University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[Shawn0000]

2 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Are we supposed to nit pick and comment or just read it for understanding?

 

I took it as being an example of the pay scale sets the standard of teachers.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

17 minutes ago, Scott said:

EnlightenedAthiest, that's interesting, but the first obstacle is to get the local population to use the language in a reasonable and understandable fashion.  

 

It never mattered to me if the Teacher was British, Australian, or North American.   First it was to ground them in the language and then the differences could be explained and the subtleties of the language can be dealt with.  

 

Thanks. Well, using it helps to a degree, sure. I don't think that is the first obstacle though. English spelling IZ.

 

Oh! Yes! I forgot that part! To boot, now, students are confronted with all of the English dialects where in one "bad" is a bed (NZE), to name just one of the hundreds of thousands of possible issues. 

[timewilltell]

8 hours ago, Johnniey said:

What is it a technical/vocational college?

I worked in a Thai university for over 10 years and all the teachers in the English department spoke impeccable English as many of them had PhD's from English universities. They had all studied to a Master's degree level abroad. 

 

The only mistake I often heard was that they used "ever" as in "I ever been to Spain".

 

Who cares if the Thai word "koy" is misspelled? I know many so called Thai speakers who think this word means "have" or "used to", as in "I have been there", "I have eaten it before". 

There was even a poster here years ago called, "ajarn", who had been learning Thai for many years didn't know this Thai word meaning "not very".

 

But go ahead all you people living in Thailand, who can't communicate in Thai, and criticize the Thais ability at speaking English as after all they should, shouldn't they?

Well if they are supposedly teaching English then I submit they should also be able to speak it. and write and read it too! but your ideas may be different I suppose and obviously in keeping with the standards here.

[Artisi]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I took it as being an example of the pay scale sets the standard of teachers.

You may well be correct, however - many universities pay poorly for western teachers and even less (usually a lot less) for Thai teachers, a lot of it comes down to what the uni. can afford to pay.

[Slip]

8 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Are we supposed to nit pick and comment or just read it for understanding?

 Use your scan reading skills- 35k for a PHD.

[Shawn0000]

1 minute ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Thanks. Well, using it helps to a degree, sure. I don't think that is the first obstacle though. English spelling IZ.

 

Using it is the only possibly way it could help someone, spelling is the least important skill to learn.

[Artisi]

Just now, Slip said:

 Use your scan reading skills- 35k for a PHD.

 

Noted on first read thru' - however an insight into your theory wouldn't have gone amiss.

Further, see my previous post 1 or 2 back.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

12 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Using it is the only possibly way it could help someone, spelling is the least important skill to learn.

 

Not if you are going to try to learn how to pronounce words. Pretty hard when the spelling does nto match the pronunciation. Sorry. English spelling IZ the problem, IZ UBISMUL! Now, I can read it and can say it. Magic! It is the alphabetic system not the betabetic system!

[Shawn0000]

Just now, Slip said:

 Use your scan reading skills- 35k for a PHD.

 

Is one of the biggest problems, and those claiming that schools and uni's cannot afford more should check out the salaries of senior Thai staff, they can afford to pay a low qualified lazy teacher who rarely turns up but happens to be have been there forever 60K, but a foreigner is expected to be stuck on 30K for their entire career regardless of qualification, experience or performance, some would call it structural racism.

[lostinisaan]

5 hours ago, Johnniey said:

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

 Doesn't he say that it will get colder soon?

[Shawn0000]

Just now, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Not if you are going to try to learn how to pronounce words. Pretty hard when the spelling does nto match the pronunciation. Sorry. English spelling IZ the problem.

 

That theory would work if English was a phonetic language, as it is not it is actually way off.  Spelling is obviously not the problem as Thai students ability to spell far exceeds their ability to pronounce and also understand spoken English, the problem lying in the unbalanced teaching of the four skills.

[Slip]

Just now, Artisi said:

 

Noted on first read thru' - however an insight into your theory wouldn't have gone amiss.

Further, see my previous post 1 or 2 back.

My apologies- I was counting on people to use a couple of skills- the first as mentioned 'scan reading' and the second 'making inferences'.

With reference to your post of 1 or 2 back- a completely unqualified brick-layer/ refuse collector/ dole bludger can come here and make 30k a year.  To pay someone who has a doctorate at the same rate may indeed explain the poor command of English in the country.

I take your point about explaining my points more clearly.  As much as I thought they stood without the need for extra development that is not always the case.  Thank you.

[cocoonclub]

4 hours ago, Johnniey said:

I know people who live in Khon Kaen and Kalasin that pronouce them totally incorrect, even after living there for many years. It should, of course be written, Khon Gaen and Galasin.

By claiming it should "of course" be written like this and that, you're actually making the same mistake here that you're trying to point out: That transliterations without knowing the transliteration system can be pretty worthless and lead to incorrect pronounciation.

 

The only way how to definitely write these cities correctly is using ขอนแก่น and กาฬสินธุ์. Once you start using another alphabet, whether the Roman one, Kanji, or even funny icons like ♣️ and ♠️, you're using a transliteration, which can never be considered correct or incorrect in an absolute way, as it is a model/representation of an original/fact and therefore needs interpretation. Same like there exist plenty of different maps (aka models/representations) of the very same world (aka original) used for different purposes, you cannot, for example, declare a geological map of the world "incorrect" just because you might interpret it incorrectly as you only understand Google Maps. 

 

To stick to your example, transliterating those cities with "Kalasin" and "Khon Kaen" can be perfectly fine, should the transliteration system applied be commonly understood as using a "k" letter for a "ก" sound. On the other hand, using a "g" letter for transliterating a "ก" sound might equally lead to incorrect pronounciation when someone doesn't know how to read your transliteration system correctly, like for example an English speaking person applying a kind of "จ" for the "g" letter sound as in "Germany". And, believe me, there inevitably would be dozens of Farangs walking around saying they're living in ขอนแจน and จาฬสินธุ์ simply because they would not know how to use the transliteration system applied. 

 

I agree though that Thailand has a problem with transliteration because: 1.) there is no official transliteration system but dozens competing ones; and 2.) the most common ones (seen on street signs for example) use the same representation for a different original. 

 

Bottom line: A transliteration can never be considered correct or incorrect, it may be used correctly or incorrectly though. And: It's worth learning the Thai alphabet. 

[AgMech Cowboy]

9 hours ago, Charlie1 said:

I noticed that many Thais try to speak a not understandable "American English". They should be taught only by UK native speakers - the teachers, I mean.

555555555555

Can you imagine a Geordie and Glaswegian teaching English in the Khon Kaen and Mukdahan schools?

 

I speak with a drawl and spell color different, but at least it's English. And I only use ya'll when I'm in the South. :) (That's the South in the USA, if your not sure).

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Not if you are going to try to learn how to pronounce words. Pretty hard when the spelling does nto match the pronunciation. Sorry. English spelling IZ the problem.

 

Sorry, I completely misunderstood your post, I hadn't yet read what you had posted above.  Yes, English spelling makes it damn confusing.  Not sure we are in a position to change that though, perhaps the postmodern simplified language of the street youth will eventually become an accepted new English, I shouldn't hold you breath though.

[Hiyaall]

Hahahah. As someone who has some command of grammar, I'm laughing at an article criticizing people for making english errors while making many grammar errors. I am not fan of grammar nazisim, but I still think it's funny. 

 

Maybe be if I ever retire to Thailand I can make extra cash editing this stuff. 

[oldsailor35]

Why does the government not allow or invite retired English people to work, casual voluntarily,  in schools assisting pupils with conversational English.  There are plenty of people with nothing to do who would be only too willing to help.

[Slip]

1 minute ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

555555555555

Can you imagine a Geordie and Glaswegian teaching English in the Khon Kaen and Mukdahan schools?

 

I speak with a drawl and spell color different, but at least it's English. And I only use ya'll when I'm in the South. :) (That's the South in the USA, if your not sure).

Well not only do you speak in a weird manner, but you can't spell, you start sentences with conjunctions, you have mixed up the possessive adjective for 'belonging to you' and the contraction of 'you are', and you use adjectives where you should use adverbs.

(apologies I'll get my coat) :D

[EnlightenedAtheist]

10 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

That theory would work if English was a phonetic language, as it is not it is actually way off.  Spelling is obviously not the problem as Thai students ability to spell far exceeds their ability to pronounce and also understand spoken English, the problem lying in the unbalanced teaching of the four skills.

 

|English is a hybrid language. It is currently half logographic with its irregular set of vowel-phonemes and half phonetic with its pretty regular consonants. But, the problem is not a phonetic one as much as one about irregular use of the rules. If one spells well (which helps in reading) one usually will struggle with pronunciation and vice versa. 

 

It is not about teaching or learning so much as it is about the material that is used to do so. No bricklayer can lay bricks with a bad set of mud and uneven bricks well and/or quickly. It just common sense. 

 

You can huff and puff all you want,... the straw house (or arguments) do not hold up. And so does the brick house!

[Rhys]

lit up another dudes...

 

[Shawn0000]

3 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

555555555555

Can you imagine a Geordie and Glaswegian teaching English in the Khon Kaen and Mukdahan schools?

 

I speak with a drawl and spell color different, but at least it's English. And I only use ya'll when I'm in the South. :) (That's the South in the USA, if your not sure).

 

For listening skills, regional accents are valuable, try any modern listening course by Cambridge, there is always a variety of accents and also some foreign speakers using purposely very poor grammar, just like you hear on the street.  It depends what your students want English for, for instance, if it is for further study in Thailand then they need only learn clear and correct English, but if they want to be able to work with tourists then they will need to be able to understand the utter nonsense that real people speak.

[oldsailor35]

1 minute ago, Slip said:

Well not only do you speak in a weird manner, but you can't spell, you start sentences with conjunctions, you have mixed up the possessive adjective for 'belonging to you' and the contraction of 'you are', and you use adjectives where you should use adverbs.

(apologies I'll get my coat) :D

I did say "conversational English" not grammar. I have found from living in different countries that living native was the easiest way to learn to converse, forget about grammar, just make it understandable . I can carry on a conversation in several languages, understanding nothing about the grammar. So thanks M

r highly trained smartie

 

[KOZMO]

Even if you have a Masters Degree spend your break at Nana  or Soi cowboy, then you can really speak English  !!!!  

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

|English is a hybrid language. It is currently half logographic with its irregular set of vowel-phonemes and half phonetic with its pretty regular consonants. But, the problem is not a phonetic one as much as one about irregular use of the rules. If one spells well (which helps in reading) one usually will struggle with pronunciation and vice versa. 

 

It is not about teaching or learning so much as it is about the material that is used to do so. No bricklayer can lay bricks with a bad set of mud and uneven bricks well and/or quickly. It just common sense. 

 

You can huff and puff all you want,... the straw house (or arguments) do not hold up. And so does the brick house!

 

"If one spells well (which helps in reading) one usually will struggle with pronunciation and vice versa."

You've managed to demonstrate it wasn't a straw-man argument for balance in the four skills will at least minimize the issue.

[ffaarraanngg]

9 hours ago, Johnniey said:

No, I'm a Scot.

 

There are a few that call me Scotch but I don't want to insult their lack of worldly awareness any more.

Us English have quite a few names for you also.

[ffaarraanngg]

22 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

555555555555

Can you imagine a Geordie and Glaswegian teaching English in the Khon Kaen and Mukdahan schools?

 

I speak with a drawl and spell color different, but at least it's English. And I only use ya'll when I'm in the South. :) (That's the South in the USA, if your not sure).

You're

[rabas]

3 minutes ago, ffaarraanngg said:

25 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

555555555555

Can you imagine a Geordie and Glaswegian teaching English in the Khon Kaen and Mukdahan schools?

 

I speak with a drawl and spell color different, but at least it's English. And I only use ya'll when I'm in the South. :) (That's the South in the USA, if your not sure).

You're

ya'll're not sure.

[AgMech Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, ffaarraanngg said:

You're

 

Thanks, mate. I didn't proof read very well on that one, did I?

[Slip]

OldSailor- I have no idea what is going on with the quote system here.  My tongue in cheek post was aimed at AgMech not you, but I am not sure what is presenting on the page. I agree with you from the point of view of conversational English.

I also try to avoid teaching grammar, much preferring literature in my classes.  Even where that is not possible, then functional English is preferable to grammatical English.  The days of not being allowed to finish a sentence with a preposition or start one with a conjunction are long gone (much to my mother's chagrin).

 

Shawn's comments about accents are spot on- as a fluent native speaker it is rare for me to find another native speaker that I can't understand, be they from Glasgow, India, Indiana, Thailand or a hundred other places.  Those whom we can't understand are non-fluent and must continue to practise.

[ffaarraanngg]

3 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

 

Thanks, mate. I didn't proof read very well on that one, did I?

Hate to do it but for criticising the Geordie accent you needed to be taken down.

 

You do get well spoken Geordies .... such as Sting!