Can you challenge or appeal the fine imposed under the TM 30 provisions?

[midas]

As far as I understand the immigration Department will only allow the landlord or housemaster to register the TM 30 and if they don’t both the tenant and the landlord can be fined which I regard as being grossly unfair and illogical.

But what I find frustrating is the lack of seriousness by some receptionists and other such people who in my experience are frequently late or even forget to file the report altogether.

An occupant or guest can only do so much to stress to the manager that they must report your arrival to immigration promptly even though there is a serious lack of awareness by many regarding the application of these rules.

But if you can show evidence to the immigration Department that as far as you're concerned  you have done your best every time you change your location to ensure your arrival is reported promptly but they still turn around and fine you because of some mistake omission by the management (which I also understand is 5000 baht +200 baht extra per day that your arrival has failed to be reported on time), can you appeal or challenge this fine? Or indeed what would happen if you refuse to pay the fine because you consider it is unconscionable?  

Edited April 17, 2017 by midas

[ubonjoe]

Whether they can fine the person being reported or not is not clear in the immigration act.

The fine for the report done by way of a TM30 is a maximum of 2,000 baht for an individual and 2,000 to 10,000 baht for a business. The requirement for reporting is under section 38 of the immigration act.

The 5000 baht fine is for not doing a report using a TM28 form under section 37 of the immigration act.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, midas said:

As far as I understand the immigration Department will only allow the landlord or housemaster to register the TM 30

 

How did you arrive at this understanding?

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, midas said:

can you appeal or challenge this fine?

 

The Immigration Act does not lay out a procedure for the appeal of this fine. The logical first step would be to speak to a more senior immigration official or the chief of the immigration office where you are being fined.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, midas said:

what would happen if you refuse to pay the fine because you consider it is unconscionable

 

This is unpredictable.

[BEVUP]

1 hour ago, Maestro said:

 

How did you arrive at this understanding?

Well maybe wrong but my wife has to report me ( being house master not my son as owner )

So ok now you are wandering what if i own a condo - Well ? maybe since you are the owner you can do it yourself

Then you may think what if im staying in a hotel - up to them as they will take a copy of your PP & as a buissiness  must report 

[midas]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

How did you arrive at this understanding?

 

 

I am sure I have read it in this section of the forum a number of times although I would have to go back to look for specific threads

[midas]

1 hour ago, BEVUP said:

Well maybe wrong but my wife has to report me ( being house master not my son as owner )

So ok now you are wandering what if i own a condo - Well ? maybe since you are the owner you can do it yourself

Then you may think what if im staying in a hotel - up to them as they will take a copy of your PP & as a buissiness  must report 

but this is partly the point of my post. I am finding some staff behind the reception desks are just simply not being trained adequately about this or being warned about the consequences of not doing so.

When it was discovered that they had failed to notify about me in one place where I was staying for a week they simply laughed when I told them this was now serious business.

[Maestro]

18 hours ago, midas said:

 

 

I am sure I have read it in this section of the forum a number of times although I would have to go back to look for specific threads

 

In that case, let's start from square one.

 

The English translation of the Immigration Act says that "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager" must submit the notification of the arrival of foreigners at the residence.

Quote

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office
located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

 

The Immigration Act says that for a rented residence, the tenant is the house-master, ie the chief possessor in his capacity as tenant.

Quote

 

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

 

 

The Immigration Act does not use the term "landlord" but a page on the website of the Immigration Bureau uses it, seemingly as a synonym for "owner"

 

With regard to a rented residence there exists some confusion, also among immigration officials, as to who has the legal duty to submit the notification, from whom immigration has the legal right to accept the notification, and whom immigration has the right to fine when none of the parties mentioned in section 38 submits the form. I remember a Thaivisa forum member posting that one official went as far as to say that both the tenant and the owner must submit the TM.30 form.

[Ulic]

All I know is when I lease a condo I consider myself the "house master" I take the lease to

Soi 5 immigration fill in the form drop it off upstairs and get my residence certificate.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy. I did this once and used a photocopy of the certificate for

all four extension of stays in Thailand. All was good.

[Formaleins]

The House Owner / Registered owner / landlord does not need to go. You get a power of attourney and get them to fill it in, you need two witnesses - Immigration does not check anything here.

 

Copy of their ID (landlord) and copy of Blue book, this then allows you, the great courtesy of paying their fine for a late TM30 (1600 Baht) 

[jippytum]

I note you make reference to the condo management being in some way responsible .The Juristic manager of a condo is neither an owner or running a business .Why should they get involved with tm30 or tm28  on behalf of a few lazy owners

[connda]

It's a bit like getting on the Mochit to Chiang Mai bus, and as you approach Uttaradit the BIB stops the bus at a road block.  When they board the bus they cite the driver for not wearing a seat belt, and then they collect the fine from every farang they find on the bus.  That's about the same logic.

 

 

[connda]

13 minutes ago, jippytum said:

I note you make reference to the condo management being in some way responsible .The Juristic manager of a condo is neither an owner or running a business .Why should they get involved with tm30 or tm28  on behalf of a few lazy owners

Look up 'Agency'.  The manager is acting in the legal capacity as an agent of the owner.

[midas]

3 hours ago, connda said:

Look up 'Agency'.  The manager is acting in the legal capacity as an agent of the owner.

Yes that is the law of agency in Australia and the UK but I don't know enough about the Thai legal system to say confidently that it also applies here.

[midas]

16 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

In that case, let's start from square one.

 

The English translation of the Immigration Act says that "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager" must submit the notification of the arrival of foreigners at the residence.

 

The Immigration Act says that for a rented residence, the tenant is the house-master, ie the chief possessor in his capacity as tenant.

 

The Immigration Act does not use the term "landlord" but a page on the website of the Immigration Bureau uses it, seemingly as a synonym for "owner"

 

With regard to a rented residence there exists some confusion, also among immigration officials, as to who has the legal duty to submit the notification, from whom immigration has the legal right to accept the notification, and whom immigration has the right to fine when none of the parties mentioned in section 38 submits the form. I remember a Thaivisa forum member posting that one official went as far as to say that both the tenant and the owner must submit the TM.30 form.

Maybe I'm too cynical but sometimes I can't help feeling the immigration Department deliberately want to keep it all murky.

I mean for example I'm not aware of the immigration Department holding any seminars or briefings for housemaster's and building owners or even giving them anything simple to follow in writing so they have a thorough understanding of their obligations. I mean how many people running accommodation businesses have the time to thoroughly read the immigration act?

Sometimes I'm getting the feeling also that some farangs know more about this subject and are taking it more seriously  than some Thai  accommodation administrators.

And what about this example - one building owner says he only sends a TM 30 report every week on a Monday covering everyone in the building. I thought each person has to be registered within 24 hours of arrival so some people arriving on a Tuesday for example won't be registered with the immigration for 6 days?

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, connda said:

Look up 'Agency'.  The manager is acting in the legal capacity as an agent of the owner.

 

I searched for "Agency" in the Immigration Act and found nothing. All there is, with reference to the notification of the arrival of foreigners at a residence, is house-master, possessor, owner, hotel manager.

[dentonian]

22 hours ago, midas said:

Or indeed what would happen if you refuse to pay the fine because you consider it is unconscionable?  

This has happened, then Immigration declined any further service until the outstanding fine was paid.

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, Formaleins said:

The House Owner / Registered owner / landlord does not need to go. You get a power of attourney and get them to fill it in, you need two witnesses - Immigration does not check anything here.

 

Copy of their ID (landlord) and copy of Blue book, this then allows you, the great courtesy of paying their fine for a late TM30 (1600 Baht) 

 

Obviously, if you obtain a power of attorney to act on another person's behalf in a legal matter, this power of attorney also authorises you to pay any fine on behalf of the person for whom you are acting. Nothing irregular about that.

[evadgib]

Several months ago i noted two of the imm templates in the pinned section related to appeals and were THB 1,900 for applicants to file.

 

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=download

 

I have not checked the fine details.

 

HTH

Edited April 18, 2017 by evadgib
TM11 or 12 refer

[geisha]

It might be a question of laziness . When I arrived at my newly rented condo last year, the office filled in the papers for me and seemed to know exactly what was needed and within 24 hours of my arrival. The only thing I would like   , is to change the delay of 24 hours to 48 hours as it gives you more time to get things done in case someone from the office is absent/ill / on holiday. 

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Several months ago i noted two of the imm templates in the pinned section related to appeals and were THB 1,900 for applicants to file.

The forms there are for denial of entry and a visa being revoked.

There is no form for an appeal for being fined. It would likely have to be done through the administrative courts.

[Billy Bloggs]

This is what happened to me in Chiang Mai last year, I was staying at a condo but my girl friends lease was due to expire(it was in her aunts name who moved away), I agreed to move in once my lease was up, so I signed a lease there from 1st of December I offically moved in on 1st of march when my condo lease ran out, I was aware of reporting rules and my landlord wasnt keen to front immigration so we got a power of attorney from him to be able to submit the TM30.

This is when it got stupid, they said it should have been reported on the first of Dec and I said I was still living at the condo then and I couldnt live at 2 places at once, they asked where I was staying, I had my now ended condo lease with me, they looked up their records and said I was not reported as living there either, I know better than to argue with some people and the long and short paid a 1600 baht fine for the owner. When I renewed the lease this year I got the owner to go see them, they said he didnt have to worry I got the receipt of notification, but they did say if I left the country and came back I had to report, which I did this morning after getting back from Penang and came back to our shop went to immigration and he stamped my receipt saying I had reported.

[overherebc]

I would imagine there's a few ex-squaddies out there who are familiar with the expression 'Barrack Room Lawyer'

There is always one in every unit who will state Queens Reg's ref such and such. All fine and good until he tries it on the section/troop Staff Sergeant, or if stupid enough the RSM.

I reckon the above gets the same result as trying to quote rules and laws to any official.

[Billy Bloggs]

17 hours ago, overherebc said:

I would imagine there's a few ex-squaddies out there who are familiar with the expression 'Barrack Room Lawyer'

There is always one in every unit who will state Queens Reg's ref such and such. All fine and good until he tries it on the section/troop Staff Sergeant, or if stupid enough the RSM.

I reckon the above gets the same result as trying to quote rules and laws to any official.

Which above.

[overherebc]

4 minutes ago, Billy Bloggs said:

Which above.

That wot is rit above lad, yir army above, not yir civvy above coz yir army above is the only one wot applies lad.

[Billy Bloggs]

On 4/21/2017 at 1:38 PM, overherebc said:

That wot is rit above lad, yir army above, not yir civvy above coz yir army above is the only one wot applies lad.

Oh so you found out how to quote, yeah could tell it was army, I wasnt Barrack room anything, I was pointing out my own experience, wasnt saying to try this or not try this. So ya can get ya squaddies to go back to ya barracks, I always enjoyed the each to his own room in the airmens blocks myself.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Billy Bloggs said:

Oh so you found out how to quote, yeah could tell it was army, I wasnt Barrack room anything, I was pointing out my own experience, wasnt saying to try this or not try this. So ya can get ya squaddies to go back to ya barracks, I always enjoyed the each to his own room in the airmens blocks myself.

Obviously we had a better sense of humour.

Forgot to add, I never had 'room' after basic training, more of a house really.

Edited April 22, 2017 by overherebc