informed decision

Please read and digest!