Visa Agents - Why Should We Be Castigated For Using Them

[harrry]

20 minutes ago, NancyL said:

I have worked out the "Financial Flow-chart" and shared it with what I thought were appropriate people both foreign and Thai.  It really didn't take many sessions of sitting around Imm all day watching the action and talking with a few people.  The retaliation from CM Imm. told me that I was probably accurate in my assessments.  A portion of the fees you pay to all visa agents go to CM Imm to "grease the wheel".  As I mentioned in the Imm. Prom. thread, now hospitals are denied free access for medical extensions and are told to use G4T.  

 

Even small time operators, like a Thai lady who owns a restaurant and helps maybe 2 or 3 expats a month do their retirement extensions has been "called in" and had the "system" explained to her by CM Imm, what portion of her fee is suppose to go to them and if that portion is higher than what she currently charges,  she is advised to raise the fee to her customers.

 

The one "enhancement" they've done recently, is to permit visa agents, at least the bigger ones, to obtain "appointments" rather than having to send out staff to sit in the queue at 5 am.

 

You indicated one of your reasons for leaving was that the CC had thrown in the towel by saying they cannot interfere with custom.  What did they say about the fact that it is illegal for a person from the US, Australia and the UK among others to make facilitation payments....and they can be prosecuted in their home countries if they do.  An example at a high level is Rolls Royce and its facilitation payments but the same laws and penalties apply.

[connda]

The real question is: Do you really care what anybody thinks?

 

The answer for me is unequivocally "No", I don't.  Last year after they scrapped the useful on-line queue system I chose to hire an agent.  No waiting in the Zero-Dark-Thirty, hit-or-miss-to-get-a-number, queue line.  Agent called us to give us a time to show up at immigration.  Once there we waited about 15 minutes to be seen.  The agent obviously knew the IOs.  The process was the smooth.  In and out in about an hour for a extension based on marriage.  If the queue system had not been ditched, we would have done it ourselves like we always have done.

This year is still up in the air.  I still don't know if I'll need to process my extension in Chiang Mai.  If I do, and considering that the Airport location is now closed and everyone is being funneled through the Promenade immigration office, I will absolutely be using the same Visa agent again. 

 

For those who wish to stand in line and go it on there own - dandy.  That's their choice.

For those who wish to use and agent - dandy.  That's their choice.

 

It really takes a busy-body to get their kickers in a twist about how someone else chooses to run their life.  But that's life in the expat community of Chiang Mai.  Busy-bodies abound.

Edited February 16, 2017 by connda

[amexpat]

32 minutes ago, connda said:

For those who wish to stand in line and go it on there own - dandy.  That's their choice.

For those who wish to use and agent - dandy.  That's their choice.

 

That's some profound shit.  

 

Thanks for your lengthy post to explain that you aren't interested.

[Lizard2010]

Lets fast forward to 2 years time

When hopefully the new immigration building is completed and everything working

Will there be a Visa Agent in the building?

Will a Visa Agent be in the local Area?

We will all have to wait

[Bill97]

None of this is difficult, complicated or new. But so many try to make it so.

Go for a walk.

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to Phuketwan has been removed:

 

26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum.

[OneZero]

Not sure if I'm allowed to post the same thing to two different threads, but I think it's worth sharing:

 

It's a Quality management issue to design process' & procedures which maximize efficiency for both the organization & the customer. Providing quality will increase customer base & vice versa.  Customers will evaluate the cost vs service quality and decide where to conduct business.  There will of course be decisions in both directions.  Chiang Mai does not have to reinvent the wheel in order to provide it's customers with a better quality experience.  Jomtien Immigration (for the approx 10 years I observed them) provides an excellent benchmark for CM Immigration to learn from and emulate, but it seems that CM Immigration does not have sufficient incentive to do so.

 

My Jomtien experience with 90 day reports has never required greater than a 30 minute wait, usually far less.

My Jomtien experience with renewing retirement visa is like an assembly line, consistently as follows:

I wait approx 2 minutes to be served by one of the young female volunteer college interns to look over my paperwork, & she hands me a number.  I wait 5-10 minutes to see an official employee who verifies that my paperwork is indeed in order.  He hands me a number and tells me to return at a later time to pick up my completed passport (either later the same day or the following day depending on what time I was there).  So far this has never taken me more than 30 minutes, one time I timed it at 7 minutes total.  

When I return at the later time, with my number to pick up the completed passport, the efficiency is also evident.  Again a very short wait to see the official employee, but an extra minute or two are required because they may take a picture of you when you pick up the passport.  Again, this has never taken me more than 30 minutes, one time I timed it at 10 minutes total.

 

Edit: PS, there are a hell of a lot of customers flowing in & out quickly..  So there can be no valid argument that Jomtien has fewer customers or I just had a lucky day.  Also, there were only one or a few employees working at the different desks providing the different services Immigration offices provide.  It was the quality process' / procedures they  have designed making it a very tolerable experience.

[luther]

When I worked at an International school near Chonburi, the school hired one of the Thai staff members to basically be the school's “agent.” This job assignment rotated every couple of years. Some of the Thai staff liked the assignment. Others hated it. It involved filling out hundreds of pages of forms, dotting every eye, keeping track of money, etc. It also involved smoozing with immigration officials in Sri Racha. For many years immigration officers came to the school. Visa extensions, re-entry permits, work permit updates all seemed seamless. You just approached a table, signed a couple of times, and viola. The immigration department charged the school for this. They had to bring in off-duty agents to fill their shoes in the office while they went to our school. I knew 2 of the staff members who worked with immigration and both made it clear there was a tip on top of covering the extra staff's pay. When the fee was raised by a large percent, the school gave up, forcing teachers to make the trip to immigration.

 

I've often wondered what will happen when visa agent suddenly double their prices.

 

On another note, it seems US immigration is forcing more and more foreigners entering the US to give up passwords to social media and smartphones. Yesterday, a friend's relative was denied US entry and forced to fly back to NZ after an agent spotted photos purported to show him working in the US without a green card. The law seems pretty clear that US citizens can reject the request, but foreigners not.

Edited February 16, 2017 by luther

[jonwilly]

I had Breakfast with my 97 year old friend resident of CM since 1960.

Back then Immigration was  at Mae Teng 40 kms north of CM.

Same old Poo then. Told one tale by one official and next visit all change.

Thai Government Officials are doing a job, some are typical Thai and helpful, others get abused by their customers, so the next customer gets the run around.

They still get same miserable pay at end of month.

Strange Thailand does score high on this list of Corrupt counties. 85 in fact.

80	Mongolia	39	38	36
80	Morocco	39	37	37
85	Burkina Faso	38	38	38
85	India	38	36	36
85	Jamaica	38	38	38
85	Peru	38	38	38
85	Philippines	38	36	34
85	Sri Lanka	38	37	40
85	Thailand	38	35	37
85	Trinidad and Tobago	38	38	39
85	Zambia	38	38	37
94	Armenia	37	36	34
94	Colombia	37	36	36
94	Egypt	37	32	32
94	Gabon	37	34	35
94	Liberia	37	38	41
94	Panama	37	35	38
100	Algeria	36	36	34
100	China	36	40	39
100	Suriname	36	36	37
103	Bolivia	35	34	34
103	Mexico	35	34	34
103	Moldova	35	35	36
103	Niger	35	34	33
107	Argentina	34	34	35
107	Djibouti	34	36	36
107	Indonesia	34	32	32
110	Albania	33	31	33
110	Ecuador	33	35	32
110	Ethiopia	33	33	33
110	Kosovo	33	33	34
110	Malawi	33	37	37
115	Côte d´Ivoire	32	27	29
115	Dominican Republic	32	29	32
115	Guatemala	32	29	33
115	Mali	32	28	34
119	Belarus	31	29	31
119	Mozambique	31	30	31
119	Sierra Leone	31	30	31
119	Tanzania	31	33	35
119	Vietnam	31	31	31
124	Guyana	30	27	28
124	Mauritania	30	30	31
126	Azerbaijan	29	28	27
126	Gambia	29	28	34
126	Honduras	29	26	28
126	Kazakhstan	29	26	28
126	Nepal	29	31	27
126	Pakistan	29	28	27
126	Togo	29	29	30
133	Madagascar	28	28	32
133	Nicaragua	28	28	29
133	Timor-Leste	28	30	33
136	Cameroon	27	25	26
136	Iran	27	25	28
136	Kyrgyzstan	27	24	24
136	Lebanon	27	28	30
136	Nigeria	27	25	27
136	Russia	27	28	28
142	Comoros	26	28	28
142	Uganda	26	26	29
142	Ukraine	26	25	26
145	Bangladesh	25	27	26
145	Guinea	25	24	24
145	Kenya	25	27	27
145	Laos	25	26	21
145	Papua New Guinea	25	25	25
150	Central African Republic	24	25	26
150	Paraguay	24	24	25
152	Congo, Republic of	23	22	26
152	Tajikistan	23	22	22
154	Chad	22	19	19
154	Congo, Democratic Republic of	22	22	21
156	Cambodia	21	20	22
156	Myanmar	21	21	15
156	Zimbabwe	21	21	20
159	Burundi	20	21	19
159	Syria	20	17	26
161	Angola	19	23	22
161	Guinea-Bissau	19	19	25
161	Haiti	19	19	19
161	Venezuela	19	20	19
161	Yemen	19	18	23
166	Eritrea	18	20	25
166	Libya	18	15	21
166	Uzbekistan	18	17	17
169	Turkmenistan	17	17	17
170	Iraq	16	16	18
171	South Sudan	15	14	#N/A
172	Afghanistan	12	8	8
173	Sudan	11	11	13
174	Korea (North)	8	8	8
174	Somalia	8	8	8

To learn more about the results and view the confidence intervals, you can read our FAQ and download an XLS of the results.

DOWNLOAD INFO PACKAGE

 

 

CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX 2014 BROCHURE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1	Denmark	92	91	90
2	New Zealand	91	91	90
3	Finland	89	89	90
4	Sweden	87	89	88
5	Norway	86	86	85
5	Switzerland	86	85	86
7	Singapore	84	86	87
8	Netherlands	83	83	84
9	Luxembourg	82	80	80
10	Canada	81	81	84
11	Australia	80	81	85
12	Germany	79	78	79
12	Iceland	79	78	82
14	United Kingdom	78	76	74
15	Belgium	76	75	75
15	Japan	76	74	74
17	Barbados	74	75	76
17	Hong Kong

 

80	Mongolia	39	38	36
80	Morocco	39	37	37
85	Burkina Faso	38	38	38
85	India	38	36	36
85	Jamaica	38	38	38
85	Peru	38	38	38
85	Philippines	38	36	34
85	Sri Lanka	38	37	40
85	Thailand	38	35	37
85	Trinidad and Tobago	38	38	39
85	Zambia	38	38	37
94	Armenia	37	36	34
94	Colombia	37	36	36
94	Egypt	37	32	32
94	Gabon	37	34	35
94	Liberia	37	38	41
94	Panama	37	35	38
100	Algeria	36	36	34
100	China	36	40	39
100	Suriname	36	36	37
103	Bolivia	35	34	34
103	Mexico	35	34	34
103	Moldova	35	35	36
103	Niger	35	34	33
107	Argentina	34	34	35
107	Djibouti	34	36	36
107	Indonesia	34	32	32
110	Albania	33	31	33
110	Ecuador	33	35	32
110	Ethiopia	33	33	33
110	Kosovo	33	33	34
110	Malawi	33	37	37
115	Côte d´Ivoire	32	27	29
115	Dominican Republic	32	29	32
115	Guatemala	32	29	33
115	Mali	32	28	34
119	Belarus	31	29	31
119	Mozambique	31	30	31
119	Sierra Leone	31	30	31
119	Tanzania	31	33	35
119	Vietnam	31	31	31
124	Guyana	30	27	28
124	Mauritania	30	30	31
126	Azerbaijan	29	28	27
126	Gambia	29	28	34
126	Honduras	29	26	28
126	Kazakhstan	29	26	28
126	Nepal	29	31	27
126	Pakistan	29	28	27
126	Togo	29	29	30
133	Madagascar	28	28	32
133	Nicaragua	28	28	29
133	Timor-Leste	28	30	33
136	Cameroon	27	25	26
136	Iran	27	25	28
136	Kyrgyzstan	27	24	24
136	Lebanon	27	28	30
136	Nigeria	27	25	27
136	Russia	27	28	28
142	Comoros	26	28	28
142	Uganda	26	26	29
142	Ukraine	26	25	26
145	Bangladesh	25	27	26
145	Guinea	25	24	24
145	Kenya	25	27	27
145	Laos	25	26	21
145	Papua New Guinea	25	25	25
150	Central African Republic	24	25	26
150	Paraguay	24	24	25
152	Congo, Republic of	23	22	26
152	Tajikistan	23	22	22
154	Chad	22	19	19
154	Congo, Democratic Republic of	22	22	21
156	Cambodia	21	20	22
156	Myanmar	21	21	15
156	Zimbabwe	21	21	20
159	Burundi	20	21	19
159	Syria	20	17	26
161	Angola	19	23	22
161	Guinea-Bissau	19	19	25
161	Haiti	19	19	19
161	Venezuela	19	20	19
161	Yemen	19	18	23
166	Eritrea	18	20	25
166	Libya	18	15	21
166	Uzbekistan	18	17	17
169	Turkmenistan	17	17	17
170	Iraq	16	16	18
171	South Sudan	15	14	#N/A
172	Afghanistan	12	8	8
173	Sudan	11	11	13
174	Korea (North)	8	8	8
174	Somalia	8	8	8

To learn more about the results and view the confidence intervals, you can read our FAQ and download an XLS of the results.

DOWNLOAD INFO PACKAGE

 

 

CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX 2014 BROCHURE

 

 

[Thailand]

1 hour ago, Lizard2010 said:

Lets fast forward to 2 years time

When hopefully the new immigration building is completed and everything working

Will there be a Visa Agent in the building?

Will a Visa Agent be in the local Area?

We will all have to wait

A dedicated shop front no doubt, perhaps a bakery offering additional services.

 

 

[jonwilly]

Apologies on previous post I have no control over how Apple Mac reproduces.

 

john

[connda]

2 hours ago, amexpat said:

That's some profound shit.  

 

Thanks for your lengthy post to explain that you aren't interested.

"It really takes a busy-body to get their kickers in a twist about how someone else chooses to run their life."

If the shoe fits.....    And thanks for providing an example. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by connda

[mamborobert]

I see PI is rated the same as Thailand.  ....

 

Believe itor not the Bureau of Immigration in PI started using the "Good Guys in Bad Guys out" in early 2014. :)

 

My father remarked that anywhere the Spanish colonised they installed the Three C's.....Catholocism, Corruption, and the Clap.

 

in 2007-9 I was doing contract work at NAIA and Centennial Airports in Manila.  There was a huge party when the Bureau of Immigration was ranked 86 for corruption in a listing of all goverment departments.  Later I found out that  the previous year tthey were 87.  That the lower the rank the cleaner the agency, and that only 88 agencies were ranked ....

 

It was so bad there a while that in the departure hall before you clear Immigration there were mobile phone blockers installed so that "agents" could not contact officers and know which queue to go to for a good run.  Immigration officers would collect people at the drop off, carry their bags, check them in without the airline even seeing the passenger, and then walk them through immigration direct to the relevant departure lounge.

 

By comparison, like a lot of things Thailand Immigration is just a piss poor effort all round.  At least in the PI there was sometimes a facade of decency and contrition.  Here, with many agencies there is not even a half arsed effort.  Look athe amount of videos that are shown of BIB soliicting and taking bribes and still going strong as salary supplement, let alone the man at the top with his "consultancy" services for the beer conglomerates..  

 

End of rant..start of lunch...it is still all good in CM.

Edited February 16, 2017 by mamborobert

[mesquite]

3 minutes ago, mamborobert said:

I see PI is rated the same as Thailand.  ....

 

Believe itor not the Bureau of Immigration in PI started using the "Good Guys in Bad Guys out" in early 2014. :)

 

My father remarked that anywhere the Spanish colonised they installed the Three C's.....Catholocism, Corruption, and the Clap.

 

in 2007-9 I was doing contract work at NAIA and Centennial Airports in Manila.  There was a huge party when the Bureau of Immigration was ranked 86 for corruption in a listing of all goverment departments.  Later I found out that  the previous year tthey were 87.  That the lower the rank the cleaner the agency, and that only 88 agencies were ranked ....

 

It was so bad there a while that in the departure hall before you clear Immigration there were mobile phone blockers installed so that "agents" could not contact officers and know which queue to go to for a good run.  Immigration officers would collect people at the drop off, carry their bags, check them in without the airline even seeing the passenger, and then walk them through immigration direct to the relevant departure lounge.

 

By comparison, like a lot of things Thailand Immigration is just a piss poor effort all round.  At least in the PI there was sometimes a facade of decency and contrition.  Here, with many agencies there is not even a half arsed effort.  Look athe amount of videos that are shown of BIB soliicting and taking bribes and still going strong as salary supplement, let alone the man at the top with his "consultancy" services for the beer conglomerates..  

 

End of rant..start of lunch...it is still all good in CM.

Who was 88?

[mamborobert]

Customs....

 

Both BI and Customs were described as "Execrable"   a beautiful word.

Edited February 16, 2017 by mamborobert

[Lizard2010]

Also remember some of the Elderly Expats who have lived here a long time

Are Military Veterans

Plus some expat are I'm a fixed pension that has not changed over many years

Some need help and may require  a visa agent or someone to help them with their Immingrstion Matters

[evenstevens]

6 hours ago, NancyL said:

 

 

The one "enhancement" they've done recently, is to permit visa agents, at least the bigger ones, to obtain "appointments" rather than having to send out staff to sit in the queue at 5 am.

 

perhaps 12 to 15 months ago, you posted on this board ,a list of  items  which you were going to straighten out with  the C/mai Immgr Dept in your crusade  against them

 

one  item was for all visa agents, to  queue the same as all expats (early morning starts), which will stop  the  back door jobs and a short time later you posted on the board,that my previous visa agent, had been told to do so,and from experience a little later, that was  indeed the case

Now

you are posting that  ,going back to the oringnal format(back door jobs) is a ENHANCEMENT!!!!!

gosh Nancl L , you are so hypercritcal

its a laugh of the day late afternoon to all

 

 

[ThaiPauly]

21 hours ago, pgrahmm said:

Our time - our money - our choice -

 

No castigating due - or warranted...

 

Have done it both ways over the years & I prefer to use an agency...

Exactly. I choose NOT to use visa agents. It's my choice no debate required

[ThaiPauly]

7 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

perhaps 12 to 15 months ago, you posted on this board ,a list of  items  which you were going to straighten out with  the C/mai Immgr Dept in your crusade  against them

 

one  item was for all visa agents, to  queue the same as all expats (early morning starts), which will stop  the  back door jobs and a short time later you posted on the board,that my previous visa agent, had been told to do so,and from experience a little later, that was  indeed the case

Now

you are posting that  ,going back to the oringnal format(back door jobs) is a ENHANCEMENT!!!!!

gosh Nancl L , you are so hypercritcal

its a laugh of the day late afternoon to all

 

 

Pray tell exactly what YOU have attempted to do to deal with immigration problems?

[evenstevens]

16 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

Pray tell exactly what YOU have attempted to do to deal with immigration problems?

absoulately nuffin cobber

as E/S posted  on this board, a day or so ago, i have no axe to grind with C/mai Immgr Dept  at all  , over many yrs,  E/S  easily adjusts to the flavour of the day, they have in place ,when i do business with them,      G4T visa agency ,  is presently my jockey,   and so far they have snuggly fitted in my saddle,

Its a Doors early evening to all

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark123456]

57 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

perhaps 12 to 15 months ago, you posted on this board ,a list of  items  which you were going to straighten out with  the C/mai Immgr Dept in your crusade  against them

 

one  item was for all visa agents, to  queue the same as all expats (early morning starts), which will stop  the  back door jobs and a short time later you posted on the board,that my previous visa agent, had been told to do so,and from experience a little later, that was  indeed the case

Now

you are posting that  ,going back to the oringnal format(back door jobs) is a ENHANCEMENT!!!!!

gosh Nancl L , you are so hypercritcal

its a laugh of the day late afternoon to all

 

 

From my experience, exactly the opposite has happened. When I used G4T a year ago, they were able to provide me with an appointment on the day I visited them. When I used them a couple of months ago, they needed to know when I was coming so they could get someone to sit in the queue in the morning.

[chiang mai]

I think poster TP has it right, it's a matter of personal choice for reasons that are personal, neither side should be applauded or condemned for their choice.

[Lizard2010]

1 minute ago, Mark123456 said:

From my experience, exactly the opposite has happened. When I used G4T a year ago, they were able to provide me with an appointment on the day I visited them. When I used them a couple of months ago, they needed to know when I was coming so they could get someone to sit in the queue in the morning.

It might gave something to do with the Immigration Officers who are here from Bangkok

Things have changed

Thanks for your post

We are now getting different reports now

[worgeordie]

Its all about money,and as long as it keeps flowing in,I cannot

see anything changing.it seems more and more restrictions

come into force,like the scrapping of the online booking,more

forms,so those that are afraid of filling in forms,and dont want

to get up at dawn to obtain a number in the queue ,are in away,

forced to use agents,would Immigration like more people to use

agents,sure they would,makes their life easier,and is a nice earner.

 

I will still be getting up at dawn ,it's only once a year ,so no big deal,

they should reinstate the online booking,if only for those that  are far away,

or are very elderly,how hard would it be ? insurmountable it seems. 

 

regards worgeordie

 

[evenstevens]

12 minutes ago, Mark123456 said:

From my experience, exactly the opposite has happened. When I used G4T a year ago, they were able to provide me with an appointment on the day I visited them. When I used them a couple of months ago, they needed to know when I was coming so they could get someone to sit in the queue in the morning.

going in on the 27 feb (from memory)they are going to ring me 24/2 to confirm my appointment,and time i have to be there,

will give a full update on my experiences extending my retirement visa with G4T visa agency

its a  Fabian good evening to all

[Mark123456]

24 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

going in on the 27 feb (from memory)they are going to ring me 24/2 to confirm my appointment,and time i have to be there,

will give a full update on my experiences extending my retirement visa with G4T visa agency

its a  Fabian good evening to all

If they can confirm on the Friday, that would suggest they no longer have to queue again. I don't suppose it makes any difference from our point of view as customers/clueless applicants :)

Edited February 16, 2017 by Mark123456

[Thailand]

25 minutes ago, Mark123456 said:

If they can confirm on the Friday, that would suggest they no longer have to queue again. I don't suppose it makes any difference from our point of view as customers/clueless applicants :)

Busted?

[LarryBird]

12 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

Let's look at it from a different perspective.

We know that no other Immigration Office has the problems seen here in the Chiang Mai office. We know this. We've heard it a dozen times from a dozen different regions. WE know... 

 

That presupposes that the rest of Thailand Immigration knows about the problem. It's very visible. So... Is this problem due to corruption? Or is it simply bad management?

1. Does the rest of Thailand Immigration support some sort of corruption? And if so, why isn't it going on at any other Immigration offices?

2. If it does NOT support corruption, why does it continue in Chiang Mai?

I suggest that this problem is NOT caused by corruption, but by management issues, and staffing problems exacerbated by a overly-large case load.

 

If you disagree, please show us the Financial Flow-chart to support your theory.

 

Sincerely,

 

Guy who has lived in Thailand for a long time, doesn't get it,  and never will.

[FolkGuitar]

27 minutes ago, LarryBird said:

 

Sincerely,

 

Guy who has lived in Thailand for a long time, doesn't get it,  and never will.

 

Possibly.

Or... a guy who doesn't see conspiracies where none exist.

 

[mamborobert]

5 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

Possibly.

Or... a guy who doesn't see conspiracies where none exist.

 

Jeez,,,you are no fun.

 

With that sort of common sense, objectivity and, reasoning this thread would not have lasted a millisecond.