Tourist Visa Extension

[europeannomad]

I came to Thailand about 2 years ago and live in a rural province in the far north..

 

Until now, I never had any problems getting 60 day tourist visas in surrounding countries, which I extended for 30 days here at the local immigration.

 

I don't work but love travelling inside Thailand and staying here with my girlfriend who is a foreign English teacher. It's also about recovering from the stress that I used to have in my home country.

 

Last time I went for 30 day extension to the local immigration, the immigration officer told me that in the future she will not give me any extensions anymore. She went on and stated that just travelling and staying with the girlfriend with no work is not possible forever. I told her that I have more than enough money and that I am willing to show her my Thai bank account. She was not interested and replied that next time she wants to see 20000 Baht Cash, but that it will really be the last time.

 

My questions: Is it in the competence of the local immigration to refuse extensions for people which comply with all legal conditions? In my opinion it is not. Are there any similar experiences? And most of all, is there any higher authority in Bangkok I could contact to make pressure?

 

I should maybe add that I have always been polite without being submissive. I told the immigration officer clearly that if she refused my extensions in the future, my girlfriend and I would leave the province and a local school would miss an excellent teacher. She obviously disliked that I contradicted, but there has never been anything that would justify treating me differently from other people. Despite this, I always felt a kind of hostility when I went there, not knowing if it was personal or just general attitude of Thai officials towards foreigners.

 

Any feedback is welcome.

 

[jspill]

There's no rule, she's just being miserable. 

 

You could do the extensions in Bangkok as soon as you fly in from a surrounding country, before you make the trip up North. Just spend an extra day or two in Bangkok. 

 

I use an agent in Sukhumvit to handle the extensions for me, no risk of getting hassled. 

[tonray]

The of course suspect you are working while on a tourist visa. No need to be specific but what is your source of living funds, savings or income from some activity (digital nomad ?). 

[elviajero]

Quote

My questions: Is it in the competence of the local immigration to refuse extensions for people which comply with all legal conditions? In my opinion it is not. Are there any similar experiences? And most of all, is there any higher authority in Bangkok I could contact to make pressure?

 

None of us have any right to an extension of stay as it is entirely at the discretion of Immigration. The IO has the right to decline your application, however, if it is declined you have the right to appeal.

 

If you were to appeal I doubt you'd win because of the time you've been staying here as a 'tourist'. Their records confirm you are not a 'tourist'. A 'tourist', in the eyes of Immigration, is a someone visiting for a short time and leaves. When assessing whether or not someone is a 'tourist' they will more likely to want to see flights out of the country, hotel bookings or anything else a typical tourist would have. Showing you have x in the bank doesn't really help as it's not just about being able to afford to live here, it's also about living here with, what they consider, an appropriate visa/permit. The IO is entitled to request you have 20K cash.

[europeannomad]

59 minutes ago, tonray said:

The of course suspect you are working while on a tourist visa. No need to be specific but what is your source of living funds, savings or income from some activity (digital nomad ?). 

 

In fact the town is not that big and they know me. They would easily know if I worked illegally. 

 

Life here is not that expensive, this is not Bangkok. As I said above, I had a lot of work in my home country, therefore I have enough funds to live a simple life here for a few years. Besides this, I could legally teach in Thailand if I wanted to.

 

I also considered the Elite Visa for 5 years, but I am not sure if we will stay that long in Thailand. Maybe 1 or 2 more years? I am just looking for a solution in the mid term. And I really enjoy the Visa runs to Laos, Malaysia, Cambodia, etc. every 3 months. But in 1 or 2 years It might be interesting to live in other Asian countries.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, jspill said:

There's no rule, she's just being miserable. 

 

You could do the extensions in Bangkok as soon as you fly in from a surrounding country, before you make the trip up North. Just spend an extra day or two in Bangkok. 

 

I use an agent in Sukhumvit to handle the extensions for me, no risk of getting hassled. 

" You could do the extensions in Bangkok as soon as you fly in from a surrounding country, before you make the trip up North. Just spend an extra day or two in Bangkok.  "

 

Unless you are bribing someone to bend the rules, you can't apply for an extension of a tourist visa permission to stay 2 months before the 60 day permission  ends. 

 

 

[thecyclist]

Isn't the first extension of a tourist visa just a matter of  routine.Never heard of this being an issue. 

Didn't know you could go through an agency for an extension.Don't you have to do that in person?

[moe666]

get over your self, you are not a tourist. and if you are doing computer work in Thailand you are working. It is people such as your self who cause the crack downs and the changes in the way the rules are enforced. Move to Cambodia make life easier for yourself

[Ronuk]

5 minutes ago, moe666 said:

get over your self, you are not a tourist. and if you are doing computer work in Thailand you are working. It is people such as your self who cause the crack downs and the changes in the way the rules are enforced. Move to Cambodia make life easier for yourself

The serial visa runners are on borrowed time.

[moe666]

2 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

The serial visa runners are on borrowed time.

very true slowly but surely, but they still think they are special. loved the bit about threating to move away with the girlfriend

[jspill]

4 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Unless you are bribing someone to bend the rules, you can't apply for an extension of a tourist visa permission to stay 2 months before the 60 day permission  ends. 

 

Have you tried it? No. I have, it worked fine. Show me the rule saying I can't do it before any particular date? There isn't one. 

[ThailandLOS]

"I should maybe add that I have always been polite without being submissive. ........

Any feedback is welcome."

 

I suggest you try submission next time. Might be her thing...

[europeannomad]

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

None of us have any right to an extension of stay as it is entirely at the discretion of Immigration. The IO has the right to decline your application, however, if it is declined you have the right to appeal.

 

If you were to appeal I doubt you'd win because of the time you've been staying here as a 'tourist'. Their records confirm you are not a 'tourist'. A 'tourist', in the eyes of Immigration, is a someone visiting for a short time and leaves. When assessing whether or not someone is a 'tourist' they will more likely to want to see flights out of the country, hotel bookings or anything else a typical tourist would have. Showing you have x in the bank doesn't really help as it's not just about being able to afford to live here, it's also about living here with, what they consider, an appropriate visa/permit. The IO is entitled to request you have 20K cash.

 

elvajero, thank you for your time and answer.

 

Entirely at the discretion of the immigration officer. If there were no limits of discretion, she could refuse me the extension legally because she doesn't like my face. I don't believe that, there must be conditions. Are you 100% sure about that? What sources are your arguments based on?

 

Personally I never heard of anybody who got his tourist visa extension denied for the reason of not being a real tourist. There are people that even change their passports and still get their visas and extensions over periods of 10 years or even more. I would say that I am at least 50% tourist as I really travelled a lot during the last 2 years and as I don't work. The other 50% (stay with girlfriend at a home) are maybe not that typical for a tourist, agreed. But there are certainly worse cases than me.

 

Anyway. The additional question I had was about the competences. Isn't it in the competence of the embassy to check available funds, choice of appropriate visa, true nature of stay, etc.? It seems to me that this should be considered in the visa process, but not the extension process, unless an abuse is really obvious, like fake educational visa. Which in my case definitely isn't the case.

 

And my last question. Where could I make this appeal? Just in case.

[darrendsd]

14 minutes ago, europeannomad said:

 

elvajero, thank you for your time and answer.

 

Entirely at the discretion of the immigration officer. If there were no limits of discretion, she could refuse me the extension legally because she doesn't like my face. I don't believe that, there must be conditions. Are you 100% sure about that? What sources are your arguments based on?

 

Personally I never heard of anybody who got his tourist visa extension denied for the reason of not being a real tourist. There are people that even change their passports and still get their visas and extensions over periods of 10 years or even more. I would say that I am at least 50% tourist as I really travelled a lot during the last 2 years and as I don't work. The other 50% (stay with girlfriend at a home) are maybe not that typical for a tourist, agreed. But there are certainly worse cases than me.

 

Anyway. The additional question I had was about the competences. Isn't it in the competence of the embassy to check available funds, choice of appropriate visa, true nature of stay, etc.? It seems to me that this should be considered in the visa process, but not the extension process, unless an abuse is really obvious, like fake educational visa. Which in my case definitely isn't the case.

 

And my last question. Where could I make this appeal? Just in case.

 

 

 

 

[elviajero]

11 minutes ago, europeannomad said:

 

elvajero, thank you for your time and answer.

 

Entirely at the discretion of the immigration officer. If there were no limits of discretion, she could refuse me the extension legally because she doesn't like my face. I don't believe that, there must be conditions. Are you 100% sure about that? What sources are your arguments based on?

 

Personally I never heard of anybody who got his tourist visa extension denied for the reason of not being a real tourist. There are people that even change their passports and still get their visas and extensions over periods of 10 years or even more. I would say that I am at least 50% tourist as I really travelled a lot during the last 2 years and as I don't work. The other 50% (stay with girlfriend at a home) are maybe not that typical for a tourist, agreed. But there are certainly worse cases than me.

 

Anyway. The additional question I had was about the competences. Isn't it in the competence of the embassy to check available funds, choice of appropriate visa, true nature of stay, etc.? It seems to me that this should be considered in the visa process, but not the extension process, unless an abuse is really obvious, like fake educational visa. Which in my case definitely isn't the case.

 

And my last question. Where could I make this appeal? Just in case.

 

It is so frustrating when people misquote/misrepresent what has been written.

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

None of us have any right to an extension of stay as it is entirely at the discretion of Immigration. The IO has the right to decline your application, however, if it is declined you have the right to appeal.

To clarify, I said at the discretion of Immigration not Immigration Officer. And that comment was simply to point out that there is nothing in law that says we have a right to an extension of stay. The Immigration Act (section 35) allows for extensions of stay "deemed necessary" to be issued, but it doesn't specify the conditions and criteria that need to be met for a given reason to extend. The conditions and criteria for the consideration of an extension are issued by the Royal Thai Police Bureau. So it's entirely up to the people running Immigration policy on extensions to decide who qualifies. If those people decide to start declining applicants that have been living in the country as a tourist they can.

I haven't heard of it happening either. My point is that if the 'bosses' decide to stop issuing extensions for long term tourists they can from the power given under the Immigration Act. That power would be passed down to the IO's.

 

I spent my first 14 years here as a 'tourist' and I am sure that immigration didn't care so much in the past, but as more and more people come to live here the authorities are under greater pressure to police what is clearly a loophole in the system. 

 

If an IO declines your application you can appeal, in writing, to the senior officer at that office or regional office.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, darrendsd said:

 

He has no sources, it is his opinion which he has been told he should state as his opinion when posting so other posters don't read his posts as facts

 

There is no problem in people stating their opinions on this forum but they should clearly state that they are opinions and not facts, it saves confusion for others

Are you a moderator now because unless you are I will continue to ignore your opinion on the ridiculous notion that we have to clarify everything we write is opinion.

 

"What sources are your arguments based on?" Clearly @europeannomad understands that people posting on a forum are posting opinion.

 

"He has no sources"  I'm confused! Is that your opinion or fact?

[ThailandLOS]

11 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Are you a moderator now because unless you are I will continue to ignore your opinion on the ridiculous notion that we have to clarify everything we write is opinion.

 

"What sources are your arguments based on?" Clearly @europeannomad understands that people posting on a forum are posting opinion.

 

"He has no sources"  I'm confused! Is that your opinion or fact?

 

He is a wannabe moderator, like so many other on here. People that get grumpy when others don't follow their home invented rules.

[bkkrooftop]

I would say u should work on being submissive. "Being polite w/o being submissive" appears to me u go in there thinking u are on her same level or even deserved something.  Which is neither in he case of immigration. If i lived in a small town in thai and did back to back visas , id be bringing her Durian and a whole roasted chicken everytime i saw her. Along with a wai and a huge smile.  Kissing ass and compliments go along way in certain situations. Imo i think your screwed. Any appeal is not going to help but bury u.  This is why the elite was made. Funny when someone continually breaks he rules and then complains about a lady enforcing the rules over 2yrs. She actually was lenient on u and u continually pushed it. Polite while not submissive. Sorry but u sound like a farang here that seems entitled.  Maybe not so but u should def.try being more than just polite when u are around officials that are in charge of your relaxing life. Sorry for the sarcasm but these posts are funny. 

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, europeannomad said:

 

elvajero, thank you for your time and answer.

 

Entirely at the discretion of the immigration officer. If there were no limits of discretion, she could refuse me the extension legally because she doesn't like my face. I don't believe that, there must be conditions. Are you 100% sure about that? What sources are your arguments based on?

 

Personally I never heard of anybody who got his tourist visa extension denied for the reason of not being a real tourist. There are people that even change their passports and still get their visas and extensions over periods of 10 years or even more. I would say that I am at least 50% tourist as I really travelled a lot during the last 2 years and as I don't work. The other 50% (stay with girlfriend at a home) are maybe not that typical for a tourist, agreed. But there are certainly worse cases than me.

 

Anyway. The additional question I had was about the competences. Isn't it in the competence of the embassy to check available funds, choice of appropriate visa, true nature of stay, etc.? It seems to me that this should be considered in the visa process, but not the extension process, unless an abuse is really obvious, like fake educational visa. Which in my case definitely isn't the case.

 

And my last question. Where could I make this appeal? Just in case.

 

I appreciate your frustration, and I am somewhat sympathetic. However, I think you are not alone in misunderstanding the original intent of extensions of tourist entries. The original idea was that they would be exceptional requests by tourists who change their plans and stay longer than they originally intended. Otherwise, why not just allow the consulates to issue a visa with a longer entry on payment of a higher application fee? In fact, at one time, you pretty easily could apply for a "social visa" allowing for a 90 day entry. As a practical matter, immigration have got into a habit of granting extensions without you needing to provide a reason for your change of plan. That does not mean the extension is not at the discretion of the immigration official. It is, and the fact that you evidently entered the country intending to stay more than 60 days (not a change of plan) is actually sufficient justification for the official to refuse you if she so wants. Unlucky.

[lkv]

3 hours ago, jspill said:

 

Have you tried it? No. I have, it worked fine. Show me the rule saying I can't do it before any particular date? There isn't one. 

 

You're right, there isn't one, but as mentioned before, extensions are in theory at the discretion of Immigration, and as a rule of thumb Bangkok Chaengwatthana will do an extension half way through the permission of stay, meaning after 30 days into the 60 days. Other offices later. What is the earliest that you have done one, and secondly, if the IO tells you: come back later, what would you do, start arguing with them about unwritten rules?

Let's not forget it's Thailand we are talking about.

[jspill]

6 hours ago, Ronuk said:

The serial visa runners are on borrowed time.

 

People have been telling me that on Thaivisa since 2010. Don't hold your breath for visa runners to be no more. 

 

1 hour ago, lkv said:

 

You're right, there isn't one, but as mentioned before, extensions are in theory at the discretion of Immigration, and as a rule of thumb Bangkok Chaengwatthana will do an extension half way through the permission of stay, meaning after 30 days into the 60 days. Other offices later. What is the earliest that you have done one, and secondly, if the IO tells you: come back later, what would you do, start arguing with them about unwritten rules?

Let's not forget it's Thailand we are talking about.

 

I've done it 2 days into the 60 days, but I use an agent. Indeed let's not forget it's Thailand where there's a loophole / fixer for everything. 

 

Was just a suggestion to solve OP's problem, I don't care to start a debate. If OP just did his extensions in BKK with an agent = problem solved.

[thaibook]

Immigration officials have great discretion in allowing someone into the country,  The IO may refuse entry even if one has a valid visa.  This is in just about every country, not just Thailand.  An extension of stay is in effect a permission to stay in the country so it would seem logical that an official who has the power to deny entry would have the power to prevent continued stay.

 

If you follow bkkrooftop's advice, I suggest you wait for her to be leaving the office before giving her the durian.  You would not wish her colleagues to recognise the tell tale signs and be jealous so if you go there regularly you might bring a little extra once a year - say at Loy Kratong - and ask her to distribute.

[europeannomad]

8 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

It is so frustrating when people misquote/misrepresent what has been written.

To clarify, I said at the discretion of Immigration not Immigration Officer. And that comment was simply to point out that there is nothing in law that says we have a right to an extension of stay. The Immigration Act (section 35) allows for extensions of stay "deemed necessary" to be issued, but it doesn't specify the conditions and criteria that need to be met for a given reason to extend. The conditions and criteria for the consideration of an extension are issued by the Royal Thai Police Bureau. So it's entirely up to the people running Immigration policy on extensions to decide who qualifies. If those people decide to start declining applicants that have been living in the country as a tourist they can.

I haven't heard of it happening either. My point is that if the 'bosses' decide to stop issuing extensions for long term tourists they can from the power given under the Immigration Act. That power would be passed down to the IO's.

 

I spent my first 14 years here as a 'tourist' and I am sure that immigration didn't care so much in the past, but as more and more people come to live here the authorities are under greater pressure to police what is clearly a loophole in the system. 

 

If an IO declines your application you can appeal, in writing, to the senior officer at that office or regional office.

 

Understood. But even if there is no written law that says we are entitled to get the extensions, this has been handled like this for many years. And currently it is still handled like this. In this case it's customary law. Customary law can also be a legal basis. In my opinion, by treating me differently than anybody else, the immigration officer violates the customary law to grant an extension if there are no obvious factors against it. And by doing so, she violates the human right of equal treatment. Of course I know that Thailand is not a  fully developed state of law yet. But this seems so basic to me that I still believe that something can be done. Maybe I will talk to a local lawyer.

[europeannomad]

5 hours ago, jspill said:

 

People have been telling me that on Thaivisa since 2010. Don't hold your breath for visa runners to be no more. 

 

 

I've done it 2 days into the 60 days, but I use an agent. Indeed let's not forget it's Thailand where there's a loophole / fixer for everything. 

 

Was just a suggestion to solve OP's problem, I don't care to start a debate. If OP just did his extensions in BKK with an agent = problem solved.

 

Jspill thank you for your answer and your creative way of solving the problem.

 

A russian man I once met on a travel told me that corruption has also its good sides. He explained that in a corrupt country there is a solution for everything as everything has a price. In a state of law, it's not like this, and even if you need something very urgently, you can't get it if it's illegal.

 

Well your proposal seems interesting. I don't like doing it, though, because if the immigration here will recognize what I did, they will maybe become even more aggressive. But I would like to keep this possibility as a future option. 

 

How can I find this agent in Sukhumwit?

[ericthai]

15 minutes ago, europeannomad said:

 

Well your proposal seems interesting. I don't like doing it, though, because if the immigration here will recognize what I did, they will maybe become even more aggressive. But I would like to keep this possibility as a future option. 

 

and like immigration will not get upset if you use a lawyer to try and tell immigration they are wrong because of customary law...555 you really have not been in Thailand long have you. You are not the first to be questioned and will not be the first to be denied.  You are living full time in Thailand on a tourist visa, immigration will tell you if you want to live in Thailand full time get the correct visa.  I dont know where guys like you get the idea that you have the right to live in Thailand, you dont it's all up to immigration and what they want to do. Cracking down on people living full time in Thailand on tourist and ED visas has been going on for at least 10 years. First over stay fees went up from 150B a day to 500B a day. Then making visa requirements harder, then crack down on back to back visa exempt visas and crack down on ED visas, implementing blacklists for over-stayers etc etc   When I first came to Thailand things were so simple and easy, but due to guys abusing a loop hole Thailand started cracking down. I used to be able to get a Multi B visa with only a letter from an employer back in the 90's now you have to provide a suitcase full of documents, all because of guys trying to buck the system.

 

If you want to stay in Thailand full time get a proper visa, SETV, METV, NON-B,  Thai Elite card.. something not just visa exempt and dont try to use western law logic in Thailand it's not the same game!

[jspill]

4 minutes ago, ericthai said:

<snip>

 

If you want to stay in Thailand full time get a proper visa, SETV, METV, NON-B,  Thai Elite card.. something not just visa exempt and dont try to use western law logic in Thailand it's not the same game!

 

Thanks for the big nonsense rant. Those crackdowns are aimed at criminals, illegal workers, marriage shams, ATM skimmers, etc. etc. not someone just staying on tourist visas. There's no 'loophole' being exploited there, no one on Thaivisa can produce any definitive link to say we're not allowed to live here on tourist visas, it's all conjecture and you can keep it to yourself.

 

He is on SETVs, not visa exempts, not sure what thread you're even reading.

 

People have been living here on tourist visas for decades, it's not really that hard. He just got unlucky to run into one moody lady in one province who is reluctant to process the 30 day extension on the SETV. Not the end of the world. He could just drive across to a different province and use the immigration building there, a day trip away somewhere every 60 days. 

 

 

[jspill]

27 minutes ago, europeannomad said:

Well your proposal seems interesting. I don't like doing it, though, because if the immigration here will recognize what I did, they will maybe become even more aggressive. But I would like to keep this possibility as a future option. 

 

How can I find this agent in Sukhumwit?

 

I'll send you a PM. 

 

Your local immigration would never see your passport again. You don't need to do 90 day reports because you're on a visa run every 90 days. No need to ever step foot in that immigration building again if you did extensions in BKK via agent or just drove over to a nearby province and did them somewhere else.

[europeannomad]

7 hours ago, bkkrooftop said:

I would say u should work on being submissive. "Being polite w/o being submissive" appears to me u go in there thinking u are on her same level or even deserved something.  Which is neither in he case of immigration. If i lived in a small town in thai and did back to back visas , id be bringing her Durian and a whole roasted chicken everytime i saw her. Along with a wai and a huge smile.  Kissing ass and compliments go along way in certain situations. Imo i think your screwed. Any appeal is not going to help but bury u.  This is why the elite was made. Funny when someone continually breaks he rules and then complains about a lady enforcing the rules over 2yrs. She actually was lenient on u and u continually pushed it. Polite while not submissive. Sorry but u sound like a farang here that seems entitled.  Maybe not so but u should def.try being more than just polite when u are around officials that are in charge of your relaxing life. Sorry for the sarcasm but these posts are funny. 

 

bkkrooftop, thank you. If you read my posts, you can see well that I didn't break any rules. As said by others, tourist visa extension is usually given and nothing justifies trating me differently.

 

Anyway, there has been a story last year that doesn't allow me to be submissive anymore. My girlfriend changed the school, and the new school did not process her papers for several month despite having promised it in the contract. After a while, I also went to the school and tried to help my girlfriend. It came out that this school had not processed the papers of many foreign teachers in the past years and that everybody knew about it apart from us. We went to the immigration office to solve the problem. This same woman promised us to call the school and to encourage them to process the papers correctly. But she never did, in fact she just covered this school despite the fact that the school violated law and work contract. My girlfriend got serious visa problems because of this and got nearly deported. Only because I went to Vientiane with her and acted as a guarantor she got the last tourist visa. Happily she found a more serious school for the new school year, and now everything is fine.

 

Of course I told to this immigration officer that she should call the school and help us, and I did it clearly. She didn't like it but said yes, because she knew that it is a problem school and that we were right. We had a lot of discussions, but never in an unpolite way, just constructive discussions. In hindsight I think that she might have perceived our discussions differently. But I don't care about it, we will just leave to another province if no solution for my extensions can be found.

 

What I want to say is that I could not go back anymore and play a submissive person with a durian. She knows that I am not, she knows that I am the exact opposite of submissive. Despite this, until now she only made me wait for hours every time (even with an empty office), but in the end still gave me the extensions.

[Evilbaz]

Reading this IMO you're stuffed as long as she remains in your local office.

Better rethink your plan.

Going to another office will necessitate establishing an address there different to the address on which your permission to stay is based.

[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, Evilbaz said:

Going to another office will necessitate establishing an address there different to the address on which your permission to stay is based.

That would not be needed for an extension of a tourist visa entry. Just a local address which could be from an overnight stay in a hotel.