Why are the elderly so bitter?

[puukao]

Of course, not everyone, but I have seen so many old guys simply bitter, sad, mad, crazy, and they really embarrass themselves.  

 

I've seen old guys yelling at Thais over money, yelling at Thais over lack of English skills, and more bitter than last time I was in the city.  Have they lost their mind?  Lost the plot?

 

Likely poor with no future, but that isn't an excuse for such horrible behavior.

 

I think they get more upset with their lives every day, and it just adds up over the years without them really seeing how bad they have become....

 

i wish I could simply avoid these old, bitter guys, but it seems rather difficult.  I'll keep trying..

 

 

[KhonKaenKowboy]

Some truth to the stereotypes you are portraying, and at least you didn't declare yourself an expert on the proper age differences between consenting adults.  But, how about the saying "28 is the new 18"?  Basically it means that the Millennials represent a regression in society.  The old grumpy expats are fairly easy to avoid and often hang out with other grumpy old expats.  Just look at them as a preview of what you will be like in 30 or 40 years.

[sirineou]

if you are lucky you will get old and find out. .

[jobin]

Simply google these words 'age related testosterone levels' mate,  and you will learn what lies ahead.  And i'm not just talking about bedroom activities, but every durn aspect of the physical life goes downhill, and rapidly.  The eyes can't see well, the joints can't move well, the muscles no longer lift the bag of rice, the legs can't pump the bike uphill, the urinary tract starts to fail, ...you name the function and after age 70 that function is in deep decline.

 

No wonder the bitterness arises.  Bitterness is a mental state which some men cannot avoid.  And to avoid this state of mind takes substantial daily effort:  it's a choice but does take training/work to elevate the mind away from the reality of 'old age'. 

[chiang mai]

I'm not sure that grumpy old expats, as a percentage of old expats, is any higher than misbehaving young expats, perhaps because I don't run into very many. But the ones I have seen have been either, fresh off the boat and haven't got a clue about how to behave, and/or, remnants of the Empire who expect preferential treatment as a result or Americans (not to bash) with a superiority complex.

 

I think one thing that happens is that, as expats in Thailand get older, we tend to notice things that we didn't notice previously, particularly the behaviour of other expats. As our awareness and familiarity with Thailand improves we tend to be more critical of other expats who don't behave the way we thing they ought. I also think there are behavioural differences between city based foreigners and rural/semi rural foreigners, as a semi rural dweller I observe the expats around me and almost without exception I don't see them behaving poorly. Perhaps because of their generally shorter tenure (think tourists), city based, older expats tend to be less familiar with the country, its people and the right way to behave.

 

Just my observations FWIW.

[Dante99]

I do not doubt that they are out there but the last time I encountered one was about 3 years ago and he was going off on another farang!

 

Where do you find these bitter people demonstrating their vile?

[SaintLouisBlues]

11 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

I do not doubt that they are out there but the last time I encountered one was about 3 years ago and he was going off on another farang!

 

Where do you find these bitter people demonstrating their vile?

An inability to control one's temper as one gets older is sometimes a sign of dementia - https://www.agingcare.com/Articles/elderly-temper-tantrums-156852.htm

Another explanation could be the sense of frustration with oneself for all sorts of reasons ranging from physical infirmities to a realization that one is trapped in Thailand with nowhere else to go. "Walk a mile in another man's shoes" is always a good philosophy to have

[puukao]

Yes, it is hard to describe and there is much truth to younger backpackers behaving badly.  Young kids drunk, urinate in public, fight, act stupid, drive fast, etc....

 

I guess there are a few things that worry me:

 

1.  I don't really drink at all now, and hope I'm not the old (60's plus) guy who is drunk and falls down in CM.

2.   DO NOT BE THE OLD GUY WHO IS ALONE WITH NO FRIENDS.  This is the key.  I have many friends, gf back home, not a problem....but this is the killer.  

3.  Yes, vision will go I'm sure.

4.  Biking in CM at 70 with a mental disease and other health problems not good

 

To me, it seems like these old guys come here to die and that's a little sad.  Of course their home country would take care of them "better', but they chose their fate.  Now mad about it.  The young kids have POTENTIAL......but it's not all realized, of course.

 

I think you can smile and be happy around strangers regardless of your situation.  It's just sad when you see the old guy throw 100 baht at the tuk-tuk driver and yell, "too much, i hate this place."

 

it was funny four years ago, but now i'm four years older...

 

 

[puukao]

10 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

An inability to control one's temper as one gets older is sometimes a sign of dementia - https://www.agingcare.com/Articles/elderly-temper-tantrums-156852.htm

Another explanation could be the sense of frustration with oneself for all sorts of reasons ranging from physical infirmities to a realization that one is trapped in Thailand with nowhere else to go. "Walk a mile in another man's shoes" is always a good philosophy to have

 

This doesn't excuse aggressive behavior.  This doesn't excuse looking to punch a Thai woman who works in a restaurant.  

 

If you use this quote as an excuse, then I guess all evil is forgiven.  

[NancyL]

You've got to remember that Chiang Mai has been promoted as one of the top places for international retirement for over ten years and thus has a very high number of retired expats.  Many of the articles in international press focused on the cheap cost of living here and others, particularly on the internet, talked about how easy it is for men, even those of a "certain age" to find beautiful female companionship.  

 

Many of these men have found themselves to be victims of the global economic crash of 2008-9 and/or divorce settlements where half their old age pension and life-time savings were given to their wives by judges.  How were they to start a new life  as an old man in a competitive environment in their home countries?  What employer would want them.  And no woman who was attractive enough to make them feel young again would give them the time of day.  Why not just come to Thailand and live a perpetual holiday on their reduced pension income?

 

Fast forward to now when they've been here a few years and are in their seventies.  While someone mentioned reduced testosterone as something that happens as one enters their seventies, it's more likely they're suffering the effects of poor diet in trying to save money eating cheap Thai food, with the calcium and vitamin B12 deficiencies that can develop.  They overindulge in alcohol, which affects judgment and further destroys the ability to absorb vitamins.  Not to mention makes them susceptible to falls on CM's bad footpaths.  And early stage dementia is starting, with frontal lobe changes that cause anger and temper tantrums.  Long-term alcohol use causes a form of dementia.  

 

It's important that newly arrived retirees develop a social network when they arrive and activities that focus on something besides drinking.  While it's nice to make friends with the local people, it's been my observation that the most successful elder expats are those who have a wide circle of friends within the expat community.  As one gets older, their ability to socialize in a foreign language diminishes and it's important to keep the touchstones of one's home country.  Too many expats live in self-imposed isolation here, right in the middle of the city.  It doesn't need to be that way.

[puukao]

It is dementia, but I'm not so sure the guys i saw have "early dementia".  I would say stage 3 of 5, and I have quite a bit of experience seeing this disease.

 

The problem is, Who is going to take care of a stranger with this disease?  It's a horrible disease, and expensive to treat properly (in America, at least:  $5000 USD a month for proper care).  It's just a little strange these old men, who say they have family, have been abandoned.  

 

This disease will lead to MORE isolation, not less.  Nobody wants to deal with someone who becomes aggressive very fast.  

 

They are also in an environment where people will take advantage of them, stealing becomes much easier.  

 

and, yes, it is all cumulative....

 

i'm sorry, i will avoid these guys and not take them into my house and take care of them.  

I guess I post so if you think your friend is starting to have dementia, maybe have a heart-to-heart talk soon before it is too late.  

 

good point on the B12 and calcium.  

 

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by puukao

[Dante99]

41 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

An inability to control one's temper as one gets older is sometimes a sign of dementia - https://www.agingcare.com/Articles/elderly-temper-tantrums-156852.htm

Another explanation could be the sense of frustration with oneself for all sorts of reasons ranging from physical infirmities to a realization that one is trapped in Thailand with nowhere else to go. "Walk a mile in another man's shoes" is always a good philosophy to have

My question was where are these people encountered in CM?  because I do not see them often

[chiang mai]

Ditto, me neither. I guess if we were to hang  out on Loi Kroh at midnight we might?

[Mousehound]

Interestingly I find a lot of younger people tend to be pretty grumpy as well. Certainly they sometimes lack common courtesy.  Road rage, aggressive and a abusive language and a total disregard for others seems to be pretty common.  Having said that I often prefer to be with younger people - the good ones are as always great fun and their zest for living is infectious.   I guess there are grumpy people of all ages, but there are older ones that try to get on with life and enjoy things as best they can.  I try to be in the latter group - it makes life better for me and better for those around me.  A win - win situation.

[NancyL]

Not just Loi Kroh, although that's a popular spot, but really anywhere that older expats are likely to be.  I've seen older people have temper tantrums or otherwise behave badly in places where they probably aren't drunk such as at Immigration, at hospitals, at Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew, etc.  These are places where they're trying to conduct business or gain information and have either become impatient with waiting and/or don't understand what they're being told and/or have forgotten what they were told in a previous conversation and/or have lost or misplaced a key document or item, etc, etc.  

 

There are quite a few elderly expats with dementia in this town who are trying to live on their own and are in denial about their condition.  It's a hallmark of dementia to for the person with the condition to deny they have it or try to cover it up, if they suspect.  They value their independence, wanting to be able to decide for themselves when to get up, go to bed, where to eat, what to eat, what to wear, etc.  The last thing they want to do is "go into some home" where they'll be supervised and have to adhere to someone else's routine and live far away from their favorite restaurants, coffee shops and hangouts.  

[MissAndry]

There can be many explanations, for both men and women,, some might include,

 

1. Trying to survive on small amounts of pension money.

2. Constant pain from ongoing/incurable medical conditions.

3. Side effects from medication/painkillers.

4. Frustration at the language barrier, particularly if you are hard of hearing.

5. Disappointment accumulated from their life.

6. No hope left for the future.

 

It's entirely understandable IMHO.

(I'm currently on painkillers and anti-inflammatory for my broken bone and teeth, and this weekend have been particularly obnoxious and unrestrained, apologies to anyone who I've argued with on this forum) 

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by MissAndry

[NancyL]

16 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Ditto, me neither. I guess if we were to hang  out on Loi Kroh at midnight we might?

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are many older expats with dementia who have angry out bursts and aren't abusing alcohol.  You don't find them at Loi Kroh, but a high propotion can be found in the area that includes Kad Suan Kaew mall, Maya mall and the shops, restaurants and condos in between and in the area.

 

The vast majority of elder expats who live in that area are just fine and well-adjusted, but there are exceptions.  And not everyone who has dementia has angry outbursts, either.

[Rancid]

Thailand is different things to different people, however personality types predisposed to be irritated easily will find that eventually going off the chart here. The easy-going just let the little things slide without worrying about it, for many as they age their levels of tolerance also declines, that can then be  a potent cocktail for unabated rage.

 

Likewise consider if you were in Willy Wonkers Chocolate Factory, as a child it would be heaven on earth, however if your taste buds had packed it in then it would be a nightmare of abundance yet being unable to be fulfilled.

[SaintLouisBlues]

2 hours ago, puukao said:

 

This doesn't excuse aggressive behavior.  This doesn't excuse looking to punch a Thai woman who works in a restaurant.  

 

If you use this quote as an excuse, then I guess all evil is forgiven.  

Yes, I must try harder to remember that having dementia means you're still in control of your actions

[balo]

So to summarize , avoid alcohol , avoid medication with side effects and avoid mixing with locals, stick with your foreign friends if you can find them to socialize. If not you're not going to make it.

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, balo said:

So to summarize , avoid alcohol , avoid medication with side effects and avoid mixing with locals, stick with your foreign friends if you can find them to socialize. If not you're not going to make it.

 

 

No, that's not quite right.  You should have a wide circle of friends, both foreign and Thai.  And interests to keep your mind active.

[jobin]

Well, of course regardless of what you do, drink pints a night, smoke like a chimney, cultivate locals, learn the lingo, watch golf on the telly all day, join the expats club or not, eat at Dukes or the corner shack...the end result is always the same.

[KhonKaenKowboy]

4 hours ago, NancyL said:

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are many older expats with dementia who have angry out bursts and aren't abusing alcohol.  You don't find them at Loi Kroh, but a high propotion can be found in the area that includes Kad Suan Kaew mall, Maya mall and the shops, restaurants and condos in between and in the area.

 

The vast majority of elder expats who live in that area are just fine and well-adjusted, but there are exceptions.  And not everyone who has dementia has angry outbursts, either.

Correct, Nancy, many of the grumpy bunch don't drink at all.  I was at KSK yesterday, and was thinking to myself (not talking to myself), that while KSK is a convenient stop on my 4 mile walk; there are a lot of malcontent expats in that area, and not all are older.  Maybe it is flawed from the start as it tends to attract the expats who are looking to live in the most westernized neighborhood.  It just feeds on itself from there, and many never get immersed in the real Thailand.  You could do a lot worse than spending a month or two there, but after 12 years of observation; it has a certifiable creepiness to it.  I generally use the BKK Bank on campus, but I've been in the KSK branch 100 times, and it does seem like there is frequently a representative of the Hardway Club in there with some kind of issue.  I think I could explain and/or solve their problem for them 90% of the time, but it's not my place to do it, and I've heard enough Eurotrash claim the Americans don't mind their own business....that my assistance to these people has become very limited.  BBL has a history of sitting on outbound wires that has been well documented, but much lower interest rates have resolved most of that, but usually the problems are more simple and the hard way is all they know.  Then there are the expats, who ride their motorbikes on the sidewalk around there....I guess because the Thais do it, it must be ok.....I'm glad I live by CMU, it's not only much more of the real Thailand, but it's a smarter slice of it.  We have some old grumps, here too, just not numerous, and some are anti-social to say the least.  Paybacks are Hell, though, and when I see them struggling with electrical, plumbing, or computer trouble; that I know I could easily fix...I just keep right on walking, because, after all; life is a two way street.

Edited September 4, 2016 by KhonKaenKowboy

[worgeordie]

In the 50's and 60's in the U.K. it was Angry YOUNG men,maybe they are the same ones ,only a lot older,are in Thailand today.I've never seen any old expats acting in the ways described,but I dont

go out drinking.

The only place I see angry (dont know if they are bitter) old expats,is on this very forum,CNX seems

 

to have more than its share, compared to other area forums on TV.now just wait for angry resonse.

 

regards worgeordie

[NancyL]

If ThaiVisa will permit me to make a little "community service announcement" .......

Lessons Learned from the End of Life, Saturday, 10 September, 9:00 – 12:00 noon.

Presented by Lanna Care Net & Cancer Connect Chiang Mai, at River Market Restaurant, west side of the Iron Bridge

Come learn from the experience of other expats who were in serious medical situations in Chiang Mai. Nancy Lindley of LCN and Carl Samuels of CC-CM will explain an Advance Health Directive that has been used successfully in local hospitals and share tips on how your foreign Advance Directive (or Living Will) can be utilized here, along with other actions you can do now to prepare for your own Happy Ending.

100 baht; light refreshments served. Reservations or information: 085 709 8801   [email protected]
*********************

In addition to talking about Advance Directive (aka Living Wills), I'll also spend some time on what I call "The Checklist" of documents you should organize and activities you should undertake to get yourself organized while you still have 95% of your marbles rolling around in your head.  Some of the issues I see elderly expats with dementia get themselves involved with at Bangkok Bank, with the internet service provider, Immigration, etc revolve around not having worked their way thru "The Checklist" and not having someone trusted to help them, or at least a personal reference source they can bring along on interactions that may be troublesome.

(For example, one of my favorite LCN clients had at least taken the time to sort-of "get it together" while he still "had it" by putting important documents and info he'd written on scraps of paper into a shoe box.  That's actually W-A-Y better than most of the people I assist.  I seriously doubt the average Thai or even an expat from a different country or without certain skills could have made much of the contents of that shoe box, but it was a big, big help when he had an accident and was no help in locating bank accounts, family in the home country, etc.)

[pgrahmm]

I guess I don't get around enough to see this.....Which is probably a good thing.....

Their are some folks who, for whatever reason, have never been pleasant & don't understand the concept that they are unpleasant and rude.....Chances are good they were that way in their home country - ran out their string & out of people so moved to Paradise only to restart here & add ignorance of culture to their resume.....

If and when I experience unpleasant people I avoid them like the plague unless forced to have interaction of some sort.....

My Step Father, his Sister and Mother all died with Alzheimers which started with dementia/confusion - I took my Dad in toward the end into my home & lived through it with him until it got to the impossible stage to manage & it's a terrible thing to co-experience.....

I don't see much of anyone out & about in a confused state of anger but getting more than a few were angry before they found their way here.....

Proper nutrition, supplements, interests/stimulation, and a form of exercise is a must.....

There's WAY too many fat pot bellied expats lumbering around & those habits didn't start here.....

We are also the survivors of the 60's generation so a fair amount of what we are seeing is probably the result of long term indulgence & prior abuse......

[Fookhaht]

Many of them get to the end of a long life having had no moral compass, and are suffering the consequences.   They haven't lost the plot.  They never had one. 

By the way, a disturbing assumption suggested by the thread title.  I would wish the poster/mods could modify the thread title to match the OP.  All elderly are not bitter.  To believe that tells more about the one holding that belief rather than the elderly.   

Edited September 4, 2016 by Fookhaht

[Trujillo]

How old is "old"? 

 

Maybe some expats just don't give a shit what you think. Maybe they don't have to keep up appearances or be "nice" to their woman as long as they keep feeding the meter. They don't have to adhere to a dress code and they're fed up with years of Western "politeness," saying excuse me every time you turn around, having to hold doors for some dumbass stranger, having to tip a barman for opening a bottle of beer for you. 

Maybe they're sick of the general stupidity of the locals and venting soothes away their inner feelings of massacre. 

 

Mental illness? That's a red herring if I ever heard one. There are some characters around, that's for sure, but I doubt that a statistically significant number of "old" falang people are mentally ill in Chiang Mai. 

 

Generally when some foreigner is rude to a Thai, there is good reason behind it. 

[SoiBiker]

Fed up of being a decent human being and treating those around you with a bit of respect?

 

I hope that never happens to me. 

[mcfish]

OP sounding a bit bitter himself