Foreign income brought into Thailand

[JimGant]

Quote

If you are here 180 days in any year any funds you remit to Thailand in the year you earn them.. Legally need to be declared and are subject to Thai tax. 

 

Most tax treaties exempt governmental and social pensions from Thai taxation, i.e., such payments are taxable only in the country making the payments. This is certainly true of the tax treaties the US and the UK have with Thailand. And many Yanks have their government and Social Security pensions direct deposited to Bangkok Bank -- what could be a clearer picture of funds remitted in the year earned....? But, as they're exempt from Thai taxation per treaty, no problem. And, of course, no requirement to file a Thai tax return. Private pensions are another matter, however.

 

And some countries, like Norway, do allow their government pensions to be taxed by Thailand -- if brought into Thailand. Such pensions have 15% withheld at source in Norway -- but the treaty says, if brought into Thailand, you're supposed to file a Thai tax return. Doing so will then get you credit -- up to 15% -- against those Norwegian taxes withheld at source. Bottom line for Norwegians: Pay at least 15% tax on your pension -- or more, if Thai taxes exceed 15%. See this discussion:

 

 

[KarenBravo]

Went to see a tax lawyer today.

She confirmed that a foreigner cannot get a Thai tax number without a Thai work-permit.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Went to see a tax lawyer today.

She confirmed that a foreigner cannot get a Thai tax number without a Thai work-permit.

Then how did all the people without a work permit get them that have posted in this topic.

A work permit is not listed on the requirements here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/21987.0.html

Quote

Photocopy of : 

-	alien certificate/ passport/ PIN card/ government officer identification card.
-	House registration book of taxpayer/estate administrator
-	Court order appointing estate administrator

 

[KarenBravo]

Just reporting what I was told.

[jonw8uk]

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

 But you conveniently omit to mention the little matter of seeking reimbursement from HMRC for tax due to the Thai taxman which has already been deducted at source in the UK. Not quite so straightforward when the tax years don't match each other, would you not agree?

 

money that has been taxed at source (the uk) is not liable for thai tax due to the DTA. why would you seek a tax rebate from HMRC?

[Maestro]

Went to see a tax lawyer today.
She confirmed that a foreigner cannot get a Thai tax number without a Thai work-permit.

Unfortunately, not every lawyer who proclaims to be an expert in a certain field always gives correct information.

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[localczar]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Where we find it.. Thai Tax Law !! It really is that simple. 

 

If you are here 180 days in any year any funds you remit to Thailand in the year you earn them.. Legally need to be declared and are subject to Thai tax. 

 

If you perform any work while physically within the kingdom, that work from day 1 legally needs to be declared and is subject to Thai Tax. 

 

Dont work in Thailand, and dont remit to Thailand funds that you earn inside that calendar year. Is that so hard a tax proposition to understand ? 

show me the "Thai Tax Law"....i would like to see it.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, localczar said:

show me the "Thai Tax Law"....i would like to see it.

Here is a good start for finding it : http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

After you look at that page look at the top right side of it for a link to the tax code.

[localczar]

17 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Here is a good start for finding it : http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

After you look at that page look at the top right side of it for a link to the tax code.

right, have that doc....thanks.

 

The bottom line at least with my contracting state tax agreement with Thailand, is that double taxation is avoided irrespective of time in any country. Easy explanation why Thai rev dept. does not pursure taxation on 99.9% of foreigners with a non-immigrant visa to Thailand. Any money I bring to Thailand when I go there is not taxable irrespective of when I earned it, not that thai's could figure that out.

 

 

[eisfeld]

4 hours ago, KarenBravo said:

Went to see a tax lawyer today.

She confirmed that a foreigner cannot get a Thai tax number without a Thai work-permit.

 

You are in Phuket right? What you experienced is exactly why I don't go to lawyers in Phuket but instead search for reputable and big firms in BKK. The ones in Phuket don't know anything and get simple, basic things wrong. It's unbelievable.

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, localczar said:

right, have that doc....thanks.

 

The bottom line at least with my contracting state tax agreement with Thailand, is that double taxation is avoided irrespective of time in any country. Easy explanation why Thai rev dept. does not pursure taxation on 99.9% of foreigners with a non-immigrant visa to Thailand. Any money I bring to Thailand when I go there is not taxable irrespective of when I earned it, not that thai's could figure that out.

 

 

 

I you are resident here >180 days its up to you to get it cleared from the uk where your not resident.. Having a double tax agreement doesnt mean you dont have to do anything.. It means you can claim the second deduction back. 

 

I am stunned how some people are so ill informed on these issues. 

[LivinLOS]

6 hours ago, jonw8uk said:

 

money that has been taxed at source (the uk) is not liable for thai tax due to the DTA. why would you seek a tax rebate from HMRC?

 

 

There are situations where moneys taxed at source ik uk are liable to pay tax in Thailand.. 

 

You would then claim them back from the UK, after showing you had paid your Thai taxes on your Thai residency. 

 

As said, a DTA doesnt stop you having taxes deducted twice, it allows you to claim back the set which is unfairly applied. 

[LivinLOS]

6 hours ago, KarenBravo said:

Went to see a tax lawyer today.

She confirmed that a foreigner cannot get a Thai tax number without a Thai work-permit.

 

 

Simply not true.. If you have rental yields for example. 

[eisfeld]

21 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

I you are resident here >180 days its up to you to get it cleared from the uk where your not resident.. Having a double tax agreement doesnt mean you dont have to do anything.. It means you can claim the second deduction back. 

 

I am stunned how some people are so ill informed on these issues. 

 

Not only ill informed but even ignorant and arrogant about it. And not even young people.

 

But it shows you also that education on these really important and basic systems that affect everyone in their daily lifes is completely lacking.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

 

Not only ill informed but even ignorant and arrogant about it. And not even young people.

 

But it shows you also that education on these really important and basic systems that affect everyone in their daily lifes is completely lacking.

 

Most people go through life without knowing all the minute details of the tax laws to which they are subject and, knowingly or not, perhaps fail to comply with one detail or another, and they never run into trouble for it.

 

Aside from that, with so-called white-collar crimes, eg tax evasion, it is like with more serious crimes, eg murder: the perpetrator takes a calculated risk. The higher the perceived risk of being found out and caught and the more severe the legal provisions for punishment, the less likely a person is tempted to commit the crime.

 

Apropos calculated risk, I have noticed an increasing trend of some form of automatic exchange of information between the contracting countries being included in double taxation agreements (DTA). It may be helpful if a foreigner subject to a DTA looks at the details of this agreement to find out what data, if any, regarding the tax collected from him in either or both of the contracting countries is exchanged automatically, ie without his knowledge, and includes this information in the equation for the calculation of his risk.

[LivinLOS]

Its the belligerence and attitude that comes along with being wrong and owing taxes all at the same time that kind of floors me. 

 

I have lived spread around all my adult life.. I have had tax declarations and residencies and part earned incomes in Germany, Holland, Belgium, England, Ireland and the USA. I have a residency but (due to caution and research) no tax liability in Thailand. 

 

The idea that 'I already paid tax so I dont owe any more, no matter what I do' is going so far beyond over simplification its moronic. 

 

Thailand is actually really easy, just dont bring your earnings here in the year you make them.. If you do, and your here >6 months, you owe tax. They are not chasing it, but you owe it. 

[localczar]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Its the belligerence and attitude that comes along with being wrong and owing taxes all at the same time that kind of floors me. 

 

I have lived spread around all my adult life.. I have had tax declarations and residencies and part earned incomes in Germany, Holland, Belgium, England, Ireland and the USA. I have a residency but (due to caution and research) no tax liability in Thailand. 

 

The idea that 'I already paid tax so I dont owe any more, no matter what I do' is going so far beyond over simplification its moronic. 

 

Thailand is actually really easy, just dont bring your earnings here in the year you make them.. If you do, and your here >6 months, you owe tax. They are not chasing it, but you owe it. 

you are making incorrect statements, (as usual). Refer to the tax treaties, then maybe you will have a clue...

[Lovethailandelite]

5 minutes ago, localczar said:

you are making incorrect statements, (as usual). Refer to the tax treaties, then maybe you will have a clue...

He isn't. It's you that is not understanding how it works.

[LivinLOS]

8 minutes ago, localczar said:

you are making incorrect statements, (as usual). Refer to the tax treaties, then maybe you will have a clue...

 

 

One of the ways I have made my millions is in the cross border supply of labor.. Over 400 full time employees all of which were posted internationally and that before I was 28 year old. 

 

So cross border labor supply, the OECD model conventions on taxation, dual taxation.. Especially within European markets.. Is pretty much my legal speciality. Tax treaties, employment law, and actually understanding them in practice, is my field of speciality. 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by LivinLOS

[MANFROMBOCA]

On 1/12/2017 at 0:00 AM, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Maybe Jomtien is flooded by foreigners expecting to have the forms filled in and the tax people got fed up with the demand, "you have to fill this in for me".

 

My local tax office hardly sees any foreigners.

ok again when and where  ??????  or is this just a fanatsy   and i dont think anyone is demanding they fill out form they have always and still are polite they just said new rules cannot do anymore

[andux]

Thanks to everyone for your answers.

 

From what I can see, the law clearly states that I should declare the foreign income brought into the country. From a legal perspective, anyone spending more than 180 days here in a given year should get a Tax ID and declare the foreign income brought into the country, as long as it's income from the current year.

 

There seems to be no real enforcement of this rule, but that doesn't mean the law is not there.

 

Now, however, I do have my concerns because in this country things sometimes work exactly the opposite of what they should, so doing the right, legal thing might actually raise some flags. Has someone ever declared foreign income brought into the country? If so, were there any questions asked?

 

I don't mind paying a bit of tax in Thailand; after all I've been here most of 2016, so paying is not a problem at all. My concern is that they could misinterpret what I'm doing.

 

I used to live in Europe, and even though I always had everything correctly declared, tax departments there always wanted more, and a visit from them was never good news. Not sure if Thailand's Revenue Department is as hungry for money as their counterparts in Europe though.

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by andux

[localczar]

6 hours ago, andux said:

Thanks to everyone for your answers.

 

From what I can see, the law clearly states that I should declare the foreign income brought into the country. From a legal perspective, anyone spending more than 180 days here in a given year should get a Tax ID and declare the foreign income brought into the country, as long as it's income from the current year.

 

There seems to be no real enforcement of this rule, but that doesn't mean the law is not there.

 

Now, however, I do have my concerns because in this country things sometimes work exactly the opposite of what they should, so doing the right, legal thing might actually raise some flags. Has someone ever declared foreign income brought into the country? If so, were there any questions asked?

 

I don't mind paying a bit of tax in Thailand; after all I've been here most of 2016, so paying is not a problem at all. My concern is that they could misinterpret what I'm doing.

 

I used to live in Europe, and even though I always had everything correctly declared, tax departments there always wanted more, and a visit from them was never good news. Not sure if Thailand's Revenue Department is as hungry for money as their counterparts in Europe though.

 

The reverse of this is that you must prove your funds in thailand were foreign sourced should you want to transfer large sums out of thailand, this is/was accomplished by a foriegn transaction certificate, (tor tor sam), BUT this concept has been discontinued. When it comes to transferring money out, NO tax docs are EVER mentioned in the equation, NOBODY in the thai system EVER asks about income tax, both when the money enters and leaves the country.

 

So, all you do gooders, livinlos, etc, keep spouting your drivel, its means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things.

[LivinLOS]

10 hours ago, localczar said:

The reverse of this is that you must prove your funds in thailand were foreign sourced should you want to transfer large sums out of thailand, this is/was accomplished by a foriegn transaction certificate, (tor tor sam), BUT this concept has been discontinued. When it comes to transferring money out, NO tax docs are EVER mentioned in the equation, NOBODY in the thai system EVER asks about income tax, both when the money enters and leaves the country.

 

So, all you do gooders, livinlos, etc, keep spouting your drivel, its means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things.

 

 

Thats also not correct.. move more than 50k USD and they do.. 

 

The tor tor sam was changed to the FETF years ago. Any amount >50k USD both generates a FETF and is put on hold in or out pending clearance and stated reasons for the amount. I have a bank safe deposit box with a number of them in. 

[GordonP]

Popped into the Jomtien Revenue on Friday with the "English" return completed.
YES it has to be the "Thai" version which is different in layout not just language.
YES they did complete the form for me however it was quite.
For the first time in three years (first year was initial registration) I was fined ฿200 for late return for first half of 2016. Discovered that returns are biannual having to be made within 3 calendar months from 30 June and 31 Dec. Never to old to learn something new!
As usual staff helpful and courteous.

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[mahjongguy]

Twice a year? Depends on the type of income.

 

" Taxpayer is liable to file Personal Income Tax return and make a payment to the Revenue Department within the last day of March following the taxable year. Taxpayer, who derives income specified in c, d or f in 2.3 during the first six months of the taxable year is also required to file half - yearly return and make a payment to the Revenue Department within the last day of September of that taxable year. "

 

from http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

 

 

[GordonP]

Yes, it's rental income.

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[Bronx]

On 13/01/2017 at 0:18 PM, JimGant said:

 

Most tax treaties exempt governmental and social pensions from Thai taxation, i.e., such payments are taxable only in the country making the payments. This is certainly true of the tax treaties the US and the UK have with Thailand. And many Yanks have their government and Social Security pensions direct deposited to Bangkok Bank -- what could be a clearer picture of funds remitted in the year earned....? But, as they're exempt from Thai taxation per treaty, no problem. And, of course, no requirement to file a Thai tax return. Private pensions are another matter, however.

 

And some countries, like Norway, do allow their government pensions to be taxed by Thailand -- if brought into Thailand. Such pensions have 15% withheld at source in Norway -- but the treaty says, if brought into Thailand, you're supposed to file a Thai tax return. Doing so will then get you credit -- up to 15% -- against those Norwegian taxes withheld at source. Bottom line for Norwegians: Pay at least 15% tax on your pension -- or more, if Thai taxes exceed 15%. See this discussion:

 

 

Hi Jim,

 

Wife & I have been visiting for quite a number of years  but always less than 180 days.

 

Both with Retirement Visa -  only source of income my pensions - UK State & UK Private - tax paid at source.

 

We are now considering buying a Condo here  and staying for most of the year.

 

You mention that State Pension is dealt with as I had thought - i.e. Taxed in UK - not Thailand due to terms of DTA.

 

But you go on to say - " Private pensions are another matter, however."  - that worries me - if you have time can you expand on that point please?

 

Be grateful.

Best Rgds.

 

 

[rockingrobin]

Some may find this of interest

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/21973.0.html

[JimGant]

Bronze,

 

Quote

But you go on to say - " Private pensions are another matter, however."  - that worries me - if you have time can you expand on that point please?

 

The Thai-UK dta agreement is silent on private pensions. And, after further nit picking in the treaty, it looks like a State Pension doesn't qualify as a government pension ('cause it wasn't earned for providing government services). Here are a couple of threads discussing this -- with Brit input, which trumps my knowledge: