‘Do you think we’ll pay for bad things we’ve done?’ Revelations of Aussie sex tourists in Thailand

[Johnniey]

Without us they would all live on the streets. I see it as we are helping them, as the Thai society isn't. No laws that makes fathers pay for the children's. No social securities. 90% of tourists are here for sex. That boosts the society.

So no. The Lord isn't going to punish me for helping these ladies give food and shelter for their baby and family.

And i don't care what people think about my statement. What options would the girls have unemployed. With a baby. Uneducated. This is a go_______t failure. A social structure failure. An educational failure. An cultural behaviour that accepts this.

They have accepted this and so have i.

Damn this is going to be quoted a lot hahaha!

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

The issue is not about enjoying yourself or the native Americans.

What you think is kindness and respect is clearly NOT, according to the experts, which you are not. YOU are adding to the psychological problems of young women. If that makes you feel like you have some integrity, fine.

[spidermike007]

Without us they would all live on the streets. I see it as we are helping them, as the Thai society isn't. No laws that makes fathers pay for the children's. No social securities. 90% of tourists are here for sex. That boosts the society.

So no. The Lord isn't going to punish me for helping these ladies give food and shelter for their baby and family.

And i don't care what people think about my statement. What options would the girls have unemployed. With a baby. Uneducated. This is a go_______t failure. A social structure failure. An educational failure. An cultural behaviour that accepts this.

They have accepted this and so have i.

Damn this is going to be quoted a lot hahaha!

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

The issue is not about enjoying yourself or the native Americans.

What you think is kindness and respect is clearly NOT, according to the experts, which you are not. YOU are adding to the psychological problems of young women. If that makes you feel like you have some integrity, fine.

Thanks. This is the first time you have uttered the word fine. Perhaps you are learning that wonderful quality of tolerance? It is such an attractive asset to have, in this life. Live and let live? Have you ever heard that expression?

For some of us, the extreme judgment leveled by guys like you, at the rest of the world is so tiresome. So trite, and so naive. You are not changing anything with your judgments. You are not bringing out positive change in the world one iota. There is not a single man who listens to your sermons, who is ever going to be affected by them. And you know why? There is nothing behind them. Just alot of hot air, and no moral conviction. Just prudish opinions, and feminist diatribes.

Some of us know the difference between kindness and respect, and treating a woman poorly. In your opinion treating a woman very kindly, but then paying her for sex is not kindness. But, getting abused by a western woman, who you are having sex with, in exchange for all kinds of gifts and prizes, is somehow permissible, and encouraged.

I only listen to some experts. Not all. As many of us know, the vast majority of the experts are typically wrong, on any particular subject. Is it even possible for your to process that thought?

And by the way, the term Native Americans refers to American Indians. Cherokees, Iroquois, Navajo, Apache. Is that who you were referencing?

Edited July 6, 2016 by spidermike007

[Winniedapu]

Without us they would all live on the streets. I see it as we are helping them, as the Thai society isn't. No laws that makes fathers pay for the children's. No social securities. 90% of tourists are here for sex. That boosts the society.

So no. The Lord isn't going to punish me for helping these ladies give food and shelter for their baby and family.

And i don't care what people think about my statement. What options would the girls have unemployed. With a baby. Uneducated. This is a go_______t failure. A social structure failure. An educational failure. An cultural behaviour that accepts this.

They have accepted this and so have i.

Damn this is going to be quoted a lot hahaha!

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

Don't disagree with much of what you say, even though my own thoughts may differ slightly.

But I think you are wrong when you say that society is evolving, except in the broadest possible terms. In my opinion, society is fragmenting and becoming less cohesive and has been for about 30 years. It's always been cyclical - a spiral function not a circular function, and right now, society seems to be on a down-swing. It will recover but it still has more fragmentation to do first. I doubt I will see the beginning of the upswing - you might but I'm pretty sure I won't.

My opinion.

Winnie.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Winniedapu

[GAZZPA]

Without us they would all live on the streets. I see it as we are helping them, as the Thai society isn't. No laws that makes fathers pay for the children's. No social securities. 90% of tourists are here for sex. That boosts the society.

So no. The Lord isn't going to punish me for helping these ladies give food and shelter for their baby and family.

And i don't care what people think about my statement. What options would the girls have unemployed. With a baby. Uneducated. This is a go_______t failure. A social structure failure. An educational failure. An cultural behaviour that accepts this.

They have accepted this and so have i.

Damn this is going to be quoted a lot hahaha!

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

The issue is not about enjoying yourself or the native Americans.

What you think is kindness and respect is clearly NOT, according to the experts, which you are not. YOU are adding to the psychological problems of young women. If that makes you feel like you have some integrity, fine.

Thanks. This is the first time you have uttered the word fine. Perhaps you are learning that wonderful quality of tolerance? It is such an attractive asset to have, in this life. Live and let live? Have you ever heard that expression?

For some of us, the extreme judgment leveled by guys like you, at the rest of the world is so tiresome. So trite, and so naive. You are not changing anything with your judgments. You are not bringing out positive change in the world one iota. There is not a single man who listens to your sermons, who is ever going to be affected by them. And you know why? There is nothing behind them. Just alot of hot air, and no moral conviction. Just prudish opinions, and feminist diatribes.

Some of us know the difference between kindness and respect, and treating a woman poorly. In your opinion treating a woman very kindly, but then paying her for sex is not kindness. But, getting abused by a western woman, who you are having sex with, in exchange for all kinds of gifts and prizes, is somehow permissible, and encouraged.

I only listen to some experts. Not all. As many of us know, the vast majority of the experts are typically wrong, on any particular subject. Is it even possible for your to process that thought?

And by the way, the term Native Americans refers to American Indians. Cherokees, Iroquois, Navajo, Apache. Is that who you were referencing?

On this forum there are plenty of people tolerating the sex industry, but i assure you we are not the minority, you most certainly are. And I have listened to Johnniey and I think he speaks the truth and applies, logic and common sense to the information he has.

So, carry on in your dream world, I guess thats why you are in Thailand because very few other places you could probably afford to live that would offer you so much cheap sex from poor farm girls. As people often say, "Paradise".

Live and let live, yes, if they are not hurting someone else or in your case contributing to the damaging industry that is the sex industry. So tolerate "everything"? Absolutely no, you may do so but don't expect all of us to agree with you either.

And by the way, few people will be listening to you, I was in disbelief with the comments from many on this site, so shared them with a few people back home. Won't quote you the full responses but I will tell you these words were used,,,"pigs","perverts", "scumbags","losers" etc, I'm sure you get the picture.

People like you will never change anything, the people who make the noise are the one who DO make the difference in the end. so crawl back into your hole and keep your insults to yourself.

[daoyai]

"people back home. Won't quote you the full responses but I will tell you these words were used,,,"pigs","perverts", "scumbags","losers ...................crawl back into your hole and keep your insults to yourself" Gazzpa quote.

Classic hipocritical Gazzpa, and here I thought you were making progress. You are in a foreign culture. you have brought YOUR cultural bias and are attacking other expats for accepting the local culture. Pleases answer honestly, are you now or have you ever been a missionary or affiliated with a missionary organization?

Edited July 6, 2016 by daoyai

[Throatwobbler]

Looks like many posters are living in denial or else are angry about the shallowness of their lives being pointed out.

[cumgranosalum]

"people back home. Won't quote you the full responses but I will tell you these words were used,,,"pigs","perverts", "scumbags","losers ...................crawl back into your hole and keep your insults to yourself" Gazzpa quote.

Classic hipocritical Gazzpa, and here I thought you were making progress. You are in a foreign culture. you have brought YOUR cultural bias and are attacking other expats for accepting the local culture. Pleases answer honestly, are you now or have you ever been a missionary or affiliated with a missionary organization?

classic misuse of the word culture as a sort of catchall defence to justify behaviour that is quite unacceptable at home.

[Winniedapu]

Without us they would all live on the streets. I see it as we are helping them, as the Thai society isn't. No laws that makes fathers pay for the children's. No social securities. 90% of tourists are here for sex. That boosts the society.

So no. The Lord isn't going to punish me for helping these ladies give food and shelter for their baby and family.

And i don't care what people think about my statement. What options would the girls have unemployed. With a baby. Uneducated. This is a go_______t failure. A social structure failure. An educational failure. An cultural behaviour that accepts this.

They have accepted this and so have i.

Damn this is going to be quoted a lot hahaha!

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

The issue is not about enjoying yourself or the native Americans.

What you think is kindness and respect is clearly NOT, according to the experts, which you are not. YOU are adding to the psychological problems of young women. If that makes you feel like you have some integrity, fine.

Thanks. This is the first time you have uttered the word fine. Perhaps you are learning that wonderful quality of tolerance? It is such an attractive asset to have, in this life. Live and let live? Have you ever heard that expression?

For some of us, the extreme judgment leveled by guys like you, at the rest of the world is so tiresome. So trite, and so naive. You are not changing anything with your judgments. You are not bringing out positive change in the world one iota. There is not a single man who listens to your sermons, who is ever going to be affected by them. And you know why? There is nothing behind them. Just alot of hot air, and no moral conviction. Just prudish opinions, and feminist diatribes.

Some of us know the difference between kindness and respect, and treating a woman poorly. In your opinion treating a woman very kindly, but then paying her for sex is not kindness. But, getting abused by a western woman, who you are having sex with, in exchange for all kinds of gifts and prizes, is somehow permissible, and encouraged.

I only listen to some experts. Not all. As many of us know, the vast majority of the experts are typically wrong, on any particular subject. Is it even possible for your to process that thought?

And by the way, the term Native Americans refers to American Indians. Cherokees, Iroquois, Navajo, Apache. Is that who you were referencing?

I don't think there's very much doubt that most women would not join a profession which requires them to sleep with whatever man comes along, providing he has the price of a session in his pocket. Many girls become accustomed to the benefits of such a lifestyle, but given the choice would not live it, and, as we know, many women in Thailand try to escape this lifestyle by marrying one of their clients. I don't make any comment about the likely success or otherwise of that decision; I imagine it depends how long they've been immersed in the lifestyle, and what the motivations are to exit it.

Most men who claim that the majority of women do not suffer psychological damage as a consequence of their profession as a prostitute, are actually trying to diminish a sense of self-loathing rather than trying to properly assess that damage.To offer this view voluntarily, seems at best naive, and at worst self-deception. There is sufficient evidence available for this not to be in doubt.

Of course, you are entitled to hold whatever opinion you wish, for whatever reason you wish, but to suggest that the majority of experts are wrong the majority of the time is frankly hard to understand. Knowledge changes and what appears to be right today can appear to be quite wrong tomorrow. But to claim on that basis, that the many reports that attest to a life of prostitution causing psychological damage to women can safely be set aside, could easily be just another mitigation of self-loathing.

I'm quite sure you won't agree with this post, but it is what it is. I think it's a mistake to write as you did in response to Johnnley's brief, and to me, eminently sensible contribution, That's a surprise to me, because I usually find myself in agreement with your posts. But not this time..

I will not criticise people for their lifestyle choices, I will merely say that this one would not be my preference. I will not condemn people for wishing to diminish their own self-loathing because of their lifestyle, I will merely note that is what they're doing. This may or may not apply to you personally, it is not meant as a personal comment, and I hope you haven't taken it that way. As I say, I normally find a great deal to agree with in your posts.

Winnie

Edited July 6, 2016 by Winniedapu

[cumgranosalum]

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

The issue is not about enjoying yourself or the native Americans.

What you think is kindness and respect is clearly NOT, according to the experts, which you are not. YOU are adding to the psychological problems of young women. If that makes you feel like you have some integrity, fine.

Thanks. This is the first time you have uttered the word fine. Perhaps you are learning that wonderful quality of tolerance? It is such an attractive asset to have, in this life. Live and let live? Have you ever heard that expression?

For some of us, the extreme judgment leveled by guys like you, at the rest of the world is so tiresome. So trite, and so naive. You are not changing anything with your judgments. You are not bringing out positive change in the world one iota. There is not a single man who listens to your sermons, who is ever going to be affected by them. And you know why? There is nothing behind them. Just alot of hot air, and no moral conviction. Just prudish opinions, and feminist diatribes.

Some of us know the difference between kindness and respect, and treating a woman poorly. In your opinion treating a woman very kindly, but then paying her for sex is not kindness. But, getting abused by a western woman, who you are having sex with, in exchange for all kinds of gifts and prizes, is somehow permissible, and encouraged.

I only listen to some experts. Not all. As many of us know, the vast majority of the experts are typically wrong, on any particular subject. Is it even possible for your to process that thought?

And by the way, the term Native Americans refers to American Indians. Cherokees, Iroquois, Navajo, Apache. Is that who you were referencing?

I don't think there's very much doubt that most women would not join a profession which requires them to sleep with whatever man comes along, providing he has the price of a session in his pocket. Many girls become accustomed to the benefits of such a lifestyle, but given the choice would not live it, and, as we know, many women in Thailand try to escape this lifestyle by marrying one of their clients. I don't make any comment about the likely success or otherwise of that decision; I imagine it depends how long they've been immersed in the lifestyle, and what the motivations are to exit it.

Most men who claim that the majority of women do not suffer psychological damage as a consequence of their profession as a prostitute, are actually trying to diminish a sense of self-loathing rather than trying to properly assess that damage.To offer this view voluntarily, seems at best naive, and at worst self-deception. There is sufficient evidence available for this not to be in doubt.

Of course, you are entitled to hold whatever opinion you wish, for whatever reason you wish, but to suggest that the majority of experts are wrong the majority of the time is frankly hard to understand. Knowledge changes and what appears to be right today can appear to be quite wrong tomorrow. But to claim on that basis, that the many reports that attest to a life of prostitution causing psychological damage to women can safely be set aside, could easily be just another mitigation of self-loathing.

I'm quite sure you won't agree with this post, but it is what it is. I think it's a mistake to write as you did in response to Johnnley's brief, and to me, eminently sensible contribution, That's a surprise to me, because I usually find myself in agreement with your posts. But not this time..

I will not criticise people for their lifestyle choices, I will merely say that this one would not be my preference. I will not condemn people for wishing to diminish their own self-loathing because of their lifestyle, I will merely note that is what they're doing. This may or may not apply to you personally, it is not meant as a personal comment, and I hope you haven't taken it that way. As I say, I normally find a great deal to agree with in your posts.

Winnie

"many women in Thailand try to escape this lifestyle by marrying one of their clients." a most salient point.

[cumgranosalum]

One of the most interesting threads ever on TV......a lot has been said that hasn't been well articulated before yet needed to be said.

[dhream]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thousands clearly don't.

Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

It's legal in Singapore that most pragmatic of places. Should be legal here too. Paradoxically it protects the workers. Prostitution here is a choice like any other job.

Trafficking is a different animal.

Edited July 6, 2016 by dhream

[cumgranosalum]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thpusands clearly don't.

Finally. Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

"Finally. Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work." - I hope you aren't suggesting that this in any way mitigates or justifies the Thai sex industry?

As for you analogy with other addictions - you have a point - for instance, it is a classic symptom of alcoholics that they refuse to admit/see that they are alcoholics - In fact they say the first step to cure is admitting to yourself that you are an alcoholic, so presumably that would require the same approach for those "addicted" to sex - first they have to admit it....I guess then the more publicity threads like this get, the more likely these chaps are to realise their own problem?

[dhream]

Well actually, yes I am saying it justifies the sex industry.

In modern Thailand, no one needs to

sell themselves.

I'm not denying trafficking is evil. I'm not suggesting the way it's run is justifiable. But you cannot prohibit your way out of social problems. Sex drugs etc. Legalise shine light on the criminality and let workers and clients make their own choices.

[dhream]

One of the most interesting threads ever on TV......a lot has been said that hasn't been well articulated before yet needed to be said.

While I may disagree with how sex work is mismanaged by most societies.

I found the angle on the men themselves to be quite revealing and there's no small element of truth in what was said by both the 'white knight' and the punters.

I first came to Thailand as an innocent. I eventually dabbled. It's a commodity and it's traded like any other. My position on the morality of it has been aired. Legalisation is the antidote to trafficking. No problem was ever solved by driving it underground. Trafficking is a problem legal sex work is not.

[jak2002003]

If all parties are legal age and consenting there is no problem. If the sex industry was legalised it would only be a positive thing, for the people in this kind of work.

I personally I don't like prostitution, and I have low opinions of the kind of people who frequent these places, but that is my personal view, for my personal lifestyle. I have no right to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do with their lives.

I don't like it even more when Christian freaks start interfering with things they have no understand about.. and they have their own twisted agenda for 'helping' their 'poor innocent delicate abused women'. Same reason they have to helping the hill tribe 'orphans' and trying to get Thais to attend the local Church and give up they religion.

I am not ashamed to say I have several good friends who work in the sex industry. I can assure you they were never being exploited, in fact they do at great job of exploiting their unsuspecting customers. And there are many well qualified sex workers too, but they choose to do their current job, rather than a lower paying or more boring or time consuming 'normal' job. Its not only women that do these jobs, there are many men, straight and gay, but these are not 'helped and rescued' by the kind Christian folk... as they are not as pretty I suspect.

This is a difficult and dangerous kind of job for anyone to do. It can be the ruin of many peoples lives. But at the end of the day we all have the right to choose to live how we want. If they would rather work in the sex industry rather than in the supermarket, office, or on the farm, than that's the choice they make, and many make a very good living from it.

We have no right to tell people what they do is wrong or force them to do other jobs.

Each to his / her own.

Edited July 6, 2016 by jak2002003

[freestyle]

I was in Pattaya recently, and all the hookers were complaining because now is low season so they have only little bit of customers.
Some girls who didn't have a customer for 3 days looked seriously depressed because they needed money.
(they make it up in high season, but since many are not smart savers, low season can be tough)

If customers don't come, what are they gonna do? They clearly don't want to do anything else (normal job)
They don't want to be "helped". They just want to have more customers for boomboom, so the big money keeps coming.

They choose the path wathever they think is best for them. If other alternatives would be better or "less damaging" for them, they would choose that.
Oviously the alternatives they know would mean more "suffering", if not, they would change immediately, because people tend to walk the path of least resistance.
But there aren't any that they think is better, and not any of you judgemental people are offering new alternatives to these girls...

Your judging doesn't help them, it only puts them down.
You (gazz, johnny, ... dudes) have nothing to offer them, so there is nothing heroic in your preachings.

Edited July 6, 2016 by freestyle

[dhream]

Acually Gazzy, i am quite sensitive and have some experience in this area, I have known damaged people, I know many Thai girls are raped as children and crave a safe environment but turn off their emotions to survive in the bar scene, many are horny sanook girls that love the freedom and have multiple orgasms with their vigorous clients. Many men are affraid of intimacy and rejection. for good reason Some are now 'mgtows" to avoid the marriage trap and the femenazis.... it is a complex and nuanced world out there and nowhere near as simple (good and bad) as you seem to think. You are so wrong about so much, I do "give a shit" and think any girl, lady, woman or ladyboy that does not want to be in the trade should be given an opportunity to find alternate employment or education.

It seems the real action these days is on tinder and Thai friendly, the bar scene is so 20th century.

Agreed. The moral police unwittingly pander to the real evildoers.

Ifor it was legal. Women would not be forced into it.

They always conveniently forget many women who would have promiscuous sex for free. It's all about women's rights over their bodies UNTIL one of those women admits she enjoys her work (and for some it's not work at all). where are those women's rights to trade their company for a very good living relative to the average shop clerk?

If all the girls Ivery met in the industry 'hated' it, then they're better actors than Meryl Streep or Dame Judy.

Tired of fixing typos. It's a tiny phone.

Edited July 6, 2016 by dhream

[dhream]

I was in Pattaya recently, and all the hookers were complaining because now is low season so they have only little bit of customers.

Some girls who didn't have a customer for 3 days looked seriously depressed because they needed money.

(they make it up in high season, but since many are not smart savers, low season can be tough)

If customers don't come, what are they gonna do? They clearly don't want to do anything else (normal job)

They don't want to be "helped". They just want to have more customers for boomboom, so the big money keeps coming.

They choose the path wathever they think is best for them. If other alternatives would be better or "less damaging" for them, they would choose that.

Oviously the alternatives they know would mean more "suffering", if not, they would change immediately, because people tend to walk the path of least resistance.

But there aren't any that they think is better, and not any of you judgemental people are offering new alternatives to these girls...

Your judging doesn't help them, it only puts them down.

You (gazz, johnny, ... dudes) have nothing to offer them, so there is nothing heroic in your preachings.

Plainly spoken and very well articulated at that.

Nobody hears from the silent majority of happy girls other than the punters themselves. The dissenters will of course air their grievances, and no one's disputing their view is their reality. But it's theirs. Not the next girls, or they'd all be out like Cosby accusers. It's just logic.

[Sawan Chan 7]

If all parties are legal age and consenting there is no problem. If the sex industry was legalised it would only be a positive thing, for the people in this kind of work.

I personally I don't like prostitution, and I have low opinions of the kind of people who frequent these places, but that is my personal view, for my personal lifestyle. I have no right to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do with their lives.

I don't like it even more when Christian freaks start interfering with things they have no understand about.. and they have their own twisted agenda for 'helping' their 'poor innocent delicate abused women'. Same reason they have to helping the hill tribe 'orphans' and trying to get Thais to attend the local Church and give up they religion.

I am not ashamed to say I have several good friends who work in the sex industry. I can assure you they were never being exploited, in fact they do at great job of exploiting their unsuspecting customers. And there are many well qualified sex workers too, but they choose to do their current job, rather than a lower paying or more boring or time consuming 'normal' job. Its not only women that do these jobs, there are many men, straight and gay, but these are not 'helped and rescued' by the kind Christian folk... as they are not as pretty I suspect.

This is a difficult and dangerous kind of job for anyone to do. It can be the ruin of many peoples lives. But at the end of the day we all have the right to choose to live how we want. If they would rather work in the sex industry rather than in the supermarket, office, or on the farm, than that's the choice they make, and many make a very good living from it.

We have no right to tell people what they do is wrong or force them to do other jobs.

Each to his / her own.

How on earth is someone who recognizes that prostitutes hate their work and are mentally damaged by it Christian?

You hate prostitution yet have many good friends who are prostitutes. Can I ask how you met them?

You'll be telling us you live in Pattaya next!

[Sawan Chan 7]

I was in Pattaya recently, and all the hookers were complaining because now is low season so they have only little bit of customers.

Some girls who didn't have a customer for 3 days looked seriously depressed because they needed money.

(they make it up in high season, but since many are not smart savers, low season can be tough)

If customers don't come, what are they gonna do? They clearly don't want to do anything else (normal job)

They don't want to be "helped". They just want to have more customers for boomboom, so the big money keeps coming.

They choose the path wathever they think is best for them. If other alternatives would be better or "less damaging" for them, they would choose that.

Oviously the alternatives they know would mean more "suffering", if not, they would change immediately, because people tend to walk the path of least resistance.

But there aren't any that they think is better, and not any of you judgemental people are offering new alternatives to these girls...

Your judging doesn't help them, it only puts them down.

You (gazz, johnny, ... dudes) have nothing to offer them, so there is nothing heroic in your preachings.

Plainly spoken and very well articulated at that.

Nobody hears from the silent majority of happy girls other than the punters themselves. The dissenters will of course air their grievances, and no one's disputing their view is their reality. But it's theirs. Not the next girls, or they'd all be out like Cosby accusers. It's just logic.

I actually thought it was a disgusting post from a typical Pattaya whoremonger. Dream on dude, Just because they stick together and pretend to themselves that the girls actually like them doesn't make it fact.

I have nothing to offer these girls, true but hopefully I can point out that the men using them are simply sex addicts who are in complete denial. I wonder how many tell their mother or children that they are mongers. Why not, they seem to be proud of the fact.

[daoyai]

Many of the anti-sexwork posters claim it is psycologicly damaging and to some of the girls this is undeniably true. Isn't this also true for many of the jobs we may have to do to make money? Can you imagine peeling shrimp for 10 hrs a day, every day? Or gutting chickens, working in a factory etc. ..soul destroying monotiny. ..... so many jobs in the modern industrial world cause psycological trama. The stigma of paid sex (and to some any sex non married sex) in the west ADDS to this damage, the religious moralists add to this stigma thus contributing to the damage.

There is a reason that many of the working girls here don't cover their tats and wear their hoop earings during the day when shopping etc. they are not stigmatised as they would be in the west, sure they are looked down upon by "proper" Thai society but so are we... and so are factory workers... that is part of society here.

[metisdead]

Posts in violation of fair use policy have been removed as well as the replies. The quoted content from some posts were from sites disallowed in Thailand. Some inflammatory posts removed as well.

[LannaGuy]

buying sexual favours is like abortion if you don't agree with it FINE then don't do it but don't impose your righteousness on others

prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and apart from bars there are 'sideliners' everywhere and Asians, particularly, are flexible about this and ses it in very practical terms. live and let live you are not here to 'save the world or a particular bar girl'

trafficking, underage etc. is an entirely different thing and should be stamped out but normal 'exchange sex' is consensual and NO business of anyone

[spidermike007]

Without us they would all live on the streets. I see it as we are helping them, as the Thai society isn't. No laws that makes fathers pay for the children's. No social securities. 90% of tourists are here for sex. That boosts the society.

So no. The Lord isn't going to punish me for helping these ladies give food and shelter for their baby and family.

And i don't care what people think about my statement. What options would the girls have unemployed. With a baby. Uneducated. This is a go_______t failure. A social structure failure. An educational failure. An cultural behaviour that accepts this.

They have accepted this and so have i.

Damn this is going to be quoted a lot hahaha!

Your figure of 90% may have been the case back in the days when Tiger Wood's dad was serving in Vietnam, and came to Pattaya, and met his wife and the mother of Tiger in a bar. Maybe back in the 1960's. These days? Probably more like 12%. Just guessing. There are so many families now, and probably less than 2% of the Chinese tourists, who make up a third of the current crop of tourists, partake in any action. Thanks are changing. Society is evolving.

Nobody is going to punish you for enjoying yourself with a woman for hire, as long as you treat her with kindness and respect. Only the prudes, the naive Americans, and the moralists will attempt to do so.

Don't disagree with much of what you say, even though my own thoughts may differ slightly.

But I think you are wrong when you say that society is evolving, except in the broadest possible terms. In my opinion, society is fragmenting and becoming less cohesive and has been for about 30 years. It's always been cyclical - a spiral function not a circular function, and right now, society seems to be on a down-swing. It will recover but it still has more fragmentation to do first. I doubt I will see the beginning of the upswing - you might but I'm pretty sure I won't.

My opinion.

Winnie.

Yes, I do think you are right. We are on a downswing. Part of that is brought on by reality TV. I consider it the single most destructive force today, within popular culture. It is the absolute dumbing down of society. The dubbing of American films, without Thailand is not far behind, as a corrosive influence. I could cite a dozen others. But, you get the idea.

[Plutojames88]

For many people, especially in developing parts of the world, choices about health and sexuality are influenced by the constraints of age, gender relations, economic survival, and choices.

That said its clear , many people in sex work do so by choice.

To say otherwise flies in the face of facts and stats.

Clearly , even nurses and professional woman sometimes dabble.

Websites and research have long case studies on data which supports this.

With this in mind, lets discuss ways in which desire, transgression and risk are intimately linked within both male and female sex tourism. We can explore how identity and agency in instances where tourists buy sex.

Lets look at numbers

Tourist 's are not absolutely the only people using services in Thailand where money is exchanged for sex.

And world wide home grown sex workers are fielding same race clients daily.

Often medical evidence will support the risks involved .

And psychological evidence points sometimes to documented harm.

Much the same as consumption of alcohol or Tobacco research came to light.

However , the economical advantage in many case studies show a bell curve where some woman enter the industry with expressed purpose to obtain a western partner. As opposed to extreme harm.

Studies have show 20% of woman within a five year period find a partner.

However , it's those longer term woman who risk higher damage.

What's not being discussed here is free choice.

The simple truth outside of religious doctrine that has a narrow interpretation is woman often choose these roles.

That's again a reflection on limited choices and often poor education .

But not always.

And the other glaring omission is that some woman enjoy sex.

Casual or paid.

Or both.

Studies show as many as 25% of woman who were paid workers came from another occupation to do so.

Financial reasons in third world countries are prevalent in seeking higher income.

Only 7% were in poverty by GDP in terms of necessity .

The summing up goes like this.

It's for many woman a road to escape economic conditions and for a sector a means of finding a partner.

Morally and on every health level it's flawed and the reality is harm exists.

But the association that ""this harm "" is purely a victimised situation is false.

Human trafficking exists no questions .

Proportionately it's small. ( ( when considering the sex worker population)

Over 100,000 self confessed sex workers in Thailand have another paid job and do it part time.

And 300,000 exclusively .

The numbers are higher when factoring massage places and discos etc.

While men want to purchase sex and offer proportional rewards woman will be sometimes attracted to that situation.

The reality is its always been that way.

Even the market place of husband finding is often found to be more monetary than love where lower GDP countries are concerned.

Christian' stay believe woman are always victims in sex acts without love.

However , with the basic social media platforms we see woman determine their bodies use.

Sometimes solely for pleasure with a fling.

The happy hooker assessment might be going too far but many are not adversely too affected in the shorter term.

Drug and alcohol abuse can though change this.

The bottom line is there are no absolutes.

Essentially , woman like men govern often their life's and choices .

It's extremely gullible to think otherwise.

As wrong as it may appear to some religious or decent people .

It's not a fact that its always not a choice.

Personally , I don't like the concept.

But I would never judge those who do.

Only maybe hope the treatment of the sex worker is taken into account always.

I also see many prostitutes convince men to marry them .

It's not always a bad outcome.

And some go on to live far better lives as a consequence of that course of action.

Just as many men and woman have their lives ruined by it all.

It's not called Vice for nothing.

But to preach a middle eastern concept some 2000 years old is somewhat silly.

Christianity is now a curious hypocritical concept at best.

Out dated out of touch and has so many closets for its skeletons it's worthless debating their holier than thou stance.

Sure hookers shouldn't hook in a perfect world.

But someone has to put bread on the table.

Education in third world countries isn't always the answer either.

2.6% of sex workers had higher education .

0.7% degrees.

Woman ultimately don't need so much understanding but support and choices.

Hooking just happens to be one of them

Edited July 7, 2016 by Plutojames88

[jak2002003]

If all parties are legal age and consenting there is no problem. If the sex industry was legalised it would only be a positive thing, for the people in this kind of work.

I personally I don't like prostitution, and I have low opinions of the kind of people who frequent these places, but that is my personal view, for my personal lifestyle. I have no right to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do with their lives.

I don't like it even more when Christian freaks start interfering with things they have no understand about.. and they have their own twisted agenda for 'helping' their 'poor innocent delicate abused women'. Same reason they have to helping the hill tribe 'orphans' and trying to get Thais to attend the local Church and give up they religion.

I am not ashamed to say I have several good friends who work in the sex industry. I can assure you they were never being exploited, in fact they do at great job of exploiting their unsuspecting customers. And there are many well qualified sex workers too, but they choose to do their current job, rather than a lower paying or more boring or time consuming 'normal' job. Its not only women that do these jobs, there are many men, straight and gay, but these are not 'helped and rescued' by the kind Christian folk... as they are not as pretty I suspect.

This is a difficult and dangerous kind of job for anyone to do. It can be the ruin of many peoples lives. But at the end of the day we all have the right to choose to live how we want. If they would rather work in the sex industry rather than in the supermarket, office, or on the farm, than that's the choice they make, and many make a very good living from it.

We have no right to tell people what they do is wrong or force them to do other jobs.

Each to his / her own.

How on earth is someone who recognizes that prostitutes hate their work and are mentally damaged by it Christian?

You hate prostitution yet have many good friends who are prostitutes. Can I ask how you met them?

You'll be telling us you live in Pattaya next!

Hi. The guy in the article is clearly a Bible basher. Listen to the language he uses. He wants to save them.. not save them from prostitution, but save them from their sins and save them, as in, convert them to Christianity. That is his goal.

Where did I say I 'hated' prostitution? I said I personally don't like it. I have never paid for sex my entire life. Again, I said that if people want to do that that's fine with me, but I don't want to be part of that scene as its not something that appeals to me.

I live in very rural Chiang Mai surrounded by mountains and rice fields, not Pattaya.

And its none of you business how I met some of my friends, some of them have been there for me and helped me when my so called Farang friends did not. And they did not want anything, or get anything in return form me. You should never judged people by outward appearances, this is something I learned a long time ago.

[GAZZPA]

One of the most interesting threads ever on TV......a lot has been said that hasn't been well articulated before yet needed to be said.

Completely agree, interesting and frustrating. It's a hot topic for sure and one that could be debated for ever. Easy to get angry and post inappropriate remarks, seems many, including some of mine have been removed (that'll teach us to stop behaving like kids)

It's a shame many people started the "bashing religion again" as if you have to be a Christian or Buddhist or Muslim (or whatever faith) to feel strongly against prostitution. To me it just diluted the argument of endorsers the second they played this card.

As far as I know no religion endorses prostitution, including Buddhism, the predominant religion in Thailand. So, I suspect the use of bashing Christians is just riding the current populous of brainless Christian bashers and hoping by "labelling" me as a "crazy bible basher" they will somehow destroy my credibility. Also hoping to get other like minded religion bashers to join in with view to rendering my opinion worthless. Strange how they don't bash Buddhists and Muslims who will preach the same, I can guess why.

Very hypocritical point to make seeing as how most endorsers are preaching "live and let live" and "people should have the right to choose and do as they please" and "who are you to judge and preach". And yet have zero respect for some who actually "chooses" to have faith in a religion! Hypocrites in their finest hour.

Pretty silly, very transparent and frankly a brainless argument.

Anyway, whatever peoples views are certainly not a topic for the faint hearted to get involved in and despite my point about the religion bashers it was basically a decent debate I think.

Enjoy your day.

[GAZZPA]

If all parties are legal age and consenting there is no problem. If the sex industry was legalised it would only be a positive thing, for the people in this kind of work.

I personally I don't like prostitution, and I have low opinions of the kind of people who frequent these places, but that is my personal view, for my personal lifestyle. I have no right to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do with their lives.

I don't like it even more when Christian freaks start interfering with things they have no understand about.. and they have their own twisted agenda for 'helping' their 'poor innocent delicate abused women'. Same reason they have to helping the hill tribe 'orphans' and trying to get Thais to attend the local Church and give up they religion.

I am not ashamed to say I have several good friends who work in the sex industry. I can assure you they were never being exploited, in fact they do at great job of exploiting their unsuspecting customers. And there are many well qualified sex workers too, but they choose to do their current job, rather than a lower paying or more boring or time consuming 'normal' job. Its not only women that do these jobs, there are many men, straight and gay, but these are not 'helped and rescued' by the kind Christian folk... as they are not as pretty I suspect.

This is a difficult and dangerous kind of job for anyone to do. It can be the ruin of many peoples lives. But at the end of the day we all have the right to choose to live how we want. If they would rather work in the sex industry rather than in the supermarket, office, or on the farm, than that's the choice they make, and many make a very good living from it.

We have no right to tell people what they do is wrong or force them to do other jobs.

Each to his / her own.

Each to their own eh! Unless it comes to something you disagree with then they are "freaks",,, such as, well lets say religion as a wild guess to where your hypocrisy lies. Despite most of the world having one faith or another.

[Winniedapu]

Many of the anti-sexwork posters claim it is psycologicly damaging and to some of the girls this is undeniably true. Isn't this also true for many of the jobs we may have to do to make money? Can you imagine peeling shrimp for 10 hrs a day, every day? Or gutting chickens, working in a factory etc. ..soul destroying monotiny. ..... so many jobs in the modern industrial world cause psycological trama. The stigma of paid sex (and to some any sex non married sex) in the west ADDS to this damage, the religious moralists add to this stigma thus contributing to the damage.

There is a reason that many of the working girls here don't cover their tats and wear their hoop earings during the day when shopping etc. they are not stigmatised as they would be in the west, sure they are looked down upon by "proper" Thai society but so are we... and so are factory workers... that is part of society here.

" Many of the anti-sexwork posters claim it is psycologicly damaging and to some of the girls this is undeniably true. Isn't this also true for many of the jobs we may have to do to make money?"

Irrelevant.

I am persuaded (by evidence, not personal preference) that a majority of girls joined the profession because:

1. They are unable to earn sufficient money for their needs in their village, and lack the education to find well-paid jobs in the city.

2. They wish to earn more money than they do present, and wish to engage a lifestyle which is beyond their means.

3. They wish to emulate bar-girls whom they know, and whom they sometimes regarded as being beautiful.

Personally, I seriously doubt that many women would join the profession because they enjoy casual sex with passing strangers. The whole concept of a 20 something-year-old Thai woman would be physically attracted to a 60 something-year-old dissolute Western man, is preposterous, and does not reflect the way that women go through the selection process for a mate. It seems obvious to me that these women are motivated by factors other than choosing a mate, probably money features pretty highly in the list of possible motivations.

"they are not stigmatised as they would be in the west"

With respect, I think this is a naive comment to make. I do not know of any Thai women (apart from other prostitutes) who do not look down their noses at bar-girls. The contempt may not be vocalised but to suggest it is'nt their is quite simply, a nonsense.

[discrimination...] is part of society here. (The bracketed text is mine, to provide context}.

It's a part of society everywhere, we are born racist, xenophobic, and discriminatory and there are very good survival reasons why this should be so in our history as a species. Many countries have legislated against discrimination in order simply to mitigate the excesses that our response to our natural inclination to discriminate may generate. But make no mistake, the Leopard still has its discriminatory spots though the impulse to indulge them is often modified by enforced laws. Anybody who claims not to have a discriminatory bone in their body, is lying, and it really is as simple as that, and one discriminatory bone identifies the wider natural tendency.

As a final note, it is my belief that people (whoever they are, wherever they are, and whatever their preferences may be) who imagine that women volunteer themselves for prostitution if there is another career available to them which delivers the same amount of money, are delusional. I'm sorry gentleman, I am not persuaded of the reality of your attempts to excuse your own behaviour on the basis that it's the woman's choice and not yours.

Winnie

Edited July 7, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Nearlynam]

Shame that letter from a prostitute was deleted.

It said it all.

They hate their work and EVERY client they have.

That includes YOU MrX in Pattaya.