Trump talks Taiwan on the telephone China lodges complaint

[Opl]

Are Trump's aides playing him on Taiwan?: Gabriel Schoenfeld: " Like Kremlinology, Trumpology cannot provide definitive explanations. But it does enable us to lay out intelligent alternative interpretations of what the hell is going on.
- It is entirely conceivable that Trump had not the faintest idea that talking to Taiwan’s president would touch on special sensitivities in Beijing.
-..some of Trump’s advisers — with an agenda of their own, and exploiting his ignorance — put him up to it, knowing or hoping it would cause some sort of explosion in U.S.-China relations.."

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/12/05/donald-trump-phone-call-kremlin-taiwan-column/94966376/

Edited December 5, 2016 by Opl

[Prbkk]

Trump got this one right. China's pathetic posturing has gone unchallenged for far too long and it's good to see Trump ignore the conventional 'wisdom' on this matter. 

Just so long as he doesn't escalate, but going this far, with the implied "up yours" to Beijing is just fine.

[dunroaming]

Of course China manipulate their currency for economic gain, they would be stupid if they didn't.  It is common practice with countries when their exports are struggling or they want a bigger share of the market..  Britain has de-valued the pound before now for similar reasons.

[GinBoy2]

25 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Of course China manipulate their currency for economic gain, they would be stupid if they didn't.  It is common practice with countries when their exports are struggling or they want a bigger share of the market..  Britain has de-valued the pound before now for similar reasons.

The Renminbi is a semi convertible currency. It floats, in a way somewhat similar to the pre Euro ERM, which allowed currencies to float within a band.

The other similarity the RMB has to Europe is the 'one size fits all' problem.

I think many on this esteemed forum see China as a monolith, it's far from that. Fly into Shanghai or Beijing and you see the trapping of a super modern 21st century superstate. travel west however, and you will be transported back 100 years.

A single monetary policy that can service vastly different economies is a tough act.....any of you Europeans see the similarities?????

Edited December 5, 2016 by GinBoy2

[Srikcir]

3 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

The Renminbi is a semi convertible currency.

Semi-convertible?

The Renminbi ( Yuan" is the name of a unit of the renminbi currency) joins the U.S. dollar, euro, yen, and British pound as part of IMF's Special Drawing Rights basket of currencies. This facilitates world trade with minimal delay and cost in currency exchanges. Such issuers of reserve currencies must meet high transparency standards. This includes for China steps to increase data disclosure and enhance their commitment to multilateral data initiatives; for instance, reporting the currency composition of reserves to the IMF. To remain in the SDR will deter China from abusive currency manipulation.

http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2016/09/29/AM16-NA093016IMF-Adds-Chinese-Renminbi-to-Special-Drawing-Rights-Basket

 

The Chinese are manipulating the value of the yuan up, not down. Thus returning it to the correct free market value isn’t going to have the desired effect of closing America’s trade deficit with China.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/13/trumpd-right-china-is-a-currency-manipulator-but-theyre-manipulating-the-yuan-up/#52b0d47627a6

[Morch]

13 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Sir, I think the problem is, if a country opens an embassy in Taiwan, then China will not allow that country to have an embassy in Beijing.

The Peoples' Republic of China, that's main-land China, they regard Taiwan as the same country as China. That's why, they won't accept an embassy in main-land China AND one in Taiwan as well. After all, you can't have two embassies in ONE country.

 

 

I'm not saying that it's the best course of action, but every now and then it's healthy to call bluffs. Doubt that a major rift with the US is high on the PRC's agenda at this time. There's usually a lot of talk about how the US needs to walk on egg shells when it comes to the PRC - I think it cuts both ways, just more capitalized by one party.

[deathmule]

tl;dr

 

Obama sells 1.8 billion dollars worth of guns to Taiwan, nobody says anything

 

Trump picks up the phone from the democratically elected president of Taiwan, everybody goes insane

 

American President should ask who he's picking up the phone from, like China ever asked if they're allowed to have trading deals with Iran/Russia and diplomatic ties with North Korea.

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by deathmule

[NeverSure]

On 12/5/2016 at 0:48 AM, Morch said:

 

 

The point is simply this apparently being not a well thought out move, but rather a more of an impulsive one. Always useful to consider Trump's initial reactions, before his minders and spokespersons get into damage control mode. None of the learned views or coherent reasoning currently offered was evident. I doubt that beyond partisan views, anyone actually sees this as a reassuring way of running a country or international relations.

 

Take on the PRC, just have a plan and let your team know what the plan is.

 

BS.

 

"Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved"  Washington Post

 

Do people simply live in a TVF bubble like echos in a barrel? Pay attention to the news once in a while.

 

The "experts" who formed US China policy for the past 50 years have done nothing but screw things up and empower China. Now it appears that people are so afraid of China that Trump can't make a phone call?

 

Trump did that phone call as a message to China which was essentially "If you don't like it, stick it in your ear. You're finished getting your way all of the time."

 

Trump is going to be very good for America and the American People.

 

Cheers.

[NeverSure]

On 12/5/2016 at 0:41 AM, Srikcir said:

US Treasury bonds are debt instruments. Very basic economics.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/treasurybond.asp

The bondholder cannot call the bond debt before its term expires unless the US defaults on bond payments - which it has never done. Such would be unconstitutional.

 

 

 China holds T-Bills which expire in a year or less. You looked up US bonds instead of US Treasury bills.

 

Once again, China has its own debt and has to borrow money to buy those T-Bills. It's far from swimming in money.

 

The US can cut any country off from $USD by refusing it banking services. It's happened many times. Read this to see how.

 

Cheers.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, NeverSure said:

 

BS.

 

"Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved"  Washington Post

 

Do people simply live in a TVF bubble like echos in a barrel? Pay attention to the news once in a while.

 

The "experts" who formed US China policy for the past 50 years have done nothing but screw things up and empower China. Now it appears that people are so afraid of China that Trump can't make a phone call?

 

Trump did that phone call as a message to China which was essentially "If you don't like it, stick it in your ear. You're finished getting your way all of the time."

 

Trump is going to be very good for America and the American People.

 

Cheers.

 

I have read the reports regarding the conversation being planned after posting the above. Also, several of my posts touched on a related issue - that if this wasn't done on impulse, than it simply reflects irresponsibility on the part of Trump and his staff. Trump is not the in office yet, and it is not his place to commit the current administration to policy changes without notice. Considering one of the often heard complaints made by Trump's supporters is about people not rallying behind the president-elect, Trump's own conduct does not seem to convey much by way of the same.

 

You can yap all you like about "afraid of China", others posters made the same fact free allusions to my posts - doesn't make it my position, though.

 

 

[Si Thea01]

I thought it was the Taiwan President who made the call.  Why are some going off over him being contacted, if that's what happened, after all doesn't the current administration sell billions in arms to them?  I don't hear anyone going off the deep end about this. Or is it,  what is good for the goose, isn't good for the gander. China commented but no where near what some others have and if anyone has the right it would be them not the whiners who can't stop with their undermining escapades. 

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, Si Thea01 said:

I thought it was the Taiwan President who made the call.  Why are some going off over him being contacted, if that's what happened, after all doesn't the current administration sell billions in arms to them?  I don't hear anyone going off the deep end about this. Or is it,  what is good for the goose, isn't good for the gander. China commented but no where near what some others have and if anyone has the right it would be them not the whiners who can't stop with their undermining escapades. 

 

Earlier you clicked a "like" to a post which asserts that the whole episode was planned beforehand....

[Morch]

12 hours ago, NeverSure said:

 

BS.

 

"Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved"  Washington Post

 

Do people simply live in a TVF bubble like echos in a barrel? Pay attention to the news once in a while.

 

The "experts" who formed US China policy for the past 50 years have done nothing but screw things up and empower China. Now it appears that people are so afraid of China that Trump can't make a phone call?

 

Trump did that phone call as a message to China which was essentially "If you don't like it, stick it in your ear. You're finished getting your way all of the time."

 

Trump is going to be very good for America and the American People.

 

Cheers.

 

Further (Mrs. broke my concentration with food)...,

 

If this was indeed a long planned move, then what was the point of Trump presenting it as otherwise? Or stressing that the phone call originated from Taiwan with himself merely "receiving"? Why the charade?

 

 

[Briggsy]

I repeat my earlier point.

 

Trump has business interests in Taiwan. Trump's interests have become America's interests.

 

With Trump, don't over analyse. If asking why he does anything, the answer is always for money or for his ego.

[deathmule]

He has business interests in China too.

 

Just leaving this here

[Srikcir]

58 minutes ago, Si Thea01 said:

doesn't the current administration sell billions in arms to them

Because Obama formally notified Congress of the proposed sale a year after Congress passed legislation  APPROVING the sale.

The sale was no different from previous sales notifications by the administration totaling more than $12 billion under the Taiwan Relations Act. The Act provides for non-diplomatic relations between the people of the United States and the people on Taiwan.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taiwan-arms-idUSKBN0TZ2C520151217

 

As President Trump would be violating US law by approaching Taiwan as an independent sovereign nation. But he's not the President yet, just a private citizen.

[Si Thea01]

28 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Further (Mrs. broke my concentration with food)...,

 

If this was indeed a long planned move, then what was the point of Trump presenting it as otherwise? Or stressing that the phone call originated from Taiwan with himself merely "receiving"? Why the charade?

 

 

 

You need to eat, all the energy needed for posting and responding.

 

"The "experts" who formed US China policy for the past 50 years have done nothing but screw things up and empower China. Now it appears that people are so afraid of China that Trump can't make a phone call?

 

Trump did that phone call as a message to China which was essentially "If you don't like it, stick it in your ear. You're finished getting your way all of the time."

 

Trump is going to be very good for America and the American People.

 

Cheers"

 

This is why I clicked like, the main body of the post, not the heading, even though the poster indicated a number of times that Trump made the call.  I don't have to agree with everything within to like something. 

 

Whatever the Washington Post prints I take with a grain of salt but as the transition team and later CNN indicated it was received, I accepted that this was what occurred.  You then ask three questions, of which the only person who can answer would be Mr Trump.  You should direct them to him, not me or anyone else on here.

[Si Thea01]

22 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Because Obama formally notified Congress of the proposed sale a year after Congress passed legislation  APPROVING the sale.

The sale was no different from previous sales notifications by the administration totaling more than $12 billion under the Taiwan Relations Act. The Act provides for non-diplomatic relations between the people of the United States and the people on Taiwan.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taiwan-arms-idUSKBN0TZ2C520151217

 

As President Trump would be violating US law by approaching Taiwan as an independent sovereign nation. But he's not the President yet, just a private citizen.

 

I am aware that it was approved by congress otherwise it could not occur.  My point was that Trump received a phone call, yet given that it was allegedly a congratulatory call, all hell broke loose, but despite the arms being sold, have not heard the same people decrying that action or anything coming out of China criticising it.  If I have missed that then I sure someone will tell me.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Si Thea01 said:

 

You need to eat, all the energy needed for posting and responding.

 

"The "experts" who formed US China policy for the past 50 years have done nothing but screw things up and empower China. Now it appears that people are so afraid of China that Trump can't make a phone call?

 

Trump did that phone call as a message to China which was essentially "If you don't like it, stick it in your ear. You're finished getting your way all of the time."

 

Trump is going to be very good for America and the American People.

 

Cheers"

 

This is why I clicked like, the main body of the post, not the heading, even though the poster indicated a number of times that Trump made the call.  I don't have to agree with everything within to like something. 

 

Whatever the Washington Post prints I take with a grain of salt but as the transition team and later CNN indicated it was received, I accepted that this was what occurred.  You then ask three questions, of which the only person who can answer would be Mr Trump.  You should direct them to him, not me or anyone else on here.

 

Alright, I usually tend to be more discriminate with my "like" clicks, could cloud the way I read it.

 

If you accept that the call was planned long ahead, then the whole "she called him" angle doesn't hold water - and it does raise other questions. Claiming these ought to be addressed to Trump is an expected cop out.

 

[Si Thea01]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Alright, I usually tend to be more discriminate with my "like" clicks, could cloud the way I read it.

 

If you accept that the call was planned long ahead, then the whole "she called him" angle doesn't hold water - and it does raise other questions. Claiming these ought to be addressed to Trump is an expected cop out.

 

 

Sorry but how can one accept that something, which happened in the past,  was planned long ahead?  To know, one would have to be privy to those details, which I can assure you, I was not.  And It is not a cop out, you have asked hypothetical questions of which the answers have to be based on assumptions, not facts, so one arrives at a generalised answer, which I won't

 

As I am unable to get into his head,  I am sorry but cannot respond to hypotheticals?  The only ones who think they're capable of that are those wonderful MSM reporters and the anchor know it all's, as well as those they drag along, in their attempts to sensationalise everything that they want to twist around to make out the President-elect has done something that he hasn't. 

[deathmule]

Kind of off topic but funny how nobody has posted/created a topic yet about the deal Trump made with Soft Bank which will eventually create 50.000 jobs, bringing 50B$ of investment.

 

I guess it's a bad deal again like the Carrier deal haha

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, deathmule said:

Kind of off topic but funny how nobody has posted/created a topic yet about the deal Trump made with Soft Bank which will eventually create 50.000 jobs, bringing 50B$ of investment.

 

I guess it's a bad deal again like the Carrier deal haha

 

Features on a parallel topic. The connection to Saudi Arabia as well.

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, Si Thea01 said:

 

Sorry but how can one accept that something, which happened in the past,  was planned long ahead?  To know, one would have to be privy to those details, which I can assure you, I was not.  And It is not a cop out, you have asked hypothetical questions of which the answers have to be based on assumptions, not facts, so one arrives at a generalised answer, which I won't

 

As I am unable to get into his head,  I am sorry but cannot respond to hypotheticals?  The only ones who think they're capable of that are those wonderful MSM reporters and the anchor know it all's, as well as those they drag along, in their attempts to sensationalise everything that they want to twist around to make out the President-elect has done something that he hasn't. 

 

Yeah, should have edited that, but doubt you really didn't figure it out.

 

There original account was made Trump's role passive - he just received the call. That raises one set of questions.

The later account was that the conversations was prearranged well in advance. That raises another set of questions.

 

I seriously doubt that all your posts are strictly grounded in the factual, and never include opinions, assumptions and the like. Most of the posters do not shy away from airing their views and takes, which are not necessarily based on being privy to high level deliberations.

 

The president-elect took an action with foreign relations implications. Regardless of his motivations, I doubt his current responsibilities include making such decisions.

[Si Thea01]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah, should have edited that, but doubt you really didn't figure it out.

 

There original account was made Trump's role passive - he just received the call. That raises one set of questions.

The later account was that the conversations was prearranged well in advance. That raises another set of questions.

 

I seriously doubt that all your posts are strictly grounded in the factual, and never include opinions, assumptions and the like. Most of the posters do not shy away from airing their views and takes, which are not necessarily based on being privy to high level deliberations.

 

The president-elect took an action with foreign relations implications. Regardless of his motivations, I doubt his current responsibilities include making such decisions.

 

 

Of course, no matter what there will always be questions, some will be answered, others ignored but given what is being said one has to be wary given that it is coming from politicians and their advisers.  We all know how they react, it all boils down to what is needed at the time.  Doesn't matter which side either.

 

You are right, I do have opinions and I do assume sometimes but my assumptions come from a stronger base and from what has been stated rather than what I think someone one might have done or said.  I often air my views but I won't when it comes to hypotheticals.  If others want to, then that is their right but on many occasions they are lambasted, as I have been, for proffering a response that others define as being foolish, stupid or even childish. 

[Trouble]

On 12/5/2016 at 1:05 AM, Morch said:

 

For the most part, that's a fair enough assessment.

Were we differ is with the "thinking outside the box" bit. Doesn't seem like there was a whole lot of that to begin with, more about "shake things up a bit". I think both are essential for anything productive to come out of it.

 

Don't disagree with you but Trump seems to have been elected to do just what he is doing, "shake things up a bit".  I have the feeling that Trump, like it or not, likes to throw out things and sees what sticks. That is not diplomatic at all, but it is his way.  But the fear propagated in the media about WWIII is overblown.  The PRC has been building the islands in the South China Sea and I don't see that diplomacy is doing anything. We just watch them do it. It is all about the PRC stealing resources from others.  At the most Trump might ruffle the PRC's feathers, at the least he might start a realistic dialogue about the ROC and PRC leading to a more realistic  assessment of the current situation in the 21th Century. He is surely unorthodox but then let's see what happens.  I am not worried that things can be any worse in the world than they are now.  

[lannarebirth]

9 hours ago, Briggsy said:

I repeat my earlier point.

 

Trump has business interests in Taiwan. Trump's interests have become America's interests.

 

With Trump, don't over analyse. If asking why he does anything, the answer is always for money or for his ego.

 

Personally, I don't see anything at all wrong with exchanging congratulatory messages with any democratically elected leader in the world. But I think this was the reason for the call, which I'm sorry to see someone had to pay for.

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/bob-dole-donald-trump-taiwan-232266

[Morch]

19 hours ago, Trouble said:

Don't disagree with you but Trump seems to have been elected to do just what he is doing, "shake things up a bit".  I have the feeling that Trump, like it or not, likes to throw out things and sees what sticks. That is not diplomatic at all, but it is his way.  But the fear propagated in the media about WWIII is overblown.  The PRC has been building the islands in the South China Sea and I don't see that diplomacy is doing anything. We just watch them do it. It is all about the PRC stealing resources from others.  At the most Trump might ruffle the PRC's feathers, at the least he might start a realistic dialogue about the ROC and PRC leading to a more realistic  assessment of the current situation in the 21th Century. He is surely unorthodox but then let's see what happens.  I am not worried that things can be any worse in the world than they are now.  

 

I am not worried that things can be any worse in the world than they are now.  

 

Things can always get worse, even without resorting to WWIII scaremongering. If things now are rock bottom, we're all doing pretty good.

[lannarebirth]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I am not worried that things can be any worse in the world than they are now.  

 

Things can always get worse, even without resorting to WWIII scaremongering. If things now are rock bottom, we're all doing pretty good.

 

"Rock Bottom" ; those are the very words I used when I sat my family down and discussed our move back to the states. 4.5 years ago. I told them that IMO America was 5-10 years away from hitting "rock bottom". Politically, militarily, economically, societally, culturally; everything was headed south. Being a strong believer in the cyclicality of most things and the dynamism of the US versus most other countries, I told them I thought there would be a slow steady rebirth from that coming trough and if a young person were to become engaged with the best of what America has to offer and eschew the worst things that IMO they could create good futures for themselves.

 

Not to sound too Krugmanesque but I think I nailed it. I don't know if Trump marks the bottom, the acceleration towards the bottom, or the climb up the other side. I do believe the process to mark a bottom is underway though and that better times await for young people to build a better future, having watched their parents and grandparents screw things up royally.

 

 

[mania]

23 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

"I do believe the process to mark a bottom is underway though and that better times await for young people to build a better future, having watched their parents and grandparents screw things up royally.

 

 

 

That was a great post but this last line is quite sad because it is quite true

 

The least our generations could have done was leave it better than we found it...

For all out talk/rhetoric we failed miserably

Edited December 8, 2016 by mania

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, mania said:

 

That was a great post but this last line is quite sad because it is quite true

 

The least our generations could have done was leave it better than we found it...

For all out talk/rhetoric we failed miserably

 

It's funny, I've watched Democrats becoming Republicans these past few decades. They invest in their IRA's and 401 K's and wonder why America is so screwed up. They don't think it's weird at all that the World's largest corporation only makes electronic gadgets, or that they do it in China, or that their global headquarters are some tiny nondescript building in Ireland.  They are all corporatists now. They don't give a <deleted> about the US anymore as long as their stocks go up and that transgenders can pee where they like. It is all so perverse. America needs what the Democrat party used to be, even if you don't agree with them. Someone has to stand by the people.