Conscript ‘beaten to death’ at southern military base

[Baerboxer]

12 hours ago, baboon said:

But you must be all for the military higher ups being charged for dereliction of duty leading to the deaths of underlings, leading to impeachment and jail? Those at the top who may not have actually been there are just as responsible, correct?

 

The OP mentions 3 deaths since 2011. Whilst this is unacceptable in any military, and those responsible should be punished according to law, it's hardly a mass crime is it now?

 

There have been deaths in the British army in recent times. Some were punished (remember Captain Amber of the Light Infantry?) and some remain the subject of inquiries by the families unhappy with the official reports. Are you suggesting that the British General staff should be charged with dereliction of duty too? 

 

Sorry to non British people, I am only familiar with events like this in the British Military.

 

Bullying, hazing, etc of new recruits, is a problem in many military around the world. Institutionalized or not it should be punished and not covered up. 

[Briggsy]

Speak to any Thai male who has done the 2 years' conscription and they will have frightening tales of beatings handed out to those who disobey orders.

 

The beatings are often carried out in front of new recruits to show them what happens when rules are broken and orders disobeyed. A familiar story is the amphetamine addict not being able to handle the withdrawal, trying to desert and not succeeding.

[uchibenkei]

Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?

Jessup: I did the job that—-

Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?!!

Jessup: YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID!!

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, baboon said:

They aren't running the country and sermonizing about corruption and obeying the law. The army is. Aren't you for legal proceedings that could lead to impeachment at the very top for gross dereliction of duty?

 

I support justice, law and order - applied fairly and equally to all. 

 

The previous government also sermonized about corruption, some nice photo ops, and wanted people to obey laws which they thought didn't apply to themselves too. The fractious somewhat segmented application of the judicial process here is different to our home countries.

 

The current government, whilst former military commanders, are not serving officers I think. So they are not the head of the armed forces,

 

Or do you think the British PM, Defense Minister and General staff should be impeached for dereliction of duty over Deepcut, and other cases in the UK? Should the PM and Home Secretary be held responsible for violations of police officers?

 

 

 

 

[baboon]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I support justice, law and order - applied fairly and equally to all. 

 

The previous government also sermonized about corruption, some nice photo ops, and wanted people to obey laws which they thought didn't apply to themselves too. The fractious somewhat segmented application of the judicial process here is different to our home countries.

 

The current government, whilst former military commanders, are not serving officers I think. So they are not the head of the armed forces,

 

Or do you think the British PM, Defense Minister and General staff should be impeached for dereliction of duty over Deepcut, and other cases in the UK? Should the PM and Home Secretary be held responsible for violations of police officers?

 

 

 

 

Ah, '...but the previous government'. The previous government are just that; previous. Nor did they seize power via a coup and promise to stamp out corruption.

 

Why does it matter whether or not the current junta are serving officers? They are still part of the same outfit, the army takes its orders from them and are supposedly overseeing corruption and criminal matters. I ask you again: Are  you for legal proceedings that could lead to impeachment at the very top for gross dereliction of duty?

[Eric Loh]

15 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I support justice, law and order - applied fairly and equally to all. 

 

Just love your hypocrisy BB.  What a bomber of an opening statement as if you seriously believed that coups are justifiable and lawful. Take a bow. 

[Baerboxer]

Just now, baboon said:

Ah, '...but the previous government'. The previous government are just that; previous. Nor did they seize power via a coup and promise to stamp out corruption.

 

Why does it matter whether or not the current junta are serving officers? They are still part of the same outfit, the army takes its orders from them and are supposedly overseeing corruption and criminal matters. I ask you again: Are  you for legal proceedings that could lead to impeachment at the very top for gross dereliction of duty?

 

Disappointing. "The let's forget history and pretend everything was wonderful before" argument.

 

I believe the law should be applied to all fairly, without favor or bias. The previous government, the one you don't want to mention, were also promising to stamp out corruption, whilst claiming there was none in their government. How ironic.

 

So, I ask you again, are you suggesting that PM, Defense Ministers, as well as military General Staff, should be held responsible and prosecuted in such cases?

 

 

[elgordo38]

2 hours ago, Chicken George said:

is this what awAits my two boys? Ive seen the videos on youtube showing conscrips being beaten too. Seems to be the Thai way. What does Mr. Prayut have to say about this?

Damn little he is to busy exercising writing songs and giving Friday night speeches. 

[elgordo38]

Its bad enough when the rebels there kill but for the army to kill their own it unacceptable. It would be interesting to follow any follow up done by the army but methinks there will be none. 

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Just love your hypocrisy BB.  What a bomber of an opening statement as if you seriously believed that coups are justifiable and lawful. Take a bow. 

 

Stop being so naive. If you've read, and understood many of my posts, on many threads, you would know that my position on law is as I say.

As for coups, don't like them. But neither do I like an openly, arrogantly so, corrupt government openly led by a convicted career criminal and wanted fraudster.

 

This post isn't political. It's about the illegal killing of a conscript by people who should be punished. It becomes political when some posters want to try and turn it into a chance to bash the government.

 

 

[Golden Triangle]

Jeez, and I thought my basic training was tough back in 69, actually it was tough but they didn't kill anyone.

 

 

[baboon]

42 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Disappointing. "The let's forget history and pretend everything was wonderful before" argument.

 

I believe the law should be applied to all fairly, without favor or bias. The previous government, the one you don't want to mention, were also promising to stamp out corruption, whilst claiming there was none in their government. How ironic.

 

So, I ask you again, are you suggesting that PM, Defense Ministers, as well as military General Staff, should be held responsible and prosecuted in such cases?

 

 

No, the 'let's focus on this story in the here and now' argument.

 

The previous government, the one I didn't want to mention, aren't running the country. This story has nothing to do with them. At all. End of. So why mention them? And you complain about posters trying to make it political? 

 

"So, I ask you again, are you suggesting that PM, Defense Ministers, as well as military General Staff, should be held responsible and prosecuted in such cases?"

 

Held responsible and prosecuted? Yes, if legally accountable to the courts, under the laws which were applicable at the time, and not to any military junta. Why, though? What has the UK to do with any of this?

 

'Boxer, you're a good bloke. But come on, in your heart of hearts you must be aware you are engaging in nothing more than a turd polishing exercise in this case.

Edited April 2, 2017 by baboon

[gdgbb]

2 hours ago, lamecn said:

You can kill a living being, but you can't kill the immortal soul. We are in a culture where Karma is something you can't run away from, still Thai people at almost all levels don't seem to care about lives. If Karma is for real I can understand all the suffering.

Karma isn't anymore real than "the immortal soul" and is just a convenient human interpretation of 'coincidence'.

Edited April 2, 2017 by gdgbb

[onemorechang]

What i don't get is in the normal world

people get a slap for wrong doing , big deal

get over it, move on.

But here people get a slap for wrong doing,  then get 50-100 more

slaps,  its like there is some brain disorder in Thailand,

that turns people into murderous psychopaths !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The guy was trained to fight for his country,   then his country killed him

a serious laps by the officers in charge to let this happen.

 

RIP  young man

 

 

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, baboon said:

No, the 'let's focus on this story in the here and now' argument.

 

The previous government, the one I didn't want to mention, aren't running the country. This story has nothing to do with them. At all. End of. And you complain about posters trying to make it political? 

 

"So, I ask you again, are you suggesting that PM, Defense Ministers, as well as military General Staff, should be held responsible and prosecuted in such cases?"

 

Held responsible and prosecuted? Yes, if legally accountable to the courts and not a military junta. Why, though? What has the UK to do with any of this?

 

'Boxer, you're a good bloke. But come on, in your heart of hearts you must be aware you are engaging in nothing more than a turd polishing exercise in this case.

 

Sadly, unlawful punishments, including fatal beatings happen in the military. All should be subject to investigation and those responsible punished according to the law. Military discipline is one thing. Illegal abuse of authority is another.

 

I use Britain as an example because I know of cases there. The point is that even in a more, shall we say, robust and proven system, members of the government and military general staff are not held responsible for the conduct of every single member of the armed forces. Why then should Thailand apply such doctrine in its laws? 

 

The issue is how the legal system here will investigate and deal with this particular case. 

 

Trying to use this case to suggest that the current non elected government, or an elected one for that matter, should be held responsible for the actions of individual military personnel, at all levels, doesn't make sense. If this was institutionalized resulting in multiple deaths per year, then it might make sense to hold the Chief of Staff responsible. But 3 deaths in 6 years? Sad for the families and the guilty should be punished. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[baboon]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Sadly, unlawful punishments, including fatal beatings happen in the military. All should be subject to investigation and those responsible punished according to the law. Military discipline is one thing. Illegal abuse of authority is another.

 

I use Britain as an example because I know of cases there. The point is that even in a more, shall we say, robust and proven system, members of the government and military general staff are not held responsible for the conduct of every single member of the armed forces. Why then should Thailand apply such doctrine in its laws? 

 

The issue is how the legal system here will investigate and deal with this particular case. 

 

Trying to use this case to suggest that the current non elected government, or an elected one for that matter, should be held responsible for the actions of individual military personnel, at all levels, doesn't make sense. If this was institutionalized resulting in multiple deaths per year, then it might make sense to hold the Chief of Staff responsible. But 3 deaths in 6 years? Sad for the families and the guilty should be punished. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since you wrote that post, I have edited mine a couple of times. In the interests of fairness I just want to tell you in case you want to make any alterations to yours above.

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, baboon said:

Since you wrote that post, I have edited mine a couple of times. In the interests of fairness I just want to tell you in case you want to make any alterations to yours above.

 

Thanks but I can't see the edits. May I ask what they were please?

[baboon]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Thanks but I can't see the edits. May I ask what they were please?

Just have a reread of my post 42. I didn't alter much and you will probably leave your reply as is, but I just wanted to notify you.

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

This post isn't political. It's about the illegal killing of a conscript by people who should be punished. It becomes political when some posters want to try and turn it into a chance to bash the government.

 

 

3+ years ago when Prayut was still the army chief, he banned brutal punishment in the barracks. Now he is the junta PM and the military is in his line of command, it is political and above all the moral responsibility to see that justice is prevailed. We expect him as the top man in the country to speak sternly and reprimand and insist on an internal investigation. Instead we have his deputy Prawit making statement to defend the military as in the case of the young activist. The social media bashed the government for their non action and rightfully we equally condemn the junta for not doing more.    

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

3+ years ago when Prayut was still the army chief, he banned brutal punishment in the barracks. Now he is the junta PM and the military is in his line of command, it is political and above all the moral responsibility to see that justice is prevailed. We expect him as the top man in the country to speak sternly and reprimand and insist on an internal investigation. Instead we have his deputy Prawit making statement to defend the military as in the case of the young activist. The social media bashed the government for their non action and rightfully we equally condemn the junta for not doing more.    

 

'we', are you now taking the line of speaking on behalf of all?

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

'we', are you now taking the line of speaking on behalf of all?

You right. I should have said that all except Score condemn the brutal treatment of conscripts and activist. The junta will be pleased with your support. Medal on the way. 

[nausea]

I can see why Mr. Sirawith and Mr. Netiwit might be a tad concerned.

[Baerboxer]

48 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

3+ years ago when Prayut was still the army chief, he banned brutal punishment in the barracks. Now he is the junta PM and the military is in his line of command, it is political and above all the moral responsibility to see that justice is prevailed. We expect him as the top man in the country to speak sternly and reprimand and insist on an internal investigation. Instead we have his deputy Prawit making statement to defend the military as in the case of the young activist. The social media bashed the government for their non action and rightfully we equally condemn the junta for not doing more.    

 

Let's stick to this case and keep on topic Eric. 

 

The government should condemn such actions and insist a full inquiry is held and those responsible are brought to justice. That, if like my country, will involve an investigation and court martial. Military prisons, known as the Glasshouse in the UK are not the best place to be incarcerated. 

 

 

[jesimps]

I was in the British army for 12 years and although training was tough, never once witnessed physical violence against our own side. With the correct training regime it isn't necessary.

Only Mickey Mouse armies resort to it. What's the point in doing the enemy's job for them?

 

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, jesimps said:

I was in the British army for 12 years and although training was tough, never once witnessed physical violence against our own side. With the correct training regime it isn't necessary.

Only Mickey Mouse armies resort to it. What's the point in doing the enemy's job for them?

 

 

It's 19th & 18th century thinking, cat-o-nine tails and the like. Some places simply haven't caught up!

 

There have been well reported cases in the British army. Some have resulted in dismissals and / or other punishments. (Captain Amber and the Light Infantry training depot for instance). Others like Deepcut are not resolved to the satisfaction of the families.

 

But, the British Military police, and AGC are proactive. Not sure about here or other militaries.

 

 

[lungnorm]

And these <deleted> are running the country. What a joke a very sad joke.

[Eric Loh]

38 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Let's stick to this case and keep on topic Eric. 

 

The government should condemn such actions and insist a full inquiry is held and those responsible are brought to justice. That, if like my country, will involve an investigation and court martial. Military prisons, known as the Glasshouse in the UK are not the best place to be incarcerated. 

 

 

In my country, it will be brought up in Parliment and necessitate the government to give an appropriate answer. Dont expect rubber stamp NLA to bring this up.

 

Normally it leads to the government to conduct an internal inquiry by the

defence ministry and aided by the police who will report to the coroner on cause of death. Don't expect this to happen too. Cover up and intimidating the witnesses or accusers are the more likely outcome of junta government.

[JAG]

20 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

In my country, it will be brought up in Parliment and necessitate the government to give an appropriate answer. Dont expect rubber stamp NLA to bring this up.

 

Normally it leads to the government to conduct an internal inquiry by the

defence ministry and aided by the police who will report to the coroner on cause of death. Don't expect this to happen too. Cover up and intimidating the witnesses or accusers are the more likely outcome of junta government.

Off topic, but do they have coroners, courts and inquests here? I just wonder who and how they decide cause of death (other than by getting a senior plod to point at the body of course...)

Edited April 2, 2017 by JAG

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

You right. I should have said that all except Score condemn the brutal treatment of conscripts and activist. The junta will be pleased with your support. Medal on the way. 

 

And again you make a conveniently opportunistic statement with no basis, in fact lies.

 

Nowhere have I said anything remotely / with any words that could be construed in any way to mean that I don't condemn the brutal treatment of conscripts and activists. 

 

In fact as a conscript myself I was given unfair brutal treatment and have never forgotten and never will.

 

Your nothing but a paid opportunist, people like you who write lies have no morals whatever. 

[Golden Triangle]

Surely vicarious responsibility is at play here ? All those in the chain of command are responsible for the care and well being of those placed under their command, all the way to the top.

 

I to served 12 years with what is undeniably the best army in the world, I have been subject to abuse as a prisoner in the care of 3rd Battalion Light Infantry whilst in Germany for 21 days.

 

But I wasn't beaten, it was more in your head stuff, doubling everywhere you went, only allowed 2 ciggies a day, doing menial jobs like sweeping the parade square, bulling the RSMs boots, I could go on but won't.

 

An inquiry should be launched.