Injustice echoes from all sides two years after Koh Tao murders

[sweatalot]

1 hour ago, Toscano said:

In the same justice system , had they been Thai they would have been executed by now .  The Thai police have been accused of incompetence , the waters have been muddied !

The accused look like two innocent babes that couldn't possibly have committed such a horrendous crime .  I still believe they did it ; having consumed a fair bit of alcohol while working in the bar ; it doesn't take too much to get orientals really drunk .

 

declared guilty by believe ...

Evidence?

[happy Joe]

Between formal justice and internet speculation I choose the first.

[Baerboxer]

56 minutes ago, DM07 said:

First: it is ONE family that has swallowed the explanation by courts and RTP, hook, line and sinker!

Second, I really get aggressive, when I hear this BS- argument!

They have seen more than the public has?

And why is that?

One of the most high profile cases, that gaines international interest...IF there was anything, that the families have seen, that is so much more convincing than anything that was published so far...wouldn't it be in the interest of ALL (RTP, courts, public, even the families of the victims...all 4 of them!), that this overwhelming evidence would be made available?

There was not hing more, than the muppet show, we all followed!

And that is the end of it!

A travesty, a perversion of justice and a very, very sad joke!

 

No one cares whether you get aggressive or not. No courts, police, or people involved in such cases feel obliged to make all their evidence, reports,  information and decisions available for scrutiny by anyone who fancies. Much less a bunch of expats on a website forum.

Rob's right - we, and that includes you, have no idea what the families know, what the authorities released to them that wasn't made public, what the British police told the families, etc etc.

 

We have seen how the Thai justice and law enforcement system works, and how that is very different than what we're used to. And Thai authorities don't usually feel obliged to make their decisions open to public debate, especially by farangs who have little rights here.

 

This case appears, rightly or wrongly, to be done and dusted now. What really happened on that fateful night is never ever likely to be disclosed in a way that is beyond questioning. So sad for victims, their families and friends and whilst people may speculate that all it's ever likely to be.

 

 

[Baerboxer]

24 minutes ago, DM07 said:

Investigating?

I hope you are not talking about the smoke-and-mirror-show, including the 7 day holiday for some police men who were expressively not allowed to investigate ANYTHING!?

 

You actually have no idea who came, how long they were here, what they did, what they found out and what the report said.

 

But of course, you'll comment as if you do.

[Gunna]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

IMHO the family has had access to far more information then anyone here on the forum and also has far more at stake.. so I kinda trust their judgement. The family has had information from the UK police and other info.

 

Anyway like you I have not followed this closely but I would certainly think that the family had a lot at stake here and would have had far more information and would know more then most .. if not all.. on this forum.

 

Just because we have not seen it does not mean its not there.

Probably haven't seen the info the RTP had below because some-one made it disappear

 

23 September 2014

"The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

 

Below didn't happen either, instead Police Commissioner was removed and Mafia is still there 

"Instead the police will eliminate all these mafias, he said.

Meanwhile a police source said  the police are also looking into the cooperation of those who helped to arrange the suspect to escape. They also will be arrested."

 

[scorecard]

37 minutes ago, AlQaholic said:

I visit koh Tao occasionally and the things I am told about Burmese workers on the Island, especially construction workers are actually quiet horrible, rape being one of the things most often mentioned especially gang rapes. Just because they are little guys and look innocent.......

I am not judging, just saying.....

 

So you make an instant assumption, based on third hand gossip that many / all Burmese are simply very bad people and often indulge in rapes and especially gang rapes.

 

Balanced?

[bangrak]

May I remind the posters about another 'anomaly': though legally admissible in Thailand, it was quite 'special' to see such a double murder, and rape, case to be ruled over by a single judge Criminal Court chamber, while it seems mostly chambers with three judges are considered the norm here when murder charges are being pressed...

[greenchair]

And there goes that lie again. 

We went home at 2am and went to sleep. 

I find telephone in the night while walking home. 

When if fact Wei Phyo went back to the beach at between 4 and 5am and then "found" the deceased phone. Or so Wei Phyo says. 

Unfortunately, I do often wonder if Zaw Lin is innocent with Wei Phyo trying to ride on his coat tails. 

[smedly]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

IMHO the family has had access to far more information then anyone here on the forum and also has far more at stake.. so I kinda trust their judgement. The family has had information from the UK police and other info.

 

Anyway like you I have not followed this closely but I would certainly think that the family had a lot at stake here and would have had far more information and would know more then most .. if not all.. on this forum.

 

Just because we have not seen it does not mean its not there.

I am very surprised at that post from you, it is ill informed and quite frankly nonsense, these two migrants were convicted on physical DNA original sample  evidence that was never produced to the court or defence and somehow the plentiful original samples got lost - were used up (impossible) or never existed - you chose............................one thing I can tell you with 100% certainty is that based on the above I have written - no western court - justice system or international standard would allow the submission of such testimony without the original samples of DNA being made available, there are however extremely rare situations were sample size of DNA is in fact so small that provisions and special procedures under law are in place to ensure the integrity of such evidence were processing may result in the total exhaustion of such physical evidence - this is extremely rare and in this case were claimed sperm samples existed - quite impossible to exhaust that evidence       

[DM07]

28 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

No one cares whether you get aggressive or not. No courts, police, or people involved in such cases feel obliged to make all their evidence, reports,  information and decisions available for scrutiny by anyone who fancies. Much less a bunch of expats on a website forum.

Rob's right - we, and that includes you, have no idea what the families know, what the authorities released to them that wasn't made public, what the British police told the families, etc etc.

 

We have seen how the Thai justice and law enforcement system works, and how that is very different than what we're used to. And Thai authorities don't usually feel obliged to make their decisions open to public debate, especially by farangs who have little rights here.

 

This case appears, rightly or wrongly, to be done and dusted now. What really happened on that fateful night is never ever likely to be disclosed in a way that is beyond questioning. So sad for victims, their families and friends and whilst people may speculate that all it's ever likely to be.

 

 

I am always quiet baffled, when I read this kind of BS! 

Yeah it is really sad...especially because YOU are not behind bars for the rest of your life, so you can nonchalantly just brush it off!

It was a high profile case, with international following and you are telling me -in this day and age, where EVERYTHING gets into the light of public, sooner or later- there is a magic bullet, that was only disclosed, in private and secret, to the parents of the murdered victims.

Not to the defense team, not to any journalist?

In a country, where every Somchai, Suthipong and Thanakorn constantly runs their mouth in front of every microphone, that gets stuffed in their stupid faces?!

 

[PattayaBoy]

IMHO the family has had access to far more information then anyone here on the forum and also has far more at stake.. so I kinda trust their judgement. The family has had information from the UK police and other info.

 

Anyway like you I have not followed this closely but I would certainly think that the family had a lot at stake here and would have had far more information and would know more then most .. if not all.. on this forum.

 

Just because we have not seen it does not mean its not there.

U sure?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/12093087/Sister-of-murdered-British-tourist-Hannah-Witheridge-attacks-bungling-Thai-police.html

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[PattayaBoy]

Channel 4 doc. Murder in Paradise

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Scouse123]

Some people here seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the families of the victims and British police evidence.

 

The Police from the UK were far from happy with the Thai police and the way the investigation was carried out and said so when they returned to the UK and were CONSTANTLY MISQUOTED by the THAI press.

 

The British police were muzzled and ordered to discuss nothing with the press or TV by the UK government. They were herded like buffalo to see only what the Thai police wished to show. Any further inquiries were treated with hostility and reminders that this fell under the jurisdiction of Thai law. The whole visit of the UK police was a charade by the British government to add legitimacy to a disgustingly flawed investigation.

 

Prayut stated his opinions as to what had gone on and how the case was to proceed from the outset without being in receipt of the facts.He made it clear they were guilty, so you can forget any chance of independent reports or opinions, even doctors were threatened for not toeing the official line, and DNA was announced linking the boys before it was humanly possible in that time frame to have carried out such tests. Of course when the defence wished to retest the DNA, they said it had all been used up!!!.......

 

Of course the Thai police would have been ' fawning ' all over the victims families. They find this about as difficult as pressing 10 fingers together to form an insincere apology when it suits them.

 

The Thai police are WELL KNOWN FOR THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR Make no mistake, the Thai police will have been briefed and scripted as to what had to be said to the victims families. When they say they are carrying out further investigations, what they are actually doing is ensuring they have heard all sides, formed their ploy and have the means to rebut any allegations. They use ' INVESTIGATIONS '  as a means to protect their vile behaviour and get their story together, not as a means of justice.

 

 

[Remus1830]

The locals know the real story and for sure the DNA would not be missing if it showed that the 2 poor kids in prison did the crime. 

[Nasrullah]

2 hours ago, Brer Fox said:

Just to remind people of the initial direction of the investigation.

 

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run/

 

Then immediately after that a complete change in the direction of the investigation.

Like the old saying "he who pays the piper calls the tune".

Amazing really!....TRP were very boisterous about the 2 son's of a village head honcho...CCTV n'all.......then the burmese 2 

arrived....

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, smedly said:

I am very surprised at that post from you, it is ill informed and quite frankly nonsense, these two migrants were convicted on physical DNA original sample  evidence that was never produced to the court or defence and somehow the plentiful original samples got lost - were used up (impossible) or never existed - you chose............................one thing I can tell you with 100% certainty is that based on the above I have written - no western court - justice system or international standard would allow the submission of such testimony without the original samples of DNA being made available, there are however extremely rare situations were sample size of DNA is in fact so small that provisions and special procedures under law are in place to ensure the integrity of such evidence were processing may result in the total exhaustion of such physical evidence - this is extremely rare and in this case were claimed sperm samples existed - quite impossible to exhaust that evidence       

I am saying that i trust the family more then you and any other in making judgement believing they are kept in the loop more then you I or anyone on this forum. I also believe that for them there was far more at stake then anyone on this forum so they would not have come lightly to this decision. 

 

They have seen more evidence then any of us, have talked with the British cops too. 

 

Now you might think that is ill informed so be it.. I believe they had the most information and the most at stake..  Those are my views.

 

Would I bet my life on it that they are guilty.. No I wont.. But I do believe that the family knows more then all your internet detectives together. 

[robblok]

50 minutes ago, Gunna said:

Probably haven't seen the info the RTP had below because some-one made it disappear

 

23 September 2014

"The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

 

Below didn't happen either, instead Police Commissioner was removed and Mafia is still there 

"Instead the police will eliminate all these mafias, he said.

Meanwhile a police source said  the police are also looking into the cooperation of those who helped to arrange the suspect to escape. They also will be arrested."

 

Gunna,

 

You have never seen the police do a U turn before.. I remember many last one was that they thought it was the reds that bombed the south and changed it to the militants later on. Its not the first nor the last time and it certainly does not always mean a cover up and so on. 

 

I said what I wanted to say im done arguing here.. I keep my opinion that I believe the family knows more and are better equipped then internet detectives to make judgement and for them there is far more at stake. How did you guys even check if your evidence was real ? Its easy to call the BIB their evidence fabricated.. but who has ever validated all this "internet" evidence.

 

Again.. I would not bet my life on it that these guys are guilty.. but think the family knows best.. and i stay with that opinion.

[Scouse123]

The British police can use DNA kept from crime scenes 30 and 40 years ago whilst they were waiting the relevant technology to now capture and convict criminals in 2016.

 

However, in one of the biggest ever crime murder cases Thailand has ever had especially regards foreigners, the Thai police are asking you to believe, (which ever newspaper you read), that the DNA was (a) conclusive (b) lost (c) misplaced. (d) used up.

 

Scandalous absolutely mind-blowing that they expect us to believe this. But, they are not used to questioning or scrutiny as The good General constantly shows on TV when asked something he cannot answer.

[catman20]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

Anyone with only half a brain already knows that they have been set-up.

maybe you should be talking to the Thai government if your that sure

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

The British police were muzzled and ordered to discuss nothing with the press or TV by the UK government. They were herded like buffalo to see only what the Thai police wished to show. Any further inquiries were treated with hostility and reminders that this fell under the jurisdiction of Thai law. The whole visit of the UK police was a charade by the British government to add legitimacy to a disgustingly flawed investigation.

 

It would be naive in the extreme to believe that British Police did not know what was going on. They are not stupid, particularly at that level. Telling the public about it is a different matter which unfortunately fuels the suspicion among the sort that expect updates in their inbox simply because they have a FB account. They should perhaps swat up on Data Protection legislation and the appropriate convention(s) to understand why such updates weren't and never will be forthcoming.

[KarenBravo]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

the families are split actually and neither are equipped to make a judgement on the technicalities of legal process, as I have repeated many times - it all comes down to the inability of the prosecution to produce the original samples of DNA for verification and based on that there is no physical (produced) evidence linking the two accused to the crime, the police claim tests were a match but without the actual evidence it is nothing more than that - a claim, and therefore hearsay, the conviction was based on physical DNA evidence that was never produced to the court, lets no go there again as it has been done over and over

 

All very true, but....

Thai law has no verbatim records of court proceedings. The only one allowed to take notes is the judge.....if they feel like it.

It is also against the law to criticize a judge (mini lese-majeste).

Was the verdict really a surprise? We are in a country that values appearance over truth.

The Thai justice system needs reforming root and branch. Until that happens, not much is going to change.

[aslimversgwm]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

the families are split actually and neither are equipped to make a judgement on the technicalities of legal process, as I have repeated many times - it all comes down to the inability of the prosecution to produce the original samples of DNA for verification and based on that there is no physical (produced) evidence linking the two accused to the crime, the police claim tests were a match but without the actual evidence it is nothing more than that - a claim, and therefore hearsay, the conviction was based on physical DNA evidence that was never produced to the court, lets no go there again as it has been done over and over

once again smedly you summarise the issue clearly and succinctly for those still not clear why the 2 Burmese lads convictions are a complete travesty of justice. Thank you so much for this and your continued support. Any news on the appeal? Anyone? 

[swanny321]

  Money can't buy you love; but it can.....

[chainarong]

My recollection is a senior police officer stated right at the beginning , the DNA indicates that it wasn't an Asian, why say that if it was known it was an Asian, has anyone else involved with this case indicated the DNA type............................................... 

[smedly]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am saying that i trust the family more then you and any other in making judgement believing they are kept in the loop more then you I or anyone on this forum. I also believe that for them there was far more at stake then anyone on this forum so they would not have come lightly to this decision. 

 

They have seen more evidence then any of us, have talked with the British cops too. 

 

Now you might think that is ill informed so be it.. I believe they had the most information and the most at stake..  Those are my views.

 

Would I bet my life on it that they are guilty.. No I wont.. But I do believe that the family knows more then all your internet detectives together. 

I trust the evidence that is presented in court (or actually lack of it), it has nothing to do with the families, they are not lawyers or legal experts and their opinions are of no consequence

 

It is in the court room that these (IMO) flawed convictions were made based on the evidence that the judge was willing to believe, I know about these things and I can tell you that what was written in my 2x previous posts on this thread is fact and 100% correct, if you had experience of such matters you could not argue against what I stated - and I will repeat it for you

 

No actual physical DNA evidence was presented, no actual original samples were made available to either the court or the defence - THIS MAKES IT INADMISSABLE

 

A simplistic example of something similar -

- Police say they test a handgun they found in the accused possession and it is a ballistic match to the bullet that killed a murder victim.

- The defence say we don't believe you we want to test that evidence ourselves

- Oh sorry we don't have the gun or bullet anymore

- court rules the evidence as inadmissible ..............................end of case

 

It really is as simple as that, police cannot simply make claims about physical evidence without producing it, and that accounts for pretty much everything - cctv - weapons - dna - various samples , IT COVERS ALL "PHYSICAL" EVIDENCE...............NO EXCEPTIONS

 

 

The families have absolutely nothing to do with this conviction unless they were involved in the crime and gave evidence - they are spectators like everyone else the difference being that some people just might be experienced in such matters for example - could be lawyers or police current or retired - it is obvious you are neither and also the families

[swanny321]

3 minutes ago, smedly said:

No actual physical DNA evidence was presented, no actual original samples were made available to either the court or the defence - THIS MAKES IT INADMISSABLE

 

    How VERY convenient! Now what about CCTV footage?

[smedly]

2 minutes ago, swanny321 said:

 

    How VERY convenient! Now what about CCTV footage?

the police were in control of all evidence including hours of cctv evidence - they were denied access to cctv from the bar the victims were last know to be alive - go figure

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

 

The family has had talks with the English cops that were investigating, they were also informed by the cops. 

 

Anyway you got your opinion and I got mine. 

It is my understanding that the Bill weren't allowed any investigations while here, but toured around and shown and told by the BIB the standard line, it was them - the two scapegoats.

I am sure they came to some conclusions of their own, but without anything concrete they would have to hold their tongues.

[swanny321]

4 minutes ago, smedly said:

the police were in control of all evidence including hours of cctv evidence - they were denied access to cctv from the bar the victims were last know to be alive - go figure

 

  So you're indicating a cover-up by the bar...?

5 minutes ago, smedly said:

they were denied access to cctv from the bar

  that is a very curious statement...surely no-one could DENY the police!

[ianf]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

IMHO the family has had access to far more information then anyone here on the forum and also has far more at stake.. so I kinda trust their judgement. The family has had information from the UK police and other info.

 

Anyway like you I have not followed this closely but I would certainly think that the family had a lot at stake here and would have had far more information and would know more then most .. if not all.. on this forum.

 

Just because we have not seen it does not mean its not there.

I wouldn't trust their judgement for one second. Besides only part of the family were duped into believing Justice was seen. There is a huge disparity between those tourists' views who spend small amount of time here and those of us who live here and see this SH** every day of the week. We know how they lie and manipulate. We know how much money talks and we know that behind that lovely smile, there's a dagger pointed at your heart. There is no doubt, 100%. that these poor kids are innocent. The powers that be know that also but in this country loss of face is far more important than people's lives. And how many times have we seen that over the years??? Not just my view here. My wife's, her family and many Thai friends. They all KNOW (I emphasize that word in caps) that the Burma 2 are innocent.