Automatic UK citizenship for grandchildren?

[simon43]

Can someone more knowledgeable than me please confirm if my understanding (below) is correct?

 

I have a son (13 years old) living in Thailand whose mother is Thai. He was conceived and born while we were legally married.  I am named on the birth certificate as his father and there is no question from his appearance that he is my 'blood' son. He is a Thai citizen (because his mother is Thai).

 

This boy is automatically entitled to a UK passport because he meets the requirements stipulated by the various UK laws.

 

To date, I have never actually applied for a UK passport for him, because I am aware that he is automatically entitled to it - there is no deadline for him to request that passport. His Thai mother is also fine to sign any documents needed for him to obtain that passport.

 

It is a little unlikely that he will actually want to live, study or work in the UK, because he lives with his Thai family and his English language skills are not advanced - he might have some problems settling into a UK, English environment.

 

But here is my question.  In the future, if he marries a woman of any nationality, and has children, will those children (my grandchildren) be entitled to British nationality?  It could be that when I'm dead and gone, my grandchildren could hugely benefit from being able to live, study and work in the UK (or mainland Europe if allowed).

 

Are the children of a 'luk krung' automatically entitled to UK nationality and passport if their father (my son) is automatically entitled to that?  Or is it the case (I assume so), that my son must apply for and be granted UK nationality that he is automatically entitled to, before he has his own children?

 

Knowing the answer to this will encourage his mother to sign whatever is required to allow him to apply in Bangkok for that passport.  But if my grandkids would not be entitled to a UK passport, then the matter is perhaps not so urgent.

 

Your advice is appreciated

[gerryBScot]

I have no doubt you'll get sound advice here. My understanding on the basis of my kids, aged 7 and 4, born to me, a Brit, and a Filipino mother, though resident in Thailand,  is as follows:

 

they have a legal right to British citizenship up to the age of 18 but this must be claimed by, for instance, applying for a British passport. That legal entitlement ceases aged 18 but they can still apply after that and get it, except it is no longer a right.

 

they can only transmit British citizenship if they are living in the UK at the time any child is born; it is therefore not automatic; if they live elsewhere, such as in Thailand, their children will not be granted British citizenship.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by gerryBScot
omission of 'in Thailand' !

[7by7]

I am assuming that you are British otherwise than by descent; that is British in your own right because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of your parents is British..

 

Your son is British by descent, i.e. because he was born outside the UK or a qualifying territory he inherited his British citizenship from you. He does not need to 'claim' British citizenship; he is British and always will be unless he renounces it. He can apply for a British passport any time he likes; adult or child.

 

Obviously, though, it will be better to do so ASAP so that you can more easily gather all the paperwork together, such as your long form birth certificate, required for his first passport application. Should he not do so until after you are, as you put it, dead and gone then he may have difficulty in obtaining these documents.

 

British citizenship can only descend one generation.

 

Therefore his children will only be British if

1. they are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and their mother is British otherwise than by descent, or
2. they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

N.B. The qualifying territories are all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (in Cyprus).

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, gerryBScot said:

 

 

they can only transmit British citizenship if they are living in the UK at the time any child is born; it is therefore not automatic; if they live elsewhere, such as in Thailand, their children will not be granted British citizenship.

 

 

 

Sort of.

 

If he marries another British citizen born in UK but living elsewhere then the child can get UK nationality.

 

If he marries someone with dual nationality of which one is UK but born outside UK and the child is born outside UK then it is discretionary.

 

If he marries another nationality and the child is born outside UK then discretionary.

 

If he marries another nationality and the child is born inside UK then there is an automatic entitlement.

[stbkk]

One thing I would suggest you do (if you haven't done it already) is get his birth registered at the British embassy, and get him a UK birth certificate. It will make anything he may have to do later in life related to the UK (e.g. apply for his passport) easier, if it turns out he has to do it himself.

[sometimewoodworker]

15 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

Sort of.

 

If he marries another British citizen born in UK but living elsewhere then the child can get UK nationality.

 

If he marries someone with dual nationality of which one is UK but born outside UK and the child is born outside UK then it is discretionary.

 

If he marries another nationality and the child is born outside UK then discretionary.

 

If he marries another nationality and the child is born inside UK then there is an automatic entitlement.

 

Not really correct 

"If he marries another British citizen born in UK but living elsewhere then the child can get UK nationality."

if his wife is a full British citizen (not British by descent) the child born outside the U.K. Is British by descent. (not can get British nationality)

 

Dual nationality of the parents makes no difference to the children's nationality, as far as British citizenship is concerned.

 

Again no

"If he marries another nationality and the child is born outside UK then discretionary."

 

If neither parent has full British nationality then the child born out side the UK has no entitlement. It is not discretionary.

 

I don't know The situation of children born in the U. K. Apart from the fact that a child with one full British parent born in the U.K. Is a full British citizen.

 

The one thing that you can be sure of is that the rules will change.

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/322367/GUIDE_NS_-_June_2014-update.pdf

 

gives an overview of the situation.

 

also only full British citizens have the right to live and work in the U.K. So going to the U.K. is likely to require a visa unless you are 1.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by sometimewoodworker
More information

[Simon265]

1 hour ago, stbkk said:

One thing I would suggest you do (if you haven't done it already) is get his birth registered at the British embassy, and get him a UK birth certificate. It will make anything he may have to do later in life related to the UK (e.g. apply for his passport) easier, if it turns out he has to do it himself.

The registration does not make anything easier later in life, the passport application  requires the long birth certificate of the British parent, and the registration does not provide a British birth certificate, for that the child has to be born in Britain. A translation of the local birth certificate will suffice to do any job that a registration certificate will do. 

[Autonuaq]

You can get the nationality of your parents.

Grand child is no child of you so the answer will be NO, not possible.

Dual citizinship is alos different and in mostcase the child has to choose which nationality it wants to keep.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Autonuaq

[ResandePohm]

Simon43 The answer to your query is dependent on several factors:

1.  Were you born in the UK of British parents or were you born abroad.

2.  When was your son born (before after 1984)

 

If you were born in the UK of British parents then you have what I call 1st class British citizenship and your children if born outside the UK can get British citizenship but only what I call 2nd class citizenship.

If their children are also born outside the UK then they can get British citizenship but there the hereditary entitlement to British citizenship ends. Their children can only be British if born in the UK or inherit through the mother.

 

The rules were changed in 1984 as a result of the Falklands war where it was found that many of the Argentine officers were also British citizens inherited many generations and they had no connection to Britain what so ever. So the number of generations that citizenship can be passed down was limited to two.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Not really correct 

"If he marries another British citizen born in UK but living elsewhere then the child can get UK nationality."

if his wife is a full British citizen (not British by descent) the child born outside the U.K. Is British by descent. (not can get British nationality)

 

That's what I said, just semantics

 

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Dual nationality of the parents makes no difference to the children's nationality, as far as British citizenship is concerned.

 

The child's nationality is assumed to be that of the father, if the father is a dual national then what nationality will the child have??

In this case the father (to be) is Thai / Brit so they would consider the connection of the father to each of those 2 countries. If he lived full time in UK then it is more likely the child would be considered UK, if the father had never set foot in UK then it would be more difficult to be accepted.

 

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Again no

"If he marries another nationality and the child is born outside UK then discretionary."

 

If neither parent has full British nationality then the child born out side the UK has no entitlement. It is not discretionary.

 

In this case the parent (to be) has British nationality by descent, so his child will have a discretionary entitlement unless the child is born in UK or the mother was born a UK national..

 

Bottom line for Simon is to advise your son to have kids in UK to a UK mother!

 

[simon43]

Thanks to all the good advice.

 

Bottom line for Simon is to advise your son to have kids in UK to a UK mother!

 

That about sums it up...

 

 

[7by7]

With respect to other posters, the OP asks if the grandchildren will be entitled to British nationality.

 

The answer is no, unless, as I said,

21 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

1. they are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and their mother is British otherwise than by descent, or
2. they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

 

They may be able to apply to be registered as British under section 3.2 or 3.5 of the British nationality Act 1981, but would have to do so before they were 18.

 

To qualify under section 3.2 the child does not need to be living in the UK; but the British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child’s birth.

 

During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days.

 

To qualify under section 3.5 the child and their mother and father should have lived in the UK (or British overseas territory if born after 21 May 2002) for a three year period ending with the date the application is received. And the child and their parents should be physically present in the UK or a British overseas territory at the start of that period.
 
The child and their parents should not have been absent from the UK (or the British overseas territories if appropriate) for more than 270 days during the 3 year residential period. There is no discretion to disregard absences greater than 270.

 

There is an important difference between the two types of registration.

 

If registered under section 3.2 the child will be British by descent and so unable to pass their British citizenship onto their children except in the circumstances above.

 

If registered under section 3.5 then the child will be British otherwise than by descent and so able to pass their British citizenship onto their children regardless of where those children are born and the nationality of the other parent.

 

See Guide MN1 - Registration as a British citizen– A guide about the registration of children under 18 for the full details.

 

Once they have reached 18 they will be unable to register as a child and instead have to apply for naturalisation and meet all the requirements for that.

 

3 hours ago, Autonuaq said:

Dual citizinship is alos different and in mostcase the child has to choose which nationality it wants to keep.

 

Not as far as both the UK and Thailand are concerned; both countries allow dual nationality, whether the second was obtained by birth or registration or naturalisation.

 

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The child's nationality is assumed to be that of the father, if the father is a dual national then what nationality will the child have??

 

British citizenship can descend from either parent; not just the father. Indeed, prior to 2006 children born aboard could only inherit their father's British nationality if he was married to their mother, but inherited their mother's British nationality regardless of her marital status; provided she was British otherwise than by descent, of course.

 

As said, the UK, and Thailand, both recognise and allow dual nationality; so, if otherwise entitled to each, the child of a dual Thai/British national will also be a Thai/British national. As the OP's son is.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

8 hours ago, Simon265 said:

The registration does not make anything easier later in life, the passport application  requires the long birth certificate of the British parent, and the registration does not provide a British birth certificate, for that the child has to be born in Britain. A translation of the local birth certificate will suffice to do any job that a registration certificate will do. 

Once you son has that (which should put him on the computer system) and the translation of his Thai  certificate with your name on it, he should be able to apply (even online, I would think with a UK postal address) for a long passport.

I went through a lot of this last year with my son.

Edited December 31, 2016 by George FmplesdaCosteedback
qualifying into

[Briggsy]

Apart from 7by7, this thread has turned into the misinformation olympics.

[7by7]

22 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

On ‎31‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:24 AM, Simon265 said:

On ‎31‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 4:18 AM, stbkk said:

One thing I would suggest you do (if you haven't done it already) is get his birth registered at the British embassy, and get him a UK birth certificate. It will make anything he may have to do later in life related to the UK (e.g. apply for his passport) easier, if it turns out he has to do it himself.

The registration does not make anything easier later in life, the passport application  requires the long birth certificate of the British parent, and the registration does not provide a British birth certificate, for that the child has to be born in Britain. A translation of the local birth certificate will suffice to do any job that a registration certificate will do. 

Once you son has that (which should put him on the computer system) and the translation of his Thai  certificate with your name on it, he should be able to apply (even online, I would think with a UK postal address) for a long passport.

I went through a lot of this last year with my son.

 

I agree totally with Simon265; a consular birth certificate has no concrete benefit that I can think of.

 

Register a birth abroad

Quote

You must register your child’s birth according to the regulations in the country where the child was born. They’ll give you a local birth certificate.

This local birth certificate should be accepted in the UK, eg when you apply for a passport or register with a school or doctor. You might need to have it translated and certified if it isn’t in English.

Once you’ve registered locally you may also be able to register the birth with the UK authorities. You can only do this if the child was born on or after 1 January 1983.

You don’t need to register with the UK authorities but it means:

• the birth will be recorded with the General Register Offices or at the National Records Office of Scotland
• you can order a consular birth registration certificate

You can still apply for a UK passport for your child even if you don’t register the birth in the UK.

(7by7 emphasis)

 

A consular birth certificate does not replace the local, in this case Thai, birth certificate which will still be needed whenever a birth certificate is required, e.g. passport applications etc.

 

So the only reason for doing so is because it may be useful to future generations who wish to research their family tree via the GRO or NRO!

 

It's not cheap, either:

• Registration; £150
• Copy of certificate; £50
• Postage to have documents returned to Thailand; £25

Still, if you like giving HMG money for no reason, go ahead.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

Interesting, but as it was said before the rules change over the years.

I got my son a British (child) passport from the British embassy in Bangkok with all the same stuff I handed in to them for his Birth registration certificate about a year before, although that was back in the mid-90s.

Last year I was told it should have been on the computer when we had some problems renewing it. Sorted out now anyway.

[LongTimeLurker]

On 1/2/2017 at 0:22 AM, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Interesting, but as it was said before the rules change over the years.

 

The rules have indeed changed since I last looked at them when my kid was born

[LongTimeLurker]

On 12/31/2016 at 4:30 PM, 7by7 said:

 

 

 

Not as far as both the UK and Thailand are concerned; both countries allow dual nationality, whether the second was obtained by birth or registration or naturalisation.

 

 

British citizenship can descend from either parent; not just the father. Indeed, prior to 2006 children born aboard could only inherit their father's British nationality if he was married to their mother, but inherited their mother's British nationality regardless of her marital status; provided she was British otherwise than by descent, of course.

 

As said, the UK, and Thailand, both recognise and allow dual nationality; so, if otherwise entitled to each, the child of a dual Thai/British national will also be a Thai/British national. As the OP's son is.

 

In the case of the OPs son he is British by descent so his child will not automatically be entitled to British nationality unless the child is born in UK or the mother is a UK citizen born in UK.

 

So the UK part of the dual nationality will not be recognised, only the Thai (and nationality of the mother)

[7by7]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

In the case of the OPs son he is British by descent so his child will not automatically be entitled to British nationality unless the child is born in UK or the mother is a UK citizen born in UK.

 

So the UK part of the dual nationality will not be recognised, only the Thai (and nationality of the mother)

 

What point are you trying to make?

 

My reply which you quote was in response to

On ‎31‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:11 AM, Autonuaq said:

.Dual citizinship is alos different and in mostcase the child has to choose which nationality it wants to keep.

 

Which is, as I said, incorrect as far as the UK and Thailand are concerned; both countries recognise dual nationality.

 

Back to the OP's son; yes, as I previously said, he is British by descent therefore his children will only be automatically British if

On ‎30‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:37 AM, 7by7 said:

 

1. they are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and their mother is British otherwise than by descent, or
2. they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

 

So, unless one of these conditions are met, or he is able to register his children as British

On ‎31‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:30 AM, 7by7 said:

under section 3.2 or 3.5 of the British nationality Act 1981, but would have to do so before they were 18

his children will not be British and so there will be no "UK part of the dual nationality" to be "recognised!" .

 

If, however, the second of those conditions is met or he is able to register them as British then they will be British otherwise than by descent and so able to pass their British nationality onto their children regardless of where they are born and the nationality of their mother.

 

What other nationality(ies) they may have depends on where they are born, the nationality of the mother and the relevant nationality laws of the country(ies) concerned.

 

If the mother is Thai, then the child will be Thai wherever s/he is born.