Confusion as condo owners told they must have a work permit to rent out units

[Xircal]

8 hours ago, newnative said:

Lanna is correct.  Renting a condo for less than a month is against the Thai Hotel Law so if you are doing it you  are breaking the hotel law and also working illegally.  Good advice from Lanna to play it safe and conform to the law. 

 

Somebody needs to get that message across to people like them. In this particular case they appear to be Russian and probably not aware of the rules.

[LannaGuy]

6 minutes ago, Xircal said:

 

Somebody needs to get that message across to people like them. In this particular case they appear to be Russian and probably not aware of the rules.

 

It's up to the JPM (Juristic Person Manager) who is legally accountable for the condo (not the committee as commonly thought) and it is He/She who must ensure owners and residents COMPLY with the law

[Xircal]

2 hours ago, The Dark Lord said:

First post so bear with me guys.

 

i was in the cusp of purchasing a condo -new development- and part of the sales pitch was  that they (The Thai Developers representatives) could rent out the unit when we were not using it . 

 

From what your informed contributors have imparted this has the possibility of me being fined, imprisoned, made into some gangsters "maier noi" in the monkey house and finally deported!

 

or could it be that they have hoteliers license which covers it?

 

or am I being fed a pile of .........?

 

i live in Khorat on retirement visa, existing property is in UK, property here is Wife's ( came with the wife) but to be honest Khorat has all the excitement of a graveyard at night so looking for escape from time to time. Plan was one in Hua Hin and one in Pattaya area.

 

I don't get it. You own the property, but the developer can rent it to other people when you're not there? That implies that they have a set of keys to your apartment and can walk in at any time of the day or night.

 

And who's responsibility is it in the eyes of the law if they rent it out for a few days. After all, you're the registered owner presumably and since you're a foreigner but don't have a work permit, you could be kicked out of the country through no fault of your own.

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, Xircal said:

 

I don't get it. You own the property, but the developer can rent it to other people when you're not there? That implies that they have a set of keys to your apartment and can walk in at any time of the day or night.

 

And who's responsibility is it in the eyes of the law if they rent it out for a few days. After all, you're the registered owner presumably and since you're a foreigner but don't have a work permit, you could be kicked out of the country through no fault of your own.

 

JPM please read my post as it is clear WHO is legally responsible for any condo in Thailand

[Xircal]

11 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

It's up to the JPM (Juristic Person Manager) who is legally accountable for the condo (not the committee as commonly thought) and it is He/She who must ensure owners and residents COMPLY with the law

 

Don't get me wrong. I was just feeling sympathetic towards what looks like a young couple with a child renting out their condo for a few days without realising the danger they're putting themselves in.

[Xircal]

10 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

JPM please read my post as it is clear WHO is legally responsible for any condo in Thailand

@ LannaGuy,

 

You need to impart that information to The Dark Lord (ID 387) since I was just commenting on what he wrote.

[LannaGuy]

2 minutes ago, Xircal said:

 

Don't get me wrong. I was just feeling sympathetic towards what looks like a young couple with a child renting out their condo for a few days without realising the danger they're putting themselves in.

 

Just don't do it and encourage your JPM and Committee to stop it where they see it as a visa is at risk and I would not wish that on anyone. Ignorance is no defence.

[newnative]

I think it's better to purchase a condo that has already been built, Mr. Dark Lord.  Here's what I think are desirable attributes for a  Pattaya condo, ranked roughly in importance:  Seaview.  Foreign name.  High floor.  On or very close to baht taxi line.  Walking distance to the beach.  Minimum amenities of large pool, gym, and covered parking.  Usable balcony.  Quality of construction and maintenance.  Good room layout.  Name brand Thai developer.  The more of these you have, the more likely you will be able to sell the condo down the road.  If resale truly doesn't enter the picture, then purchase wherever you want.  

[newnative]

The on-site condo rental agency will only rent your room if you put it in their rental program.  It's up to you as to whether you want to rent your room when you are not there. 

[kingalfred]

Clear the country hates competition. Can't have units cheaper than what local hotels etc are charging can we!


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[Xircal]

20 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

Just don't do it and encourage your JPM and Committee to stop it where they see it as a visa is at risk and I would not wish that on anyone. Ignorance is no defence.

 

I don't live in Thailand LannaGuy.

[newnative]

In many cases the condos being illegally rented are just as expensive as a hotel room, Kingalfred, and some are more expensive.  It's more a case of recognizing that hotels are hotels and condos are condos and they are two completely different things.  Hotels cater to short-term guests and their wants and needs--which are many and sometimes complicated.  There is lots of wear and tear as guest are moving in and out frequently.  There are security problems and guests often behave very badly because they are on vacation.  They don't follow the rules because, again, they are on vacation and they WILL have a good time and they don't care who they disturb because, hey, I'm out of here in a day or two and who cares? Hotels are strict about reporting their guest data to the proper authorities so Thailand can keep track of where the tourists are.  Owners doing illegal rentals are likely not doing any reporting--this will probably be a big reason for a crackdown on illegal rentals if we ever get one because Thailand is losing control of knowing where its tourists are and in an age of terrorism that's not good.  Condos are residences and people are living there and making the condo their home, whether they are there for a month or two or long-term.  The law recognizes the differences between a condo and a hotel and the laws were in place long before Airbnb and the like.  You may want to rent a condo for a day or two but, I assure you, the condo residents don't want you.  And, why go where you aren't wanted?  Rent a hotel room--that's what they are there for.  And, you may even save a buck.

 

[bodymassagemyfriend]

48 minutes ago, newnative said:

In many cases the condos being illegally rented are just as expensive as a hotel room, Kingalfred, and some are more expensive.  It's more a case of recognizing that hotels are hotels and condos are condos and they are two completely different things.  Hotels cater to short-term guests and their wants and needs--which are many and sometimes complicated.  There is lots of wear and tear as guest are moving in and out frequently.  There are security problems and guests often behave very badly because they are on vacation.  They don't follow the rules because, again, they are on vacation and they WILL have a good time and they don't care who they disturb because, hey, I'm out of here in a day or two and who cares? Hotels are strict about reporting their guest data to the proper authorities so Thailand can keep track of where the tourists are.  Owners doing illegal rentals are likely not doing any reporting--this will probably be a big reason for a crackdown on illegal rentals if we ever get one because Thailand is losing control of knowing where its tourists are and in an age of terrorism that's not good.  Condos are residences and people are living there and making the condo their home, whether they are there for a month or two or long-term.  The law recognizes the differences between a condo and a hotel and the laws were in place long before Airbnb and the like.  You may want to rent a condo for a day or two but, I assure you, the condo residents don't want you.  And, why go where you aren't wanted?  Rent a hotel room--that's what they are there for.  And, you may even save a buck.

 

Hotels are expensive now and i prefer renting a condo because there are no such things as band playing loud at night or loads of Chinese buses going in and out.

Whoever compared AirBnb and Hotel wont go back in a hotel. Landlord fell responsible for the well beeing of the tenant while in Hotels , you get low paid Thais who dont give a shit about your issues.

Went to a hotel in Bankok , hot water issue has not been fixed for 3 years.

[stevenl]

54 minutes ago, newnative said:

In many cases the condos being illegally rented are just as expensive as a hotel room, Kingalfred, and some are more expensive.  It's more a case of recognizing that hotels are hotels and condos are condos and they are two completely different things.  Hotels cater to short-term guests and their wants and needs--which are many and sometimes complicated.  There is lots of wear and tear as guest are moving in and out frequently.  There are security problems and guests often behave very badly because they are on vacation.  They don't follow the rules because, again, they are on vacation and they WILL have a good time and they don't care who they disturb because, hey, I'm out of here in a day or two and who cares? Hotels are strict about reporting their guest data to the proper authorities so Thailand can keep track of where the tourists are.  Owners doing illegal rentals are likely not doing any reporting--this will probably be a big reason for a crackdown on illegal rentals if we ever get one because Thailand is losing control of knowing where its tourists are and in an age of terrorism that's not good.  Condos are residences and people are living there and making the condo their home, whether they are there for a month or two or long-term.  The law recognizes the differences between a condo and a hotel and the laws were in place long before Airbnb and the like.  You may want to rent a condo for a day or two but, I assure you, the condo residents don't want you.  And, why go where you aren't wanted?  Rent a hotel room--that's what they are there for.  And, you may even save a buck.

 

The Chinese are the ultimate short stayers.

[Motown239]

Apparently, someone's trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.


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[gk10002000]

wow, wow, and wow.  This brings up a whole lot of questions and issues. 

1:  Any rental implies you got income so should the foreigner that is renting out supposed to be paying Thai Taxes?

2:  Is renting out your unit considered a type of work.  Uh oh, if true.

3:  The article stressed less than 30 days.  So more than 30 days is OK? Why?

4:  This doesn't seem like something that would be isolated to just Phuket.  Thai financial and work permit laws would apply to other provinces too?

[mcfish]

19 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

 

Ignore the quote in my post its a TV bug .

 

gk10002000

 

You havnt read the whole thread ? its an old thread and the minister for labor in Phuket has already made a statement but your gonna have to find it here ,there was also a separate thread  but that thread including this one are old news..

 

in short "no"

Edited September 12, 2016 by mcfish

[newnative]

Not sure about the taxes part, gk.  But if you are renting a condo for less than 30 days, whether you are in Phuket or Pattaya, you are violating the Thai Hotel Law.  Over 30 days and you are ok and don't need a work permit.  When you rent out a condo you are required to report the tenant's information to Immigration--but I doubt many of the people doing illegal short-term rentals are reporting the tenant information.

[NamKangMan]

22 hours ago, KarenBravo said:

If this wasn't OK by the condo committee, then, you would have heard something by now.

Too much money involved for any other residents to make a difference.

 

Life just ain't fair......

 

 

"Life just ain't fair......" - and it becomes a lot "unfairer" when you only own 49% of a condo you paid 100% for. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by NamKangMan

[The Dark Lord]

19 hours ago, newnative said:

I think it's better to purchase a condo that has already been built, Mr. Dark Lord.  Here's what I think are desirable attributes for a  Pattaya condo, ranked roughly in importance:  Seaview.  Foreign name.  High floor.  On or very close to baht taxi line.  Walking distance to the beach.  Minimum amenities of large pool, gym, and covered parking.  Usable balcony.  Quality of construction and maintenance.  Good room layout.  Name brand Thai developer.  The more of these you have, the more likely you will be able to sell the condo down the road.  If resale truly doesn't enter the picture, then purchase wherever you want.  

Hi guys,

 

thanks for for the input, very much appreciated. Having read considerably more in this forum wife and I thinking more along the second hand unit as described.

 

no rush as want to see what £ does moving forward.

 

i see a split in opinion ( on different threads) about purchasing property here. I suppose at the end it is up to us to decide but make an informed decision.

 

off topic I agree but this forum is cracking. Little bit of personal angst in some threads but overall highly informative and very useful.

[LivinginKata]

19 minutes ago, The Dark Lord said:

Hi guys,

 

thanks for for the input, very much appreciated. Having read considerably more in this forum wife and I thinking more along the second hand unit as described.

 

no rush as want to see what £ does moving forward.

 

i see a split in opinion ( on different threads) about purchasing property here. I suppose at the end it is up to us to decide but make an informed decision.

 

off topic I agree but this forum is cracking. Little bit of personal angst in some threads but overall highly informative and very useful.

 

First market prepay offers the best price, but you don't see what (if) is built.

 

Second market used to be quite a bit more expensive in the past. Not so sure these days as the property market is saturated  and many folks are ready to bail out at a loss.

 

It's a very split opinion buy or rent. Those of us with a Thai wife are likely in the buy camp. Those footloose and fancy free are likely in the rent camp. I've been an owner (well ... through wife or company) for 20 years, not so sure about that if I arrived here tomorrow as a newbie. Times have changed ..... a lot.

 

The personal angst if just part of forum personalities ...

 

[gk10002000]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 9:00 PM, NamKangMan said:

From what I have read, many condo owners doing this use the services of the onsite property manager (Thai) to arrange handing over the keys and cleaning the room, and/or, an agent (Thai).

The property managers and agents have full knowledge of what is going on.

Several places in Pattaya are definitely managed by the onsite property manager, Diana Oasis, two big places over by Soi Yamato.  So no doubt people know what is going on, now the question is what laws are actually on the books, and what will be enforced and how will it be enforced

[jobwolf]

This is true. I have been reported by Phuket Palace Juristic Person Condominium Manager to the Labor Department. They came to me and informed me that a work permit is needed even if the condo is freehold, and gave me 2 weeks to rectify the situation or I might face a fine if the manager reports me again. I have an explanatory letter from the Labor department.

What would be interesting is to find out if the CONDOMINIUM MANAGER WILL ALSO BE FINED IF SHORT TERM RENTALS ARE DONE. In our case everybody renting or owner have to pay a fee for registration in the Fingerprint Equipment to open the entrance door so the office is informed how long people are renting the condos for. We do see Situations where tourists are using special codes given by the office to enter. There obviously can be many reasons for this. If anybody know about co-responsibility of Condo Manager, please let me know.

[Forkinhades]

This is true. I have been reported by Phuket Palace Juristic Person Condominium Manager to the Labor Department. They came to me and informed me that a work permit is needed even if the condo is freehold, and gave me 2 weeks to rectify the situation or I might face a fine if the manager reports me again. I have an explanatory letter from the Labor department.

What would be interesting is to find out if the CONDOMINIUM MANAGER WILL ALSO BE FINED IF SHORT TERM RENTALS ARE DONE. In our case everybody renting or owner have to pay a fee for registration in the Fingerprint Equipment to open the entrance door so the office is informed how long people are renting the condos for. We do see Situations where tourists are using special codes given by the office to enter. There obviously can be many reasons for this. If anybody know about co-responsibility of Condo Manager, please let me know.

It could be wise to start a new thread on this. As the previous post #412 is 18 months old.

 

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[newnative]

 I think you will need a work permit when the new rental law goes into effect if you are renting 5 or more condos.  The new law seems to have decided that if you are renting that many condos you are running a business.

[Banana7]

10 hours ago, jobwolf said:

This is true. I have been reported by Phuket Palace Juristic Person Condominium Manager to the Labor Department. They came to me and informed me that a work permit is needed even if the condo is freehold, and gave me 2 weeks to rectify the situation or I might face a fine if the manager reports me again. I have an explanatory letter from the Labor department.

What would be interesting is to find out if the CONDOMINIUM MANAGER WILL ALSO BE FINED IF SHORT TERM RENTALS ARE DONE. In our case everybody renting or owner have to pay a fee for registration in the Fingerprint Equipment to open the entrance door so the office is informed how long people are renting the condos for. We do see Situations where tourists are using special codes given by the office to enter. There obviously can be many reasons for this. If anybody know about co-responsibility of Condo Manager, please let me know.

The Condo Manager is not responsible for who stays in a private owner's condo unit because the Manager does not control, have duty, responsibility or authority who enters a private owner's unit. Each and every owner is responsible for their own unit.

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Banana7