United passenger launches legal action over forceful removal

[Panda13]

 

Just in .. man stung by a scorpion on a United flight. Social media is gonna have ball with this one.

 

 

[Panda13]

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

Thanks but nonsense imo. This is a domestic problem, and only in the USA, not in other countries with deregulated airlines.

sent using Tapatalk
 

Then why inquire if you already have all the answers? I Only spent 32 years in the airline biz, so what could I possibly know?

 

This extreme type of event rarely happens even in the USA. By NO means am I defending the airline industry for this practice nor United for its actions, but usually they get the volunteers they need in these situations by offering miles, food, hotel, upgrade, travel credir and even sometimes cash and keep sweetening the offer until the necessary number bite.

 

One more nonsense FYI...the world's 3 largest air carriers by fleet size (and probably passengers carried) are all US carriers. American, Delta and United...so the odds of this happening is more likely to be heard about on these huge global airlines rather than Puddle Jump Airways.

 

 

[thaihome]

37 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Then why inquire if you already have all the answers? I Only spent 32 years in the airline biz, so what could I possibly know?

 

This extreme type of event rarely happens even in the USA. By NO means am I defending the airline industry for this practice nor United for its actions, but usually they get the volunteers they need in these situations by offering miles, food, hotel, upgrade, travel credir and even sometimes cash and keep sweetening the offer until the necessary number bite.

 

One more nonsense FYI...the world's 3 largest air carriers by fleet size (and probably passengers carried) are all US carriers. American, Delta and United...so the odds of this happening is more likely to be heard about on these huge global airlines rather than Puddle Jump Airways.

 

 

Actually, if you read the analysis of the impacts to competition due to the mergers of United/Contential and Delta/US AIR compounded by the unrestrained and unsupervised power given to low level employees (both corporate and government, i.e. TSA, airport security ) under the guise of security and safety since 9/11 the alignment of the Swiss cheese holes for this particular incident was inevitable. 

 

Certainly in your alleged 32 years in the aviation industry you must have noticed this. Unless of course you are one those that has taken full advantage of the power over paying customers given to you by both corporate culture and government regulations in the last 16 or so years.

 

TH 

Edited April 14, 2017 by thaihome

[mommysboy]

On 13/04/2017 at 0:47 PM, dick dasterdly said:

You think the victim behaved this way because he was thinking about a future court case?!

 

I disagree entirely.  We all react differently to fear/injury/stress etc.

I think his formative years in Vietnam were a factor in the way he initially reacted.  Of course having received the injury he went in to shock.  Mainly ghosts from the past I think.

[mommysboy]

12 hours ago, Dipterocarp said:

"United Airlines is Innocent"

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/united-airlines-is-innocent/ar-BBzJ8Te

 

Social media outrage is uniformly against the carrier, which was just trying to enforce its's routine policies. where the real anger should be against the Police, or so-called Chicago Aviation who caused the violence due to poor handling of the situation.

Generally, I agree.  But the airline was at fault for causing the situation.  It may be breaking aviation rules.  And certainly everyone has criticized their handling.

 

But the third security officer seems to be the main villain in all of this.

[Flustered]

The funny thing is that at the end of the day, it does not matter if Dr Dao was in the wrong. United will pay the price of public opinion and it will cost them millions in compensation and over a billion in the drop in share value, all for the sake of them taking of  "our employees are more important than paying passengers".

 

Any of us who have regularly traveled on domestic American flights know full well the way we are treated by the gate crew...with absolute contempt.

 

This will be a turning chapter in the way American domestic flights behave towards their paying passengers.

[stevenl]

7 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Then why inquire if you already have all the answers? I Only spent 32 years in the airline biz, so what could I possibly know?

 

This extreme type of event rarely happens even in the USA. By NO means am I defending the airline industry for this practice nor United for its actions, but usually they get the volunteers they need in these situations by offering miles, food, hotel, upgrade, travel credir and even sometimes cash and keep sweetening the offer until the necessary number bite.

 

One more nonsense FYI...the world's 3 largest air carriers by fleet size (and probably passengers carried) are all US carriers. American, Delta and United...so the odds of this happening is more likely to be heard about on these huge global airlines rather than Puddle Jump Airways.

 

 

I don't have the answers, just think your is not correct.

 

The rest of your post is about 'this event', which as you know has nothing to do with overbooking, therefore nothing to do with my question as well.

 

But thanks for you answer.

[daveAustin]

As despicable as this whole incident is, United have done Mr Dao a big favour here. A bit of discomfort in exchange for never having to work again. That said, I hope United goes under and that prat of a CEO goes down with it.

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

I don't have the answers, just think your is not correct.

 

The rest of your post is about 'this event', which as you know has nothing to do with overbooking, therefore nothing to do with my question as well.

 

But thanks for you answer.

OK overbooking is a business practice to maximize profit by departing with the fewest number of empty seats, due to the fact that there is an historic no-show factor somewhere between 5-10%. Don't know about other countries carriers, but true in the USA. They overbook in anticipation of covering the no-shows and increasing revenue by departing full or as close to full as possible. Usually works, but obviously not always...especially when repositioning crew members to cover other flights for myriad reasons...bad weather, illness, mechanical problems, crew rest and work rule legalities and so on.

[Skeptic7]

10 hours ago, thaihome said:

Actually, if you read the analysis of the impacts to competition due to the mergers of United/Contential and Delta/US AIR compounded by the unrestrained and unsupervised power given to low level employees (both corporate and government, i.e. TSA, airport security ) under the guise of security and safety since 9/11 the alignment of the Swiss cheese holes for this particular incident was inevitable. 

 

Certainly in your alleged 32 years in the aviation industry you must have noticed this. Unless of course you are one those that has taken full advantage of the power over paying customers given to you by both corporate culture and government regulations in the last 16 or so years.

 

TH 

For starters, Delta merged with NWA (Northwest Airlines) not USAir. As for the remainder of your almost nonsensical post...whilst it may be true that low level government employees have gained extraordinary power and control, it is absolutely not the case for crews and other employee groups. Airline unions have lost much of their clout over the years as corporate favoring bankruptcy judges saw to that.

 

Also, market forces determine the ticket prices in a deregulated industry. After most US carriers filed bankruptcy years ago, they were able to gut the unions, slash wages and work rules and get much more productively with way fewer employees. Now oil prices are low again and after years of losses, the airlines are raking it in.

 

BTW...overbooking is to maximize profit. See above post for an actual explanation on why it's done. As previously stated, I don't condone it or condemn it and certainly don't condone how this passenger was treated.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Skeptic7

[billd766]

10 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I think his formative years in Vietnam were a factor in the way he initially reacted.  Of course having received the injury he went in to shock.  Mainly ghosts from the past I think.

 

I believe that I have a problem.

 

The problem is that for some reason I cannot read peoples minds, certainly from thousands of km away and I have no idea what they think.

 

You seem to be able to do this. Can you pass the secret of how to do it on to me please?

Edited April 15, 2017 by billd766
edited for bad spelling AFTER I have checked and posted it.

[thaihome]

44 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

For starters, Delta merged with NWA (Northwest Airlines) not USAir. As for the remainder of your almost nonsensical post...whilst it may be true that low level government employees have gained extraordinary power and control, it is absolutely not the case for crews and other employee groups. Airline unions have lost much of their clout over the years as corporate favoring bankruptcy judges saw to that.

 

Also, market forces determine the ticket prices in a deregulated industry. After most US carriers filed bankruptcy years ago, they were able to gut the unions, slash wages and work rules and get much more productively with way fewer employees. Now oil prices are low again and after years of losses, the airlines are raking it in.

 

BTW...overbooking is to maximize profit. See above post for an actual explanation on why it's done. As previously stated, I don't condone it or condemn it and certainly don't condone how this passenger was treated.

I agree that airline employees have lost their clout with their employers,  maybe that explains the well documented hostile treatment of their customers. Do a Google search on " airline staff abuse of power".

 

In all fairness,  airline staff face the same issues as law enforcement,  the vast majority are hard working and pleasant in their dealings with the public, but there is a notable minority that are not well inclined to treat passengers as individual  human beings and abuse their power over the paying public because they can without repercussions.  That minority ruins the reputation for the all of them. Major airline management seems unwilling to deal with the misbehaving minority and the initial reaction of the United CEO with his knee jerk attack on Dr, Dao as a "belligerent" passenger shows that.

 

It just amazes me that not one person in this whole scenario ever questioned if trying to bully a 69 old man off the airplane was the right thing going to do.

 

By the way, thanks for the correction on the Delta merger, I did confuse it with the American/USAir merger.

TH 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by thaihome

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I believe that I have a problem.

 

The problem is that for some reason I cannot read peoples minds, certainly from thousands of km away and I have no idea what they think.

 

You seem to be able to do this. Can you pass the secret of how to do it on to me please?

 

Eh! What brought this on?

 

Yes you seem to have a problem: hang on I'll use my famed powers:  Ah yes!  possibly got out of bed the wrong side!

 

Just speculating as to why he reacted in the way he did.  You see he comes from Vietnam.  I imagine being dragged off by a uniformed thug in his early days was tantamount to torture followed by death.  Hence, the emotional trauma.  And possibly why he pleaded "Just kill me".

Edited April 15, 2017 by mommysboy

[55Jay]

On 4/13/2017 at 3:06 PM, koo said:

Oh, United again.  They really seem to not know how to handle luggage, but now it spreads to not knowing how to handle passengers as well.

 

This happened 2009:

 

3 videos were made, going viral, before United finally admitted they screwed up. What a PR mess  :-(

 

 

EDIT: Actually Dave Carroll has commented also on this new incident - he was asked to write another song, but he will probably not. However, he gives a good insight of what PR in companies should be and how it seem to be hit and miss with United.  See it here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQz8qqioCt8

 

Thanks for that.  Never heard of him.  Watched the United Breaks Guitars, and as we all know with Youtube, that leads to another and another and I finally landed on one where he's giving a really cogent talk at the Columbia School of Business.  Interesting guy as is what he's achieved. 

[55Jay]

United Airlines Customer Complaint and Legal Department.    If you have any doubt, passengers are the Moles.

 

 

[kunfish]

 
There's a guy who was probably thinking to him self how he is going to get rich out of this while being dragged out of the plane, and it did happened in the best place
on earth to get compensations, the  litigious center of the world,
the  US of A.....
 

Sometimes you need lawsuits that pay out big awards to get companies to notice.

People bring up the McDonalds coffee story as frivolous. The eldery woman bought coffee that was at 100C boiling. She had surgery from scalding. She only first asked for money for surgery. McDonalds refused then she sued.

For some reason, McD coffee was too hot for a reason. Second, they blew her off.

United has a BAD policy for their process to eject people. You are on a plane and get ejected. Then some shitty security police, what do you expect.

A Vietnam-American said that both sides were at fault. Okay, this was YouTube comment. Anyway, they guy ejected was a bit of a drama queen and did start a fight. But, hell, I might have done the same thing, I'm ALREADY seated and now booted?

Okay, again, I understand, okay, shit happens, you get ejected.

So, United was poor in its communication. Also, they should have a policy for ejections as well. Not just bring in Joe Thug security.

It's as a terrible thing to have happen, BUT, BUT, its incidents and lawsuits that bring attention to crap like this.

Dude, the guy was freaking injured and lost teeth, concussion. And sinus injury. You would not sue?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

Truely horrifying episode. What gets me is that so many seem to think it OK to physically remove someone against their will who had done no wrong. Do you not see how uncivilised that was? 

 

Airlines often overbook to compensate for no shows (with flexible tickets particularly) If it goes pear shaped, there is a Dutch auction BEFORE boarding. 

 

The airline ground staff screwed up by letting PAX on the aircraft.

 

A smart captain would have handled things differently and with good humour. Just explain the issue over the PA and say the aircraft will not depart until the required number of people accept an increasing amount of compensation. 1000 USD plus upgrade to first on next flight and airport hotel accommodation. Total 5k USD? Peanuts.

[mommysboy]

What gets me is that some people think that the captain's undoubted authority to order the removal any passenger vindicates or exonerates him and everyone else for the whole disgraceful episode.  It ruddy well doesn't!

 

I would also say that it is not at all clear that the captain did authorise removal.  Since the plane was fully accessible to law enforcement, the captain'likely no longer had the special powers usually accorded him.

 

(Note: it does bother me that the passenger defied an order to leave. The time to challenge was after he'd left.  This does not excuse what happened before, during, and afterwards.)

Edited April 15, 2017 by mommysboy
amendment

[Scott]

A post with no source provided has been removed along with replies.  

 

[ballzafire]

Excuse me if this has already been suggested somewhere in this thread but, why isn't there a policy of announcing to the passengers if there is anyone who would WANT to give up their seat for twice or three times what they paid for it?

They could simply do a quick walk thru of the plane and, if no one raises their hand, they could then announce that they are going to pick a seat randomly, using, say, an app on their phone designed specifically for this purpose (easy to create).

This way, everyone's rights are protected (provided of course, they read the fine print when they purchased their ticket that this might be a possibility...) and the airline and security personnel can do their job without overreaching their authority.

Just a thought.

Edited April 15, 2017 by ballzafire

[Katia]

1 hour ago, ballzafire said:

Excuse me if this has already been suggested somewhere in this thread but, why isn't there a policy of announcing to the passengers if there is anyone who would WANT to give up their seat for twice or three times what they paid for it?

They could simply do a quick walk thru of the plane and, if no one raises their hand, they could then announce that they are going to pick a seat randomly, using, say, an app on their phone designed specifically for this purpose (easy to create).

This way, everyone's rights are protected (provided of course, they read the fine print when they purchased their ticket that this might be a possibility...) and the airline and security personnel can do their job without overreaching their authority.

Just a thought.

That's what they DID do, at least according to my understanding.  No one wanted to volunteer to get bumped, so they started randomly (or allegedly randomly, or whatever) choosing people.  He was one of those.

 

[ddavidovsky]

The movie 'The Fortune Cookie' comes to mind.

 

From what I have seen, his injuries were inadvertently received as he was being lawfully removed from the plane, and were a direct result of his deliberate and unrelenting refusal to comply first with instructions from flight staff, then with instructions from security personnel. He should have got off like a responsible adult rather than selfishly disrupting the flight, and taken up any grievance legally thereafter.

 

He really doesn't have any leg to stand on but his lawyers know he will get a settlement from the airline as they are being crucified by rabid social media activists.

[anon4546543]

1 minute ago, ddavidovsky said:

The movie 'The Fortune Cookie' comes to mind.

 

From what I have seen, his injuries were inadvertently received as he was being lawfully removed from the plane, and were a direct result of his deliberate and unrelenting refusal to comply first with instructions from flight staff, then with instructions from security personnel. He should have got off like a responsible adult rather than selfishly disrupting the flight, and taken up any grievance legally thereafter.

 

He really doesn't have any leg to stand on but his lawyers know he will get a settlement from the airline as they are being crucified by rabid social media activists.

You have to be joking. He paid for and received a ticket, a seat and an aircraft boarding pass. Then some minions from another airline demanded this 69 year old man be thrown off the aircraft. Then set on by thugs. What part of a democratic country do you come from. I hope he has a huge success in the law courts, the small man in the moral right against corporate, state and employee thugs. The employees of this so called company should be real proud of themselves, and the state thugs that administered injuries to him are the same as most dumb state thugs in the US.

[ddavidovsky]

1 minute ago, spiderorchid said:

You have to be joking. He paid for and received a ticket, a seat and an aircraft boarding pass. Then some minions from another airline demanded this 69 year old man be thrown off the aircraft. Then set on by thugs. What part of a democratic country do you come from. I hope he has a huge success in the law courts, the small man in the moral right against corporate, state and employee thugs. The employees of this so called company should be real proud of themselves, and the state thugs that administered injuries to him are the same as most dumb state thugs in the US.

Since you ask, I'm from Yorkshire, which has been democratic for a good deal longer than the land of Dr Dao's origin.

 

Life is unfair sometimes. Boo hoo. Mature, socially responsible people know how to deal with it. This idiot opted for the childish, petulant, selfish approach - and got what he deserved. I was going to say he got what he asked for, but he actually asked to be killed, so he got off lightly. Now he's going to be set for life on account of his ill-gotten gains. This kind of behaviour shouldn't be condoned. It will only encourage tantrums and other disruptive behaviour on planes (and in society generally). No, that isn't a good thing. There are many situations where self-discipline is appropriate.

 

[anon4546543]

13 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Since you ask, I'm from Yorkshire, which has been democratic for a good deal longer than the land of Dr Dao's origin.

 

Life is unfair sometimes. Boo hoo. Mature, socially responsible people know how to deal with it. This idiot opted for the childish, petulant, selfish approach - and got what he deserved. I was going to say he got what he asked for, but he actually asked to be killed, so he got off lightly. Now he's going to be set for life on account of his ill-gotten gains. This kind of behaviour shouldn't be condoned. It will only encourage tantrums and other disruptive behaviour on planes (and in society generally). No, that isn't a good thing. There are many situations where self-discipline is appropriate.

 

So you, as a Yorkie (ooh eyye) are totally saying that it is normal for someone who has purchased an airline ticket, received a seat allocation, received a boarding pass, too be then thrown off the aircraft. Am I missing something here, or did you agree with water boarding. The bloke had paid for his seat, do you not see the rules of purchase and delivery, as being the basis of all commercial rules. See basic commerce101. There was something about a sweet company circa 1911 (in Britain) that is quoted in all law courts as to the right of the purchaser. The company used a false security threat and obnoxious behaviour reason which was later proven to be a lie. The man is going to sue and I hope it brings down all those that lied, bullied and inflicted injuries on him

[ballzafire]

Katia,
Ok. Up to now, I have not read anything published in the MSM that said an announcement was made to all passengers. I have flown many times both domestically and internationally and have never once encountered this scenario. I'm sure it did occur on some flights, but was handled diplomatically, so no one on board was aware of it.

Another thing that is odd: don't airport security pack tasers these days? Punching people in the face -- particularly elderly people who are much more susceptible to skull fractures and possible death -- is really quite 'unprofessional'.

Nonetheless, I hope his 'compensation' from the lawsuit allows him to retire early -- and in style... :)

Edited April 15, 2017 by ballzafire

[anon4546543]

1 minute ago, ballzafire said:

Katia,
Ok. Up to now, I had not read anything published in the MSM that said an announcement was made to all passengers. I am flown many times both domestically and internationally and never once encountered this scenario. I'm sure it did occur on some flights, but was handled diplomatically, so no one board was aware of it.

Another thing that is odd: don't airport security pack tasers these days? Punching people in the face -- particularly elderly people who are much more susceptible to skull fractures and possible death -- is really quite 'unprofessional'.

Nonetheless, I hope his 'compensation' from the lawsuit allows him to retire in style... :)

No, it was easier for the thugs to punch this 69 year old man down and out by brave young inhumans than risk a heart attack from taser attack. But why attack him in the first place. They chose an old man to exit the plane, someone who was considered helpless. At least he was not dark skinned, he would have been shot by the ruling thugs in the US. And they would have gotten off.

[Dipterocarp]

Ralph Nader  "United has unbridled discretion to throw you off a plane" due to their 67000 word boilerplate contract of carriage.

 

Internet lawyers say other wise.
 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/40233

 

For non Americans here Ralph Nader is the Attorney, anti-corporate crusader and consumer rights advocate going back to the late 1960s.  His team went to the Supreme Court 45 years ago over flight bumping and eventually won consumers right to compensation 

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Dipterocarp

[oldcarguy]

in my younger days I asked to be put on the "bump" list since it did not matter when I got somewhere ,

 

United could have said $2500 cash and there would have been a rush to give up their seat m United just got cheap,

 

But that being said United has screwed all its Frequent flyer passangers the last 5 years ,  I had 300,000 FF plus miles that I just used up and have not flown United since ,

 

This is just how you get treated anymore flying , maybe not beat up , but not treated as a valued customer that they want to keep,