chiang mai 2016 vs. chiang mai 2002-which do you like better?

[Mark123456]

14 hours ago, godblessemall said:

Started visiting Chiangmai in 1989 and it was even better then.

First Tuk-Tuks only just arriving. In the old city many little sois had earthenware water pots with a coconut ladle outside many houses on special stands for passersby to drink from. No Starbucks. No Pizza Company (just Pizza Hut). Three Tantraphan stores. No Gard Suan Gaew. Lai Thai guest house just opened (very nice). Nimanhemun area completely undeveloped and had something called 'The Housewives Club"  

Was told by Thai men that to be able to claim to have visited ChiangMai (for Thais, not really farangs) one had to have done three things....1. eat Kao Soi (egg noodle curry soup) (delicious); 2. visit the temple on Doi Suthep (still popular and worth it); 3. visit (and partake of) Kampang Din.... Kampang Din means earth wall and refers to the old walls of the ancient city which were brick and earth construction. I know they are all about and in ruins in many parts of CM, but they were actually referring to only one place, the road beside the night market still called kampangdin road, particularly  the part South of the Imperial Mae Ping hotel, which at that time was still home to many brothels. (as we know Thai men when given the opportunity to travel away from home often enjoy the local delights on offer, and even if not single, once more than 50 km. from home consider themselves single again.)

Chiangmai is such an easy town to learn ones way about, because of the square old city and its contra-rotating traffic flow, Thapae gate/road, Narawat bridge, Ping river etc.

Chiangmai in the '90's was full of backpackers and trekking agencies with many hill=tribes still undeveloped to visit. In 1990 there was still only one real secondhand bookshop, right beside John's Place, which was still the biggest Go-Go bar then.

 

I still like to visit Changer's, but it isn't the 'Flower of the North' it was. Then again, change is the only thing one can guarantee in this world. We wear this body like a suit of armour, and peer out of it through two holes at the world around us, not feeling that we inside have changed with time, but those outside looking at us know different.

 

I would still rather live in CM than BKK given the choice.... how about you?

 

Nice post but I can't believe you have the audacity to say this: "as we know Thai men when given the opportunity to travel away from home often enjoy the local delights on offer, and even if not single, once more than 50 km. from home consider themselves single again". Of all the people I have met in Thailand, white, older, Western males have been by far the most enthusiastic about partaking in the delights of the flesh with ladies of the night. I'd almost go so far as to say it is a defining quality of Western males in Thailand.

 

I didn't come to Chiang Mai until 2006 and it was as boring as hell then so I would hate to have lived here 5, 10, 15, or 20 years before that. The traffic seems to have got worse since I've been here and more malls have sprung up of course but the main change has been that I don't go out drinking anymore, which radically changes one's perspective of any city. It's still an inconvenient place to live if you want to buy electronic equipment, musical instruments, or pretty much anything you care to mention really, but my brief visits to Bangkok have convinced me that I'm extremely unlikely to ever move back to the capital again; the traffic is simply too much for me these days. In Chiang Mai, I shop online, spend time with my family, and do my best to ignore the idiocy all around me (that's the human race in general not specific to people in this city or this country).

[naboo]

Lamphun, 2016. No tuktuks, the only department store is a row of shop houses three stories high, a traffic jam is when 6 cars are waiting to allow kids across the road outside Chakham School, foreigners are liked and not treated differently (well, maybe a special welcome), the young ladies of the town are "keen" and the coffee shops aren't chains.

 

Love it.

[trainman34014]

Been here for ten years now and in that time things have changed quite a bit but i wouldn't leave unless i was forced out.   Wherever you go in the World concrete and traffic will follow you unless you prefer the Australian Outback, North/South Pole or a few small Mud Hut Villages in Africa.

 

Memories are all we have of the past, even yesterday, and it's far better to live for today with hopes for tomorrow.

[lkn]

I would argue that to live in Chiang Mai is much better today than 10+ years ago, as we now have all the modern comforts, yet a lot of what’s nice about Thailand still exist here.

 

As a “tourist experience” it might have been better in the past, before it became “mainstream”, but you don’t have to travel that far from the city to get a less mainstream tourist experience. There are still hilltribe villages where foreigners rarely go and there are still neighbouring cities that have not become touristy or trendy.

 

In many ways, today is really the best time to be a tourist, yes, technology has “spoiled” some things, but at the same time, technology allows you (as a tourist) to do so much more. You can go pretty much anywhere you want with your passport, smartphone and credit card, without any of the worries of the past.

 

Need help from the locals? Your smartphone can translate and should that fail, it can show pictures. Need a place to sleep? You can book accommodation via your smartphone. Does the taxi driver not know about the guest house you booked? Your smartphone can show driving directions. Does the taxi driver refuse to take you or charge an obscene amount? Your smartphone can show public transportation options. Are you in the middle of nowhere and wonder if there are any sights of interest? Your smartphone can assist you in searching for other people’s experience in this area, etc. etc.

 

Sometimes I also feel a longing for the simpler times, back when everything was new and exciting, but then I think about what I have experienced in the last 10 years, and how little of that would have been possible, had it not been for the internet and my smartphone.

[Paagai]

I tend to agree with what the OP says, though my experiences and lifestyle from back in 2000 were perhaps different to the OP.  Back then Chiang Mai had something a bit special and magical; it was different to many other places.  Now it is becoming just another city and has lost the edginess that made it attractive.  Traffic and construction mayhem have done the rest.   And, it seems, the goose that laid the golden eggs has been slaughtered and is now only served up in restaurants for chinese tour groups.

 

But, for now all is not lost.  Still a few smaller towns in Northern Thailand that retain something unique and attractive about them, with something of that frontier feeling Chiang Mai used to have.  Maybe not for too long though.

 

Of course, it didn't have to be this way. Just take a look at how Luang Prabang has been preserved as a model for how things could have been.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Paagai

[A1Str8]

'16.

[godblessemall]

10 hours ago, Mark123456 said:

Nice post but I can't believe you have the audacity to say this: "as we know Thai men when given the opportunity to travel away from home often enjoy the local delights on offer, and even if not single, once more than 50 km. from home consider themselves single again". Of all the people I have met in Thailand, white, older, Western males have been by far the most enthusiastic about partaking in the delights of the flesh with ladies of the night. I'd almost go so far as to say it is a defining quality of Western males in Thailand.

 

 

Thai men visit brothels or massage parlours, but Western men visit go-go bars. Few Western men visit the massage parlours or brothels, and many brothels do not allow farangs to enter. So you will not see much of what the Thai men get up to.

[godblessemall]

11 hours ago, masuk said:

The air quality is bad much of the year now;  this has a lot to do with the hundreds of smoking song taews cruising around the city.   There appears to be no limits on how much smoke they can pour out.

 

Yes, why is that? I thought that motorcycles over five and cars over seven years old had to get a vehicle inspection before renewing tax each year, which is supposed to include checking exhaust gas. So why are there so many old pick-ups and trucks belching black smoke about? Do they just bribe their way or not bother to get checked/tax?

Is it one rule for cars and another for big trucks?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, godblessemall said:

 

Yes, why is that? I thought that motorcycles over five and cars over seven years old had to get a vehicle inspection before renewing tax each year, which is supposed to include checking exhaust gas. So why are there so many old pick-ups and trucks belching black smoke about? Do they just bribe their way or not bother to get checked/tax?

Is it one rule for cars and another for big trucks?

"Do they just bribe their way or not bother to get checked/tax?"

 

Bribes or ignoring laws?  Perish the thought!  Vehicle inspection laws are enforced as honestly and rigorously as motorcycle helmet laws.

[seedy]

Flaming post removed

[amexpat]

Common knowledge.

 

[Dante99]

3 hours ago, godblessemall said:

 

Thai men visit brothels or massage parlours, but Western men visit go-go bars. Few Western men visit the massage parlours or brothels, and many brothels do not allow farangs to enter. So you will not see much of what the Thai men get up to.

So true, that is one of the most offensive things about Thailand, being refused entry to brothels is just racist and unacceptable.  

[lkn]

2 hours ago, Dante99 said:

So true, that is one of the most offensive things about Thailand, being refused entry to brothels is just racist and unacceptable.  

 

I really hope that you’re joking.

 

Given what is offered by these girls, it’s not that hard to imagine why they would not feel comfortable with customers they cannot communicate with, and if you speak a little Thai, I hear that you can partake in the same pleasures as the Thais.

 

Also, you have entire cities like Pattaya and Patong where you can find all the Thai girls you want, and I don’t think Thai men are allowed in most of the venues there.

[stament]

I lov it, IMHO always better than anywhere else I have lived no matter what the year. 

[WinnieTheKhwai]

21 hours ago, kenk24 said:

I was first in CM in 1974... I don't think those days will return... but then, the world population has not remained stable either... sure, I miss some of the things you mention... but for a long time there was nothing better than a Nescafe instant either... life goes on - places get developed. 

 

This.

 

And personally, between 2002 and 2016 I really prefer 2016 and chances are things will get better still in the coming years.

 

That said, out of curiosity I would really, *REALLY* like to see 1974 and I'm member of all the 'Chiang Mai Memories' and 'Then and Now' groups and I have a couple old pictures to contribute myself from the early 1990s, but.. honestly it's a no-brainer for me.

 

Although I will say that the early 1990s were more suited to the person I was then, and 2016 is more suited to the person I am now, with kids to send to find a good school for, medical services, more stylish/luxurious places, excellent cafes, breads, pastries, coffee.  (Really does anyone remember what that was like?  Right.)

 

It's all good.  And getting better.

 

It's kind of like the difference between having ONLY this for coffee: 

 

 

Versus STILL having that, but also having lots of other incredible places.

 

 

Or when your car needs work, having to go here: 

 

 

OR still having those places, but also this.

 

 

I could probably go on.

 

Like only the Crusty Loaf section at the Irish Pub, versus lots of excellent little bakeries around town today, specifically l'Opera and Baan Bakery, but also the Dhara Dhevi bakery; heck, even Rimping does a good job.

 

And then there was all the completely hideous architecture in the 1960s->2010 or so.  Compared to the incredible architecture you see in the boutique hotels going up in the old town.

Edited November 25, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[hml367]

Chiang Mai Immigration office was much better and certainly much easier in 2002, if you want to compare exact years.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

1 hour ago, hml367 said:

Chiang Mai Immigration office was much better and certainly much easier in 2002, if you want to compare exact years.

 

No it wasn't.  There were just far fewer people. :)

 

And also objectively the Plomnada location gives you a lot more options to grab a coffee or pizza, instead of being stuck on some benches near the old office.

[hml367]

It was easier for me.

[LannaGuy]

1 hour ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

No it wasn't.  There were just far fewer people. :)

 

And also objectively the Plomnada location gives you a lot more options to grab a coffee or pizza, instead of being stuck on some benches near the old office.

 

maybe but you cant do the TM30 at promanaaada 

[Gonzo the Face]

Every place on this old planet has its +'s & -'s.  If you live in Chiang Mai and stay here, you love it and it is home....if you stay here and do not love it......it will never be home.   I... love my home and it will greatly sadden me to leave, be it by box or urn.

[kharmabum]

13 hours ago, lkn said:

Need help from the locals? Your smartphone can translate and should that fail, it can show pictures. Need a place to sleep? You can book accommodation via your smartphone. Does the taxi driver not know about the guest house you booked? Your smartphone can show driving directions. Does the taxi driver refuse to take you or charge an obscene amount? Your smartphone can show public transportation options. Are you in the middle of nowhere and wonder if there are any sights of interest? Your smartphone can assist you in searching for other people’s experience in this area, etc. etc.

 

Sometimes I also feel a longing for the simpler times, back when everything was new and exciting, but then I think about what I have experienced in the last 10 years, and how little of that would have been possible, had it not been for the internet and my smartphone.

 

unless you make your living with a computer(digital nomad), then everything you've done would have been possible without the internet or your smartphone.  and think of all the pathways you didn't walk down and the great little restauraunts you never ate at because they weren't fake liked on facebook or tripadvisor.   one of the reasons people used to come to thailand was to unplug from the matrix, and observe their self(with a small 's') spontaniously combust.   the best thing that could happen to farang in thailand is to have an elephant step on their smartphone.

[lkn]

12 minutes ago, kharmabum said:

[…] everything you've done would have been possible without the internet or your smartphone.  and think of all the pathways you didn't walk down and the great little restauraunts you never ate at because they weren't fake liked on facebook or tripadvisor.

 

You have no idea what I have been doing over the last 10 years. I can assure you, it is not about dining at restaurants recommended on Facebook or Tripadvisor. Yes, most of what I have done would in theory have been possible before the internet, but it would have required researchers, translators, and local contacts.

 

You also seem to assume that just because I have the assistance of a smartphone and the internet, that I do not walk down the unbeaten path, which is very wrong!

 

14 minutes ago, kharmabum said:

[…] one of the reasons people used to come to thailand was to unplug from the matrix, and observe their self(with a small 's') spontaniously combust.   the best thing that could happen to farang in thailand is to have an elephant step on their smartphone.

 

There are plenty of places in Thailand that still have no electricity and at best very sparse cell phone coverage, so you can still unplug — I have done that myself both in Thailand, Nepal, Myanmar, China, and even Japan have villages with no electricity and modern conveniences. Ironically though, I was only able to go to these places because of technology, and that is what I was hinting at in my comment.

[kharmabum]

35 minutes ago, lkn said:

 

You have no idea what I have been doing over the last 10 years. I can assure you, it is not about dining at restaurants recommended on Facebook or Tripadvisor. Yes, most of what I have done would in theory have been possible before the internet, but it would have required researchers, translators, and local contacts.

 

@IKN dude, read your previous posts..  you talk about using your smart phone for things like sightseeing, booking hotels, etc...   now you say you use your smart phone mostly for some academic project that eliminates the need for researchers, translators etc...?LOL  should I have guessed that based on what you wrote?

 

what are you researching?   buddhism?

does the new iphone have an enlightenment APP?

because if they do I might get one.LOL

Edited November 25, 2016 by kharmabum

[lkn]

22 minutes ago, kharmabum said:

@IKN dude, read your previous posts..  you talk about using your smart phone for things like sightseeing, booking hotels, etc...   now you say you use your smart phone mostly for some academic project that eliminates the need for researchers, translators etc...?LOL  should I have guessed that based on what you wrote?

 

This is part of what I wrote: “[…] technology allows you (as a tourist) to do so much more […] I think about what I have experienced in the last 10 years, and how little of that would have been possible, had it not been for the internet and my smartphone.”

 

Your simplification of using the smartphone and internet just for “sightseeing” seems to indicate that we operate on rather different levels.

 

40 minutes ago, kharmabum said:

what are you researching?   buddhism?

does the new iphone have an enlightenment APP?

because if they do I might get one.LOL

 

First, when I mentioned researchers, I was referring to my experiences over the last 10 years that include traveling in a dozen different countries.

 

Second, have you ever seen a travel program? Have you wondered how they know about all these great things to explore? How the host managed to stay overnight (as the only foreigner) in a village in the mountains? How they know that the region they visited is known for some heavenly tasting fruit that is only available for two weeks every year? How they found this artisan family that does the most beautiful woodwork? etc. That my friend is due to research.

 

 

 

[WinnieTheKhwai]

2 hours ago, kharmabum said:

 

unless you make your living with a computer(digital nomad), then everything you've done would have been possible without the internet or your smartphone.  and think of all the pathways you didn't walk down and the great little restauraunts you never ate at because they weren't fake liked on facebook or tripadvisor.  

 

Well..  remember what people did back then? They sheepishly followed the (objectively terrible) restaurants listed in the Lonely Planet guide.

 

Terrible places like Aroon Rai, Thanom, Daret, and Ban Rai and Dara 'steak house'  (ok for the money perhaps, but whatever that was it wasn't steak ).

 

There were actually so few places that anyone could pretty much list them all from memory:  JJ, Kafe, America Restaurant, Riverside, Irish Pub.. and the hotel restaurants at the old hotels like the Rincome, Orchid, etc.

 

Right now there are lots and lots of little hole in the wall places, down the sois everywhere, that you can actually find because people share them on forums like this as well as FB groups, etc.

 

In the early nineties there was absolutely nothing down the sois in the old town.  Actually nothing much going on inside the entire old town; a little in the area very close to Moon Muang / Thapae maybe.

Edited November 25, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[chiang mai]

Many good points about both options, on balance, 2002, less traffic.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Many good points about both options, on balance, 2002, less traffic.

 

As much as I'd like to complain about that, I bought two cars in 2001/2002 so I'm not sure I get to complain about it, while also 'being the traffic'.  :)    I still drive one of them.

Edited November 25, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

As much as I'd like to complain about that, I bought two cars in 2001/2002 so I'm not sure I get to complain about it, while also 'being the traffic'.  :)    I still drive one of them.

 

So you're responsible, I might have guessed!

[seedy]

Flaming post Removed. Your Opinion differs - state your case without insulting those posters who took the time to post more than a one line reply.

[Lordfoul]

In 2002 KSK was not the only mall. Airport Plaza not only existed but had been expanded and remodeled by that point.

 

Traffic may be worse now (in some spots), but traffic was bad then also. Red Trucks double parked on Huay Kaew all day long keeping traffic backed up. Nimman may have been undeveloped but it had bad traffic even then. Suthep road hadn't been replaced yet and when it was, traffic on the other two roads was brutal. Much of Canal road was dirt and gravel in 2002 also.

 

As WTK mentioned, there may be more Starbucks, but there are also far more options. In 2002 the options were mainly ancient coffee or Nescafe'. I imagine much of what people remember fondly from 15 years ago was only good due to lack of options.

 

Visa runs were easy, but is that still important to you after 14 years? I admit I once depended on them also, but after a while you find a better way.

 

"Old Farang" were exactly the same today as they were 14 years ago. lamenting how much better things were 14 years prior, complaining about "the Thais and" the issue of the day.

 

In 2002 condos were also "going up everywhere". It seemed like the whole city was under construction back then and that hasn't change at all during the last 14 years either.

 

Really, most things have improved. I was happy enough to be here then and I am happy enough to be here now.  I think the real difference is whether you can roll with the changes while appreciating the improvements.