My body defies the 'calories in-calories out' equation

[4MyEgo]

11 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

Huh?  It is on the diabetes.co.uk community website.  Surely diabetes sufferers can't all be spouting rubbish?  

 

Are you a medical man?

 

OK, I'll quote from another relevant website:

 

 In addition, insulin resistance is often associated with the following conditions:

• infection or severe illness,
• the metabolic syndrome,
• obesity,
• pregnancy,
• steroid use and with other medications, and
• stress.

- I don't have (or haven't had) any infection or severe illness

- I am not obese

- I am not pregnant

- I don't use steroids

- I am certainly not stressed

 

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here :)

 

 

 

 

There is an old saying, "you can lead them to water, but you can't force them to drink" I am sure you know of it, but have you read the link:

 

It might just answer your reason for not losing weight, irregardless of what you may think about the so called lists that you have shown us all.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caroline-j-cederquist-md/metabolism-dysfunction-th_b_6430370.html

 

My hunch is yet to be proven wrong, on that note, good night and good luck to not being insulin resistant.

[simon43]

Yes, I read your link, and based on the information in that link, I discounted it :)

 

But my low testosterone levels are supported by several medical websites as a reason for having a flabby tummy and love handles.

 

@DavisH, yes I should not expect too much at my age.  I want to shift the flab now because it will be even harder to shift it when I'm in my 60's or older, and it can only be good for my long-term health if I can lose it now.

[Acharn]

8 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

I did an accurate calorie count on my daily food and drinks - it is typically 1,050 kcalories.

 

But my normal calorie intake for as long as I can remember is no more than 1,400 kcalories per day.  

 

So I've reduced my calorie count by about 350, taken up daily cycle and exercise.  Surely, it defies the equation that I am not losing weight, nor the flab..

 

I agree that 1 month is not long enough perhaps to see signs of fat loss.  But surely one would expect to lose a couple of kilos in a month?

 

 

I don't think it's possible you did an accurate calorie count. I was on a supervised diet for a year in the Army, 2,500 calories a day, and went from 185 to 155 in a year. Later, I stayed at that weight for thirty years.

I used to follow the usenet news group, alt. fitness. There were some really knowledgeable guys (and gals) on that group. They mostly were into power lifting, but there's enough crossover from body building that they discussed that, too. The body builders have to eat a lot to build muscle, and then diet like crazy, hoping to lose more fat than muscle before a show. They all agreed that you don't dare consume less than 1300 calories a day. Less than that, you fall into starvation mode and can cause yourself serious health problems.

You have to be consuming something that you didn't count. Something on the order of 1200-1500 calories a day. Did you monitor what you drink? Even small amounts of alcohol contain a surprising amount of calories. I don't know about sodas or lattes or such. 

I could be wrong, of course. I'm having a terrible time trying to lose flab myself. After I married the second time I went up from 155 to 170. After my second wife died I've gone up to 185, but I can pin that to a two month period, two and a half years ago, when I ate lots of ice cream for about two months and just ballooned up.  Since then I've been trying to moderate my food intake and exercise more, with little effect. Part of the problem might be my age -- I'm 79, will be 80 this year. That means my testosterone levels are lower than they used to be, so I'm not building muscle. Maybe it has something to do with my failure to burn fat, too. I don't actually count calories, because I eat home-cooked Thai food (or bought at road-side stall) that my niece provides, and I don't know where I can find calorie charts for those dishes in English -- after all these years I'm still not comfortable reading Thai.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Acharn

[connda]

8 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Burning fat and gaining muscle mass due to exercise can/will increase weight.

Which is why I measure my arms, legs, neck, shoulders, calves, chest, and stomach right across the love handles.  Weight isn't my concern.  Getting the former to increase and the latter (love handles) to decrease is the goal. 

I've just gotten to the age where shedding excess fat is a necessity if you plan to live a healthy life.

Probably the best way to accurately gauge fat loss is hydrostatic body fat testing.  Can't say I've heard of it in Thailand.  Barring that, take full body pictures of yourself monthly then compare over a six month period.  If you're sticking to your program you're gonna see results. 

[simon43]

 Did you monitor what you drink? Even small amounts of alcohol contain a surprising amount of calories. I don't know about sodas or lattes or such. 

 

I don't drink alcohol since a few months ago, and I don't drink any fizzy drinks or lattes.

 

This is a typical list of all the food and drinks that I eat every day.  (I previously eat larger portions of the same).  I've eaten this type of daily food for as long as I can remember and have zero health problems, (I have regular health check-ups), look good for my age blah blah blah.

 

Breakfast:
1 black coffee, no sugar
1 fresh orange juice
3 walnuts
1 slice of bread with marmalade, no butter

 

Lunch:
1 chicken or mushroom soup
1 tangerine or slices of pomelo or water-melon
1 small pack of sunflower seeds
1 cup of ginger tea
1 small natural, unsweetened yogurt with a little honey

 

Dinner:
1 small dish of Shan noodles with fresh green vegetables
3 small cups of Indian tea
1 glass of tomato juice
A small amount of raisins and nuts

Also 1 cup of organic green tea, 1 100% fruit juice carton, plus maybe about 4 litres of water throughout the day

 

Once a week, some tinned sardines or pilchards.

 

That food list might sound insufficient for an anaemic mouse, but I attest that this is my typical food intake, and has been for many years.  I never really feel hungry, get about 8 hours of sleep every night, feel full of energy, brain feels 'clear', don't get ill (dengue accepted), 

 

At the age of almost 58, I'm a kindergarten teacher, which would definitely be a difficult job if I were not fit and active :)

 

 

[chilli42]

You are doing the right things - calorie restriction and exercise.  It's more complicated than calories in calories out.  The composition of those calories matters as well (fat, protein, carb).  Also, there are a number of studies that show steady state cardio does not have a weight loss benefit.  My knee jerk reaction would be to advise you to eliminate carbs (understanding that you will get some carbs in veggies).    Intermittent fasting might also help.  An 8,000 calorie deficit should result in a 1 Kg of fat loss.  Based on your numbers (1,000 calories a day for 30 days) you have racked up a 30,000 calorie deficit.  However, if you really are on 1,000 calories a day and have not lost a Kg then I would seek out some professional advice (Nutritionist).  ignore all of the expert advice you will get to your post.  

[dontoearth]

10 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

I checked the symptoms of this:

Symptoms of insulin resistance

One of the earliest and most noticeable symptoms of insulin resistance is weight gain, particularly around the middle.

Further symptoms include:

• Lethargy
• Hunger
• Difficulty concentrating (brain fog)
• High blood pressure is another common symptom

 

Well, I've had no weight gain from 73 Kg for as many years as I can remember

- I'm the opposite of lethargic

- I rarely feel hungry

- I can concentrate very well

- My blood pressure levels are absolutely normal (in fact rather low for my age) :)

 

Update: There is also zero history of diabetes or obesity in my family

 

But one factor which might be a cause.  I have a very low testosterone level (VERY LOW!), (generic, my father was the same).

 

Many years ago I had slow-releasing testosterone implants in both sides (maybe 20 years ago).  I have previously had testosterone injections, but my prostrate PSA levels started to increase, so I stopped that.

 

Could lack of testosterone be a contributing factor?  And if so, what is a method to increase testosterone without risk of increasing PSA?

 

 

They make a gel now in packets or pump bottle which is a lower dose you take consistently.  It is called androgel.  You have hit the nail on the head!  Without adequate testosterone you will not get much result from exercise.  They also make a pill form called Andriol that I have seen in Thailand.  You might want to do small cycle of HCG injections before you start on the testosterone.  This will jog your own testosterone production to increase.  You also might want to take a daily Saw Palmetto supplement to keep the PSA low.  Good Luck.

[simon43]

You also might want to take a daily Saw Palmetto supplement to keep the PSA low. 

 

Thanks for the advice.  I forgot to mention that I take Saw Palmetto daily, plus a multivit and some Omega 3, 6 fish oil.

[robblok]

Simon,

 

Did you check your testosterone levels... this has a major effect on the flab around your belly. I believe you mentioned something about them being low. HRT would help in that case.

 

(after screening for prostate cancer and a few other things)

[hdkane]

HRT might be in order...it makes a tremendous difference in quality of life for some people...good luck.

[simon43]

Rob, when I'm over in BKK in April, I'm going to get a testosterone level check done.  I'm pretty sure that it will be low (from my previous history), and Dr Google tells me that low testosterone can certainly lead to an increase in belly fat.

 

Can anyone recommend where to get testosterone levels checked in BKK?  Would the main hospitals offer this service? (my 'local' is Bangkok Christian Hospital on Silom Road).

Edited February 24, 2017 by simon43

[robblok]

1 hour ago, simon43 said:

Rob, when I'm over in BKK in April, I'm going to get a testosterone level check done.  I'm pretty sure that it will be low (from my previous history), and Dr Google tells me that low testosterone can certainly lead to an increase in belly fat.

 

Can anyone recommend where to get testosterone levels checked in BKK?  Would the main hospitals offer this service? (my 'local' is Bangkok Christian Hospital on Silom Road).

Most of the small clinics just send the blood to the same BKK lab for a lower price you could try that.

[Billy Bloggs]

There is a lot of different advice here, but the main points are what has been said the fat takes time to get off and the muscle needs protein to build and it is heavier, so your weigh may not change much if at all.

I had a health issue and had to lose weight, changed diet and lifestyle a bit and went from 112 to 97 Kg, was happy with that but about a month ago I increased my daily walk from 60 mins to 90 mins and started doing some dumbbell exercises 3 times a week targeting core and upper body. My weight has stayed around the 97 Kg mark for that month but it has changed markedly already.

To show your progress take body measurements once a week and keep a record, I do stomach, chest and biceps, you could also include thighs, these will show what the scales dont. One measurement that showed me straight off as I lost weight was I had to move my watch band in one this was one of the first ones to change.

[Prbkk]

For anyone interested in the question of diet/insulin resistance, it's worth a look at the BBC website story and link on the fasting high unsaturated fat diet , published today and cites/links to a paper published in CELL  . 

While this is newsworthy ( although only in mice as reported) and demonstrates the way this "reboots and kickstarts" the pancreas, it has long been the subject of discussion on diabetes.uk ( for years and years).

Foods high in unsaturated fat: salmon, sardine, avocado, almonds, walnuts, flax and others. 

The mouse trial gave diet high in unsaturated fats for 5 days ( low carb, low protein) and then a return to normal.

It's worth a read. It would appear to be a significant finding

I follow low carb diet ( around 60-80 carbs per day), since 2011.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Prbkk

[Prbkk]

15 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

I don't drink alcohol since a few months ago, and I don't drink any fizzy drinks or lattes.

 

This is a typical list of all the food and drinks that I eat every day.  (I previously eat larger portions of the same).  I've eaten this type of daily food for as long as I can remember and have zero health problems, (I have regular health check-ups), look good for my age blah blah blah.

 

Breakfast:
1 black coffee, no sugar
1 fresh orange juice
3 walnuts
1 slice of bread with marmalade, no butter

 

Lunch:
1 chicken or mushroom soup
1 tangerine or slices of pomelo or water-melon
1 small pack of sunflower seeds
1 cup of ginger tea
1 small natural, unsweetened yogurt with a little honey

 

Dinner:
1 small dish of Shan noodles with fresh green vegetables
3 small cups of Indian tea
1 glass of tomato juice
A small amount of raisins and nuts

Also 1 cup of organic green tea, 1 100% fruit juice carton, plus maybe about 4 litres of water throughout the day

 

Once a week, some tinned sardines or pilchards.

 

That food list might sound insufficient for an anaemic mouse, but I attest that this is my typical food intake, and has been for many years.  I never really feel hungry, get about 8 hours of sleep every night, feel full of energy, brain feels 'clear', don't get ill (dengue accepted), 

 

At the age of almost 58, I'm a kindergarten teacher, which would definitely be a difficult job if I were not fit and active :)

 

 

 

That is barely subsistence at under 1,000 calories; at 73kg you need close to 2,000 calories to maintain. If that's all you are eating then it would be expected to see a weight loss of 1 kg every 7-10 days, or greater.

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

 

That is barely subsistence at under 1,000 calories; at 73kg you need close to 2,000 calories to maintain. If that's all you are eating then it would be expected to see a weight loss of 1 kg every 7-10 days, or greater.

What your saying does not go for everyone.. if I eat 2000 cals i gain weight.. (fat) and I am quite muscular and real active I train a lot. There is a 20% difference between the upper and lower limit in calories for people of the same weight. The 2000 cals is for someone of average weight and an average metabolic rate. 

[Prbkk]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

What your saying does not go for everyone.. if I eat 2000 cals i gain weight.. (fat) and I am quite muscular and real active I train a lot. There is a 20% difference between the upper and lower limit in calories for people of the same weight. The 2000 cals is for someone of average weight and an average metabolic rate. 

That is true but it is not the situation of the OP: he is consuming not much more than starvation calories and yet weighs 73 kg. He must be underestimating/understating calorie intake, eg is a slice of bread really half a baguette slathered in marmalade? 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

That is true but it is not the situation of the OP: he is consuming not much more than starvation calories and yet weighs 73 kg. He must be underestimating/understating calorie intake, eg is a slice of bread really half a baguette slathered in marmalade? 

I am not that sure.. If you see me for example and see that I eat the same as a gf half my weight (and exercise more) than you know that it does not always work this way. (I do have a slow thyroid). People are always asking me why I eat so little knowing how much I work out and how much muscle I have. (and no its not drinking don't drink alcohol or almost never.. also no real soda stuff). I am not complaining because i got low body-fat, but it is frustrating at times

 

But your right what he is eating is minimal, and I hope for his sake that he is under reporting. Its the most common cause why people dont lose weight they under-report what they eat. So your right there. 

 

I was just questioning the 2000 cals.. as that is a real general advice (average weight and average metabolism). With 73 he is below average weight so he needs less. 

 

Anyway your input is good keeps the discussion alive and your points were valid.

[partington]

I agree with above.  The 2000 calories daily for a sedentary 60 year old man is a population average.  That means half the 60 year-old male population  requires less than this amount.

 

You can't apply a population average to a single person. His calorie requirement could be anywhere on the population scale and the only way to tell, for him, would be to physically measure his daily calorie burn.

Edited February 24, 2017 by partington

[YaiJung]

A glass of orange juice(not much different than a can of coke sugar-wise) in the morning is one of the worst things you can do if you are trying to lose weight.  Follow it with bread and marmalade(about the same as eating a donut) and you are asking for trouble.  This much sugar/carbs first thing in the morning will trigger a release of insulin that will ensure everything else you eat for many hours afterwards will be stored as fat. 

 

Try for a healthier breakfast of vegetables, meat, fruit(low sugar/high fiber varieties).  Not only will your body fat percentage fall, you will also likely feel much better due to getting a lot more nutrients. 

 

 

[Prbkk]

6 minutes ago, YaiJung said:

A glass of orange juice(not much different than a can of coke sugar-wise) in the morning is one of the worst things you can do if you are trying to lose weight.  Follow it with bread and marmalade(about the same as eating a donut) and you are asking for trouble.  This much sugar/carbs first thing in the morning will trigger a release of insulin that will ensure everything else you eat for many hours afterwards will be stored as fat. 

 

Try for a healthier breakfast of vegetables, meat, fruit(low sugar/high fiber varieties).  Not only will your body fat percentage fall, you will also likely feel much better due to getting a lot more nutrients. 

 

 

Yes,  I agree. I would ditch the OJ, tomato juice and juice box and subsitute with lower fructose berries or cantaloupe. Ditch the marmalade and substitute with some salmon and cream cheese or alternate with butter and marmite or avocado.

Too much carb.

[Sheryl]

It is not likely to have anything to do with insulin resistance. More likely 2 factors, both of which others have already mentioned:

 

1 - building muscle mass through exercise. To the extent that muscle is replacing fat, a big health benefit that you won't see on the scales. You should, however, see it reflected in your waist circumference which is actually the most significant indicator of health risk related to weight in men. I suggest you measure this if you havn't already and then repeat monthly. Don't expect miracles but some decrease should be evident.

 

2 - decreased metabolic rate: this is the catch 22 of dieting, your body gets used to a certain weight and calorie intake and when you diet, its initial response is to slow down metabolism in an effort to maintain the status quo. This is a survival mechanism from when our ancestors experienced periodic famines...a sort of "food scarcity alert".   The calorie intake/burn equation is still very much in effect but the "burn" side has altered. This is the biggest challenge in trying to lose weight. Exercise helps in that it forces your body to step up its burn rate while you are exercising (the muscles have to  have the glucose then and there) but in between, your body may still slip into energy-conserving mode.  Some people report success in circumventing this through intermittent fasting or intermittent calorie restriction: eat normally (within reason) several days in a row then 1 day of sharp calorie reduction then back to normal and repeat. The idea being that the calorie reduction does not go on long enough for your body to go into starvation mode. 

[dontoearth]

Another good way to try to combat metabolic rate slow down and use intermittent fasting is to do meal skips.  Try skipping breakfast as the OP was having juice and other hormone triggers that were not at all good for someone trying to diet.  Skipping supper is always good but harder as most of us look forward to a good meal at the end of the day.  Meal skipping is one way to start into intermittent fasting without the shock of trying a full fasting day.  It allows you to adjust mentally before trying to do a  big day of no eating.  I use breakfast as the skip meal.  It has worked well and I have not ever had to do a full day fast.  I also got rid of simple carbs.  It was easier than trying to go on a reduced calorie diet.  I just avoid things like bread, rice, juices, pasta and and have another serving of vegetables.  (complex carbohydrates) or meat (protein and fat)  It has helped me take off 11 kilo and feel great.  Reduced calorie diets usually don't work.  Most dieters are stuck in the same lack of progress that the OP reports.  Some get a good weight loss at the beginning and then plateau.  Others get the weight loss and then start into a gain period again.  And the original OP didn't get any results.  Yet another failure of the reduced calorie diet program.

[simon43]

He must be underestimating/understating calorie intake, eg is a slice of bread really half a baguette slathered in marmalade? 

 

I understand your disbelieve at my comments, but ask yourself this 'If this really is a starvation diet, why have I managed to live all of my 58 years on such a diet (or close to it), without any health concerns etc?'

 

Sometimes, I'll only eat (drink) liquid food, such as fresh juice, soups, green tea, ginger tea for perhaps a week.  I feel no side effects, weakness, faint etc.  Everyone's body is different and my body is happy :)

 

The problem with the flab around my middle is probably a combination of my age, gender, low testosterone level and drinking beer last year (and I've stopped that!)

 

Rob is correct.  2,000 calories might be OK for some people, but it is definitely not OK for me and my metabolism.  It never has been.

 

Oh, my slice of bread is definitely a small slice of bread with a little marmalade :)  I have been honest with myself when I listed what I eat.

[simon43]

And the original OP didn't get any results.  Yet another failure of the reduced calorie diet program

 

I'm only 1 month in, so I think it is much too early to say that the diet has failed.

 

Sheryl is correct that I'm probably building up muscle and so my weight is not changing.  Indeed, if I look at myself in the mirror, my man-boobs (modest size) are firming up into chest muscle and I can definitely see a reduction in the fat around my middle.

 

I'm also trying to improve my posture and strength of my ab muscles by sucking in my stomach.

 

But in general, I can say that although my regular calorie intake for many years may appear very low (when compared to other men of my age etc), it is what my body is happy with.  I never knowingly reduced my calorie intake - it has always been around 1,200 calories a day until recently when I've reduced that by cutting out the beer, rice etc.

 

I don't feel any side-effects of a low-calorie diet (so no hunger pains, no depression, no irritability, no brain confusion, no lethargy, no weakness etc etc)

 

YMMV :)

[simon43]

Quote

 

... and subsitute with lower fructose berries
 

 

 

Where on earth do I find those in Myanmar?  

 

To explain further, I am rather limited in my choice of foods, because of the lack of choice in the supermarket in Naypyidaw).  Fresh vegetables abound, but often of rather low quality.  'Western' style foods are limited in availability or costly.

 

Example is muesli.  I can buy imported brands, (sorry, a choice of 1 brand).  It costs about 300 baht for a small packet that will last me 2 days).  There is no fresh fish (I'm in the middle of the country), but Dr Google tells me that canned sardines and/or pilchards, not tuna, is a healthy alternative.

 

On the subject of fasting, I think I might try this, say 1 day in 7 to start with. See if it helps and see if I faint from lack of food :)

Edited February 25, 2017 by simon43

[chilli42]

Rob, when I'm over in BKK in April, I'm going to get a testosterone level check done.  I'm pretty sure that it will be low (from my previous history), and Dr Google tells me that low testosterone can certainly lead to an increase in belly fat.
 
Can anyone recommend where to get testosterone levels checked in BKK?  Would the main hospitals offer this service? (my 'local' is Bangkok Christian Hospital on Silom Road).

Can get it done at any hospital. Be sure to get them to test your free testosterone. This is the testosterone available to your body as much testosterone gets bound up in SBH and becomes useless.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

On the subject of fasting, I think I might try this, say 1 day in 7 to start with. See if it helps and see if I faint from lack of food :)

 

Shoud nto be a total fast, that indeed may lead to issues with blood sugar. Secret is to sip very watered down unsweetened fruit juice throughout the day, at least every 2-3 hours while awake, to stabilize you blood sugar. If you can get stevia tablets, taking one in the morning also helps a lot.

 

Adding psyllium ot the watered down fruit juice will create fullness in the stomach which helps avert hunger pangs. And you can add say one piece of fruit or steamed vegetables at some point, just kas long as you keep the total intake  to only a couple hundred calories.

 

If you get food cravings, just firmly say to yourself "it's just one day, I can have that tomorrow".

 

Usually need to have at least 2 days a week to see the effects - spaced out with 2-3 eating normally days in between so as to keep your metabolism in normal mode.

 

Being as active as you can on the fast days is also important. Will distract your mind from food and also further stimulate your body to maintain normal metabolic rate.

 

 

[tropo]

On 2/23/2017 at 7:06 PM, Formaleins said:

Charlie H is correct, as you burn fat you replace it with muscle, muscle weighs more than fat so initially you could actually see weight gain. Stick with it, it will take more than a month to loose the stubborn fat around the belly and love handles, after all, it probably took years for you to get it in the first place.

 

In actual fact you're not really putting on much extra muscle after training for a month. What you're doing is packing your existing muscles with water and carbs, which makes them stronger with more endurance. Of course, that's extra weight packed inside the muscles. That could easily be an extra 2kg of body weight for a 73kg male doing a lot of exercise for a month. This could mean the OP has actually lost 2kg of fat over the month, which is a good result. Extra muscular weight will virtually cease after the first couple of months once the person has adapted to the exercise. 

[mommysboy]

After years of thinking about it, mainly because of overweight kith and kin, I'm coming to the conclusion that most people are simply destined to be bigger than they would prefer to be.  Sustained weight loss is very difficult to achieve, perhaps because there is so much availability of food, and not sufficient collective enthusiasm to truly deal with the problem.

 

I am still skinny at 55 years old.  Even if I stuff my face for a couple of months, getting through multiple bars of chocolate and packs of digestive biccies, then I still won't put on more than 3 kilos- from 70-73 kg.  And as soon as I get bored of over eating the weight slides off. Others have the exact opposite effect.

 

It's not laziness, or lack of will power: it's just that most people retain that genetic disposition to carry on eating and their bodies still operate on conserving as much energy as possible, since not long ago in our history food might be scarce.

 

My advice is give up dieting, just enjoy your hearty appetite while you can because that is all there is left: attractiveness is for the young, as is true fitness.  Yes it will end up with serious consequences, but I haven't known any old person not to get unwell and die.  I would rather keel over from a heart attack than go bonkers, which is often the price of having a fit body.

Edited February 25, 2017 by mommysboy